Eva Bartlett: Human Rights and Justice in Gaza

[Hollie]

Here's the way I think it should work:

Gaza stops all hostilities. Israel rewards that behaviour with goodies. In that order. Why are you having a problem with this?

Tried that several times. Israel always reneges.

So, you are indeed claiming that Israel attacks Gaza with no cause.

Ah, okay. I'm glad I asked you the second time, since you seemed to deny it the first.

So, we have a different problem here. You are claiming that Israel has no intention of making peace with Gaza and living side-by-side as neighbors. You are subscribing to a narrative of what you believe the other side's position is. Its an issue of trust.

And frankly, its not a narrative based on factual or objective truths. Israel has, in fact, given every indication that it is willing to permit self-rule in Gaza as long as it does not threaten Israel. (Seriously, Israel could flatten Gaza in a micro-second. Why haven't they if that is their intent?)

But I agree with you, that if that is the narrative, it will be nearly impossible to make peace. That narrative has to change first. Unfortunately, when people cling to clearly false narratives based on assumptions of the other side's position or the assignation of evil intent to the other side's position, it is very very difficult to change.

You are claiming that Israel has no intention of making peace with Gaza​

Bingo!

The Hamas Charter leaves no room for negotiation.

 

[P F Tinmore]

Here's the way I think it should work:

Gaza stops all hostilities. Israel rewards that behaviour with goodies. In that order. Why are you having a problem with this?

Tried that several times. Israel always reneges.

So, you are indeed claiming that Israel attacks Gaza with no cause.

Ah, okay. I'm glad I asked you the second time, since you seemed to deny it the first.

So, we have a different problem here. You are claiming that Israel has no intention of making peace with Gaza and living side-by-side as neighbors. You are subscribing to a narrative of what you believe the other side's position is. Its an issue of trust.

And frankly, its not a narrative based on factual or objective truths. Israel has, in fact, given every indication that it is willing to permit self-rule in Gaza as long as it does not threaten Israel. (Seriously, Israel could flatten Gaza in a micro-second. Why haven't they if that is their intent?)

But I agree with you, that if that is the narrative, it will be nearly impossible to make peace. That narrative has to change first. Unfortunately, when people cling to clearly false narratives based on assumptions of the other side's position or the assignation of evil intent to the other side's position, it is very very difficult to change.

You are claiming that Israel has no intention of making peace with Gaza​

Bingo!

The Hamas Charter leaves no room for negotiation.

Hamas is a child of conflict. If the conflict ends they will have no reason to exist.

 

[Hollie]

Tried that several times. Israel always reneges.

So, you are indeed claiming that Israel attacks Gaza with no cause.

Ah, okay. I'm glad I asked you the second time, since you seemed to deny it the first.

So, we have a different problem here. You are claiming that Israel has no intention of making peace with Gaza and living side-by-side as neighbors. You are subscribing to a narrative of what you believe the other side's position is. Its an issue of trust.

And frankly, its not a narrative based on factual or objective truths. Israel has, in fact, given every indication that it is willing to permit self-rule in Gaza as long as it does not threaten Israel. (Seriously, Israel could flatten Gaza in a micro-second. Why haven't they if that is their intent?)

But I agree with you, that if that is the narrative, it will be nearly impossible to make peace. That narrative has to change first. Unfortunately, when people cling to clearly false narratives based on assumptions of the other side's position or the assignation of evil intent to the other side's position, it is very very difficult to change.

You are claiming that Israel has no intention of making peace with Gaza​

Bingo!

The Hamas Charter leaves no room for negotiation.

Hamas is a child of conflict. If the conflict ends they will have no reason to exist.

Nonsense. Franchises of Islamic terrorist organizations exist in locations other than those surrounding Israel.

Read some of what is taking place across the globe as muhammedans are creating conflict in furtherance of muhammedan ideology.

 

[Phoenall]

There is no border there. Which direction would that be?

In all practical ways there is a very clear border between Gaza and Israel. Only a treaty will create a formal border. So what?

IOW, there is no border. The only so called border is the 1949 armistice line between Israeli and Egyptian forces. For whatever that is worth.

2. The Armistice Demarcation Line is not to be construed in any sense as a political or territorial boundary,

The Avalon Project : Egyptian-Israeli General Armistice Agreement, February 24, 1949​

Here's a thought, tinny. Begin in Gaza'istan and march eastward on your own personal gee-had. Let us know what nonexistent border you run in to.

Yeah, probably run into some assholes who don't know that there is no border there.

Well you islamonazi's don't believe that the Jews have any rights to self determination or a homeland

 

[Phoenall]

Israel broke it, Israel needs to fix it.

So, the government of Gaza has absolutely no responsibility for managing the health and safety of its own people? That seems to me to indicate that you believe Israel is obligated to exert full control over Gaza and re-occupy it to ensure the safety and health of the Gazan people. Yes or no?

Stupid question. You need to read up.

And stay away from that Israeli propaganda crap.

No a perfectly valid question that you cant answer without showing your lack intelligence and total hatred for the Jews

When are you going to stay away from the islamonazi pallywood propaganda crap you post every day as if it is the only source of truth. Even when it is shown to be based on LIES, and you still believe the islamonazi pallywood propagands and BLOOD LIBELS



Now do you believe Israel is obligated to exert full control over Gaza and re-occupy it to ensure the safety and health of the Gazan people. Yes or no ?

 

[Phoenall]

Stupid question. You need to read up.

And stay away from that Israeli propaganda crap.

Tinman, I would put my knowledge and research on the line against yours any day of the week.

I am asking you for your personal opinion and to reveal your moral compass. It has nothing at all to do with research. WHO has the responsibility for the health and safety of the Gazan people? Who has the ability to put that responsibility into practice?

You don't want to answer. You shy away from answering every time I ask something difficult. I keep asking because I think you can do better.

Let's start here.



There are rules to occupation that place responsibilities and restrictions on the occupying power. One of these responsibilities is to protect the safety and health of the occupied population. A restriction is to not destroy property. Israel violates virtually all of the rules of occupation.

And their own rules prove that gaza is not occupied other than by hamas who invaded in 2007 and took full military control.
Now show how gaza is occupied using the UN's own rules for what constitutes occupation ?


AND STOP DUCKING THE QUESTION ALL THE TIME, IF YOU DONT WANT TO ANSWER THEN JUST SAY SO AND WE CAN DRAW OUR OWN CONCLUSIONS FROM THAT.

 

[Phoenall]

Tried that several times. Israel always reneges.

So, you are indeed claiming that Israel attacks Gaza with no cause.

Ah, okay. I'm glad I asked you the second time, since you seemed to deny it the first.

So, we have a different problem here. You are claiming that Israel has no intention of making peace with Gaza and living side-by-side as neighbors. You are subscribing to a narrative of what you believe the other side's position is. Its an issue of trust.

And frankly, its not a narrative based on factual or objective truths. Israel has, in fact, given every indication that it is willing to permit self-rule in Gaza as long as it does not threaten Israel. (Seriously, Israel could flatten Gaza in a micro-second. Why haven't they if that is their intent?)

But I agree with you, that if that is the narrative, it will be nearly impossible to make peace. That narrative has to change first. Unfortunately, when people cling to clearly false narratives based on assumptions of the other side's position or the assignation of evil intent to the other side's position, it is very very difficult to change.

You are claiming that Israel has no intention of making peace with Gaza​

Bingo!

The Hamas Charter leaves no room for negotiation.

Hamas is a child of conflict. If the conflict ends they will have no reason to exist.

So the conflict started when hamas came into existence as a result of palestinian violence, making the problem one of Palestinian making. So it is up to hamas to end the conflict and negotiate in good faith.

 

[Phoenall]

Stupid question. You need to read up.

And stay away from that Israeli propaganda crap.

Tinman, I would put my knowledge and research on the line against yours any day of the week.

I am asking you for your personal opinion and to reveal your moral compass. It has nothing at all to do with research. WHO has the responsibility for the health and safety of the Gazan people? Who has the ability to put that responsibility into practice?

You don't want to answer. You shy away from answering every time I ask something difficult. I keep asking because I think you can do better.

Tinman, I would put my knowledge and research on the line against yours any day of the week.​

Cool, start a thread.

And how soon into it would you introduce a deflection, derailment or a duck to force the evidence away from the reality.

You have lost the first round already on a TKO and you are still groggy

 

[Phoenall]

Cool, start a thread.

Why bother? You won't answer any of the questions any way. Why don't you start by answering the question posed by me in this thread.

See, the problem I am facing when trying to debate on this forum is that I am looking for solutions to the problem. Moving forward, not just demonizing or blaming.

What is the solution to the safety and health problems for the people in Gaza?

The first thing I have to say is there will not be a negotiated solution. The so called peace process is designed to fail. It always has and always will.

There has to be a major change in the process. They have to get rid of those old farts who still believe in Oslo and creating "a state" on the crumbs remaining of historic Palestine.

There are many Palestinians who could more aggressively negotiate on a legal basis and in the context of history on the world stage.

And the biggest cause of this failure is the elected government of the paqlestinian people putting clauses into their pre ambles that it knows will never be met.



Hamas - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


Co-founder Sheik Ahmed Yassin stated in 1987, and the Hamas Charter affirmed in 1988, that Hamas was founded to liberate Palestine, including modern-day Israel, from Israeli occupation and to establish an Islamic state in the area that is now Israel, the West Bank and the Gaza Strip.[15][16] The group has stated that it may accept a 10-year truce if Israel withdraws to the 1967 borders and allows Palestinian refugees from 1948, as well as their descendants, to return to what is now Israel,[17][18][19][20] although clarifying that this does not mean recognition of Israel or the end of the conflict.[21] Hamas' military wing has objected to the truce offer.[22] Analysts have said that it seems clear that Hamas knows that many of its conditions for the truce could never be met.[23

 

[Phoenall]

Hilarious thread title, when all Palestinian Muslim animals ever do is target Israeli civilians.

"all Palestinian Muslim animals ever do is target Israeli civilians."

Israeli animals do the same thing, only they target and kill thousands of Palestinian civilians at a time.

And your evidence for this is what, apart from islamonazi propaganda from pallywood productions

 

[Phoenall]

Pretty much the sickest most disgusting people on earth, glorifying the killing of children, the ZionNazis.



"There is no school tomorrow; there are no children left in Gaza,” chanted the right-wing extremists gathered opposite Tel Aviv’s Rabin Square on Saturday night, waving Israeli flags and shaking their fingers in the air.

As the the cries of “I hate all the Arabs” and “Gaza is a cemetery” intensified"

Right-wing Israelis celebrate the deaths of Gazan children

A small group of extremists, going on your criteria this means that all muslims want to see the mass murder of all non muslims and the destruction of the world . What a failure you are freddy with your Jew hatred ran wild and your catholonazi dogma

 

[Phoenall]

What is the solution to the safety and health problems for the people in Gaza?

The first thing I have to say is there will not be a negotiated solution. The so called peace process is designed to fail. It always has and always will.

There has to be a major change in the process. They have to get rid of those old farts who still believe in Oslo and creating "a state" on the crumbs remaining of historic Palestine.

There are many Palestinians who could more aggressively negotiate on a legal basis and in the context of history on the world stage.

Okay. Thank you for focusing on solutions.

In Gaza, in particular, what should the end goal look like and what steps should be taken by which parties towards it?

In my mind, the first thing that has to happen is the end of all violence. That will entail a major shift in thinking in Gaza. Do you think that is possible?

"True peace is not merely the absence of tension; it is the presence of justice." ~ Martin Luther King JR.​

We have heard Nutandyahoo say that he wanted calm for calm. What does that mean?

Gaza.
Rockets and other attacks will stop.

Israel.
Bombing will stop but Israel can still shoot farmers and fishermen. The siege, which in itself is an act of war, will continue. Israel will still enter Gaza to destroy crops and infrastructure.

Israel has never wanted peace. Peace goes against its agenda.

The only people in the world pushing for peace is BDS.

And who has declared that the blockade is an act of war then, as you are not in a position to make that judgement. As far as the world is concerned the blockade is legal and is in place with the minimum of banned products as decreed under IHL and the Geneva conventions/

Israel has asked for peace every day since may 15 1948, it is the arab muslims that have denied there will ever be a peace.

BDS is a proven Nazi organisaqtion that does not want peace, just the death of the worlds Jews. This is why so many nations are now making BDS illegal, amongst them Palestine who see it as damaging to any possible peace deal in the future

 

[Phoenall]

"True peace is not merely the absence of tension; it is the presence of justice." ~ Martin Luther King JR.​

We have heard Nutandyahoo say that he wanted calm for calm. What does that mean?

Gaza.
Rockets and other attacks will stop.

Israel.
Bombing will stop but Israel can still shoot farmers and fishermen. The siege, which in itself is an act of war, will continue. Israel will still enter Gaza to destroy crops and infrastructure.

Well, let's focus on what we think are practical solutions and leave the rest out of it.

Gaza.
Rockets attacks stop. All tunnel building stops and all existing tunnels are destroyed. All approaches to buffer zones stop.

Israel.
All response to attacks becomes unnecessary since there are no attacks and no violations.

Yay! No more people being hurt or killed. Great start. After a specified amount of time (I'm open as to how long that is), fishing zones are increased and buffer zones are decreased.

Joint project is initiated. I would suggest a water or sewage treatment facility. Construction is monitored by a joint committee of Gazans, Israelis and two third parties to ensure all construction materials are used for the intended purpose. Project is funded by Israel and international donors. All labor is performed by the Gazan people as an employment project.

With me so far?

Under the terms given by Israel the time is 3 months for relaxation of the fishing zones, this is a gradual process that is done unilaterally.

For speed and safety the pipework to be constructed out of polyurethane and the costs to be borne by the P.A. third parties and the smallest part by Israel. Wages to be paid by the fund allocated to the reconstruction. Once the Palestinians have shown they can nd do something right then joint ventures can be looked at. Without proof of ability and capability the Israelis should not be expected to go into such projects cold

 

[Phoenall]

"True peace is not merely the absence of tension; it is the presence of justice." ~ Martin Luther King JR.​

We have heard Nutandyahoo say that he wanted calm for calm. What does that mean?

Gaza.
Rockets and other attacks will stop.

Israel.
Bombing will stop but Israel can still shoot farmers and fishermen. The siege, which in itself is an act of war, will continue. Israel will still enter Gaza to destroy crops and infrastructure.

Well, let's focus on what we think are practical solutions and leave the rest out of it.

Gaza.
Rockets attacks stop. All tunnel building stops and all existing tunnels are destroyed. All approaches to buffer zones stop.

Israel.
All response to attacks becomes unnecessary since there are no attacks and no violations.

Yay! No more people being hurt or killed. Great start. After a specified amount of time (I'm open as to how long that is), fishing zones are increased and buffer zones are decreased.

Joint project is initiated. I would suggest a water or sewage treatment facility. Construction is monitored by a joint committee of Gazans, Israelis and two third parties to ensure all construction materials are used for the intended purpose. Project is funded by Israel and international donors. All labor is performed by the Gazan people as an employment project.

With me so far?

Israel's version of a ceasefire.

Israeli forces open fire on Palestinian farmers, level lands in Gaza Strip

Witnesses told Ma’an they saw three Israeli bulldozers enter the Palestinian side of the Gaza borderline and level lands near the border fence on the outskirts of al-Nahdha neighborhood east of Rafah. No injuries were reported.

Separately, Israeli forces reportedly opened fire on Palestinian farmers tending their land in al-Najjar neighborhood near the village of Khuzaa in the southern Gaza Strip. No injuries have been reported.

Israeli forces open fire on Palestinian farmers, level lands in Gaza Strip

OK , every little bit helps. The problem I see is that complete compliance would be required by the Palestinians while Israel piddles around on its.

According to islamonazi sources in Iran, no other source given.


Part of the ceasefire agreement is Israel keeping the buffer zone clear of vegetation. This hamas agreed to and are only now complaining because they have no cover for terrorist attacks.

They were told they would be fired on if the entered a certain area and they push it every day. That is until Israel fire warning shots to scare the terrorists away. No evidence yet to show that they are farmers who were fired at.


NOW WHY DID YOU DEFLEFT AND DERAIL THE THREAD THAT HAS YOU ON THE ROPES

 

[Phoenall]

OK , every little bit helps. The problem I see is that complete compliance would be required by the Palestinians while Israel piddles around on its.

Yes. Complete cessation of hostilities from the Gazan peoples is the initial requirement. This would indicate a willingness to live peacefully as a neighbor to Israel.

Why would this be a problem?

Israel will not reciprocate.

IT WOULD NOT NEED TO AS THE HOSTILITIES IT RESPONDS TO WOULD NO LONGER BE A FACTOR.

The farmers would be allowed to enter so far into the buffer zone for the act of farming, any suspicious activity would result in the IDF approaching and keeping the "farmers" in the vicinity while the ground is checked for IED's or mines.

 

[Phoenall]

1. Why do Zionists believe Palestinians should not resist Jewish rule?

2. Why Zionists believe Palestinians should behave any differently than other resistance groups such as the ANC, the Kurds or others.

3. Why do Zionists support violent Kurdish resistance, including bombings, against the Turks?

Evidence from a non partisan source

Evidence from a non partisan source

Evidence from a non partisan source


Up to now all you have is islamonazi propaganda sources as your source.

 

[docmauser1]

Unbelievable to think this girl is lying. This is not a "goofy video".

That's what her hamas handler is there for. And the vid is goofy, of course. Cretinously goofy so.

 

[Shusha]

What gets me about this whole conversation, and many I've had over the years, is the utter lack of responsibility the Palestinians take and the way this lack of responsibility is supported and upheld in the wider, international community.

Whenever a pro-Israeli argument is presented which suggests that the Palestinians take some sort of responsibility for ending the conflict or improving the conditions for their people, or doing anything at all to end their suffering -- the response is invariably: "we can't" or "someone else has to give us a prezzie first" or "its someone else's job to fix it". (Didn't Tinman say this on this very thread? Israel broke it and so Israel has to fix it.)

What are we supposed to DO with a group of people who insist that they should be taken care of by others while at the same time are demanding both independence and the right to commit violence? Seriously? Its like the teenager who wants to move out of the parent's house but wants the parents to find an apartment for them, clean up the new place, buy all the furniture and decorate and pay the rent. While the parent is attempting to accomplish this -- the teenager is trashing the parent's house in the hopes that this forces the parent to hurry up. Then the teenager spends the weekend at his new place and trashes it and then blames the parent and demands the parent fix it for them.

Its ridiculous.

 

[Phoenall]

What gets me about this whole conversation, and many I've had over the years, is the utter lack of responsibility the Palestinians take and the way this lack of responsibility is supported and upheld in the wider, international community.

Whenever a pro-Israeli argument is presented which suggests that the Palestinians take some sort of responsibility for ending the conflict or improving the conditions for their people, or doing anything at all to end their suffering -- the response is invariably: "we can't" or "someone else has to give us a prezzie first" or "its someone else's job to fix it". (Didn't Tinman say this on this very thread? Israel broke it and so Israel has to fix it.)

What are we supposed to DO with a group of people who insist that they should be taken care of by others while at the same time are demanding both independence and the right to commit violence? Seriously? Its like the teenager who wants to move out of the parent's house but wants the parents to find an apartment for them, clean up the new place, buy all the furniture and decorate and pay the rent. While the parent is attempting to accomplish this -- the teenager is trashing the parent's house in the hopes that this forces the parent to hurry up. Then the teenager spends the weekend at his new place and trashes it and then blames the parent and demands the parent fix it for them.

Its ridiculous.

A very good analogy of just how the Palestinians act, and their enablers also