Expand The US War In Syria Or Get Out: What Say You?...

[2aguy]

Looks like Trump just announced a new massive bombing campaign in Syria. Do you agree or disagree with his decision?

I disagree.....simply punish the monster if he uses prohibited weapons, then let them settle the rest themselves.

 

[TheOldSchool]

There is absolutely nothing worth America fighting and/or dying for in the Middle East.

Actually there is. As distasteful as it is to consider the oil, OPEC's estimate is that 81.5% of the world oil reserves are controlled by OPEC countries: Algeria, Indonesia, Iran, Iraq, Kuwait, Libya, Nigeria, Qatar, Saudi Arabia, the United Arab Emirates and Venezuela. If we go with OPEC's numbers, 65.5% of OPEC oil reserves are in the Middle East. Middle East oil producing countries that are not in OPEC include: Iran, Syria, Bahrain, Oman, and Yeman.

According to GEO ExPro (geoscience magazine): "With only 2% of the world’s producing wells, the Middle East’s output is over 30% of the world’s crude, highlighting its prolific fields. In addition, the Middle East holds 40% of the world’s conventional gas reserves."
How Much Oil in the Middle East?

And like it or not, much of the world runs on oil at this point in our history.

For that oil to fall into the hands of ISIS or some unsavory authority could literally hold much of the world hostage and could do irreparable harm to many countries. We are getting a little over 1 million barrels a day from the Middle East--we import a little over 10 million barrels daily in various forms from 80 some countries--and most of the M.E. oil is processed into petroleum products shipped back to the Middle East, so that in itself wouldn't cripple us, and would hurt but wouldn't be devastating to our economy.

But if our trading partners should be brought to their knees or should be coerced into not being our trading partners, that would be quite significant.

It is in the U.S. national interest for thugs and thieves not to overrun the Middle East. Whether that translates into justification for going to war against Syria, however, is above my pay grade. My gut feeling is no, let the free Arab countries deal with Syria, but. . .

See there’s the problem. We have to remain involved in the Middle East in order to stop the evil groups that we created as a result of us deciding to remain involved in the Middle East. That cycle needs to break.

I agree the cycle needs to break but I don't agree that we created it any more than we created The Third Reich or a cruel imperial Japan or the U.S.S.R. or Mao Tse-tung's Republic of China. Without the influence from the west, it is anybody's guess what the Middle East would be today. Certainly there were positive and negative results of western influence in other parts of Africa but for good or bad, most of those countries prospered more under European influence than they have under control of self-serving and often evil despots/dictators and/or anarchy.

Most of those countries were doing absolutely fine before “western influence” (known in those countries as oppressive colonialism).

You ask what the Middle East would look like wihout our involvement? Who knows, since we’ve never tried that. You think Khomeini could have used nationalism and populism to fuel the rise of his tyranny without saying the West and foreigners were taking advantage of his country with a puppet government?

 

[Dschrute3]

He inherited Obama's Regime Change agenda in Syria. That's just fact. It is Obama's mess. And Obama did inherit Bush's Iraq debacle. That's just fact too.

Getting involved in the Middle East is always a mistake, just as under Obama. Deciding to get involved in Syria in any capacity was the worst mistake of Obama’s Presidency. But to equate it with Iraq, where thousands of our troops were sent to their deaths for absolutely nothing, is wrong. There are no troops to pull out of Syria. No mandate to rebuild anything. All we have to do is just mind our own business. No further involvement.

I hear ya. And i think Trump was headed towards withdrawal. But then a 'Chemical Attack' suddenly happens. What can he do now? It's pretty much a Lose-Lose scenario for him at this point. He'll be damned if he does, damned if he doesn't. It's the same position Obama was in with Iraq and Afghanistan. He ended up choosing to stay and continue the wars. Looks like Trump is gonna do the same. It's very sad.

Obama, like Trump now, kept the Afghanistan war going for God knows what reason. But he ended the Iraq war which was years and years overdue. He did not invade Syria.

I will give Trump props if he says there’s nothing for the U.S. to gain from any further activity in Syria, the ships are turning around to places they’re actually needed, and we’re outta there. Not going to happen though, of course.

Unfortunately, Obama didn't end any wars. He spoke of withdrawal in Iraq, but it didn't happen. Troop levels were reduced, but then came ISIS. He increased troop levels and continued war there. The same happened in Afghanistan.

And now, Trump starts talking withdrawal in Syria, we immediately get a 'Chemical Attack.' Something always conveniently happens to guarantee us staying in these countries. It's actually become predictable now. I just don't think Trump can fight the 'Regime Change' Agenda. Killing Assad has been planned for years. They're not gonna stop until it's done. I don't think Trump has a say in it. That's how i feel anyway.

The assads should have been killed years ago-----so true

Nah, i can't support the 'Regime Change' policy. It's unwise and unjust. We do have international norms and laws. Demanding the removal (Killing) of a foreign leader, is illegal. The US/West had no right to declare Regime Change in Syria.

 

[TheOldSchool]

Unfortunately, Obama didn't end any wars. He spoke of withdrawal in Iraq, but it didn't happen. Troop levels were reduced, but then came ISIS. He increased troop levels and continued war there.

No, you need to stop right there. Troops fighting in Syria were not even a tiny fraction of what he pulled out of Iraq.

 

[irosie91]

Getting involved in the Middle East is always a mistake, just as under Obama. Deciding to get involved in Syria in any capacity was the worst mistake of Obama’s Presidency. But to equate it with Iraq, where thousands of our troops were sent to their deaths for absolutely nothing, is wrong. There are no troops to pull out of Syria. No mandate to rebuild anything. All we have to do is just mind our own business. No further involvement.

I hear ya. And i think Trump was headed towards withdrawal. But then a 'Chemical Attack' suddenly happens. What can he do now? It's pretty much a Lose-Lose scenario for him at this point. He'll be damned if he does, damned if he doesn't. It's the same position Obama was in with Iraq and Afghanistan. He ended up choosing to stay and continue the wars. Looks like Trump is gonna do the same. It's very sad.

Obama, like Trump now, kept the Afghanistan war going for God knows what reason. But he ended the Iraq war which was years and years overdue. He did not invade Syria.

I will give Trump props if he says there’s nothing for the U.S. to gain from any further activity in Syria, the ships are turning around to places they’re actually needed, and we’re outta there. Not going to happen though, of course.

Unfortunately, Obama didn't end any wars. He spoke of withdrawal in Iraq, but it didn't happen. Troop levels were reduced, but then came ISIS. He increased troop levels and continued war there. The same happened in Afghanistan.

And now, Trump starts talking withdrawal in Syria, we immediately get a 'Chemical Attack.' Something always conveniently happens to guarantee us staying in these countries. It's actually become predictable now. I just don't think Trump can fight the 'Regime Change' Agenda. Killing Assad has been planned for years. They're not gonna stop until it's done. I don't think Trump has a say in it. That's how i feel anyway.

The assads should have been killed years ago-----so true

Nah, i can't support the 'Regime Change' policy. It's unwise and unjust. We do have international norms and laws. Demanding the removal (Killing) of a foreign leader, is illegal. The US/West had no right to declare Regime Change in Syria.

I can. I would have supported the "regime change" of Pol Pot
too--------and the regime change of BINNY LADEN

 

[irosie91]

Unfortunately, Obama didn't end any wars. He spoke of withdrawal in Iraq, but it didn't happen. Troop levels were reduced, but then came ISIS. He increased troop levels and continued war there.

No, you need to stop right there. Troops fighting in Syria were not even a tiny fraction of what he pulled out of Iraq.

true------Obama did pull------but he, CERTAINLY, did not
invent ISIS

 

[Tehon]

There is absolutely nothing worth America fighting and/or dying for in the Middle East.

I tend to go with you on that.

And BluesLegend scoffed when I said Trump was going to lead you all into the far left camp.

Look at you now. Following our cut-and-run Democratic President like a little mouse!

Well actually, Obama got us into the Syria mess. He funded & armed Jihadi fighters (Rebels) in Syria. He sought 'Regime Change.' And i don't support the Regime Change policy. I disagreed with Obama dragging us into the Syrian War. We had no right declaring Regime Change.

So Trump inherited Obama's Syria mess, just like Obama inherited Bush's Iraq mess. For me, i think It's time for us to dramatically scale back our presence in the Middle East. It's time to come home. Get out of Syria now. We don't belong there.

The only thing Trump inherited from Obama with regards to Syria was an easily reversible policy.

What it is now is his making.

"Easily reversed." You sure about that? The Regime Policy in Syria is fully supported by most US Politicians. Withdrawing from Syria, would actually be the most difficult thing for Trump to do. There's nothing easy about the mess he inherited in Syria.

Obama implemented his policy without congressional approval, nothing stopping Trump from reversing it.

Trump is every bit the subversive that Obama was so stop kidding yourself.

 

[Foxfyre]

There is absolutely nothing worth America fighting and/or dying for in the Middle East.

Actually there is. As distasteful as it is to consider the oil, OPEC's estimate is that 81.5% of the world oil reserves are controlled by OPEC countries: Algeria, Indonesia, Iran, Iraq, Kuwait, Libya, Nigeria, Qatar, Saudi Arabia, the United Arab Emirates and Venezuela. If we go with OPEC's numbers, 65.5% of OPEC oil reserves are in the Middle East. Middle East oil producing countries that are not in OPEC include: Iran, Syria, Bahrain, Oman, and Yeman.

According to GEO ExPro (geoscience magazine): "With only 2% of the world’s producing wells, the Middle East’s output is over 30% of the world’s crude, highlighting its prolific fields. In addition, the Middle East holds 40% of the world’s conventional gas reserves."
How Much Oil in the Middle East?

And like it or not, much of the world runs on oil at this point in our history.

For that oil to fall into the hands of ISIS or some unsavory authority could literally hold much of the world hostage and could do irreparable harm to many countries. We are getting a little over 1 million barrels a day from the Middle East--we import a little over 10 million barrels daily in various forms from 80 some countries--and most of the M.E. oil is processed into petroleum products shipped back to the Middle East, so that in itself wouldn't cripple us, and would hurt but wouldn't be devastating to our economy.

But if our trading partners should be brought to their knees or should be coerced into not being our trading partners, that would be quite significant.

It is in the U.S. national interest for thugs and thieves not to overrun the Middle East. Whether that translates into justification for going to war against Syria, however, is above my pay grade. My gut feeling is no, let the free Arab countries deal with Syria, but. . .

See there’s the problem. We have to remain involved in the Middle East in order to stop the evil groups that we created as a result of us deciding to remain involved in the Middle East. That cycle needs to break.

I agree the cycle needs to break but I don't agree that we created it any more than we created The Third Reich or a cruel imperial Japan or the U.S.S.R. or Mao Tse-tung's Republic of China. Without the influence from the west, it is anybody's guess what the Middle East would be today. Certainly there were positive and negative results of western influence in other parts of Africa but for good or bad, most of those countries prospered more under European influence than they have under control of self-serving and often evil despots/dictators and/or anarchy.

Most of those countries were doing absolutely fine before “western influence” (known in those countries as oppressive colonialism).

You ask what the Middle East would look like wihout our involvement? Who knows, since we’ve never tried that. You think Khomeini could have used nationalism and populism to fuel the rise of his tyranny without saying the West and foreigners were taking advantage of his country with a puppet government?

At the time they were colonized? Maybe. Who knows for sure how they would have evolved if they had been left alone? I believe Iran has never been colonized, however.

Colonized by Spain, France, England, Mexico, Russia, we wrested or bought our freedom from those nations and became the greatest, richest, most powerful as well as the most free and most generous nation the Earth has ever known. Much/most of the land the USA colonized has become various U.S. states and all others were granted their autonomy willingly and without bloodshed except for Guam and Puerto Rico who CHOOSE to remain U.S. colonies. Likewise, Canada, Australia, Israel, the Phillippines, et al, once colonies, have done quite well on their own.

Hawaii is an enigma in that we did take it without permission or assent by the people and/or leadership. It is quite likely that had the USA not taken control there, Hawaii would now be part of Japan or some other aggressive imperialistic country at that time. So right or wrong? Tough call. Would the Hawaiians now vote to secede from the USA? Highly unlikely.

Mexico is a tossup. Would it be better off under Spanish rule or as a sovereign country. Who knows? Several other countries never colonized are now dictatorships or have joined the free world prosperity. Colonization seems to have little bearing on what a nation will eventually become.

Ethiopia and Liberia I believe are the only African countries that have never been colonized. Both are way down on the global list and the African continent list in human rights and economic prosperity/liberty.

Bringing this back to the OP, what happens if we leave Syria to its own devices? Does Russia control it? Iran? Or ISIS? Does it matter? And before we decide on an answer, we really do need to think about it.

 

[irosie91]

From "old school"
***Most of those countries were doing absolutely fine before “western influence” (known in those countries as oppressive colonialism).****

try to define your terms, oldie. Please DEFINE "western influence" The term is not new to me because I have been
exposed to "eastern" propaganda for more than 50 years from
people who define themselves as 'east'-----or, at least "non western" from the limits of west Africa all the way to the limits of DA PHILLPINES and china and Japan----VIRTUALLY the whole world is a MESS because of "WESTERN INFLUENCE". I did "history of western civ" as a requirement in college----depicted as being rooted in Greece, Mesopotamia, Egypt and Italy----and on to MERRY OLD ENGLAND---and eastern Europe and western asia.
Even India got pulled into the mix. . In speaking to
people from all over the globe----THE WEST is boiled down to
THE EVIL USA PLEASE DEFINE WESTERN, oldie--
---DEFINE YOUR TERMS according to your concept of world
history and OPPRESSION OF THE VICTIMS.
Also-----A CHALLENGE----name those PRE-WESTERN
nirvanas to which you refer-------at least five

 

[Doc1]

I've been saying for weeks this was coming. I've been saying for weeks that the powers that be are playing 3D Chess nd the American populace can only see a checker game. All of this investigation shit, all the Stormy Daniels shit has been nothing but a distraction as they moved the pieces into play.

 

[OldLady]

There is absolutely nothing worth America fighting and/or dying for in the Middle East.

I tend to go with you on that.

And BluesLegend scoffed when I said Trump was going to lead you all into the far left camp.

Look at you now. Following our cut-and-run Democratic President like a little mouse!

True, but on this at least Trump seems to be doing what he said he'd do. That is NOT the case on taxes, deficits, soc sec/medicare and healthcare, where he's actually governed contrary to what he said he'd do when running.

I don't like his position, but he's running into bad headwinds of the past 16 years.

Just don't forget to say Trump gave birth to whatever evil comes from cutting and running from Syria.

If ISIS is out, and Assad is there to prevent a power vacuum, what evil (that hasn't always existed in that messed up situation over in the Middle East) do you think will befall from "cutting and running?"

 

[OldLady]

Should never have gone into Syria...dumb ruling class loves war.

We supplied air support to beat back ISIS. That is where they had a good part of their territory. ISIS is for real. If they hadn't been stopped, we'd be looking at a Nazi-type take over right now. They were that organized and talented, at the start.
So I disagree with that. I don't know why the President decided to step up the number of troops in an "advisory" role, but it's still a small number. Easy to say see ya. And there are going to be peace talks with the major players beginning soon. Let them sort it out from here on out. I think it's time we got out. It is not our business to choose Syria's leader.

 

[irosie91]

There is absolutely nothing worth America fighting and/or dying for in the Middle East.

I tend to go with you on that.

And BluesLegend scoffed when I said Trump was going to lead you all into the far left camp.

Look at you now. Following our cut-and-run Democratic President like a little mouse!

True, but on this at least Trump seems to be doing what he said he'd do. That is NOT the case on taxes, deficits, soc sec/medicare and healthcare, where he's actually governed contrary to what he said he'd do when running.

I don't like his position, but he's running into bad headwinds of the past 16 years.

Just don't forget to say Trump gave birth to whatever evil comes from cutting and running from Syria.

If ISIS is out, and Assad is there to prevent a power vacuum, what evil (that hasn't always existed in that messed up situation over in the Middle East) do you think will befall from "cutting and running?"

No one is "OUT" ------Russia is IN, Iran is IN, Turkey is to the North, Assad is IN, Baathism is IN, Caliphatism is IN. The
AXIS
is IN

 

[irosie91]

Should never have gone into Syria...dumb ruling class loves war.

We supplied air support to beat back ISIS. That is where they had a good part of their territory. ISIS is for real. If they hadn't been stopped, we'd be looking at a Nazi-type take over right now. They were that organized and talented, at the start.
So I disagree with that. I don't know why the President decided to step up the number of troops in an "advisory" role, but it's still a small number. Easy to say see ya. And there are going to be peace talks with the major players beginning soon. Let them sort it out from here on out. I think it's time we got out. It is not our business to choose Syria's leader.

the NAZI takeover in Syria HAPPENED in 1971 It
was a BANNER year for lots of atrocities----including the
GENOCIDE IN EAST BENGAL----the WIND DOWN of the
MASSIVE GENOCIDE IN BIAFRA and -----just preceded
the filth of the "cultural revolution in Iran The Baathist dog,
Saddam was already deep in blood

 

[Indeependent]

Bomb Syria into total deadness.

 

[irosie91]

Bomb Syria into total deadness.

That's what Jonah said--------then the gourd died-

now playing THE INVASION
OF
*** THE GREAT PUMPKIN ****

 

[Indeependent]

Bomb Syria into total deadness.

That's what Jonah said--------then the gourd died-

now playing THE INVASION
OF
*** THE GREAT PUMPKIN ****

Actually not.

 

[OldLady]

I tend to go with you on that.

And BluesLegend scoffed when I said Trump was going to lead you all into the far left camp.

Look at you now. Following our cut-and-run Democratic President like a little mouse!

True, but on this at least Trump seems to be doing what he said he'd do. That is NOT the case on taxes, deficits, soc sec/medicare and healthcare, where he's actually governed contrary to what he said he'd do when running.

I don't like his position, but he's running into bad headwinds of the past 16 years.

Just don't forget to say Trump gave birth to whatever evil comes from cutting and running from Syria.

If ISIS is out, and Assad is there to prevent a power vacuum, what evil (that hasn't always existed in that messed up situation over in the Middle East) do you think will befall from "cutting and running?"

No one is "OUT" ------Russia is IN, Iran is IN, Turkey is to the North, Assad is IN, Baathism is IN, Caliphatism is IN. The
AXIS
is IN

I am asking this in perfect innocence, Rosie: Why does that matter to us?

 

[OldLady]

Should never have gone into Syria...dumb ruling class loves war.

We supplied air support to beat back ISIS. That is where they had a good part of their territory. ISIS is for real. If they hadn't been stopped, we'd be looking at a Nazi-type take over right now. They were that organized and talented, at the start.
So I disagree with that. I don't know why the President decided to step up the number of troops in an "advisory" role, but it's still a small number. Easy to say see ya. And there are going to be peace talks with the major players beginning soon. Let them sort it out from here on out. I think it's time we got out. It is not our business to choose Syria's leader.

the NAZI takeover in Syria HAPPENED in 1971 It
was a BANNER year for lots of atrocities----including the
GENOCIDE IN EAST BENGAL----the WIND DOWN of the
MASSIVE GENOCIDE IN BIAFRA and -----just preceded
the filth of the "cultural revolution in Iran The Baathist dog,
Saddam was already deep in blood

Rosie, you have forgotten more about Middle East politics than I ever knew. I don't even wish to try. Are you saying the U.S. needs to get rid of Assad? Just to keep Russia or Iran from being its ally? Why?

 

[Indeependent]

Should never have gone into Syria...dumb ruling class loves war.

We supplied air support to beat back ISIS. That is where they had a good part of their territory. ISIS is for real. If they hadn't been stopped, we'd be looking at a Nazi-type take over right now. They were that organized and talented, at the start.
So I disagree with that. I don't know why the President decided to step up the number of troops in an "advisory" role, but it's still a small number. Easy to say see ya. And there are going to be peace talks with the major players beginning soon. Let them sort it out from here on out. I think it's time we got out. It is not our business to choose Syria's leader.

the NAZI takeover in Syria HAPPENED in 1971 It
was a BANNER year for lots of atrocities----including the
GENOCIDE IN EAST BENGAL----the WIND DOWN of the
MASSIVE GENOCIDE IN BIAFRA and -----just preceded
the filth of the "cultural revolution in Iran The Baathist dog,
Saddam was already deep in blood

Rosie, you have forgotten more about Middle East politics than I ever knew. I don't even wish to try. Are you saying the U.S. needs to get rid of Assad? Just to keep Russia or Iran from being its ally? Why?

Liberate Lebanon back to the paradise it was prior to 1982?