F35 - superfighter or lame duck?

[Daryl Hunt]

When the F-15 first came out, it took years to get it ironed out. Many of the same things complained out of the F-15 is now being claimed on the F-35. When the F-16 was first introduced it was nicknamed the "Lawn Dart". The F-15, F-16 and F-22 have all three become staples across the World. The F-22 now has a lower hourly operating cost than the F-15.As they iron out the F-35 with it's maintenance friendly construction it will join the ranks of low operating costs.

 

[Manonthestreet]

When the F-15 first came out, it took years to get it ironed out. Many of the same things complained out of the F-15 is now being claimed on the F-35. When the F-16 was first introduced it was nicknamed the "Lawn Dart". The F-15, F-16 and F-22 have all three become staples across the World. The F-22 now has a lower hourly operating cost than the F-15.As they iron out the F-35 with it's maintenance friendly construction it will join the ranks of low operating costs.

More BS

 

[Manonthestreet]

Oh look hundreds of worthless planes if war erupts
Final F-35 Testing Slips To 2018
WASHINGTON — The military’s top weapons tester has been warning for months that the F-35 will not be ready for its final test phase until 2018 at the earliest. On Tuesday, the Pentagon officially acknowledged the schedule slip.

 

[Daryl Hunt]

Oh look hundreds of worthless planes if war erupts
Final F-35 Testing Slips To 2018
WASHINGTON — The military’s top weapons tester has been warning for months that the F-35 will not be ready for its final test phase until 2018 at the earliest. On Tuesday, the Pentagon officially acknowledged the schedule slip.

Let's look at each version.

The F-35A will complete the 3I mod later on this year and begin testing 3F. Making 2017 the projected production. With the completion of the 3I mod which has slipped the 3F mod completion, it will be ready for production in late 2016 or early 2017.

The F-35B has the 2 mod completed and can drop weapons and fire the Aim-120D and Aim-9X. Not real pretty but it is functional in the role that the Marines want it, replacing the AV-8B. Anything beyond that is just gravy.

F-35C will be the last one to reach maturity. The C will get the mods from both the A and B when they are ready. It will also get some of it's own mods that the other two won't get. I look for 2018 on this bird.

If you make a weapon for the A it probably won't fit the B or the C since they have a shortened bomb bay. These are three completely different Fighters although they do look alike at first glance. You keep lumping them into each other. If you seperated them, you will find that the production times will be completely different.

Right now, the A model is making quite a dent in other countries that get the first ones off the production line. Even with the 3F and 3I not being finished, it still won the flyoff between the F-16 and the best Britain has to offer. Denmark is in love with the F-35A and it's just going to get better.

So you can keep rehashing old outdated and incorrect information but the F-35A seems to make it all a liar.

 

[RubberGloveSeduction]

So you can keep rehashing old outdated and incorrect information but the F-35A seems to make it all a liar.

That is exactly what he appears to be doing. He regurgitates snippets from poor sources that are on the "dump the F-35" bandwagon but doesn't appear to have the knowledge or sources to back them up.

It seems to me the press is starting to round the corner on F-35, and the pilots flying it absolutely love it. Why listen to bloggers who have never even served in the military misconstruing flight tests when you can go right to pilots who actually fly it, like here:

F-35 i nærkamp – hva har jeg lært så langt? (The F-35 in a dogfight – what have I learned so far?) |

That pilot (from Norway) gives a great summary of F-35 performance, scroll down for English version. It refutes much of the BS Manonthestreet is spewing, and the pilot summarizes with: "To sum it up, my experience so far is that the F-35 makes it easier for me to maintain the offensive role, and it provides me more opportunities to effectively employ weapons at my opponent."

 

[RubberGloveSeduction]

Another post from same pilot here: – Vi må tilpasse oss F-35 – ikke omvendt (We need to adapt to the F-35, not the other way around) |

We who fly the F-35 on a daily basis are able to conclude the following: The aircraft is faster, more maneuverable, has more range, can carry a significantly greater payload and gives the pilot a significantly better situational awareness than what we are used to from the F-16. But we are still in the development phase of the F-35 program. It is therefore only natural that the aircraft still has some teething problems, although critics often use this as «evidence» that the aircraft will never work according to its requirements.

 

[RubberGloveSeduction]

In other F-35 related news, Denmark just wrapped up it's competition for a new fighter and chose the F-35. According to their report it wasn't even close.

F-35 Wins Denmark Competition: Trounces Super Hornet, Eurofighter

Conversely, F-35’s newness led to it trouncing its competitors on all other ratings of tactical military value. Its combination of stealth features — to avoid being seen — with advanced sensors and pilot displays — to see better — were cited as carrying the day on survivability and mission effectiveness. The fact that F-35 will be produced in large numbers with regular updates won it the “future development” subcategory.

 

[Daryl Hunt]

So you can keep rehashing old outdated and incorrect information but the F-35A seems to make it all a liar.

That is exactly what he appears to be doing. He regurgitates snippets from poor sources that are on the "dump the F-35" bandwagon but doesn't appear to have the knowledge or sources to back them up.

It seems to me the press is starting to round the corner on F-35, and the pilots flying it absolutely love it. Why listen to bloggers who have never even served in the military misconstruing flight tests when you can go right to pilots who actually fly it, like here:

F-35 i nærkamp – hva har jeg lært så langt? (The F-35 in a dogfight – what have I learned so far?) |

That pilot (from Norway) gives a great summary of F-35 performance, scroll down for English version. It refutes much of the BS Manonthestreet is spewing, and the pilot summarizes with: "To sum it up, my experience so far is that the F-35 makes it easier for me to maintain the offensive role, and it provides me more opportunities to effectively employ weapons at my opponent."

I read today that the Marines are quite satisfied with their F-35B as it is today. The Marine F-35B has taken over the AV-8Bs mission. Here are a couple or three things that the Marine Pilots stated.

1. Less finacky. The F-35B generates a higher generation rate.

2. The rebooting doesn't bother the pilots at all. Yes, you have to reboot twice as much as a F-18 (4 hours v 8 hours; the AV8B can't stay in the air long enough to require a reboot), If the F-35B requires a reboot, it will be at the very last leg of the mission where there is no big threats.

3. The combat range of the F-35B is 800 miles with external tanks. With the mission of the F-35B taking over the AV-8B there isn't a real problem carrying external tanks in the first half of the mission.

4. The Stores with the F-35B is twice that of the AV-8B.

The Marines are chomping at the bit to get the F-35B into the Middle East. It should be a game changer in CAS.

 

[RubberGloveSeduction]

Agreed, and a game changer for the mission profiles an amphib can take on. They go from having a squadron of limited range subsonic attack aircraft to 5th gen fighters that can do air superiority, hit high value targets in strongly defended airspace, perform SEAD, maritime strike, etc.

 

[RubberGloveSeduction]

F-35 only has front aspect stealth.....F-35 will be falling from the sky as SU's shoot down on your low and slow gadget that still cant respond in an alert DRILL.....

The only source I could fine producing numbers to measure stealth on the F-35 is here: Air Combat: Russia’s PAK-FA versus the F-22 and F-35

F-22A Front Aspect = 0.0001 m2, Side and Rear Aspect = 0.01 – 0.001 m2 (0.005 used in this analysis);
F-35A Front Aspect = 0.001 m2, Side and Rear Aspect = 0.01 m2;

For comparison RCS of other fighters is here: Radar Cross Section (RCS)

A conventional fighter aircraft such as an F-4 has an RCS of about six square meters (m2), and the much larger but low-observable B-2 bomber, which incorporates advanced stealth technologies into its design, by some accounts has an RCS of approximately 0.75 m2 [this is four orders of magintude greater than the widely reported -40dBm2 ]. Some reports give the B-2 a head-on radar cross section no larger than a bird, 0.01 m2 or -20dBm2.

Wth a worst case RCS of 0.01 m2 (equal to best case of B-2 stealth bomber and similar to a bird) your claim that F-35 is only front aspect stealth is clearly false. Granted I have no way to verify any of these numbers, but since you're the one making the climb I'd invite you to post RCS data for F-35 that supports your claim. From what I've seen in this thread I expect no source from your forthcoming, you tend to make a claim then have no interest/ability to defend it.

Waiting on you to prove you weren't talking out of your ass...

 

[HenryBHough]

I can't quite comprehend how one superfighter sitting in the shop waiting for a software upgrade is going to do much against a low-tech actually flying aircraft. Maybe hoping to hype it out of the sky?

 

[Daryl Hunt]

I can't quite comprehend how one superfighter sitting in the shop waiting for a software upgrade is going to do much against a low-tech actually flying aircraft. Maybe hoping to hype it out of the sky?

The Marines F-35B is already ready for combat replacing the finacky AV-8Bs mission. The Marines have requested that they be allowed to use the F-35B in the Middle East for CAS which it's damned capable of doing.And the F-35B has the capability of handling networking plus keep the Russians Fighters and Bombers honest.

 

[RubberGloveSeduction]

I can't quite comprehend how one superfighter sitting in the shop waiting for a software upgrade is going to do much against a low-tech actually flying aircraft. Maybe hoping to hype it out of the sky?

Let me understand you here... this plane is supposed to be in our inventory for 40+ years and your brain cannot imagine a scenario where it can do much against a low-tech aircraft because of some software issues in it's first year of deployment?

Either way the software isn't preventing it from flying as the usual spin would have you believe, F-35B has some current limitations due to said software issues but is already a far more capable aircraft than the AV-8B it is replacing.

 

[HenryBHough]

Gloves, what part of "one" do you find so challenging?

Our are you so fiscally irresponsible that you think Obamerica can afford more than one (that's "1").

Yeah, I know, contracts and promises. Like promises of hope. Like promises of change.

 

[Manonthestreet]

F-35 only has front aspect stealth.....F-35 will be falling from the sky as SU's shoot down on your low and slow gadget that still cant respond in an alert DRILL.....

The only source I could fine producing numbers to measure stealth on the F-35 is here: Air Combat: Russia’s PAK-FA versus the F-22 and F-35

F-22A Front Aspect = 0.0001 m2, Side and Rear Aspect = 0.01 – 0.001 m2 (0.005 used in this analysis);
F-35A Front Aspect = 0.001 m2, Side and Rear Aspect = 0.01 m2;

For comparison RCS of other fighters is here: Radar Cross Section (RCS)

A conventional fighter aircraft such as an F-4 has an RCS of about six square meters (m2), and the much larger but low-observable B-2 bomber, which incorporates advanced stealth technologies into its design, by some accounts has an RCS of approximately 0.75 m2 [this is four orders of magintude greater than the widely reported -40dBm2 ]. Some reports give the B-2 a head-on radar cross section no larger than a bird, 0.01 m2 or -20dBm2.

Wth a worst case RCS of 0.01 m2 (equal to best case of B-2 stealth bomber and similar to a bird) your claim that F-35 is only front aspect stealth is clearly false. Granted I have no way to verify any of these numbers, but since you're the one making the climb I'd invite you to post RCS data for F-35 that supports your claim. From what I've seen in this thread I expect no source from your forthcoming, you tend to make a claim then have no interest/ability to defend it.

Waiting on you to prove you weren't talking out of your ass...

Hundreds of posts here go back and read....alrdy been covered

 

[Manonthestreet]

I can't quite comprehend how one superfighter sitting in the shop waiting for a software upgrade is going to do much against a low-tech actually flying aircraft. Maybe hoping to hype it out of the sky?

The Marines F-35B is already ready for combat replacing the finacky AV-8Bs mission. The Marines have requested that they be allowed to use the F-35B in the Middle East for CAS which it's damned capable of doing.And the F-35B has the capability of handling networking plus keep the Russians Fighters and Bombers honest.

just another lie as none of the variants computer is rdy for prime time

 

[RubberGloveSeduction]

Hundreds of posts here go back and read....alrdy been covered

Surprise surprise! Manonthestreet is offered the chance to back up his BS and he punts as usual, instead making vague reference to somewhere in this 60 pag thread. So I guess we'll chalk up the "front aspect stealth only" as false, given the only actual data provided showed otherwise.

 

[there4eyeM]

It still seems that, in the age of incredibly rapid technological change, investing such a vast amount in in just one item is not wise.

 

[Daryl Hunt]

I can't quite comprehend how one superfighter sitting in the shop waiting for a software upgrade is going to do much against a low-tech actually flying aircraft. Maybe hoping to hype it out of the sky?

The Marines F-35B is already ready for combat replacing the finacky AV-8Bs mission. The Marines have requested that they be allowed to use the F-35B in the Middle East for CAS which it's damned capable of doing.And the F-35B has the capability of handling networking plus keep the Russians Fighters and Bombers honest.

just another lie as none of the variants computer is rdy for prime time

Considering the AV-8B doesn't have much of a computer, there is plenty of computer power in the F-35B to handle the mission. Senator McCain, is that you?

 

[Manonthestreet]

But I thought the Marines were rdy for combat.......ooooops...Why not just buy new Hornets
US Marine Corps recovering 'boneyard' Hornets to plug capability gap | IHS Jane's 360
The US Marine Corps (USMC) is having to recover Boeing F/A-18C Hornet combat aircraft from the 'boneyard' at Davis-Monthan Air Force Base (AFB) in Arizona to bridge the delayed introduction into service of the Lockheed Martin F-35B Lightning II Joint Strike Fighter (JSF), a Boeing official said on 10 June.