Explain to us Libs, what is a living wage?

[Foxfyre]

All you'd be doing is denying jobs to sixteen year olds. They would all be filled by people who dont mind "just getting by".
I always had a room mate to defray the cost of rent and electricity. And I sure as hell didnt have a car when I first started out.
You do without for a few years until you can afford a place of your own and a car.
Thats life,and it teaches the value of hard work.

I keep saying the same thing over and over and no-one is hearing me
the liberals are saying we are triying to take something from the poor and the con is saying that paying a person an honest days wage for an honest days work is bad and can be dealt with by hiring a 16 year old?
I am not talking about giving anything to any-one
Nor am I suggesting that we eliminate part time after school programs for minors

who knows what the real answer is
I know this
In this country if you work 40 hours a week and get paid 8.00 an hour, me, the tax payer is going to be sending you some help if you ask for it
so why is it okay for me to pay a higher tax rate so I can give that person monies, when a real wage would allow him/her to earn it
going to cost me the same

First you have to get past the idea that mickyDs is worth a living wage.
It's for retires and kids in highschool that live at home.
Not people who are to damn lazy to put out a little effort and get a real job.

Yep. And if you think your labor is worth more than what an employer is willing or able to pay for it, then find a job where you forego a salary and work on a piecework basis or commission. You give up paid vacations and holidays and sick leave and all those kinds of benefits tha add to the employer's costs and reduce his bottom line, but you can't be underpaid or overpaid and you will earn based on your individual effort. I have worked that way for most of the last 30 years and love it.

 

[DiamondDave]

Since we pay taxes we can advocate for our tax money to help the poor while also giving to charity unlike conservative who want to kill programs that feed poor children.

Um.. no.. that would have to be a specific power listed.. and while it is a power the government has taken upon itself, it did so wrongfully

Funny how you call for it while calling for the raising of taxes on others.. not yourself...

You want to call for it at the state or local level.. knock yourself out

And yes.. I am very much salivating at the chance to break down article 1 section 8 if you dare use the 'welfare' argument without taking the section in full context (leaving off everything after the word 'welfare', which indeed had a different meaning back then)... so go ahead and try

Again... charity is a personal thing.. not something to force upon others in your name

Break it down, and welfare means welfare just as well regulated means well regulated.

No.. idiot.. .welfare only in modern time acquired a definition of entitlement or assistance... nice try

The Congress shall have Power To lay and collect Taxes, Duties, Imposts and Excises,
Pretty simple.. the power to levy taxes of various and specific sorts... income tax power was added in the 16th amendment

to pay the Debts and provide for the common Defence and general Welfare of the United States;
Notice it says "of the United States"... not "of the people"... when the Constitution means "the people", it says "the people".. the United States is the Union of States or the collection of the republics themselves.... then notice the little thing of punctuation at the end... it i s not a period.. it is a semi colon.... why?? Because it shows the continuation of the statement/clause, and the subsequent list of SPECIFIC things that congress is empowered to pay for... it is not a list with an open end.. it is a very specific list.. and subsequently, the 10th amendment shows that anything that is not specifically listed as a power, is then reserved for the states and/or "the people"... this being the firewall.. or the implicit deny statement

but all Duties, Imposts and Excises shall be uniform throughout the United States;
The specific taxes allowed are to be equal across the states.. hence not a different policy for Utah than is in place for Ohio, etc

To borrow money on the credit of the United States;

To regulate Commerce with foreign Nations, and among the several States, and with the Indian Tribes;

To establish an uniform Rule of Naturalization, and uniform Laws on the subject of Bankruptcies throughout the United States;

To coin Money, regulate the Value thereof, and of foreign Coin, and fix the Standard of Weights and Measures;

To provide for the Punishment of counterfeiting the Securities and current Coin of the United States;

To establish Post Offices and Post Roads;

To promote the Progress of Science and useful Arts, by securing for limited Times to Authors and Inventors the exclusive Right to their respective Writings and Discoveries;

To constitute Tribunals inferior to the supreme Court;

To define and punish Piracies and Felonies committed on the high Seas, and Offenses against the Law of Nations;

To declare War, grant Letters of Marque and Reprisal, and make Rules concerning Captures on Land and Water;

To raise and support Armies, but no Appropriation of Money to that Use shall be for a longer Term than two Years;

To provide and maintain a Navy;

To make Rules for the Government and Regulation of the land and naval Forces;

To provide for calling forth the Militia to execute the Laws of the Union, suppress Insurrections and repel Invasions;

To provide for organizing, arming, and disciplining, the Militia, and for governing such Part of them as may be employed in the Service of the United States, reserving to the States respectively, the Appointment of the Officers, and the Authority of training the Militia according to the discipline prescribed by Congress;

To exercise exclusive Legislation in all Cases whatsoever, over such District (not exceeding ten Miles square) as may, by Cession of particular States, and the acceptance of Congress, become the Seat of the Government of the United States, and to exercise like Authority over all Places purchased by the Consent of the Legislature of the State in which the Same shall be, for the Erection of Forts, Magazines, Arsenals, dock-Yards, and other needful Buildings; And

To make all Laws which shall be necessary and proper for carrying into Execution the foregoing Powers, and all other Powers vested by this Constitution in the Government of the United States, or in any Department or Officer thereof.
The list of specific things congress can spend on or have power over.. the list is FINITE.. not INFINITE with limited exception

Also notice the last thing in the list (which does end with a period, ending the clause/statement), it limits the laws to that which can carry out the spending to the powers listed above it and any other powers that are LISTED IN THIS CONSTITUTION.. .not ones that are NOT LISTED.. not all encompassing to anything else...

The purpose of the constitution was to grant very limited and specific powers, but those powers granted were to be over the union as a whole (strong in their specificity)

And because of self governance (of the individual states and of the people) the government of the federal level was not intended to be a catch all... not to be thought of as infinite scope with specific limitations.. to be limited in scope specifically, and all other powers reserved for the states and the people for themselves....

 

[noose4]

Um.. no.. that would have to be a specific power listed.. and while it is a power the government has taken upon itself, it did so wrongfully

Funny how you call for it while calling for the raising of taxes on others.. not yourself...

You want to call for it at the state or local level.. knock yourself out

And yes.. I am very much salivating at the chance to break down article 1 section 8 if you dare use the 'welfare' argument without taking the section in full context (leaving off everything after the word 'welfare', which indeed had a different meaning back then)... so go ahead and try

Again... charity is a personal thing.. not something to force upon others in your name

Break it down, and welfare means welfare just as well regulated means well regulated.

No.. idiot.. .welfare only in modern time acquired a definition of entitlement or assistance... nice try

The Congress shall have Power To lay and collect Taxes, Duties, Imposts and Excises,
Pretty simple.. the power to levy taxes of various and specific sorts... income tax power was added in the 16th amendment

to pay the Debts and provide for the common Defence and general Welfare of the United States;
Notice it says "of the United States"... not "of the people"... when the Constitution means "the people", it says "the people".. the United States is the Union of States or the collection of the republics themselves.... then notice the little thing of punctuation at the end... it i s not a period.. it is a semi colon.... why?? Because it shows the continuation of the statement/clause, and the subsequent list of SPECIFIC things that congress is empowered to pay for... it is not a list with an open end.. it is a very specific list.. and subsequently, the 10th amendment shows that anything that is not specifically listed as a power, is then reserved for the states and/or "the people"... this being the firewall.. or the implicit deny statement

but all Duties, Imposts and Excises shall be uniform throughout the United States;
The specific taxes allowed are to be equal across the states.. hence not a different policy for Utah than is in place for Ohio, etc

To borrow money on the credit of the United States;

To regulate Commerce with foreign Nations, and among the several States, and with the Indian Tribes;

To establish an uniform Rule of Naturalization, and uniform Laws on the subject of Bankruptcies throughout the United States;

To coin Money, regulate the Value thereof, and of foreign Coin, and fix the Standard of Weights and Measures;

To provide for the Punishment of counterfeiting the Securities and current Coin of the United States;

To establish Post Offices and Post Roads;

To promote the Progress of Science and useful Arts, by securing for limited Times to Authors and Inventors the exclusive Right to their respective Writings and Discoveries;

To constitute Tribunals inferior to the supreme Court;

To define and punish Piracies and Felonies committed on the high Seas, and Offenses against the Law of Nations;

To declare War, grant Letters of Marque and Reprisal, and make Rules concerning Captures on Land and Water;

To raise and support Armies, but no Appropriation of Money to that Use shall be for a longer Term than two Years;

To provide and maintain a Navy;

To make Rules for the Government and Regulation of the land and naval Forces;

To provide for calling forth the Militia to execute the Laws of the Union, suppress Insurrections and repel Invasions;

To provide for organizing, arming, and disciplining, the Militia, and for governing such Part of them as may be employed in the Service of the United States, reserving to the States respectively, the Appointment of the Officers, and the Authority of training the Militia according to the discipline prescribed by Congress;

To exercise exclusive Legislation in all Cases whatsoever, over such District (not exceeding ten Miles square) as may, by Cession of particular States, and the acceptance of Congress, become the Seat of the Government of the United States, and to exercise like Authority over all Places purchased by the Consent of the Legislature of the State in which the Same shall be, for the Erection of Forts, Magazines, Arsenals, dock-Yards, and other needful Buildings; And

To make all Laws which shall be necessary and proper for carrying into Execution the foregoing Powers, and all other Powers vested by this Constitution in the Government of the United States, or in any Department or Officer thereof.
The list of specific things congress can spend on or have power over.. the list is FINITE.. not INFINITE with limited exception

Also notice the last thing in the list (which does end with a period, ending the clause/statement), it limits the laws to that which can carry out the spending to the powers listed above it and any other powers that are LISTED IN THIS CONSTITUTION.. .not ones that are NOT LISTED.. not all encompassing to anything else...

The purpose of the constitution was to grant very limited and specific powers, but those powers granted were to be over the union as a whole (strong in their specificity)

And because of self governance (of the individual states and of the people) the government of the federal level was not intended to be a catch all... not to be thought of as infinite scope with specific limitations.. to be limited in scope specifically, and all other powers reserved for the states and the people for themselves....

You ignorant fool, not having people starving in the street promotes the general welfare of a nation, thus welfare programs are perfectly constitutional.

 

[francoHFW]

STILL equivalent of 1968's min wage= $11 now, chumps of the greedy idiot bloated rich....

 

[Foxfyre]

Break it down, and welfare means welfare just as well regulated means well regulated.

No.. idiot.. .welfare only in modern time acquired a definition of entitlement or assistance... nice try

The Congress shall have Power To lay and collect Taxes, Duties, Imposts and Excises,
Pretty simple.. the power to levy taxes of various and specific sorts... income tax power was added in the 16th amendment

to pay the Debts and provide for the common Defence and general Welfare of the United States;
Notice it says "of the United States"... not "of the people"... when the Constitution means "the people", it says "the people".. the United States is the Union of States or the collection of the republics themselves.... then notice the little thing of punctuation at the end... it i s not a period.. it is a semi colon.... why?? Because it shows the continuation of the statement/clause, and the subsequent list of SPECIFIC things that congress is empowered to pay for... it is not a list with an open end.. it is a very specific list.. and subsequently, the 10th amendment shows that anything that is not specifically listed as a power, is then reserved for the states and/or "the people"... this being the firewall.. or the implicit deny statement

but all Duties, Imposts and Excises shall be uniform throughout the United States;
The specific taxes allowed are to be equal across the states.. hence not a different policy for Utah than is in place for Ohio, etc

To borrow money on the credit of the United States;

To regulate Commerce with foreign Nations, and among the several States, and with the Indian Tribes;

To establish an uniform Rule of Naturalization, and uniform Laws on the subject of Bankruptcies throughout the United States;

To coin Money, regulate the Value thereof, and of foreign Coin, and fix the Standard of Weights and Measures;

To provide for the Punishment of counterfeiting the Securities and current Coin of the United States;

To establish Post Offices and Post Roads;

To promote the Progress of Science and useful Arts, by securing for limited Times to Authors and Inventors the exclusive Right to their respective Writings and Discoveries;

To constitute Tribunals inferior to the supreme Court;

To define and punish Piracies and Felonies committed on the high Seas, and Offenses against the Law of Nations;

To declare War, grant Letters of Marque and Reprisal, and make Rules concerning Captures on Land and Water;

To raise and support Armies, but no Appropriation of Money to that Use shall be for a longer Term than two Years;

To provide and maintain a Navy;

To make Rules for the Government and Regulation of the land and naval Forces;

To provide for calling forth the Militia to execute the Laws of the Union, suppress Insurrections and repel Invasions;

To provide for organizing, arming, and disciplining, the Militia, and for governing such Part of them as may be employed in the Service of the United States, reserving to the States respectively, the Appointment of the Officers, and the Authority of training the Militia according to the discipline prescribed by Congress;

To exercise exclusive Legislation in all Cases whatsoever, over such District (not exceeding ten Miles square) as may, by Cession of particular States, and the acceptance of Congress, become the Seat of the Government of the United States, and to exercise like Authority over all Places purchased by the Consent of the Legislature of the State in which the Same shall be, for the Erection of Forts, Magazines, Arsenals, dock-Yards, and other needful Buildings; And

To make all Laws which shall be necessary and proper for carrying into Execution the foregoing Powers, and all other Powers vested by this Constitution in the Government of the United States, or in any Department or Officer thereof.
The list of specific things congress can spend on or have power over.. the list is FINITE.. not INFINITE with limited exception

Also notice the last thing in the list (which does end with a period, ending the clause/statement), it limits the laws to that which can carry out the spending to the powers listed above it and any other powers that are LISTED IN THIS CONSTITUTION.. .not ones that are NOT LISTED.. not all encompassing to anything else...

The purpose of the constitution was to grant very limited and specific powers, but those powers granted were to be over the union as a whole (strong in their specificity)

And because of self governance (of the individual states and of the people) the government of the federal level was not intended to be a catch all... not to be thought of as infinite scope with specific limitations.. to be limited in scope specifically, and all other powers reserved for the states and the people for themselves....

You ignorant fool, not having people starving in the street promotes the general welfare of a nation, thus welfare programs are perfectly constitutional.

When I see somebody starving in the street, I feed him. But tell me how it benefits anybody other than the person being fed when I do that. How does it benefit anybody other than the person being fed if I hold you up at gunpoint or via threat of fine or imprisonment force YOU to feed him?

 

[DiamondDave]

Break it down, and welfare means welfare just as well regulated means well regulated.

No.. idiot.. .welfare only in modern time acquired a definition of entitlement or assistance... nice try

The Congress shall have Power To lay and collect Taxes, Duties, Imposts and Excises,
Pretty simple.. the power to levy taxes of various and specific sorts... income tax power was added in the 16th amendment

to pay the Debts and provide for the common Defence and general Welfare of the United States;
Notice it says "of the United States"... not "of the people"... when the Constitution means "the people", it says "the people".. the United States is the Union of States or the collection of the republics themselves.... then notice the little thing of punctuation at the end... it i s not a period.. it is a semi colon.... why?? Because it shows the continuation of the statement/clause, and the subsequent list of SPECIFIC things that congress is empowered to pay for... it is not a list with an open end.. it is a very specific list.. and subsequently, the 10th amendment shows that anything that is not specifically listed as a power, is then reserved for the states and/or "the people"... this being the firewall.. or the implicit deny statement

but all Duties, Imposts and Excises shall be uniform throughout the United States;
The specific taxes allowed are to be equal across the states.. hence not a different policy for Utah than is in place for Ohio, etc

To borrow money on the credit of the United States;

To regulate Commerce with foreign Nations, and among the several States, and with the Indian Tribes;

To establish an uniform Rule of Naturalization, and uniform Laws on the subject of Bankruptcies throughout the United States;

To coin Money, regulate the Value thereof, and of foreign Coin, and fix the Standard of Weights and Measures;

To provide for the Punishment of counterfeiting the Securities and current Coin of the United States;

To establish Post Offices and Post Roads;

To promote the Progress of Science and useful Arts, by securing for limited Times to Authors and Inventors the exclusive Right to their respective Writings and Discoveries;

To constitute Tribunals inferior to the supreme Court;

To define and punish Piracies and Felonies committed on the high Seas, and Offenses against the Law of Nations;

To declare War, grant Letters of Marque and Reprisal, and make Rules concerning Captures on Land and Water;

To raise and support Armies, but no Appropriation of Money to that Use shall be for a longer Term than two Years;

To provide and maintain a Navy;

To make Rules for the Government and Regulation of the land and naval Forces;

To provide for calling forth the Militia to execute the Laws of the Union, suppress Insurrections and repel Invasions;

To provide for organizing, arming, and disciplining, the Militia, and for governing such Part of them as may be employed in the Service of the United States, reserving to the States respectively, the Appointment of the Officers, and the Authority of training the Militia according to the discipline prescribed by Congress;

To exercise exclusive Legislation in all Cases whatsoever, over such District (not exceeding ten Miles square) as may, by Cession of particular States, and the acceptance of Congress, become the Seat of the Government of the United States, and to exercise like Authority over all Places purchased by the Consent of the Legislature of the State in which the Same shall be, for the Erection of Forts, Magazines, Arsenals, dock-Yards, and other needful Buildings; And

To make all Laws which shall be necessary and proper for carrying into Execution the foregoing Powers, and all other Powers vested by this Constitution in the Government of the United States, or in any Department or Officer thereof.
The list of specific things congress can spend on or have power over.. the list is FINITE.. not INFINITE with limited exception

Also notice the last thing in the list (which does end with a period, ending the clause/statement), it limits the laws to that which can carry out the spending to the powers listed above it and any other powers that are LISTED IN THIS CONSTITUTION.. .not ones that are NOT LISTED.. not all encompassing to anything else...

The purpose of the constitution was to grant very limited and specific powers, but those powers granted were to be over the union as a whole (strong in their specificity)

And because of self governance (of the individual states and of the people) the government of the federal level was not intended to be a catch all... not to be thought of as infinite scope with specific limitations.. to be limited in scope specifically, and all other powers reserved for the states and the people for themselves....

You ignorant fool, not having people starving in the street promotes the general welfare of a nation, thus welfare programs are perfectly constitutional.

No.. you ignoramus

You are ADDING to it... those programs are not specifically listed.. and the Union as a whole is not the same as the needs of individuals.. once again, for your ignorance is great, when the constitution meant "the people" it stated "the people".. they were VERY specific and deliberate in their wording

And to go to your extreme.. having someone 'starving in the street' does not hinder the running of the government.. it hinders the individuals well being...

Your upkeep and your well being and your perception of what you think you 'need' is a personal thing.. now.. your state constitution or local laws can take it upon themselves to have programs, as long as those governments give themselves that specific power thru the process of their constitutions.. or you, since the power is given to both he state and 'the people' by the federal constitution, have the power to give of yourself to help those you wish to help.. whether it be a starving person or a person who had their house burn down or a person who wants help affording education

 

[JRK]

Um.. no.. that would have to be a specific power listed.. and while it is a power the government has taken upon itself, it did so wrongfully

Funny how you call for it while calling for the raising of taxes on others.. not yourself...

You want to call for it at the state or local level.. knock yourself out

And yes.. I am very much salivating at the chance to break down article 1 section 8 if you dare use the 'welfare' argument without taking the section in full context (leaving off everything after the word 'welfare', which indeed had a different meaning back then)... so go ahead and try

Again... charity is a personal thing.. not something to force upon others in your name

Break it down, and welfare means welfare just as well regulated means well regulated.

No.. idiot.. .welfare only in modern time acquired a definition of entitlement or assistance... nice try

The Congress shall have Power To lay and collect Taxes, Duties, Imposts and Excises,
Pretty simple.. the power to levy taxes of various and specific sorts... income tax power was added in the 16th amendment

to pay the Debts and provide for the common Defence and general Welfare of the United States;
Notice it says "of the United States"... not "of the people"... when the Constitution means "the people", it says "the people".. the United States is the Union of States or the collection of the republics themselves.... then notice the little thing of punctuation at the end... it i s not a period.. it is a semi colon.... why?? Because it shows the continuation of the statement/clause, and the subsequent list of SPECIFIC things that congress is empowered to pay for... it is not a list with an open end.. it is a very specific list.. and subsequently, the 10th amendment shows that anything that is not specifically listed as a power, is then reserved for the states and/or "the people"... this being the firewall.. or the implicit deny statement

but all Duties, Imposts and Excises shall be uniform throughout the United States;
The specific taxes allowed are to be equal across the states.. hence not a different policy for Utah than is in place for Ohio, etc

To borrow money on the credit of the United States;

To regulate Commerce with foreign Nations, and among the several States, and with the Indian Tribes;

To establish an uniform Rule of Naturalization, and uniform Laws on the subject of Bankruptcies throughout the United States;

To coin Money, regulate the Value thereof, and of foreign Coin, and fix the Standard of Weights and Measures;

To provide for the Punishment of counterfeiting the Securities and current Coin of the United States;

To establish Post Offices and Post Roads;

To promote the Progress of Science and useful Arts, by securing for limited Times to Authors and Inventors the exclusive Right to their respective Writings and Discoveries;

To constitute Tribunals inferior to the supreme Court;

To define and punish Piracies and Felonies committed on the high Seas, and Offenses against the Law of Nations;

To declare War, grant Letters of Marque and Reprisal, and make Rules concerning Captures on Land and Water;

To raise and support Armies, but no Appropriation of Money to that Use shall be for a longer Term than two Years;

To provide and maintain a Navy;

To make Rules for the Government and Regulation of the land and naval Forces;

To provide for calling forth the Militia to execute the Laws of the Union, suppress Insurrections and repel Invasions;

To provide for organizing, arming, and disciplining, the Militia, and for governing such Part of them as may be employed in the Service of the United States, reserving to the States respectively, the Appointment of the Officers, and the Authority of training the Militia according to the discipline prescribed by Congress;

To exercise exclusive Legislation in all Cases whatsoever, over such District (not exceeding ten Miles square) as may, by Cession of particular States, and the acceptance of Congress, become the Seat of the Government of the United States, and to exercise like Authority over all Places purchased by the Consent of the Legislature of the State in which the Same shall be, for the Erection of Forts, Magazines, Arsenals, dock-Yards, and other needful Buildings; And

To make all Laws which shall be necessary and proper for carrying into Execution the foregoing Powers, and all other Powers vested by this Constitution in the Government of the United States, or in any Department or Officer thereof.
The list of specific things congress can spend on or have power over.. the list is FINITE.. not INFINITE with limited exception

Also notice the last thing in the list (which does end with a period, ending the clause/statement), it limits the laws to that which can carry out the spending to the powers listed above it and any other powers that are LISTED IN THIS CONSTITUTION.. .not ones that are NOT LISTED.. not all encompassing to anything else...

The purpose of the constitution was to grant very limited and specific powers, but those powers granted were to be over the union as a whole (strong in their specificity)

And because of self governance (of the individual states and of the people) the government of the federal level was not intended to be a catch all... not to be thought of as infinite scope with specific limitations.. to be limited in scope specifically, and all other powers reserved for the states and the people for themselves....

the size of govt has went far beyond its intent
with that stated setting a wage minimum for those over the age of 21 (or 18) became an event that in my opinion became law at its present state by the reps for the people on 7/4/2009
The liberals have made claim this is there way of showing they care
I began this debate showing that if they really care it should be about 13.5 an hour with tax credits given to those who fall under this legeslation to include a complete overhaul of the welfare/medicade programs when this event took place
we would save 10s of billions, maybe 100s of billion in "entitlement" programs as well as add the same in tax revenue
Jobs would be created

Again
working for wealth is a much better event than getting partial wealth free and that partial wealth be Augmented with govt subsidies
we the tax payer/consumer pays for both
I would rather be paying for those to earn it

 

[DiamondDave]

Break it down, and welfare means welfare just as well regulated means well regulated.

No.. idiot.. .welfare only in modern time acquired a definition of entitlement or assistance... nice try

The Congress shall have Power To lay and collect Taxes, Duties, Imposts and Excises,
Pretty simple.. the power to levy taxes of various and specific sorts... income tax power was added in the 16th amendment

to pay the Debts and provide for the common Defence and general Welfare of the United States;
Notice it says "of the United States"... not "of the people"... when the Constitution means "the people", it says "the people".. the United States is the Union of States or the collection of the republics themselves.... then notice the little thing of punctuation at the end... it i s not a period.. it is a semi colon.... why?? Because it shows the continuation of the statement/clause, and the subsequent list of SPECIFIC things that congress is empowered to pay for... it is not a list with an open end.. it is a very specific list.. and subsequently, the 10th amendment shows that anything that is not specifically listed as a power, is then reserved for the states and/or "the people"... this being the firewall.. or the implicit deny statement

but all Duties, Imposts and Excises shall be uniform throughout the United States;
The specific taxes allowed are to be equal across the states.. hence not a different policy for Utah than is in place for Ohio, etc

To borrow money on the credit of the United States;

To regulate Commerce with foreign Nations, and among the several States, and with the Indian Tribes;

To establish an uniform Rule of Naturalization, and uniform Laws on the subject of Bankruptcies throughout the United States;

To coin Money, regulate the Value thereof, and of foreign Coin, and fix the Standard of Weights and Measures;

To provide for the Punishment of counterfeiting the Securities and current Coin of the United States;

To establish Post Offices and Post Roads;

To promote the Progress of Science and useful Arts, by securing for limited Times to Authors and Inventors the exclusive Right to their respective Writings and Discoveries;

To constitute Tribunals inferior to the supreme Court;

To define and punish Piracies and Felonies committed on the high Seas, and Offenses against the Law of Nations;

To declare War, grant Letters of Marque and Reprisal, and make Rules concerning Captures on Land and Water;

To raise and support Armies, but no Appropriation of Money to that Use shall be for a longer Term than two Years;

To provide and maintain a Navy;

To make Rules for the Government and Regulation of the land and naval Forces;

To provide for calling forth the Militia to execute the Laws of the Union, suppress Insurrections and repel Invasions;

To provide for organizing, arming, and disciplining, the Militia, and for governing such Part of them as may be employed in the Service of the United States, reserving to the States respectively, the Appointment of the Officers, and the Authority of training the Militia according to the discipline prescribed by Congress;

To exercise exclusive Legislation in all Cases whatsoever, over such District (not exceeding ten Miles square) as may, by Cession of particular States, and the acceptance of Congress, become the Seat of the Government of the United States, and to exercise like Authority over all Places purchased by the Consent of the Legislature of the State in which the Same shall be, for the Erection of Forts, Magazines, Arsenals, dock-Yards, and other needful Buildings; And

To make all Laws which shall be necessary and proper for carrying into Execution the foregoing Powers, and all other Powers vested by this Constitution in the Government of the United States, or in any Department or Officer thereof.
The list of specific things congress can spend on or have power over.. the list is FINITE.. not INFINITE with limited exception

Also notice the last thing in the list (which does end with a period, ending the clause/statement), it limits the laws to that which can carry out the spending to the powers listed above it and any other powers that are LISTED IN THIS CONSTITUTION.. .not ones that are NOT LISTED.. not all encompassing to anything else...

The purpose of the constitution was to grant very limited and specific powers, but those powers granted were to be over the union as a whole (strong in their specificity)

And because of self governance (of the individual states and of the people) the government of the federal level was not intended to be a catch all... not to be thought of as infinite scope with specific limitations.. to be limited in scope specifically, and all other powers reserved for the states and the people for themselves....

the size of govt has went far beyond its intent
with that stated setting a wage minimum for those over the age of 21 (or 18) became an event that in my opinion became law at its present state by the reps for the people on 7/4/2009
The liberals have made claim this is there way of showing they care
I began this debate showing that if they really care it should be about 13.5 an hour with tax credits given to those who fall under this legeslation to include a complete overhaul of the welfare/medicade programs when this event took place
we would save 10s of billions, maybe 100s of billion in "entitlement" programs as well as add the same in tax revenue
Jobs would be created

Again
working for wealth is a much better event than getting partial wealth free and that partial wealth be Augmented with govt subsidies
we the tax payer/consumer pays for both
I would rather be paying for those to earn it

So someone flipping burgers at 16 is to receive less than someone doing the same job at age 22?? Nope.. sorry... no dice.. that does not even pass the smell test

They need more to support a family.. do something to deserve more or demand more.. or work more hours..

And you know my stance on subsidies.. they should not be handed out on the federal level in the first place

 

[squeeze berry]

Break it down, and welfare means welfare just as well regulated means well regulated.

No.. idiot.. .welfare only in modern time acquired a definition of entitlement or assistance... nice try

The Congress shall have Power To lay and collect Taxes, Duties, Imposts and Excises,
Pretty simple.. the power to levy taxes of various and specific sorts... income tax power was added in the 16th amendment

to pay the Debts and provide for the common Defence and general Welfare of the United States;
Notice it says "of the United States"... not "of the people"... when the Constitution means "the people", it says "the people".. the United States is the Union of States or the collection of the republics themselves.... then notice the little thing of punctuation at the end... it i s not a period.. it is a semi colon.... why?? Because it shows the continuation of the statement/clause, and the subsequent list of SPECIFIC things that congress is empowered to pay for... it is not a list with an open end.. it is a very specific list.. and subsequently, the 10th amendment shows that anything that is not specifically listed as a power, is then reserved for the states and/or "the people"... this being the firewall.. or the implicit deny statement

but all Duties, Imposts and Excises shall be uniform throughout the United States;
The specific taxes allowed are to be equal across the states.. hence not a different policy for Utah than is in place for Ohio, etc

To borrow money on the credit of the United States;

To regulate Commerce with foreign Nations, and among the several States, and with the Indian Tribes;

To establish an uniform Rule of Naturalization, and uniform Laws on the subject of Bankruptcies throughout the United States;

To coin Money, regulate the Value thereof, and of foreign Coin, and fix the Standard of Weights and Measures;

To provide for the Punishment of counterfeiting the Securities and current Coin of the United States;

To establish Post Offices and Post Roads;

To promote the Progress of Science and useful Arts, by securing for limited Times to Authors and Inventors the exclusive Right to their respective Writings and Discoveries;

To constitute Tribunals inferior to the supreme Court;

To define and punish Piracies and Felonies committed on the high Seas, and Offenses against the Law of Nations;

To declare War, grant Letters of Marque and Reprisal, and make Rules concerning Captures on Land and Water;

To raise and support Armies, but no Appropriation of Money to that Use shall be for a longer Term than two Years;

To provide and maintain a Navy;

To make Rules for the Government and Regulation of the land and naval Forces;

To provide for calling forth the Militia to execute the Laws of the Union, suppress Insurrections and repel Invasions;

To provide for organizing, arming, and disciplining, the Militia, and for governing such Part of them as may be employed in the Service of the United States, reserving to the States respectively, the Appointment of the Officers, and the Authority of training the Militia according to the discipline prescribed by Congress;

To exercise exclusive Legislation in all Cases whatsoever, over such District (not exceeding ten Miles square) as may, by Cession of particular States, and the acceptance of Congress, become the Seat of the Government of the United States, and to exercise like Authority over all Places purchased by the Consent of the Legislature of the State in which the Same shall be, for the Erection of Forts, Magazines, Arsenals, dock-Yards, and other needful Buildings; And

To make all Laws which shall be necessary and proper for carrying into Execution the foregoing Powers, and all other Powers vested by this Constitution in the Government of the United States, or in any Department or Officer thereof.
The list of specific things congress can spend on or have power over.. the list is FINITE.. not INFINITE with limited exception

Also notice the last thing in the list (which does end with a period, ending the clause/statement), it limits the laws to that which can carry out the spending to the powers listed above it and any other powers that are LISTED IN THIS CONSTITUTION.. .not ones that are NOT LISTED.. not all encompassing to anything else...

The purpose of the constitution was to grant very limited and specific powers, but those powers granted were to be over the union as a whole (strong in their specificity)

And because of self governance (of the individual states and of the people) the government of the federal level was not intended to be a catch all... not to be thought of as infinite scope with specific limitations.. to be limited in scope specifically, and all other powers reserved for the states and the people for themselves....

You ignorant fool, not having people starving in the street promotes the general welfare of a nation, thus welfare programs are perfectly constitutional.

most of the welfare recipients I know of are overweight

 

[Foxfyre]

I was just reading where several U.S. cities are petitioning Congress to make it illegal to use food stamps to buy sugared soft drinks. It is already illegal to use food stamps for cigarettes or alcohol and a few other items. Like that stops anybody. Those getting food stamps just use their own money for cigarettes and alcohol because they have the food stamps to buy what they want to eat.

(Yes, I KNOW some really NEED those food stamps for food and use them only for that. But we all know--or at least anybody with a brain knows--that many or most receiving food stamps are also buying non essentials.

How about the government just distributing enough beans and rice and powdered milk to needy families. That ensures nobody will starve. If they want cigarettes and beer and porter house steaks, they need to figure out how to work their way out of poverty.

 

[DiamondDave]

I was just reading where several U.S. cities are petitioning Congress to make it illegal to use food stamps to buy sugared soft drinks. It is already illegal to use food stamps for cigarettes or alcohol and a few other items. Like that stops anybody. Those getting food stamps just use their own money for cigarettes and alcohol because they have the food stamps to buy what they want to eat.

(Yes, I KNOW some really NEED those food stamps for food and use them only for that. But we all know--or at least anybody with a brain knows--that many or most receiving food stamps are also buying non essentials.

How about the government just distributing enough beans and rice and powdered milk to needy families. That ensures nobody will starve. If they want cigarettes and beer and porter house steaks, they need to figure out how to work their way out of poverty.

They want or need beans, rice and powdered milk.... do like I did and join the military where we ate plenty of that... otherwise, just like a money handout to individuals, the federal government has no business handing out other things to individuals...

But as stated... if the STATE or LOCAL GOVERNMENT or INDIVIDUALS wish to use their power to do these handouts, entitlements.. go thru their governing processes and do it.... at that point I may disagree with the concept of these safety hammocks, but there, at least, is where the power to do such things lays

 

[zeke]

I really would like to hear from the libs on this:

I gotta ask. Do any of you liberals work for minimum wage right now?
Because it sure sounds like it.
If you're not you would know that it's not forever. In fact it usually only last for about 6 months if that.
So why are you so dead set on making a living wage for a starter job?
When you yourself worked for it,and I presume you've progressed past it.

Anybody......?

Oh dude, there is a really BIG difference in your standard of living when you move up to 8.50 an hour. Is that what you are trying to say?

As to working for minimum wage. Only once, when I was 16. However, there were so many jobs back then and far fewer people looking for work, so raises came faster.

Now days, minimum wage jobs and those jobs that pay barely above minimum wage are much more common and seem to be where the job growth is happening.

As to making a living wage. If your kind don't mind that minimum wage workers qualify for food stamps and other benes, I don't mind that they only earn minimum wage. Seems fair to me. That way your precious companies don't have to increase their payroll expense and people working for low wages get to eat.

You don't mind if poor people eat. Do you?

With your first sentence I knew this was going to be bullshit.
So you stop trying after your first raise? Wow you're a real go getter !!!!
First of all,anyone who goes to work at a fast food joint shouldn't expect to much advancement unless they are willing to bust ass and become a manager.
I've never worked in a fast food joint because even at 16 I knew it was a dead end job.
People make choices in life,some make poor ones. Why the hell should I be responsible for that?
Anyone who puts in some effort can make 15 bucks an hour in short order. Which isn't much but it seems like the magic number around here.

I will say that with the influx of illegals the jobs that payed a decent wage like carpentry,concrete work and service jobs are harder to come by these days.
But thats a whole nother thread.

Yea and with your first sentence, I knew that I wouldn't know what the fuk you were talking about. I re read my post. Still didn't mention working fast food. You think the fast food industry is the only industry paying minimum wage? You be wrong if that's what you think.

But you or davy, go ahead and share the whereabouts of all these fine, good paying jobs that these slacker minimum wage folks can apply for.

Where are those good paying jobs for high school semi educated young adults today. Hell where are those good paying jobs for the college graduate of today? Come on, don't hold back. Where's the jobs?

As to you being responsible for others. I sure as hell didn't ask you to be responsible for anyone. But you do seem willing to allow companies to pay such low wages that theworkers can qualify for government assistance. Who you think is paying that bill?
You and I get lower prices because the companies pay low wages.

Ok I understand that. But don't begrudge the low wage worker some benes themselves.
They already don't make much money. Have much education or have a great deal of opportunity.

People with money can pay for low wage people to eat by paying higher product prices or through our taxes. But poor people are gonna eat. Or riot someday.

And finally why would the talk about illegals in building trades be for another thread. Building trades used to be where a man could make a decent living if they didn't want to do factory work. Now even those jobs are paying less. In some areas, much less.

Seems I must know to many good people with low wage jobs. I have a little empathy for the struggles they have.

But the magic hourly wage number to live is 18 dollare an hour and you need to work at least 40 hours. Thats just two nine dollar an hour jobsfor poor people.

And the minimum income for food stamps should be 6 thousand dollars a year. Make more than that, no food stamps.

Sound fair to you?

 

[francoHFW]

You can only buy food with food stamps NOW. Welfare recipients who are not disabled work at min wagef for cash too.

Yup, Dave, two hundred years of judgements and law mean nothing now that HS grads Rush and Beck are in charge. Pfffft!!

 

[DiamondDave]

Oh dude, there is a really BIG difference in your standard of living when you move up to 8.50 an hour. Is that what you are trying to say?

As to working for minimum wage. Only once, when I was 16. However, there were so many jobs back then and far fewer people looking for work, so raises came faster.

Now days, minimum wage jobs and those jobs that pay barely above minimum wage are much more common and seem to be where the job growth is happening.

As to making a living wage. If your kind don't mind that minimum wage workers qualify for food stamps and other benes, I don't mind that they only earn minimum wage. Seems fair to me. That way your precious companies don't have to increase their payroll expense and people working for low wages get to eat.

You don't mind if poor people eat. Do you?

With your first sentence I knew this was going to be bullshit.
So you stop trying after your first raise? Wow you're a real go getter !!!!
First of all,anyone who goes to work at a fast food joint shouldn't expect to much advancement unless they are willing to bust ass and become a manager.
I've never worked in a fast food joint because even at 16 I knew it was a dead end job.
People make choices in life,some make poor ones. Why the hell should I be responsible for that?
Anyone who puts in some effort can make 15 bucks an hour in short order. Which isn't much but it seems like the magic number around here.

I will say that with the influx of illegals the jobs that payed a decent wage like carpentry,concrete work and service jobs are harder to come by these days.
But thats a whole nother thread.

Yea and with your first sentence, I knew that I wouldn't know what the fuk you were talking about. I re read my post. Still didn't mention working fast food. You think the fast food industry is the only industry paying minimum wage? You be wrong if that's what you think.

But you or davy, go ahead and share the whereabouts of all these fine, good paying jobs that these slacker minimum wage folks can apply for.

Where are those good paying jobs for high school semi educated young adults today. Hell where are those good paying jobs for the college graduate of today? Come on, don't hold back. Where's the jobs?

As to you being responsible for others. I sure as hell didn't ask you to be responsible for anyone. But you do seem willing to allow companies to pay such low wages that theworkers can qualify for government assistance. Who you think is paying that bill?
You and I get lower prices because the companies pay low wages.

Ok I understand that. But don't begrudge the low wage worker some benes themselves.
They already don't make much money. Have much education or have a great deal of opportunity.

People with money can pay for low wage people to eat by paying higher product prices or through our taxes. But poor people are gonna eat. Or riot someday.

And finally why would the talk about illegals in building trades be for another thread. Building trades used to be where a man could make a decent living if they didn't want to do factory work. Now even those jobs are paying less. In some areas, much less.

Seems I must know to many good people with low wage jobs. I have a little empathy for the struggles they have.

But the magic hourly wage number to live is 18 dollare an hour and you need to work at least 40 hours. Thats just two nine dollar an hour jobsfor poor people.

And the minimum income for food stamps should be 6 thousand dollars a year. Make more than that, no food stamps.

Sound fair to you?

You have the right to a good paying job WHERE??? You think jobs are going to appear when there is more government spending and handouts, which requires more taxation, which requires more money taken out of the economy?? And people CAN work there way up after high school, because MANY HAVE. Unfortunately, many think more is owed to them and think that they should not have to work 40, 60, 80, 100 hours a week and that they should not be responsible for advancing their skills themselves

When you have the freedom to work anywhere you choose, to succeed or fail all on your own.. you also have the freedom to compete as a business owner all on your own... if you choose to pay lower than CompanyX, if it works, fine, if it does not fine.. but you do not get to dictate that the company must pay you more than your worth... if you don't bring 18 an hour worth of value to a company, then why the hell should they be forced to pay you 18 an hour??

Cut the assistance all together.. .and make people take responsibility for their own place in life.. if they want more, work for more, aspire for more, make the effort to make yourself more in demand, advance skills more, etc....

 

[francoHFW]

Sorry, courts have ruled that's illegal, Mr.Sean Rushbeck. Same with rice and beans. But thanks for the depression, fear mongering, and obstruction, hater dupe.

 

[HereWeGoAgain]

Oh dude, there is a really BIG difference in your standard of living when you move up to 8.50 an hour. Is that what you are trying to say?

As to working for minimum wage. Only once, when I was 16. However, there were so many jobs back then and far fewer people looking for work, so raises came faster.

Now days, minimum wage jobs and those jobs that pay barely above minimum wage are much more common and seem to be where the job growth is happening.

As to making a living wage. If your kind don't mind that minimum wage workers qualify for food stamps and other benes, I don't mind that they only earn minimum wage. Seems fair to me. That way your precious companies don't have to increase their payroll expense and people working for low wages get to eat.

You don't mind if poor people eat. Do you?

With your first sentence I knew this was going to be bullshit.
So you stop trying after your first raise? Wow you're a real go getter !!!!
First of all,anyone who goes to work at a fast food joint shouldn't expect to much advancement unless they are willing to bust ass and become a manager.
I've never worked in a fast food joint because even at 16 I knew it was a dead end job.
People make choices in life,some make poor ones. Why the hell should I be responsible for that?
Anyone who puts in some effort can make 15 bucks an hour in short order. Which isn't much but it seems like the magic number around here.

I will say that with the influx of illegals the jobs that payed a decent wage like carpentry,concrete work and service jobs are harder to come by these days.
But thats a whole nother thread.

Yea and with your first sentence, I knew that I wouldn't know what the fuk you were talking about. I re read my post. Still didn't mention working fast food. You think the fast food industry is the only industry paying minimum wage? You be wrong if that's what you think.

But you or davy, go ahead and share the whereabouts of all these fine, good paying jobs that these slacker minimum wage folks can apply for.

Where are those good paying jobs for high school semi educated young adults today. Hell where are those good paying jobs for the college graduate of today? Come on, don't hold back. Where's the jobs?

As to you being responsible for others. I sure as hell didn't ask you to be responsible for anyone. But you do seem willing to allow companies to pay such low wages that theworkers can qualify for government assistance. Who you think is paying that bill?
You and I get lower prices because the companies pay low wages.

Ok I understand that. But don't begrudge the low wage worker some benes themselves.
They already don't make much money. Have much education or have a great deal of opportunity.

People with money can pay for low wage people to eat by paying higher product prices or through our taxes. But poor people are gonna eat. Or riot someday.

And finally why would the talk about illegals in building trades be for another thread. Building trades used to be where a man could make a decent living if they didn't want to do factory work. Now even those jobs are paying less. In some areas, much less.

Seems I must know to many good people with low wage jobs. I have a little empathy for the struggles they have.

But the magic hourly wage number to live is 18 dollare an hour and you need to work at least 40 hours. Thats just two nine dollar an hour jobsfor poor people.

And the minimum income for food stamps should be 6 thousand dollars a year. Make more than that, no food stamps.

Sound fair to you?

First I really dont care what industry it is,fast food,checker at the grocery store,it doesn't matter.

And you can ask obama were all the jobs are. But I can promise you 10 million or so will no longer be available to American citizens.
And the reason you cant make any money in construction is because illegals have pretty much made that impossible. And you can say that about a lot of jobs.

And if all a couple needs is 9 bucks an hour a piece....thats not to far from min wage.
Work for a year and you can get that.

 

[noose4]

No.. idiot.. .welfare only in modern time acquired a definition of entitlement or assistance... nice try

The Congress shall have Power To lay and collect Taxes, Duties, Imposts and Excises,
Pretty simple.. the power to levy taxes of various and specific sorts... income tax power was added in the 16th amendment

to pay the Debts and provide for the common Defence and general Welfare of the United States;
Notice it says "of the United States"... not "of the people"... when the Constitution means "the people", it says "the people".. the United States is the Union of States or the collection of the republics themselves.... then notice the little thing of punctuation at the end... it i s not a period.. it is a semi colon.... why?? Because it shows the continuation of the statement/clause, and the subsequent list of SPECIFIC things that congress is empowered to pay for... it is not a list with an open end.. it is a very specific list.. and subsequently, the 10th amendment shows that anything that is not specifically listed as a power, is then reserved for the states and/or "the people"... this being the firewall.. or the implicit deny statement

but all Duties, Imposts and Excises shall be uniform throughout the United States;
The specific taxes allowed are to be equal across the states.. hence not a different policy for Utah than is in place for Ohio, etc

To borrow money on the credit of the United States;

To regulate Commerce with foreign Nations, and among the several States, and with the Indian Tribes;

To establish an uniform Rule of Naturalization, and uniform Laws on the subject of Bankruptcies throughout the United States;

To coin Money, regulate the Value thereof, and of foreign Coin, and fix the Standard of Weights and Measures;

To provide for the Punishment of counterfeiting the Securities and current Coin of the United States;

To establish Post Offices and Post Roads;

To promote the Progress of Science and useful Arts, by securing for limited Times to Authors and Inventors the exclusive Right to their respective Writings and Discoveries;

To constitute Tribunals inferior to the supreme Court;

To define and punish Piracies and Felonies committed on the high Seas, and Offenses against the Law of Nations;

To declare War, grant Letters of Marque and Reprisal, and make Rules concerning Captures on Land and Water;

To raise and support Armies, but no Appropriation of Money to that Use shall be for a longer Term than two Years;

To provide and maintain a Navy;

To make Rules for the Government and Regulation of the land and naval Forces;

To provide for calling forth the Militia to execute the Laws of the Union, suppress Insurrections and repel Invasions;

To provide for organizing, arming, and disciplining, the Militia, and for governing such Part of them as may be employed in the Service of the United States, reserving to the States respectively, the Appointment of the Officers, and the Authority of training the Militia according to the discipline prescribed by Congress;

To exercise exclusive Legislation in all Cases whatsoever, over such District (not exceeding ten Miles square) as may, by Cession of particular States, and the acceptance of Congress, become the Seat of the Government of the United States, and to exercise like Authority over all Places purchased by the Consent of the Legislature of the State in which the Same shall be, for the Erection of Forts, Magazines, Arsenals, dock-Yards, and other needful Buildings; And

To make all Laws which shall be necessary and proper for carrying into Execution the foregoing Powers, and all other Powers vested by this Constitution in the Government of the United States, or in any Department or Officer thereof.
The list of specific things congress can spend on or have power over.. the list is FINITE.. not INFINITE with limited exception

Also notice the last thing in the list (which does end with a period, ending the clause/statement), it limits the laws to that which can carry out the spending to the powers listed above it and any other powers that are LISTED IN THIS CONSTITUTION.. .not ones that are NOT LISTED.. not all encompassing to anything else...

The purpose of the constitution was to grant very limited and specific powers, but those powers granted were to be over the union as a whole (strong in their specificity)

And because of self governance (of the individual states and of the people) the government of the federal level was not intended to be a catch all... not to be thought of as infinite scope with specific limitations.. to be limited in scope specifically, and all other powers reserved for the states and the people for themselves....

You ignorant fool, not having people starving in the street promotes the general welfare of a nation, thus welfare programs are perfectly constitutional.

When I see somebody starving in the street, I feed him. But tell me how it benefits anybody other than the person being fed when I do that. How does it benefit anybody other than the person being fed if I hold you up at gunpoint or via threat of fine or imprisonment force YOU to feed him?

You really need to ask how not having people starving in the streets benefits a society?

 

[Foxfyre]

I was just reading where several U.S. cities are petitioning Congress to make it illegal to use food stamps to buy sugared soft drinks. It is already illegal to use food stamps for cigarettes or alcohol and a few other items. Like that stops anybody. Those getting food stamps just use their own money for cigarettes and alcohol because they have the food stamps to buy what they want to eat.

(Yes, I KNOW some really NEED those food stamps for food and use them only for that. But we all know--or at least anybody with a brain knows--that many or most receiving food stamps are also buying non essentials.

How about the government just distributing enough beans and rice and powdered milk to needy families. That ensures nobody will starve. If they want cigarettes and beer and porter house steaks, they need to figure out how to work their way out of poverty.

They want or need beans, rice and powdered milk.... do like I did and join the military where we ate plenty of that... otherwise, just like a money handout to individuals, the federal government has no business handing out other things to individuals...

But as stated... if the STATE or LOCAL GOVERNMENT or INDIVIDUALS wish to use their power to do these handouts, entitlements.. go thru their governing processes and do it.... at that point I may disagree with the concept of these safety hammocks, but there, at least, is where the power to do such things lays

I agree. The function of the federal government should never be to distribute benevolence to any individual, group, demographic, or entity when the same benevolence isn't distributed to all. When you give government ability to pick winners and losers, you give government the ability to take whatever it wants from anybody.

BUT. . . .if we MUST go along with the majority will to ensure that the hungry are fed, well, those sacks of beans and rice and powdered milk would feed them well. We could even throw in a bottle of multi vitamin tablets with the monthly allotment. Give em all they can possibly use and make it a felony to sell or barter it; also to trade for and/or buy it from anybody.

The truly hungry will be well fed. The rest will probably get bored with the diet pretty quickly and we can gently suggest again that if you want potato chips and soft drinks and ribeyes, get a job and buy them.

 

[noose4]

No.. idiot.. .welfare only in modern time acquired a definition of entitlement or assistance... nice try

The Congress shall have Power To lay and collect Taxes, Duties, Imposts and Excises,
Pretty simple.. the power to levy taxes of various and specific sorts... income tax power was added in the 16th amendment

to pay the Debts and provide for the common Defence and general Welfare of the United States;
Notice it says "of the United States"... not "of the people"... when the Constitution means "the people", it says "the people".. the United States is the Union of States or the collection of the republics themselves.... then notice the little thing of punctuation at the end... it i s not a period.. it is a semi colon.... why?? Because it shows the continuation of the statement/clause, and the subsequent list of SPECIFIC things that congress is empowered to pay for... it is not a list with an open end.. it is a very specific list.. and subsequently, the 10th amendment shows that anything that is not specifically listed as a power, is then reserved for the states and/or "the people"... this being the firewall.. or the implicit deny statement

but all Duties, Imposts and Excises shall be uniform throughout the United States;
The specific taxes allowed are to be equal across the states.. hence not a different policy for Utah than is in place for Ohio, etc

To borrow money on the credit of the United States;

To regulate Commerce with foreign Nations, and among the several States, and with the Indian Tribes;

To establish an uniform Rule of Naturalization, and uniform Laws on the subject of Bankruptcies throughout the United States;

To coin Money, regulate the Value thereof, and of foreign Coin, and fix the Standard of Weights and Measures;

To provide for the Punishment of counterfeiting the Securities and current Coin of the United States;

To establish Post Offices and Post Roads;

To promote the Progress of Science and useful Arts, by securing for limited Times to Authors and Inventors the exclusive Right to their respective Writings and Discoveries;

To constitute Tribunals inferior to the supreme Court;

To define and punish Piracies and Felonies committed on the high Seas, and Offenses against the Law of Nations;

To declare War, grant Letters of Marque and Reprisal, and make Rules concerning Captures on Land and Water;

To raise and support Armies, but no Appropriation of Money to that Use shall be for a longer Term than two Years;

To provide and maintain a Navy;

To make Rules for the Government and Regulation of the land and naval Forces;

To provide for calling forth the Militia to execute the Laws of the Union, suppress Insurrections and repel Invasions;

To provide for organizing, arming, and disciplining, the Militia, and for governing such Part of them as may be employed in the Service of the United States, reserving to the States respectively, the Appointment of the Officers, and the Authority of training the Militia according to the discipline prescribed by Congress;

To exercise exclusive Legislation in all Cases whatsoever, over such District (not exceeding ten Miles square) as may, by Cession of particular States, and the acceptance of Congress, become the Seat of the Government of the United States, and to exercise like Authority over all Places purchased by the Consent of the Legislature of the State in which the Same shall be, for the Erection of Forts, Magazines, Arsenals, dock-Yards, and other needful Buildings; And

To make all Laws which shall be necessary and proper for carrying into Execution the foregoing Powers, and all other Powers vested by this Constitution in the Government of the United States, or in any Department or Officer thereof.
The list of specific things congress can spend on or have power over.. the list is FINITE.. not INFINITE with limited exception

Also notice the last thing in the list (which does end with a period, ending the clause/statement), it limits the laws to that which can carry out the spending to the powers listed above it and any other powers that are LISTED IN THIS CONSTITUTION.. .not ones that are NOT LISTED.. not all encompassing to anything else...

The purpose of the constitution was to grant very limited and specific powers, but those powers granted were to be over the union as a whole (strong in their specificity)

And because of self governance (of the individual states and of the people) the government of the federal level was not intended to be a catch all... not to be thought of as infinite scope with specific limitations.. to be limited in scope specifically, and all other powers reserved for the states and the people for themselves....

You ignorant fool, not having people starving in the street promotes the general welfare of a nation, thus welfare programs are perfectly constitutional.

No.. you ignoramus

You are ADDING to it... those programs are not specifically listed.. and the Union as a whole is not the same as the needs of individuals.. once again, for your ignorance is great, when the constitution meant "the people" it stated "the people".. they were VERY specific and deliberate in their wording

And to go to your extreme.. having someone 'starving in the street' does not hinder the running of the government.. it hinders the individuals well being...

Your upkeep and your well being and your perception of what you think you 'need' is a personal thing.. now.. your state constitution or local laws can take it upon themselves to have programs, as long as those governments give themselves that specific power thru the process of their constitutions.. or you, since the power is given to both he state and 'the people' by the federal constitution, have the power to give of yourself to help those you wish to help.. whether it be a starving person or a person who had their house burn down or a person who wants help affording education

Only a brain dead moron would think that a society can not grow in over 200 years and yes people starving in the streets can hinder a government, many governments have been overthrow due to such.

 

[OODA_Loop]

You really need to ask how not having people starving in the streets benefits a society?

There are people starving in the streets ?