Even whites living in poverty are privileged

[JimBowie1958]

My dear Asclepijas:

If "White privilege/racism is the primary cause historically, directly, and indirectly for any self defeating behavior in the communities of brown and black people," then why did this behavior lie dormant until the advent of the Great Society in the 1960's? Prior to that time, illegitimacy rates between Negroes and "whites" were approximately the same.

And BTW, I'm not denying the existence of "white privilege" or of pervasive racism at various times and places in our history. I'm only making the point that people who behave in a grossly self-destructive way will get no sympathy blaming their problems on others.

"I may be fat, ugly, and lazy, but that guy refused to hire me because I'm Irish!"

Doesn't exactly inspire sympathy, does it?

There is nothing wrong with being fat and ugly.

*sniff*

 

[Asclepias]

Blacks have has affirmative action for 50 years. THEY are the ones who "have no excuses for being poor."

Whites had affirmative action for 300 plus years. Stop whining. If you were able to build a legacy for your family with a 300 plus year head start you shouldn't be worried about anything.

I wasn't whining. I just said that because blacks have had this extra advantage, and have this relatively easier path to a job, this makes them have no excuse for being poor. You're black and unemployed ? You got AA. Go out and get a job, or you got no excuse.

This has nothing to do with what whites did for 300 years, and there is no "head start", or whatever other spins you want to throw into this, or try to hide behind.

You were definitely whining. Blacks dont have a advantage even if there was no racism. AA benefits white women more than anyone else. Look it up. Therefore whites still have the advantage. Once again I destroy your inane attempts at logic. You are not on my level. Stop trying and give it a rest.

 

[Asclepias]

We don't have to disprove a theory, we didn't claim. You claimed it exists, and yet have not proven it. Our information contradicts your non-proof of claim. Our information doesn't prove anything, except your proof is boogus.

The burden of proof is on you, not us.

The evidence was sited in the article that apparently no one read. White privilege is well documented empirically as well as historically.

Black people are also holding each other down by continuously telling eaach other they cant succeed in white America. Life does not have an even playing field. Its damn well that way in nature and society. Societies that try to create Level playing fields often end up with something horiffic like Cambodia or Zimbabwe. America is a big place and there are so many good people its too bad there are so many who can not see that so many of them are white as well. If there is rotten fruit in your basket, dont complain, be thankful you got some fruit and eat the good ones.

I grant you that. Where I grew up the excuse I heard from some of the brightest people I knew consisted of that sentiment. I knew drug dealers that were so intelligent and business savvy but they quit fighting and turned to crime because of racism.

My point is that racism is an extra burden that Blacks have to shoulder to get ahead. Having never experienced it, most whites cannot even hope to understand the effects. Thats why I give credit to those whites that actually attempt to exercise their intellect and understand cause and effect.

 

[Asclepias]

Clean and dress up a poverty stricken white person and there is nothing holding them back. They have no excuses for being poor.

The same goes for poor black people.

No the same doesnt go for Black people. They still send a visual signal that they are Black. A white person can blend in.

 

[Asclepias]

Well, I am not a millionaire, though half way there. No, I take that back, I do have over a million in assets in total. Hmm, weird, I honestly had not thought about it. But then again, half of it is my wifes, but you wouldn't believe I am married and have two kids either, lol.

Anyway, I have worked for two yuppy millionaires who did the whole McMansion and BMW thing, one relative who was a millionaire banker, dead now, but he owned several hundred acres of ranch land and a few hundred head of cattle, wore a suit at work and overalls with holes and cowboy boots at home. I worked directly for the owner of a pet food company who went to work in sweat pants most days. Another who is a friend of mine has owned his own company for about twenty years now; employ roster of just one, himself. Another who married a dear friend of mine, and he owns his own yacht and sails the Bahamas all the time and he drives a beat up old truck and wears old worn clothes when away from work. I met a janitor at a school I once went to that had well over several million in stocks.

It is easy to be a millionaire if you work hard, save money and do this for the 40 years I have. Do you own a house worth over $500k? Do you have a Thriftsavings plan or 401k worth over $500k? Do you own stocks that are in that vicinity in value?

Boom you are a millionaire too, jack ass.

Maybe your problem is that you think that only people who inherit or are money grubbing shit-bags can be millionaires?

I don't know, but the fact that you are about as stupid as cold dog shit is certainly factor.

Well thanks for divulging that information. Now I am absolutely positive you are not a millionaire. People like you always tell on themselves. You cant help it because you want to impress.

Youre not a millionaire because you have a million in assets dummy. Its a little more complicated than that. Let me help you out. Your net worth is what determines if you are a millionaire or not. If you have a million in assets but 2 million in debts you are just broke on a higher level.

Another tip. Just because you think a house is worth 500k doesn't mean someone else does. Your home is worth what people will pay for it. You dont know that until someone buys it. If you also are paying a note on your home you will see how quickly it ceases being an asset and becomes a liability if you lose your income. What about inflation? is your 401K out performing that silent killer of interest? Did you really say saving money? LMAO! If you really spent time around millionaires you would know this is all the wrong stuff to say. Quick question. How do you measure wealth?

Lol, you really are a stupid ass. You think all these people like Trump etc are debt free? No, they go boom to bust to boom and bust and boom again because they have friends that will loan them money. They know these people are good for it and they can take tax write offs.

And there is no one single definition for who is a millionaire either, stupid ass. Some say its net, some say its income, some say its total property value of all kinds. When the state taxes my property, they don't axe me if I owe on it, dumbass, so it is worth what its worth.

It is hugely easy to become a millionaire by the most broad definition/use of the word; it is almost meaningless today. Back when gas was a dime a gallon it really meant something.

Don't be so jealous sweet heart

roflmao

Sorry Jimbo. You had your chance to impress and flubbed it up. We are not talking about Trump using debt to get ahead. We are talking about you claiming that in order to be a millionaire all you have to do is have a million in assets. You obviously dont get the concept because even if Trump had more debt than assets he would not be a millionaire. Is this getting through to you? No matter how many definitions you think the word millionaire has, the reality is you simply have to have a million dollars in assets over and above your debts and those assets need to be appreciating faster than the rate of inflation. Your refusal to understand that simplistic concept is further evidence you are hopelessly out of your element when talking about becoming a millionaire. I grant you its easy to become one if you know what you are doing. However, you have proven you don't have an inkling as to how its done. Thats how I know you have never spoken with a millionaire.

 

[Asclepias]

The point is it's global. Relatively few blacks are successful anywhere. Just fact,or if you prefer, racist I guess.

You are right. White racism is global. Blacks everywhere are affected by it.

Not quite right.

All the evil white colonial powers have left Africa more than half a century or in other words two generations ago.

Blacks there are only held back by other blacks, kind of same as it was when blacks sold other blacks into slavery 300-400 years ago.

Get out from under the thumb of charlatans like Al Sharpton and Barak Obama and think for yourself.

You are misinformed. The colonial powers may have physically left Africa but they still control portions of it. In leaving Africa they left it a mess as they divided it up irregardless of traditional borders before whites ever gained a foothold. In addition to that they continue to finance money hungry dictators to keep some of the countries in perpetual warfare. Even the "aid" sent to countries in Africa have conditions. I know anything less readily apparent than your TV is hard for you to figure out. Get an education about the effect loaning money has had on some of the countries. While you are at it get an education so you will learn some of the countries are doing quite well.

 

[Andylusion]

My dear Asclepijas:

If "White privilege/racism is the primary cause historically, directly, and indirectly for any self defeating behavior in the communities of brown and black people," then why did this behavior lie dormant until the advent of the Great Society in the 1960's? Prior to that time, illegitimacy rates between Negroes and "whites" were approximately the same.

And BTW, I'm not denying the existence of "white privilege" or of pervasive racism at various times and places in our history. I'm only making the point that people who behave in a grossly self-destructive way will get no sympathy blaming their problems on others.

"I may be fat, ugly, and lazy, but that guy refused to hire me because I'm Irish!"

Doesn't exactly inspire sympathy, does it?

There is nothing wrong with being fat and ugly.

*sniff*

Hey now! I totally represent that remark! How dare you!

 

[JimBowie1958]

Well thanks for divulging that information. Now I am absolutely positive you are not a millionaire. People like you always tell on themselves. You cant help it because you want to impress.

Youre not a millionaire because you have a million in assets dummy. Its a little more complicated than that. Let me help you out. Your net worth is what determines if you are a millionaire or not. If you have a million in assets but 2 million in debts you are just broke on a higher level.

Another tip. Just because you think a house is worth 500k doesn't mean someone else does. Your home is worth what people will pay for it. You dont know that until someone buys it. If you also are paying a note on your home you will see how quickly it ceases being an asset and becomes a liability if you lose your income. What about inflation? is your 401K out performing that silent killer of interest? Did you really say saving money? LMAO! If you really spent time around millionaires you would know this is all the wrong stuff to say. Quick question. How do you measure wealth?

Lol, you really are a stupid ass. You think all these people like Trump etc are debt free? No, they go boom to bust to boom and bust and boom again because they have friends that will loan them money. They know these people are good for it and they can take tax write offs.

And there is no one single definition for who is a millionaire either, stupid ass. Some say its net, some say its income, some say its total property value of all kinds. When the state taxes my property, they don't axe me if I owe on it, dumbass, so it is worth what its worth.

It is hugely easy to become a millionaire by the most broad definition/use of the word; it is almost meaningless today. Back when gas was a dime a gallon it really meant something.

Don't be so jealous sweet heart

roflmao

Sorry Jimbo. You had your chance to impress and flubbed it up. We are not talking about Trump using debt to get ahead. We are talking about you claiming that in order to be a millionaire all you have to do is have a million in assets. You obviously dont get the concept because even if Trump had more debt than assets he would not be a millionaire. Is this getting through to you? No matter how many definitions you think the word millionaire has, the reality is you simply have to have a million dollars in assets over and above your debts and those assets need to be appreciating faster than the rate of inflation. Your refusal to understand that simplistic concept is further evidence you are hopelessly out of your element when talking about becoming a millionaire. I grant you its easy to become one if you know what you are doing. However, you have proven you don't have an inkling as to how its done. Thats how I know you have never spoken with a millionaire.

lol, OK, whatever.

 

[Andylusion]

What information contradicts racism? You havent listed anything. The evidence is overwhelming. Practically everyone can see that.

"Practically everyone" apparently doesn't include a good portion of the forum.

Again, we don't have to list proof contradicting racism is causing blacks to be unsuccessful. The burden of proof is on you to prove it does. You've listed statistics which give no indication as to the reason. You have filled your own bias into the reason. That is not fact, that is an assumption on your part.

If I were you I wouldnt exactly think most of the people on this forum represents the best in society as far as intelligence.

Yes you do have to list proof contradicting racism. You have to do that in order to dispute the proof it does exist. Otherwise you are just offering your opinion and I wont allow you to do that. Do you understand now?

First off, I never suggested racism doesn't exist. Further, demanding I prove a negative, reflects poorly on you.

My suggestion was that differences in outcomes today, have more to do with individual choices, and I do have, and have posted, more than a few examples of evidence supporting my views.

And ironically, just today I was listening to yet another great example. The BBC just aired a Documentary called: "Three Continents, Three Generations"
Posted, Wed, 16 Jul 2014

BBC - Podcasts and Downloads - Documentaries

The Doc is on the British authority in Kenya. So the Brits imported India labor to Kenya, and hundreds of thousands of Indian workers migrated to Kenya.

Now keep in mind the Brits were racists towards both Kenyans and the Indians both. So these India laborers were working and integrating, and advancing, and pretty soon, the Indian immigrants were moving into the same jobs, and neighborhoods, that were originally reserved only for the British.

Then Kenya gained independence from the UK. Kenya pushed racist policies against their Indian population, causing a flood of Indians from Kenya to flood into Britian. This caused a highly racist law limited Asians immigration into Britian, even though these were legally British citizens, who were legal citizens from decades of being citizens of the British commonwealth.

The main part of the documentary is about how the Southeast Asians dealt with racism in being allowed into Britian, because India wouldn't let them back, Kenya wanted them out, and Britian wouldn't take them, even though they were legal British citizens.

But for me the question was, how were they able to achieve a level of success nearly, if not equal to the British in Kenya, when the same Racism against the native Kenyans was leveled against them? Further, how were they able to become just as successful in England?

If you listen to the documentary, the answers start to be apparent.

They worked very hard, and worked to integrate themselves into society. For example, they changed their names to more English names. They worked to be good neighbors, and live in peace with those around them.

Just changing their names, is a sign of their attitude. Just like Asians in the US do better than all other minorities, even White Americans, they tend to change their names to American names. At my parents' church when I was young, three families of Koreans immigrated to the US, and were invited to join our church, which they did. When they finally gained citizenship, all of them changed their names to American names.

Alternatively, Cassius Marcellus Clay, Jr changed his name to Muhammad Ali. How many choose name intentionally difficult and different, to separate from American culture?

Or refuse to change their names, which are terribly hard to pronounce. Now that's their choice, and there is nothing wrong with that choice at all. But it's an example of their attitude about integrating into society.

For example, in the documentary, they started dressing like the British, rather than their native Indian garb, or even the Kenya garb which was similar. They started eating cow, which, according to some in India were 'holy', claiming that Indian cows are holy, but Kenyan cows are not.

They so adapted to society that, in the Documentary one of the Indian people interviewed said he was listening to the radio, when he heard a man call in and say that the most wonderful Indian couple had moved in next door, and he wanted to know if there were books on speaking Hindi, so he could talk to them better. Later on, after hearing him more, he realized the man who called into the radio program, was actually his neighbor.

Now compare that to some groups in the US today.

I live in a condo. Several years back, a Mexican family moved in next door. Right about 1 AM, some very authentic Mexican music started coming through the walls. Now granted, I accepted years ago that I live in a Condo, and this is going to happen, but I can easily see how others might not be so accepting of Mariachi steaming at 1 AM.

Of course that was not nearly as bad as the Black guy that moved in a few doors down two years ago, and had a huge fight in the parking lot, with 5 police cruisers swarm over the place.

He acted like we were the crazy ones for being ticked off that he brought out the helicopter to our little area. Like fights in the street were perfectly normal and expected.

The Condo association fined the landlord who rented the Condo, and he in turn fined the renters who immediately moved out.

Again, compare that to Asians across from me, who run a heating and air business, and just bought a (sports car of some sort). Always friendly. Always nice. Wonderful people.

Culture is the problem. Ethics is the problem. Those with good culture and good ethics, end up better off in society... even in racist societies.

 

[Andylusion]

This must mean you are all out of talking points. I accept your concession you are woefully under educated.

We understand your dilemma. If white privilege did exist, then black failure could be excused.

The problem is universal, even where there few whites. Shifting the onus is thus totally bogus.

There are very few blacks in the world who do not live beyond relative poverty and by far the most of those who are actually successful live in areas with high white populations.

Black people failing doesnt need an excuse. Racism and its affects are the explanation.

The problem of racism is universal. I agree with you on that point. Wherever white people have no influence either historically or presently Black people flourish. Pretending that isn't the cause is amusing.

There are plenty of Blacks that live several stratospheres above the poverty mark you call home. Not enough in my opinion but a large number despite white racists doing their best to hold them back.

What country of Black people, which has had zero influence by White people, would you point to?

 

[Andylusion]

...only for rw retards with an axe to grind.

No one cares what you imbeciles think.

Coming from someone who keeps claiming his personal opinion, is 'fact'.

Its not just my "opinion" its millions of peoples "opinions". You are the among the few that lie to yourself and pretend it doesn't exist or lie to others knowing it exists but afraid if you acknowledge it your headstart, leg up, privilege will be taken from you. Other white guys admit to it because they are not afraid. Read these words from 2 white guys to help your fright.

Racial Justice - The Benefit of Being White

This exercise helps white people understand how racism works in our favor, and on many different levels. The exercise is for all white participants, or for mixed groups in which the white people participate and the people of color observe. Since white privilege—the specific kinds of economic, social, and political advantages that white people gain at the expense of people of color—is generally invisible, this exercise helps those of us who are white see and acknowledge just how extensive and pervasive those benefits are.

Straight White Male: The Lowest Difficulty Setting There Is | Whatever

I’ve been thinking of a way to explain to straight white men how life works for them, without invoking the dreaded word “privilege,” to which they react like vampires being fed a garlic tart at high noon. It’s not that the word “privilege” is incorrect, it’s that it’s not their word. When confronted with “privilege,” they fiddle with the word itself, and haul out the dictionaries and find every possible way to talk about the word but not any of the things the word signifies.

So you posted a bunch of opinions, to prove that your posts are not all opinion. Unbelievable.

 

[Andylusion]

The evidence was sited in the article that apparently no one read. White privilege is well documented empirically as well as historically.

I just read the article for the second time. It does not make that case. It shows statistical facts, which you have pointed out, that do not give an indication as to cause. You assume that "white privilege" is the cause. But that is an assumption only. Not a provable fact.

It is not a documented empirical truth. Historically, it was, and you could document and prove it. That is not true today.

You go it ass-backwards. White privilege is simply examples of institutional advantages afforded to Caucasians. The statistics back up this concept.

You haven't proven the institutional advantages. You have claimed there are, but evidence to support that claim is limited.

The statistics only proved there are differences in outcomes, not the reasons why.

You are only making an assumption, that the statistics prove your claim.

They don't.

 

[Asclepias]

"Practically everyone" apparently doesn't include a good portion of the forum.

Again, we don't have to list proof contradicting racism is causing blacks to be unsuccessful. The burden of proof is on you to prove it does. You've listed statistics which give no indication as to the reason. You have filled your own bias into the reason. That is not fact, that is an assumption on your part.

If I were you I wouldnt exactly think most of the people on this forum represents the best in society as far as intelligence.

Yes you do have to list proof contradicting racism. You have to do that in order to dispute the proof it does exist. Otherwise you are just offering your opinion and I wont allow you to do that. Do you understand now?

First off, I never suggested racism doesn't exist. Further, demanding I prove a negative, reflects poorly on you.

My suggestion was that differences in outcomes today, have more to do with individual choices, and I do have, and have posted, more than a few examples of evidence supporting my views.

And ironically, just today I was listening to yet another great example. The BBC just aired a Documentary called: "Three Continents, Three Generations"
Posted, Wed, 16 Jul 2014

BBC - Podcasts and Downloads - Documentaries

The Doc is on the British authority in Kenya. So the Brits imported India labor to Kenya, and hundreds of thousands of Indian workers migrated to Kenya.

Now keep in mind the Brits were racists towards both Kenyans and the Indians both. So these India laborers were working and integrating, and advancing, and pretty soon, the Indian immigrants were moving into the same jobs, and neighborhoods, that were originally reserved only for the British.

Then Kenya gained independence from the UK. Kenya pushed racist policies against their Indian population, causing a flood of Indians from Kenya to flood into Britian. This caused a highly racist law limited Asians immigration into Britian, even though these were legally British citizens, who were legal citizens from decades of being citizens of the British commonwealth.

The main part of the documentary is about how the Southeast Asians dealt with racism in being allowed into Britian, because India wouldn't let them back, Kenya wanted them out, and Britian wouldn't take them, even though they were legal British citizens.

But for me the question was, how were they able to achieve a level of success nearly, if not equal to the British in Kenya, when the same Racism against the native Kenyans was leveled against them? Further, how were they able to become just as successful in England?

If you listen to the documentary, the answers start to be apparent.

They worked very hard, and worked to integrate themselves into society. For example, they changed their names to more English names. They worked to be good neighbors, and live in peace with those around them.

Just changing their names, is a sign of their attitude. Just like Asians in the US do better than all other minorities, even White Americans, they tend to change their names to American names. At my parents' church when I was young, three families of Koreans immigrated to the US, and were invited to join our church, which they did. When they finally gained citizenship, all of them changed their names to American names.

Alternatively, Cassius Marcellus Clay, Jr changed his name to Muhammad Ali. How many choose name intentionally difficult and different, to separate from American culture?

Or refuse to change their names, which are terribly hard to pronounce. Now that's their choice, and there is nothing wrong with that choice at all. But it's an example of their attitude about integrating into society.

For example, in the documentary, they started dressing like the British, rather than their native Indian garb, or even the Kenya garb which was similar. They started eating cow, which, according to some in India were 'holy', claiming that Indian cows are holy, but Kenyan cows are not.

They so adapted to society that, in the Documentary one of the Indian people interviewed said he was listening to the radio, when he heard a man call in and say that the most wonderful Indian couple had moved in next door, and he wanted to know if there were books on speaking Hindi, so he could talk to them better. Later on, after hearing him more, he realized the man who called into the radio program, was actually his neighbor.

Now compare that to some groups in the US today.

I live in a condo. Several years back, a Mexican family moved in next door. Right about 1 AM, some very authentic Mexican music started coming through the walls. Now granted, I accepted years ago that I live in a Condo, and this is going to happen, but I can easily see how others might not be so accepting of Mariachi steaming at 1 AM.

Of course that was not nearly as bad as the Black guy that moved in a few doors down two years ago, and had a huge fight in the parking lot, with 5 police cruisers swarm over the place.

He acted like we were the crazy ones for being ticked off that he brought out the helicopter to our little area. Like fights in the street were perfectly normal and expected.

The Condo association fined the landlord who rented the Condo, and he in turn fined the renters who immediately moved out.

Again, compare that to Asians across from me, who run a heating and air business, and just bought a (sports car of some sort). Always friendly. Always nice. Wonderful people.

Culture is the problem. Ethics is the problem. Those with good culture and good ethics, end up better off in society... even in racist societies.

I didnt mean to imply you said racism doesn't exist. We both know it does. What you are missing is that the effects of racism is a large component in the rate of what you may call "success" vs failure. You seem to say on one hand racism exists but its not relevant? Do I understand this correctly?

You mentioned the Brits being racist towards both Kenyans and Indians. My question is was that level of racism equal or was it setup as a caste system with the Indian a rung above the Kenyans? As far as success in England you do realize Africans are the most highly educated demographic right? You want to know why? They never had their traditions, language, and religion stripped from them. They have a background that was passed down which fostered success.

Here is where it always gets weird for me in an amusing way. Why should someone have to change their name? This is one aspect of white people that really cracks me up. Who told you that anyone has to prove to whites that they have a good attitude by changing their names? If you cant pronounce the name you need to make a better effort. Its really that simple.

American culture. Thats another amusing topic. Did you mean white culture? The reason I ask is because you already admitted to believing changing your name is a sign of integrating. American culture is made up of contributions of different cultures. You cant tell me anything about american culture that is strictly white.

Maybe what you see is a refusal of most Blacks not to abandon the things that they feel are important. Maybe racism is caused by whites feeling angered that Blacks do not see them as the models of civilized society. i for one dont conform to most of the tenets of white culture and never have. This has never held me back. What caused temporary roadblocks were whites attempting to stop my progress because I was Black.

I lived next door to some white people who got pissy drunk one night and broke my fence down then denied they did it. I didn't immediately come to the conclusion that all whites were like that. I think what your issue appears to be is that you are trying to fit a square into a circle. I used to do that too. Whenever that occurs you should back up admit you are wrong and look deeper into the issue. Your conclusion is too simplistic.

 

[Asclepias]

We understand your dilemma. If white privilege did exist, then black failure could be excused.

The problem is universal, even where there few whites. Shifting the onus is thus totally bogus.

There are very few blacks in the world who do not live beyond relative poverty and by far the most of those who are actually successful live in areas with high white populations.

Black people failing doesnt need an excuse. Racism and its affects are the explanation.

The problem of racism is universal. I agree with you on that point. Wherever white people have no influence either historically or presently Black people flourish. Pretending that isn't the cause is amusing.

There are plenty of Blacks that live several stratospheres above the poverty mark you call home. Not enough in my opinion but a large number despite white racists doing their best to hold them back.

What country of Black people, which has had zero influence by White people, would you point to?

There are no countries left on earth that are not influenced in some way by European and US politics. We have to go back before Whites colonized the world. Do you want a whole list or will one do?

The Mali empire for starters.

 

[Andylusion]

If I were you I wouldnt exactly think most of the people on this forum represents the best in society as far as intelligence.

Yes you do have to list proof contradicting racism. You have to do that in order to dispute the proof it does exist. Otherwise you are just offering your opinion and I wont allow you to do that. Do you understand now?

First off, I never suggested racism doesn't exist. Further, demanding I prove a negative, reflects poorly on you.

My suggestion was that differences in outcomes today, have more to do with individual choices, and I do have, and have posted, more than a few examples of evidence supporting my views.

And ironically, just today I was listening to yet another great example. The BBC just aired a Documentary called: "Three Continents, Three Generations"
Posted, Wed, 16 Jul 2014

BBC - Podcasts and Downloads - Documentaries

The Doc is on the British authority in Kenya. So the Brits imported India labor to Kenya, and hundreds of thousands of Indian workers migrated to Kenya.

Now keep in mind the Brits were racists towards both Kenyans and the Indians both. So these India laborers were working and integrating, and advancing, and pretty soon, the Indian immigrants were moving into the same jobs, and neighborhoods, that were originally reserved only for the British.

Then Kenya gained independence from the UK. Kenya pushed racist policies against their Indian population, causing a flood of Indians from Kenya to flood into Britian. This caused a highly racist law limited Asians immigration into Britian, even though these were legally British citizens, who were legal citizens from decades of being citizens of the British commonwealth.

The main part of the documentary is about how the Southeast Asians dealt with racism in being allowed into Britian, because India wouldn't let them back, Kenya wanted them out, and Britian wouldn't take them, even though they were legal British citizens.

But for me the question was, how were they able to achieve a level of success nearly, if not equal to the British in Kenya, when the same Racism against the native Kenyans was leveled against them? Further, how were they able to become just as successful in England?

If you listen to the documentary, the answers start to be apparent.

They worked very hard, and worked to integrate themselves into society. For example, they changed their names to more English names. They worked to be good neighbors, and live in peace with those around them.

Just changing their names, is a sign of their attitude. Just like Asians in the US do better than all other minorities, even White Americans, they tend to change their names to American names. At my parents' church when I was young, three families of Koreans immigrated to the US, and were invited to join our church, which they did. When they finally gained citizenship, all of them changed their names to American names.

Alternatively, Cassius Marcellus Clay, Jr changed his name to Muhammad Ali. How many choose name intentionally difficult and different, to separate from American culture?

Or refuse to change their names, which are terribly hard to pronounce. Now that's their choice, and there is nothing wrong with that choice at all. But it's an example of their attitude about integrating into society.

For example, in the documentary, they started dressing like the British, rather than their native Indian garb, or even the Kenya garb which was similar. They started eating cow, which, according to some in India were 'holy', claiming that Indian cows are holy, but Kenyan cows are not.

They so adapted to society that, in the Documentary one of the Indian people interviewed said he was listening to the radio, when he heard a man call in and say that the most wonderful Indian couple had moved in next door, and he wanted to know if there were books on speaking Hindi, so he could talk to them better. Later on, after hearing him more, he realized the man who called into the radio program, was actually his neighbor.

Now compare that to some groups in the US today.

I live in a condo. Several years back, a Mexican family moved in next door. Right about 1 AM, some very authentic Mexican music started coming through the walls. Now granted, I accepted years ago that I live in a Condo, and this is going to happen, but I can easily see how others might not be so accepting of Mariachi steaming at 1 AM.

Of course that was not nearly as bad as the Black guy that moved in a few doors down two years ago, and had a huge fight in the parking lot, with 5 police cruisers swarm over the place.

He acted like we were the crazy ones for being ticked off that he brought out the helicopter to our little area. Like fights in the street were perfectly normal and expected.

The Condo association fined the landlord who rented the Condo, and he in turn fined the renters who immediately moved out.

Again, compare that to Asians across from me, who run a heating and air business, and just bought a (sports car of some sort). Always friendly. Always nice. Wonderful people.

Culture is the problem. Ethics is the problem. Those with good culture and good ethics, end up better off in society... even in racist societies.

I didnt mean to imply you said racism doesn't exist. We both know it does. What you are missing is that the effects of racism is a large component in the rate of what you may call "success" vs failure. You seem to say on one hand racism exists but its not relevant? Do I understand this correctly?

You mentioned the Brits being racist towards both Kenyans and Indians. My question is was that level of racism equal or was it setup as a caste system with the Indian a rung above the Kenyans? As far as success in England you do realize Africans are the most highly educated demographic right? You want to know why? They never had their traditions, language, and religion stripped from them. They have a background that was passed down which fostered success.

Here is where it always gets weird for me in an amusing way. Why should someone have to change their name? This is one aspect of white people that really cracks me up. Who told you that anyone has to prove to whites that they have a good attitude by changing their names? If you cant pronounce the name you need to make a better effort. Its really that simple.

American culture. Thats another amusing topic. Did you mean white culture? The reason I ask is because you already admitted to believing changing your name is a sign of integrating. American culture is made up of contributions of different cultures. You cant tell me anything about american culture that is strictly white.

Maybe what you see is a refusal of most Blacks not to abandon the things that they feel are important. Maybe racism is caused by whites feeling angered that Blacks do not see them as the models of civilized society. i for one dont conform to most of the tenets of white culture and never have. This has never held me back. What caused temporary roadblocks were whites attempting to stop my progress because I was Black.

I lived next door to some white people who got pissy drunk one night and broke my fence down then denied they did it. I didn't immediately come to the conclusion that all whites were like that. I think what your issue appears to be is that you are trying to fit a square into a circle. I used to do that too. Whenever that occurs you should back up admit you are wrong and look deeper into the issue. Your conclusion is too simplistic.

Racism largely has no real effect in our modern society. In my time, I've worked with hundreds, if not thousands, of minorities. In my experience, both professionally, and personally, and communally, the reason for success and failure of those minorities, were the same as whites, namely the ethics and culture of the individuals in question.

I can't think of a single Black person, or any minority, who was denied a job because of race, nor can I think of any that lost a job, or didn't get promoted, or denied a pay raise.

Another short story. I worked at a place that was owned by an Egyptian, and they hired almost exclusively Muslim immigrants. I was one of only 3 white Americans in the entire building, and the other 2 quit within a few months of me showing up. They had baths for the men, so they could wash their feet and heads before lunch. On Friday everyone would just get up and leave to go to the Mosque.

I found out I was the lowest paid person in the building. They obviously were racist. Black Muslim racism is holding down the whities.

But here is what was interesting. The highest paid tech in the place, was a Mexican Catholic. Which illustrates my point. Work ethic, and mastering a skill or talent, and working with integrity, will overcome racism, whether it is from a white American, or a Black Muslim. They paid him the most, because he was always early to work, and always produced good work, and mastered the ability to fix what he was given.

To answer your question about the BBC, they made it clear the same racism was directed at both. Originally both Indians and Kenyans were excluded. But then over time, the Indians advanced, while the Kenyans remained where they were. And the reason why, is just as the Indians in the documentary said, they put effort into integrating into British society. Soon, Indians were moving into exactly those areas they were prohibited from before.

I too had some white people across the street who played loud music at all hours of the night. Shockingly, we levied fines on them until they moved out too.

Again, yet another example of it not being about race, but rather individual choices. The white guy that caused problems in the condo, had the same result as those of minorities.

And no, obviously I didn't mean "white culture", or I would have said that. I said American Culture, because that's what I meant.

Now, if an individual chooses to maintain their cultural heritage, at the exclusion of the culture of the country he is in, that's his choice.

But I can nearly guarantee that those people will not do as well as those who give up aspects of their native culture to fit in with the society around them, will do better, than those that don't.

Again, that's a choice, not racism. Europeans who move to Japan, and refuse to engage in the Japanese culture, don't do as well as those that do.

[ame=http://youtu.be/Eu_bKJ11O0M]Thomas Sowell - Culture Matters - YouTube[/ame]

Thomas Sowell outlines this perfectly.

 

[Slyhunter]

Ever hear of evolution? In Evolution the old die to make room for the new and improved new. Blacks are the old and whites are the new and improved.

 

[Asclepias]

First off, I never suggested racism doesn't exist. Further, demanding I prove a negative, reflects poorly on you.

My suggestion was that differences in outcomes today, have more to do with individual choices, and I do have, and have posted, more than a few examples of evidence supporting my views.

And ironically, just today I was listening to yet another great example. The BBC just aired a Documentary called: "Three Continents, Three Generations"
Posted, Wed, 16 Jul 2014

BBC - Podcasts and Downloads - Documentaries

The Doc is on the British authority in Kenya. So the Brits imported India labor to Kenya, and hundreds of thousands of Indian workers migrated to Kenya.

Now keep in mind the Brits were racists towards both Kenyans and the Indians both. So these India laborers were working and integrating, and advancing, and pretty soon, the Indian immigrants were moving into the same jobs, and neighborhoods, that were originally reserved only for the British.

Then Kenya gained independence from the UK. Kenya pushed racist policies against their Indian population, causing a flood of Indians from Kenya to flood into Britian. This caused a highly racist law limited Asians immigration into Britian, even though these were legally British citizens, who were legal citizens from decades of being citizens of the British commonwealth.

The main part of the documentary is about how the Southeast Asians dealt with racism in being allowed into Britian, because India wouldn't let them back, Kenya wanted them out, and Britian wouldn't take them, even though they were legal British citizens.

But for me the question was, how were they able to achieve a level of success nearly, if not equal to the British in Kenya, when the same Racism against the native Kenyans was leveled against them? Further, how were they able to become just as successful in England?

If you listen to the documentary, the answers start to be apparent.

They worked very hard, and worked to integrate themselves into society. For example, they changed their names to more English names. They worked to be good neighbors, and live in peace with those around them.

Just changing their names, is a sign of their attitude. Just like Asians in the US do better than all other minorities, even White Americans, they tend to change their names to American names. At my parents' church when I was young, three families of Koreans immigrated to the US, and were invited to join our church, which they did. When they finally gained citizenship, all of them changed their names to American names.

Alternatively, Cassius Marcellus Clay, Jr changed his name to Muhammad Ali. How many choose name intentionally difficult and different, to separate from American culture?

Or refuse to change their names, which are terribly hard to pronounce. Now that's their choice, and there is nothing wrong with that choice at all. But it's an example of their attitude about integrating into society.

For example, in the documentary, they started dressing like the British, rather than their native Indian garb, or even the Kenya garb which was similar. They started eating cow, which, according to some in India were 'holy', claiming that Indian cows are holy, but Kenyan cows are not.

They so adapted to society that, in the Documentary one of the Indian people interviewed said he was listening to the radio, when he heard a man call in and say that the most wonderful Indian couple had moved in next door, and he wanted to know if there were books on speaking Hindi, so he could talk to them better. Later on, after hearing him more, he realized the man who called into the radio program, was actually his neighbor.

Now compare that to some groups in the US today.

I live in a condo. Several years back, a Mexican family moved in next door. Right about 1 AM, some very authentic Mexican music started coming through the walls. Now granted, I accepted years ago that I live in a Condo, and this is going to happen, but I can easily see how others might not be so accepting of Mariachi steaming at 1 AM.

Of course that was not nearly as bad as the Black guy that moved in a few doors down two years ago, and had a huge fight in the parking lot, with 5 police cruisers swarm over the place.

He acted like we were the crazy ones for being ticked off that he brought out the helicopter to our little area. Like fights in the street were perfectly normal and expected.

The Condo association fined the landlord who rented the Condo, and he in turn fined the renters who immediately moved out.

Again, compare that to Asians across from me, who run a heating and air business, and just bought a (sports car of some sort). Always friendly. Always nice. Wonderful people.

Culture is the problem. Ethics is the problem. Those with good culture and good ethics, end up better off in society... even in racist societies.

I didnt mean to imply you said racism doesn't exist. We both know it does. What you are missing is that the effects of racism is a large component in the rate of what you may call "success" vs failure. You seem to say on one hand racism exists but its not relevant? Do I understand this correctly?

You mentioned the Brits being racist towards both Kenyans and Indians. My question is was that level of racism equal or was it setup as a caste system with the Indian a rung above the Kenyans? As far as success in England you do realize Africans are the most highly educated demographic right? You want to know why? They never had their traditions, language, and religion stripped from them. They have a background that was passed down which fostered success.

Here is where it always gets weird for me in an amusing way. Why should someone have to change their name? This is one aspect of white people that really cracks me up. Who told you that anyone has to prove to whites that they have a good attitude by changing their names? If you cant pronounce the name you need to make a better effort. Its really that simple.

American culture. Thats another amusing topic. Did you mean white culture? The reason I ask is because you already admitted to believing changing your name is a sign of integrating. American culture is made up of contributions of different cultures. You cant tell me anything about american culture that is strictly white.

Maybe what you see is a refusal of most Blacks not to abandon the things that they feel are important. Maybe racism is caused by whites feeling angered that Blacks do not see them as the models of civilized society. i for one dont conform to most of the tenets of white culture and never have. This has never held me back. What caused temporary roadblocks were whites attempting to stop my progress because I was Black.

I lived next door to some white people who got pissy drunk one night and broke my fence down then denied they did it. I didn't immediately come to the conclusion that all whites were like that. I think what your issue appears to be is that you are trying to fit a square into a circle. I used to do that too. Whenever that occurs you should back up admit you are wrong and look deeper into the issue. Your conclusion is too simplistic.

Racism largely has no real effect in our modern society. In my time, I've worked with hundreds, if not thousands, of minorities. In my experience, both professionally, and personally, and communally, the reason for success and failure of those minorities, were the same as whites, namely the ethics and culture of the individuals in question.

I can't think of a single Black person, or any minority, who was denied a job because of race, nor can I think of any that lost a job, or didn't get promoted, or denied a pay raise.

Another short story. I worked at a place that was owned by an Egyptian, and they hired almost exclusively Muslim immigrants. I was one of only 3 white Americans in the entire building, and the other 2 quit within a few months of me showing up. They had baths for the men, so they could wash their feet and heads before lunch. On Friday everyone would just get up and leave to go to the Mosque.

I found out I was the lowest paid person in the building. They obviously were racist. Black Muslim racism is holding down the whities.

But here is what was interesting. The highest paid tech in the place, was a Mexican Catholic. Which illustrates my point. Work ethic, and mastering a skill or talent, and working with integrity, will overcome racism, whether it is from a white American, or a Black Muslim. They paid him the most, because he was always early to work, and always produced good work, and mastered the ability to fix what he was given.

To answer your question about the BBC, they made it clear the same racism was directed at both. Originally both Indians and Kenyans were excluded. But then over time, the Indians advanced, while the Kenyans remained where they were. And the reason why, is just as the Indians in the documentary said, they put effort into integrating into British society. Soon, Indians were moving into exactly those areas they were prohibited from before.

I too had some white people across the street who played loud music at all hours of the night. Shockingly, we levied fines on them until they moved out too.

Again, yet another example of it not being about race, but rather individual choices. The white guy that caused problems in the condo, had the same result as those of minorities.

And no, obviously I didn't mean "white culture", or I would have said that. I said American Culture, because that's what I meant.

Now, if an individual chooses to maintain their cultural heritage, at the exclusion of the culture of the country he is in, that's his choice.

But I can nearly guarantee that those people will not do as well as those who give up aspects of their native culture to fit in with the society around them, will do better, than those that don't.

Again, that's a choice, not racism. Europeans who move to Japan, and refuse to engage in the Japanese culture, don't do as well as those that do.

[ame=http://youtu.be/Eu_bKJ11O0M]Thomas Sowell - Culture Matters - YouTube[/ame]

Thomas Sowell outlines this perfectly.

Racism has a very real effect on our society. Take a look at the state of affairs racism has caused. You simply cannot be this imperceptive

I can think of quite a few Black and Mexican people I know that were denied jobs because of their race. There are also studies out that express the same racism you display when you feel people should change their names. Studies have found that if you have a name that sounds "black" you are substantially less likely to get a callback from an employer looking at your resume despite have a better skill set than the white sounding names. How do you explain that and what do you think the implications are for someone Black looking for a job?

I know for a fact the British practiced a racial caste system everywhere in Africa. Blacks were on the bottom with whites on top and indians in the middle. Gandhi even echoed this sentiment. Its a known fact that the closer you are to being white the better whites treat you. That is evident everywhere on the planet.

You keep missing the point. My choice to indulge in my culture does not give you license to practice racism. The fact that you just admitted I need to change my culture in order to succeed should turn on a light bulb in your head. Racism effects the lives of the people it is practised against. You just admitted it.

 

[FJO]

I am neither black nor brown. So, I am not a VISIBLE minority.

But my Hungarian accent prevented me from obtaining promotions I have earned. So, I am an AUDIBLE minority.

I am not even going complain about the signs I saw that many employers displayed that "No Hungarians need apply" in the early 1960's. I went back day after day, applied again and again, until I DID get hired. That is called perseverance. Back then there was no welfare, so it was work or starve. I never complained. I earned my citizenship and never missed voting in an election since 1965.

I worked my way out of the mines, bushes and factory floors and taught myself computer programming from which I retired after 38 years, in 2003.

Name just ONE (1) black person who faced "No Blacks Need Apply". Did you?

And another thing: My ancestors were feudal serfs. Their life was far worse than the lives of any American black slave. Not to mention that European feudal serf were in chains a hell of a lot longer than black American slaves, like going back a thousand years.

Do you hear me complain? Do you hear me demanding reparation?

Will you ever consider to shut up and do something constructive for yourself?

 

[Asclepias]

I am neither black nor brown. So, I am not a VISIBLE minority.

But my Hungarian accent prevented me from obtaining promotions I have earned. So, I am an AUDIBLE minority.

I am not even going complain about the signs I saw that many employers displayed that "No Hungarians need apply" in the early 1960's. I went back day after day, applied again and again, until I DID get hired. That is called perseverance. Back then there was no welfare, so it was work or starve. I never complained. I earned my citizenship and never missed voting in an election since 1965.

I worked my way out of the mines, bushes and factory floors and taught myself computer programming from which I retired after 38 years, in 2003.

Name just ONE (1) black person who faced "No Blacks Need Apply". Did you?

And another thing: My ancestors were feudal serfs. Their life was far worse than the lives of any American black slave. Not to mention that European feudal serf were in chains a hell of a lot longer than black American slaves, like going back a thousand years.

Do you hear me complain? Do you hear me demanding reparation?

Will you ever consider to shut up and do something constructive for yourself?

Please stop. Youre white dude. My grandfather told me about immigrants like you. You really think because you have an accent people are not going to hire you over a black person?

Are you being serious about the no blacks need apply signs? Are you borderline retarded?

Feudal serfs never lost their religion, history, language, and place of birth. Another interesting thing is it didn't happen here in the US. That is what i call an ad hominem.

You have no need to complain. Youre white and subject to the privileges of being white. No one checks to see if you are from Hungary before calling you white.

I've already done something constructive for myself and it appears I did it in less time than it took for you to retire.

 

[FJO]

I am neither black nor brown. So, I am not a VISIBLE minority.

But my Hungarian accent prevented me from obtaining promotions I have earned. So, I am an AUDIBLE minority.

I am not even going complain about the signs I saw that many employers displayed that "No Hungarians need apply" in the early 1960's. I went back day after day, applied again and again, until I DID get hired. That is called perseverance. Back then there was no welfare, so it was work or starve. I never complained. I earned my citizenship and never missed voting in an election since 1965.

I worked my way out of the mines, bushes and factory floors and taught myself computer programming from which I retired after 38 years, in 2003.

Name just ONE (1) black person who faced "No Blacks Need Apply". Did you?

And another thing: My ancestors were feudal serfs. Their life was far worse than the lives of any American black slave. Not to mention that European feudal serf were in chains a hell of a lot longer than black American slaves, like going back a thousand years.

Do you hear me complain? Do you hear me demanding reparation?

Will you ever consider to shut up and do something constructive for yourself?

Please stop. Youre white dude. My grandfather told me about immigrants like you. You really think because you have an accent people are not going to hire you over a black person?

Are you being serious about the no blacks need apply signs? Are you borderline retarded?

Feudal serfs never lost their religion, history, language, and place of birth. Another interesting thing is it didn't happen here in the US. That is what i call an ad hominem.

You have no need to complain. Youre white and subject to the privileges of being white. No one checks to see if you are from Hungary before calling you white.

I've already done something constructive for myself and it appears I did it in less time than it took for you to retire.

There WAS time in my life when I was not promoted because of my accent.

My accent was about the same deterrent for potential employers as nose rings, tattoos and body piercing is for a black person.

I saw the "No Hungarians Need Apply" sign after the law was passed to prohibit discrimination against blacks.

Feudal serfs were diminished, tortured, exploited, murdered, their wives and daughters raped, far more so than black slaves, in the land of their birth. They were treated cruelly in spite the fact that their religion was the same as their oppressors. You say that atrocities committed on white folks, and especially if they were not committed in geographical United States, they are OK, forgivable, fine, since it only happened to privileged white serfs?

Now it is my turn to ask if you are border line insane.

No group of people need to lose their religion, language and culture. If they are worth preserving, they will be preserved. Just take a look at St. Patrick Day parades and October Fests, for example.

You lose your history, language, culture and religion if they are garbage and easily replaced by something better.

Kind of like replacing tum tum drums with piano, guitar and trumpet?

Or "African contribution to the civilized world" with books, radio, computer, television and cars and sewing machines and trains.

By law NO ONE dares to ask you anything should you opt to be useful and try to get a job. You have affirmative action. You have a slavish media on your side. You have the President on your side.

And you are still complaining, crying and bitching in your own country, where you all the laws are in your favor, because nobody wants to be called a RACIST.

So, shut the Hell up already.