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Hospitals and doctors cannot actively participate in someones actual death but they can keep you in a deep painless sleep and in my dads case when the end was very near our dr gave us a full bottle of injectable opiates to take home with us (his wish was to die at home and he only lasted one more day after being released from the medical facility) It was cancer (non-hodgkins lymphoma) agressive and painfull even in optimum circumstances.
Point being : it isnt all black and white out there. There are some things never spoken about in the name of compassion.
There is also reasons doctors give the oath. They are taught many deadly things and the oath Id to insure us patients that we can trust them. Hoe do you trust people who seem to only want to end life?
If I say this very slowly you might understand.
There is no right to have someone else kill you. If there were it would be the number one defrnse to murder.
That is the point of this discussion is it not? There SHOULD be a 'right' to have someone assist you in ending your own life if you wish to do so. We are not talking about flippant unthought out statements but rather the wishes of people such as Mr.Nicklinson, those with a condition that the medical profession cannot improve or cure, those who have suffered for years and do not wish to continue their existence in that state anymore. It's not called 'putting to death' or 'murder' , it's compassion.
The thing is, medicine and science have most certainly made it possible to live longer. What they cannot do is give us QUALITY of life to go along with those extre years. My mother passed recently and her wishes were no life support at a certain point. It was in her will and was posted above her bed as a DNR, which means 'do not resuscitate'. We three daughters had no choice but to accede to her wishes.
In Moms case her heart, lungs and urinary tract were failing. Fixing one or even two of those conditions would not have given her the life she would have wanted, what with endless rounds of dialysis, urinary and bladder control treatment, respitory failure and the inevitable stroke that, after all, would have rendered her powerless.
She was 85 when she died, a full and happy life lived and no regrets.
We kids had no regrets either. She died peacefully after support was pulled and we held onto her hands as she passed.
Don't confuse murder with life choices and compassion. It's ridiculous.
Hospitals and doctors cannot actively participate in someones actual death but they can keep you in a deep painless sleep and in my dads case when the end was very near our dr gave us a full bottle of injectable opiates to take home with us (his wish was to die at home and he only lasted one more day after being released from the medical facility) It was cancer (non-hodgkins lymphoma) agressive and painfull even in optimum circumstances.
Point being : it isnt all black and white out there. There are some things never spoken about in the name of compassion.
There is also reasons doctors give the oath. They are taught many deadly things and the oath Id to insure us patients that we can trust them. Hoe do you trust people who seem to only want to end life?
That is the point of this discussion is it not? There SHOULD be a 'right' to have someone assist you in ending your own life if you wish to do so. We are not talking about flippant unthought out statements but rather the wishes of people such as Mr.Nicklinson, those with a condition that the medical profession cannot improve or cure, those who have suffered for years and do not wish to continue their existence in that state anymore. It's not called 'putting to death' or 'murder' , it's compassion.
The thing is, medicine and science have most certainly made it possible to live longer. What they cannot do is give us QUALITY of life to go along with those extre years. My mother passed recently and her wishes were no life support at a certain point. It was in her will and was posted above her bed as a DNR, which means 'do not resuscitate'. We three daughters had no choice but to accede to her wishes.
In Moms case her heart, lungs and urinary tract were failing. Fixing one or even two of those conditions would not have given her the life she would have wanted, what with endless rounds of dialysis, urinary and bladder control treatment, respitory failure and the inevitable stroke that, after all, would have rendered her powerless.
She was 85 when she died, a full and happy life lived and no regrets.
We kids had no regrets either. She died peacefully after support was pulled and we held onto her hands as she passed.
Don't confuse murder with life choices and compassion. It's ridiculous.
There is a difference between life support and euthanasia or assisted suicide. Euthanasia and assisted suicide both require an absence of artificial life support.
Hospitals and doctors cannot actively participate in someones actual death but they can keep you in a deep painless sleep and in my dads case when the end was very near our dr gave us a full bottle of injectable opiates to take home with us (his wish was to die at home and he only lasted one more day after being released from the medical facility) It was cancer (non-hodgkins lymphoma) agressive and painfull even in optimum circumstances.
Point being : it isnt all black and white out there. There are some things never spoken about in the name of compassion.
There is also reasons doctors give the oath. They are taught many deadly things and the oath Id to insure us patients that we can trust them. Hoe do you trust people who seem to only want to end life?
That's why it is up to the patient to include his own personal DNR (DO NOT RESUSCITATE) in his will or at least make his wishes known ahead of time, against the posibility of not being able to make your wishes known at the time.
The DNR covers a vast amount of choices and situations about where, at what point,when the patient would rather opt out.
There is also reasons doctors give the oath. They are taught many deadly things and the oath Id to insure us patients that we can trust them. Hoe do you trust people who seem to only want to end life?
That's why it is up to the patient to include his own personal DNR (DO NOT RESUSCITATE) in his will or at least make his wishes known ahead of time, against the posibility of not being able to make your wishes known at the time.
The DNR covers a vast amount of choices and situations about where, at what point,when the patient would rather opt out.
A DNR means DO NOT RESUSCITATE, meaning you have to have stopped breathing FIRST. It does not cover situations where you don't need resuscitation. You are breathing on your own, you are functioning on your own. You are not unconscious. You are not in an apparent state of death.
The thing is, medicine and science have most certainly made it possible to live longer. What they cannot do is give us QUALITY of life to go along with those extre years. My mother passed recently and her wishes were no life support at a certain point. It was in her will and was posted above her bed as a DNR, which means 'do not resuscitate'. We three daughters had no choice but to accede to her wishes.
In Moms case her heart, lungs and urinary tract were failing. Fixing one or even two of those conditions would not have given her the life she would have wanted, what with endless rounds of dialysis, urinary and bladder control treatment, respitory failure and the inevitable stroke that, after all, would have rendered her powerless.
She was 85 when she died, a full and happy life lived and no regrets.
We kids had no regrets either. She died peacefully after support was pulled and we held onto her hands as she passed.
Don't confuse murder with life choices and compassion. It's ridiculous.
There is a difference between life support and euthanasia or assisted suicide. Euthanasia and assisted suicide both require an absence of artificial life support.
Well, that's a whole different ballgame, isn't it? Kavorkian-style euthanasia? So far we've only seen one Jack K. We are still talking choices here, are we not??
There is a difference between life support and euthanasia or assisted suicide. Euthanasia and assisted suicide both require an absence of artificial life support.
Well, that's a whole different ballgame, isn't it? Kavorkian-style euthanasia? So far we've only seen one Jack K. We are still talking choices here, are we not??
Whose "choice"? These things have a way of growing way beyond the initial concept of "choice". When the Roe decision came down, did anyone imagine that the concept of abortion would be extended to healthy newborn babies? No. It would never have passed if that were considered. Yet today, we have the first stirrings of legalizing the murder of newborns. We already kill them as they are being born, just extend it a few inches.
If you imagine, for a second, that "choice" won't be extended to those that are burdensome and inconvenient to others, you are dreaming. "The idea of "choice" is SELDOM if ever a "choice". Especially when you factor in some concept of "quality of life". If you do not wish to accept "suicide", you will be counseled into do so. You're crippled and will never go on a bike ride again. You are blind and will never see another sunrise. Your quality of life is diminished, you SHOULD WANT to commit suicide and if you don't, there's something wrong with you. Maybe you are just incompetent to make that decision and need someone to make it for you. Living might be YOUR choice, but if you are incompetent to make that CHOICE it will be made for you.
In the Netherlands, assisted suicide has been extended from the terminally ill, to the merely bored.
Dutch plan to let healthy elderly people commit suicide - Telegraph
This is a road that we should not be going down. At all.
There is a difference between life support and euthanasia or assisted suicide. Euthanasia and assisted suicide both require an absence of artificial life support.
Well, that's a whole different ballgame, isn't it? Kavorkian-style euthanasia? So far we've only seen one Jack K. We are still talking choices here, are we not??
Whose "choice"? These things have a way of growing way beyond the initial concept of "choice". When the Roe decision came down, did anyone imagine that the concept of abortion would be extended to healthy newborn babies? No. It would never have passed if that were considered. Yet today, we have the first stirrings of legalizing the murder of newborns. We already kill them as they are being born, just extend it a few inches.
If you imagine, for a second, that "choice" won't be extended to those that are burdensome and inconvenient to others, you are dreaming. "The idea of "choice" is SELDOM if ever a "choice". Especially when you factor in some concept of "quality of life". If you do not wish to accept "suicide", you will be counseled into do so. You're crippled and will never go on a bike ride again. You are blind and will never see another sunrise. Your quality of life is diminished, you SHOULD WANT to commit suicide and if you don't, there's something wrong with you. Maybe you are just incompetent to make that decision and need someone to make it for you. Living might be YOUR choice, but if you are incompetent to make that CHOICE it will be made for you.
In the Netherlands, assisted suicide has been extended from the terminally ill, to the merely bored.
Dutch plan to let healthy elderly people commit suicide - Telegraph
This is a road that we should not be going down. At all.
Well, that's a whole different ballgame, isn't it? Kavorkian-style euthanasia? So far we've only seen one Jack K. We are still talking choices here, are we not??
Whose "choice"? These things have a way of growing way beyond the initial concept of "choice". When the Roe decision came down, did anyone imagine that the concept of abortion would be extended to healthy newborn babies? No. It would never have passed if that were considered. Yet today, we have the first stirrings of legalizing the murder of newborns. We already kill them as they are being born, just extend it a few inches.
If you imagine, for a second, that "choice" won't be extended to those that are burdensome and inconvenient to others, you are dreaming. "The idea of "choice" is SELDOM if ever a "choice". Especially when you factor in some concept of "quality of life". If you do not wish to accept "suicide", you will be counseled into do so. You're crippled and will never go on a bike ride again. You are blind and will never see another sunrise. Your quality of life is diminished, you SHOULD WANT to commit suicide and if you don't, there's something wrong with you. Maybe you are just incompetent to make that decision and need someone to make it for you. Living might be YOUR choice, but if you are incompetent to make that CHOICE it will be made for you.
In the Netherlands, assisted suicide has been extended from the terminally ill, to the merely bored.
Dutch plan to let healthy elderly people commit suicide - Telegraph
This is a road that we should not be going down. At all.
Okay, now Im catchng up. This is about Obamacare. All I can say is we haven't seen it in action yet but I believe welfare healthcare is about as sorry a misstep as this country's ever made. I can only hope this fiasco will be repealed before we are hopelessly bogged down in paper-work only, government sanctioned 'health' care. WHICH WILL BE GREAT FOR DEADBEATS THAT KNOW HOW TO WORK THE SYSTEM
As for the death camps, I'm not so sure about that. Would Americans allow that to happen again? Maybe. An awful lot of people voted for this swine and still seem to be enchanted with this resident evil we elected for 'PRESIDENT'
Yes, that's what this is really about -
The choice to live and die as we each wish.
We each own our own body and should be able to make our own choices - not have them made for us.
Just one more area of our lives we need to keep government out of.
....Says he who believes in federal ACA mandates penalizing free choice of health care???
Whose "choice"? These things have a way of growing way beyond the initial concept of "choice". When the Roe decision came down, did anyone imagine that the concept of abortion would be extended to healthy newborn babies? No. It would never have passed if that were considered. Yet today, we have the first stirrings of legalizing the murder of newborns. We already kill them as they are being born, just extend it a few inches.
If you imagine, for a second, that "choice" won't be extended to those that are burdensome and inconvenient to others, you are dreaming. "The idea of "choice" is SELDOM if ever a "choice". Especially when you factor in some concept of "quality of life". If you do not wish to accept "suicide", you will be counseled into do so. You're crippled and will never go on a bike ride again. You are blind and will never see another sunrise. Your quality of life is diminished, you SHOULD WANT to commit suicide and if you don't, there's something wrong with you. Maybe you are just incompetent to make that decision and need someone to make it for you. Living might be YOUR choice, but if you are incompetent to make that CHOICE it will be made for you.
In the Netherlands, assisted suicide has been extended from the terminally ill, to the merely bored.
Dutch plan to let healthy elderly people commit suicide - Telegraph
This is a road that we should not be going down. At all.
Okay, now Im catchng up. This is about Obamacare. All I can say is we haven't seen it in action yet but I believe welfare healthcare is about as sorry a misstep as this country's ever made. I can only hope this fiasco will be repealed before we are hopelessly bogged down in paper-work only, government sanctioned 'health' care. WHICH WILL BE GREAT FOR DEADBEATS THAT KNOW HOW TO WORK THE SYSTEM
As for the death camps, I'm not so sure about that. Would Americans allow that to happen again? Maybe. An awful lot of people voted for this swine and still seem to be enchanted with this resident evil we elected for 'PRESIDENT'
It's not about obamacare. Even though obamacare has both death panels and a provision for doctors to counsel patients into accepting suicide rather than medical care. It is about perverting medical care to include murder. And, redefine murder.
Years ago there was a controversy regarding having professionals and family members declare someone incompetent and have them committed to facilities. It seems that family was using this provision to remove burdensome and inconvenient family members, gain control of their assets, and confine them for the rest of their lives. Those days are gone, to the point where the seriously mentally ill can't be taken off the streets for any reason. But, it is being replaced by the duty to die when you become ill, or bored, or disappointed. Or, a medical professional can be persuaded, financially, that your choice is to kill yourself and testify to that if need be. If a question arises later, you can't take the stand and tell anyone about it can you? Why not have a Living Will, that makes your wishes known? That will settle it, right? No, not right. Last wishes for euthanasia or assisted suicide can be and are as forged as any other document.
I can understand a DNR, "if my heart stops, don't restart". That's not the same thing as taking an active role in ending someone's life.
Okay, now Im catchng up. This is about Obamacare. All I can say is we haven't seen it in action yet but I believe welfare healthcare is about as sorry a misstep as this country's ever made. I can only hope this fiasco will be repealed before we are hopelessly bogged down in paper-work only, government sanctioned 'health' care. WHICH WILL BE GREAT FOR DEADBEATS THAT KNOW HOW TO WORK THE SYSTEM
As for the death camps, I'm not so sure about that. Would Americans allow that to happen again? Maybe. An awful lot of people voted for this swine and still seem to be enchanted with this resident evil we elected for 'PRESIDENT'
It's not about obamacare. Even though obamacare has both death panels and a provision for doctors to counsel patients into accepting suicide rather than medical care. It is about perverting medical care to include murder. And, redefine murder.
Years ago there was a controversy regarding having professionals and family members declare someone incompetent and have them committed to facilities. It seems that family was using this provision to remove burdensome and inconvenient family members, gain control of their assets, and confine them for the rest of their lives. Those days are gone, to the point where the seriously mentally ill can't be taken off the streets for any reason. But, it is being replaced by the duty to die when you become ill, or bored, or disappointed. Or, a medical professional can be persuaded, financially, that your choice is to kill yourself and testify to that if need be. If a question arises later, you can't take the stand and tell anyone about it can you? Why not have a Living Will, that makes your wishes known? That will settle it, right? No, not right. Last wishes for euthanasia or assisted suicide can be and are as forged as any other document.
I can understand a DNR, "if my heart stops, don't restart". That's not the same thing as taking an active role in ending someone's life.
Are these death panels an actual fact or morbid speculation on the part of people that oppose Obama, (which I do with all my heart) Im just having trouble with the concept of anybody sitting in a room deciding life or death (outside of the Military, of course)
I see alot of resistance in my chosen field (medical) among drs and other healthcare personel. They see it as black days ahead of us but who are these drs that will do the counselling?
It's not about obamacare. Even though obamacare has both death panels and a provision for doctors to counsel patients into accepting suicide rather than medical care. It is about perverting medical care to include murder. And, redefine murder.
Years ago there was a controversy regarding having professionals and family members declare someone incompetent and have them committed to facilities. It seems that family was using this provision to remove burdensome and inconvenient family members, gain control of their assets, and confine them for the rest of their lives. Those days are gone, to the point where the seriously mentally ill can't be taken off the streets for any reason. But, it is being replaced by the duty to die when you become ill, or bored, or disappointed. Or, a medical professional can be persuaded, financially, that your choice is to kill yourself and testify to that if need be. If a question arises later, you can't take the stand and tell anyone about it can you? Why not have a Living Will, that makes your wishes known? That will settle it, right? No, not right. Last wishes for euthanasia or assisted suicide can be and are as forged as any other document.
I can understand a DNR, "if my heart stops, don't restart". That's not the same thing as taking an active role in ending someone's life.
Are these death panels an actual fact or morbid speculation on the part of people that oppose Obama, (which I do with all my heart) Im just having trouble with the concept of anybody sitting in a room deciding life or death (outside of the Military, of course)
I see alot of resistance in my chosen field (medical) among drs and other healthcare personel. They see it as black days ahead of us but who are these drs that will do the counselling?
The death panels are merely the group of government employees who will be applying a cost/benefit analysis to the payment for medical care. If you recall, obama addressed this speaking to a woman whose elderly mother needed a pacemaker. Mother was very old. obama said that the expense of a pacemaker may not be the most cost effective method of dealing with mother's condition. Just give her a pill until she dies. That's what death panels do.
Are these death panels an actual fact or morbid speculation on the part of people that oppose Obama, (which I do with all my heart) Im just having trouble with the concept of anybody sitting in a room deciding life or death (outside of the Military, of course)
I see alot of resistance in my chosen field (medical) among drs and other healthcare personel. They see it as black days ahead of us but who are these drs that will do the counselling?
The death panels are merely the group of government employees who will be applying a cost/benefit analysis to the payment for medical care. If you recall, obama addressed this speaking to a woman whose elderly mother needed a pacemaker. Mother was very old. obama said that the expense of a pacemaker may not be the most cost effective method of dealing with mother's condition. Just give her a pill until she dies. That's what death panels do.
Okay, at first you said dr's would do the counselling. "a provision for doctors to counsel patients into accepting suicide rather than medical care. " See, I don't see that happening. The group of gov't swine in a little room making these decisions is more believable but I'd look for mind battering lawsuits to follow.
Obama is a dirt incrusted blow hole and I remember that statement, as well as the one about 'What do they want me to do? Build them a moat?' Along with that instant classic 'You didn't build this'
The man is a loon. Why can't people see that??
I still need to see concrete proof of an actual death panel. Maybe I just want to think no one would stoop that low but then I remember who we are talking about.
How does that work with all the rapist and murderers roaming free?
Anyone tries to rape you, kill them.
again anarchy. Ever think if you didnt let out the rapist none of this would be necessary?
I've never heard of anyone "being denied burial anywhere in the USA on the grounds of their having committed suicide" either but I have certainly heard of what I said in my post which was - "... If you kill yourself you can't be buried in consecrated ground..."
If I am incorrect, I apologize.
It used to be common practice, I am not sure it really applies now.
That said, I would say you were, essentially, right.
The Catholic and Jewish religions had at one time (don't know about now) a rule about suicides being buried in consecrated ground. It went all the way from not being allowed in the cemetary itself to banishment to the back lot or sometimes even more extreme
Anyone tries to rape you, kill them.
again anarchy. Ever think if you didnt let out the rapist none of this would be necessary?
Self defense is not anarchy.
Would you keep a dog in a cage for the rest of its life?
It used to be common practice, I am not sure it really applies now.
That said, I would say you were, essentially, right.
The Catholic and Jewish religions had at one time (don't know about now) a rule about suicides being buried in consecrated ground. It went all the way from not being allowed in the cemetary itself to banishment to the back lot or sometimes even more extreme
Even when the rule was supposedly inviolable the Church used to hand out exceptions if you had enough money, or could convince someone to fudge the cause of death.
The death panels are merely the group of government employees who will be applying a cost/benefit analysis to the payment for medical care. If you recall, obama addressed this speaking to a woman whose elderly mother needed a pacemaker. Mother was very old. obama said that the expense of a pacemaker may not be the most cost effective method of dealing with mother's condition. Just give her a pill until she dies. That's what death panels do.
Okay, at first you said dr's would do the counselling. "a provision for doctors to counsel patients into accepting suicide rather than medical care. " See, I don't see that happening. The group of gov't swine in a little room making these decisions is more believable but I'd look for mind battering lawsuits to follow.
Obama is a dirt incrusted blow hole and I remember that statement, as well as the one about 'What do they want me to do? Build them a moat?' Along with that instant classic 'You didn't build this'
The man is a loon. Why can't people see that??
I still need to see concrete proof of an actual death panel. Maybe I just want to think no one would stoop that low but then I remember who we are talking about.
It is a provision of obamacare that doctors must provide end of life counseling to their patients. It's one of the few things that they are paid to do. I'm old enough to get such words of wisdom every time I go. I don't even see a doctor anymore. My doctor opted out long ago. The County has provided a physician's assistant instead. Now some PAs are good, almost doctors themselves and some are abysmal. Mine is abysmal. Fortunately when I do go, I have already made the diagnosis and determined what treatment I need. The dolt in a lab coat just signs the prescriptions.
