Electric vehicles

[airplanemechanic]

The switch to EV's seems to be driven by governments and not the market. Which given past history hasn't always worked out for the best. So it's going to be interesting to see how this turns out. Personally I think they are doing it for the wrong reason which will eventually bear itself out.

Awhile back ago I did a quick calculation of converting the gasoline consumption of the US into BTU's and converting the electrical usage of the US into BTU's. They are about the same number. So unless I screwed up, we would need to double our electrical generation and transmission system in the US to go all in on EV's.

My short term concern with EV's is from a tactical point of view. It doesn't seem like a good idea to have all of our eggs in one basket; i.e. almost everything relying on electrical generation and transmission for power.

My long term concern of the "green movement" is ushering in the next glacial cycle. After all we are still in an ice age despite what some people believe.

What about the 2 million active 18 wheelers on the road?

 

[ding]

The switch to EV's seems to be driven by governments and not the market. Which given past history hasn't always worked out for the best. So it's going to be interesting to see how this turns out. Personally I think they are doing it for the wrong reason which will eventually bear itself out.

Awhile back ago I did a quick calculation of converting the gasoline consumption of the US into BTU's and converting the electrical usage of the US into BTU's. They are about the same number. So unless I screwed up, we would need to double our electrical generation and transmission system in the US to go all in on EV's.

My short term concern with EV's is from a tactical point of view. It doesn't seem like a good idea to have all of our eggs in one basket; i.e. almost everything relying on electrical generation and transmission for power.

My long term concern of the "green movement" is ushering in the next glacial cycle. After all we are still in an ice age despite what some people believe.

What about the 2 million active 18 wheelers on the road?

Dunno. I suspect they think they can electrify them as well. If they don't I don't know what the economics would be for diesel fueling stations whose only customers are long haul truckers.

I think these guys are winging it as they go. The only thing they really seem they THINK they know is fossil fuels bad. Can't wait to see them realize their dream. I don't think these guys have thought this through. Which is why government driven and controlled market systems aren't a good idea.

 

[ding]

What could possibly go wrong with a Soviet era type quota system

 

[Desperado]

My boat is a hybrid.

Sail and Kicker motor?

 

[JoeMoma]

My boat is a hybrid.

Sail and Kicker motor?

gas and electric.

 

[Desperado]

My boat is a hybrid.

Sail and Kicker motor?

gas and electric.

I saw that, Outboard and trolling motor

 

[ProfessorHawthorne]

never driven one myself. It seems they are more popular in China and the far east than in the west. Are they the future or not? What do you think?

Maybe if we added some new reliable electricity generation?

Nukes would work, wind and solar.......not so much.

That's the part I find both fatiguing and exasperating. It seems that the smug and righteous greenies like to extoll the virtues of electric vehicles. Eliminating CO2 produced by the catalytic converters that the greenies wanted 45 years ago would happen if we all switched to electric vehicles. This is like the ethanol project from years ago. Let's take good farm land and use it for fuel instead of food. And let's expend more energy to make that gallon of ethanol than it provides.

Charging 100s of millions of cars is just what the power grid needs. Hmm.. since the greenies wanted a moratorium on nuclear power plants 40 years ago after TMI, we'll just build another 150 coal or oil fired generating plants - greenhouse gas problem solved! And no children, wind and solar won't cut it, unless we empty out Arizona and New Mexico and make them "Power Plant" states with no population for starters.

This endless debate makes my head explode. Internal combustion engines and gasoline have grown up together - car makers wanting better or altered gas to make their engines run better and oil producers innovating additives and boosting octane to produce more horsepower and extend engine life. First we put lead in and then we take lead out. It's a symbiotic relationship and yes, a most profitable one for both parties.

We keep failing because we think we can manufacture a new energy source instead of just pumping it out of the ground. We've never been good at manufacturing an energy source. Look at the battery in your car - not much different than the one from 80 years ago. Newer batteries (Li Ion) are better yes, but they too will have to be replaced. Electric cars across the globe will require trillions of them and then trillions more to replace them when they stop taking a charge. Environmental impact, anyone?

Despite all the rhetoric I've heard, no one has come up with a real solution that scales to accommodate real demand. How about some brilliant scientist somewhere comes up with a way to use crude oil cleanly?
Aaarrrrgh!

Cheers

 

[Vrenn]

never driven one myself. It seems they are more popular in China and the far east than in the west. Are they the future or not? What do you think?

Maybe if we added some new reliable electricity generation?

Nukes would work, wind and solar.......not so much.

That's the part I find both fatiguing and exasperating. It seems that the smug and righteous greenies like to extoll the virtues of electric vehicles. Eliminating CO2 produced by the catalytic converters that the greenies wanted 45 years ago would happen if we all switched to electric vehicles. This is like the ethanol project from years ago. Let's take good farm land and use it for fuel instead of food. And let's expend more energy to make that gallon of ethanol than it provides.

Charging 100s of millions of cars is just what the power grid needs. Hmm.. since the greenies wanted a moratorium on nuclear power plants 40 years ago after TMI, we'll just build another 150 coal or oil fired generating plants - greenhouse gas problem solved! And no children, wind and solar won't cut it, unless we empty out Arizona and New Mexico and make them "Power Plant" states with no population for starters.

This endless debate makes my head explode. Internal combustion engines and gasoline have grown up together - car makers wanting better or altered gas to make their engines run better and oil producers innovating additives and boosting octane to produce more horsepower and extend engine life. First we put lead in and then we take lead out. It's a symbiotic relationship and yes, a most profitable one for both parties.

We keep failing because we think we can manufacture a new energy source instead of just pumping it out of the ground. We've never been good at manufacturing an energy source. Look at the battery in your car - not much different than the one from 80 years ago. Newer batteries (Li Ion) are better yes, but they too will have to be replaced. Electric cars across the globe will require trillions of them and then trillions more to replace them when they stop taking a charge. Environmental impact, anyone?

Despite all the rhetoric I've heard, no one has come up with a real solution that scales to accommodate real demand. How about some brilliant scientist somewhere comes up with a way to use crude oil cleanly?
Aaarrrrgh!

Cheers

Okay, how about some facts to help your head explode.

The replacement on the electric battery in a Tesla is about 20 years minimum of normal driving.

The only reason we aren't readily able to recycle Lipos is that we have just started looking into it. We are 25 years behind EU. They recycle the batteries.

I am starting to see lipos replacing even wet cell batteries in cars for starting. The life expectancy of an Auto Battery for starting would be well past the lifetime of the car it's in. In fact, you could probably transfer it into the next 3 or 4 cars you buy as you wear out the gas guzzler.

Using just Natural Gas to produce Electricity, the production of that power source is only a small fraction of the pollution to make the same energy eqiv of gasoline. And the distrubution of the electric power is more efficient than the distrobution of Gasoline or Diesel.

You say that Nukes are the best way. Okay, but at the end of the fuel supply lifetime, what do you do with the fuel rods? You find a nice empty place in the middle of nowhere and bury them. You could just use the same place to produce Solar Power. The pollution for Nuclear Power is worse than an oil fired plant. And it all shipped near where I live. How long does that pollution last? What's the half life of Uranium U-235. You can only do this so many times before you run out of places to safely bury it. What are you going to do, launch it to the moon for storage? Ever watch "Space, 1999"?

The ONLY reason the same vehicle in true electric cost more is the cost of the battery. The Battery costs have been going down for a few years but the EV version still costs more. Until the next batch. Are you aware that the Cat Converters for the gas rigs are going to cost about 30,000 a pound for some of the metals? This is why there is a rash of Cat Converter thefts going on. The Materials used make gold look cheap. When that finally becomes a factor (should happen on the 2022 models) all of a sudden the EV version cost the same or maybe slightly less.

The cost of repairs on the EV version is less than the Gas Version. Plus, the dependability rate is higher on the EV version. There are pluses and minuses with that. On the plus side, it costs less to operate for the operator. On the minus side, fewer parts and less parts breakage does impact some replacement and OEM parts suppliers. Imagine how the Widget Makers felt on the introduction of the Electric Car in the late 1800s.

 

[Toddsterpatriot]

never driven one myself. It seems they are more popular in China and the far east than in the west. Are they the future or not? What do you think?

Maybe if we added some new reliable electricity generation?

Nukes would work, wind and solar.......not so much.

That's the part I find both fatiguing and exasperating. It seems that the smug and righteous greenies like to extoll the virtues of electric vehicles. Eliminating CO2 produced by the catalytic converters that the greenies wanted 45 years ago would happen if we all switched to electric vehicles. This is like the ethanol project from years ago. Let's take good farm land and use it for fuel instead of food. And let's expend more energy to make that gallon of ethanol than it provides.

Charging 100s of millions of cars is just what the power grid needs. Hmm.. since the greenies wanted a moratorium on nuclear power plants 40 years ago after TMI, we'll just build another 150 coal or oil fired generating plants - greenhouse gas problem solved! And no children, wind and solar won't cut it, unless we empty out Arizona and New Mexico and make them "Power Plant" states with no population for starters.

This endless debate makes my head explode. Internal combustion engines and gasoline have grown up together - car makers wanting better or altered gas to make their engines run better and oil producers innovating additives and boosting octane to produce more horsepower and extend engine life. First we put lead in and then we take lead out. It's a symbiotic relationship and yes, a most profitable one for both parties.

We keep failing because we think we can manufacture a new energy source instead of just pumping it out of the ground. We've never been good at manufacturing an energy source. Look at the battery in your car - not much different than the one from 80 years ago. Newer batteries (Li Ion) are better yes, but they too will have to be replaced. Electric cars across the globe will require trillions of them and then trillions more to replace them when they stop taking a charge. Environmental impact, anyone?

Despite all the rhetoric I've heard, no one has come up with a real solution that scales to accommodate real demand. How about some brilliant scientist somewhere comes up with a way to use crude oil cleanly?
Aaarrrrgh!

Cheers

Okay, how about some facts to help your head explode.

The replacement on the electric battery in a Tesla is about 20 years minimum of normal driving.

The only reason we aren't readily able to recycle Lipos is that we have just started looking into it. We are 25 years behind EU. They recycle the batteries.

I am starting to see lipos replacing even wet cell batteries in cars for starting. The life expectancy of an Auto Battery for starting would be well past the lifetime of the car it's in. In fact, you could probably transfer it into the next 3 or 4 cars you buy as you wear out the gas guzzler.

Using just Natural Gas to produce Electricity, the production of that power source is only a small fraction of the pollution to make the same energy eqiv of gasoline. And the distrubution of the electric power is more efficient than the distrobution of Gasoline or Diesel.

You say that Nukes are the best way. Okay, but at the end of the fuel supply lifetime, what do you do with the fuel rods? You find a nice empty place in the middle of nowhere and bury them. You could just use the same place to produce Solar Power. The pollution for Nuclear Power is worse than an oil fired plant. And it all shipped near where I live. How long does that pollution last? What's the half life of Uranium U-235. You can only do this so many times before you run out of places to safely bury it. What are you going to do, launch it to the moon for storage? Ever watch "Space, 1999"?

The ONLY reason the same vehicle in true electric cost more is the cost of the battery. The Battery costs have been going down for a few years but the EV version still costs more. Until the next batch. Are you aware that the Cat Converters for the gas rigs are going to cost about 30,000 a pound for some of the metals? This is why there is a rash of Cat Converter thefts going on. The Materials used make gold look cheap. When that finally becomes a factor (should happen on the 2022 models) all of a sudden the EV version cost the same or maybe slightly less.

The cost of repairs on the EV version is less than the Gas Version. Plus, the dependability rate is higher on the EV version. There are pluses and minuses with that. On the plus side, it costs less to operate for the operator. On the minus side, fewer parts and less parts breakage does impact some replacement and OEM parts suppliers. Imagine how the Widget Makers felt on the introduction of the Electric Car in the late 1800s.

Using just Natural Gas to produce Electricity, the production of that power source is only a small fraction of the pollution to make the same energy eqiv of gasoline.

How much natural gas is the equivalent of a tank full of gasoline?

You say that Nukes are the best way. Okay, but at the end of the fuel supply lifetime, what do you do with the fuel rods?

The same thing we've been doing for the last 50 years?
Or we could store them in Harry Reid's house.....

The pollution for Nuclear Power is worse than an oil fired plant.

Is it? I thought AGW was worse?

And it all shipped near where I live.

I don't believe you. Link?

What's the half life of Uranium U-235.

You're worried about the U-235? Why? The half-life is over 700 million years.

Ever watch "Space, 1999"?

That show was awesome!!! It was also FICTION.

 

[Vrenn]

never driven one myself. It seems they are more popular in China and the far east than in the west. Are they the future or not? What do you think?

Maybe if we added some new reliable electricity generation?

Nukes would work, wind and solar.......not so much.

That's the part I find both fatiguing and exasperating. It seems that the smug and righteous greenies like to extoll the virtues of electric vehicles. Eliminating CO2 produced by the catalytic converters that the greenies wanted 45 years ago would happen if we all switched to electric vehicles. This is like the ethanol project from years ago. Let's take good farm land and use it for fuel instead of food. And let's expend more energy to make that gallon of ethanol than it provides.

Charging 100s of millions of cars is just what the power grid needs. Hmm.. since the greenies wanted a moratorium on nuclear power plants 40 years ago after TMI, we'll just build another 150 coal or oil fired generating plants - greenhouse gas problem solved! And no children, wind and solar won't cut it, unless we empty out Arizona and New Mexico and make them "Power Plant" states with no population for starters.

This endless debate makes my head explode. Internal combustion engines and gasoline have grown up together - car makers wanting better or altered gas to make their engines run better and oil producers innovating additives and boosting octane to produce more horsepower and extend engine life. First we put lead in and then we take lead out. It's a symbiotic relationship and yes, a most profitable one for both parties.

We keep failing because we think we can manufacture a new energy source instead of just pumping it out of the ground. We've never been good at manufacturing an energy source. Look at the battery in your car - not much different than the one from 80 years ago. Newer batteries (Li Ion) are better yes, but they too will have to be replaced. Electric cars across the globe will require trillions of them and then trillions more to replace them when they stop taking a charge. Environmental impact, anyone?

Despite all the rhetoric I've heard, no one has come up with a real solution that scales to accommodate real demand. How about some brilliant scientist somewhere comes up with a way to use crude oil cleanly?
Aaarrrrgh!

Cheers

Okay, how about some facts to help your head explode.

The replacement on the electric battery in a Tesla is about 20 years minimum of normal driving.

The only reason we aren't readily able to recycle Lipos is that we have just started looking into it. We are 25 years behind EU. They recycle the batteries.

I am starting to see lipos replacing even wet cell batteries in cars for starting. The life expectancy of an Auto Battery for starting would be well past the lifetime of the car it's in. In fact, you could probably transfer it into the next 3 or 4 cars you buy as you wear out the gas guzzler.

Using just Natural Gas to produce Electricity, the production of that power source is only a small fraction of the pollution to make the same energy eqiv of gasoline. And the distrubution of the electric power is more efficient than the distrobution of Gasoline or Diesel.

You say that Nukes are the best way. Okay, but at the end of the fuel supply lifetime, what do you do with the fuel rods? You find a nice empty place in the middle of nowhere and bury them. You could just use the same place to produce Solar Power. The pollution for Nuclear Power is worse than an oil fired plant. And it all shipped near where I live. How long does that pollution last? What's the half life of Uranium U-235. You can only do this so many times before you run out of places to safely bury it. What are you going to do, launch it to the moon for storage? Ever watch "Space, 1999"?

The ONLY reason the same vehicle in true electric cost more is the cost of the battery. The Battery costs have been going down for a few years but the EV version still costs more. Until the next batch. Are you aware that the Cat Converters for the gas rigs are going to cost about 30,000 a pound for some of the metals? This is why there is a rash of Cat Converter thefts going on. The Materials used make gold look cheap. When that finally becomes a factor (should happen on the 2022 models) all of a sudden the EV version cost the same or maybe slightly less.

The cost of repairs on the EV version is less than the Gas Version. Plus, the dependability rate is higher on the EV version. There are pluses and minuses with that. On the plus side, it costs less to operate for the operator. On the minus side, fewer parts and less parts breakage does impact some replacement and OEM parts suppliers. Imagine how the Widget Makers felt on the introduction of the Electric Car in the late 1800s.

Using just Natural Gas to produce Electricity, the production of that power source is only a small fraction of the pollution to make the same energy eqiv of gasoline.

How much natural gas is the equivalent of a tank full of gasoline?

You say that Nukes are the best way. Okay, but at the end of the fuel supply lifetime, what do you do with the fuel rods?

The same thing we've been doing for the last 50 years?
Or we could store them in Harry Reid's house.....

The pollution for Nuclear Power is worse than an oil fired plant.

Is it? I thought AGW was worse?

And it all shipped near where I live.

I don't believe you. Link?

What's the half life of Uranium U-235.

You're worried about the U-235? Why? The half-life is over 700 million years.

Ever watch "Space, 1999"?

That show was awesome!!! It was also FICTION.

Thank you for verifying my points. I wonder what NASA would say to launching our spent rods to the moon once we run out of space to store them for the next "70,000 years".
And I live in the west where people like you think the rods are out of sight, out of mind. And I don't need a frigging cite to prove to you something that is pretty much general knowledge.

 

[Toddsterpatriot]

never driven one myself. It seems they are more popular in China and the far east than in the west. Are they the future or not? What do you think?

Maybe if we added some new reliable electricity generation?

Nukes would work, wind and solar.......not so much.

That's the part I find both fatiguing and exasperating. It seems that the smug and righteous greenies like to extoll the virtues of electric vehicles. Eliminating CO2 produced by the catalytic converters that the greenies wanted 45 years ago would happen if we all switched to electric vehicles. This is like the ethanol project from years ago. Let's take good farm land and use it for fuel instead of food. And let's expend more energy to make that gallon of ethanol than it provides.

Charging 100s of millions of cars is just what the power grid needs. Hmm.. since the greenies wanted a moratorium on nuclear power plants 40 years ago after TMI, we'll just build another 150 coal or oil fired generating plants - greenhouse gas problem solved! And no children, wind and solar won't cut it, unless we empty out Arizona and New Mexico and make them "Power Plant" states with no population for starters.

This endless debate makes my head explode. Internal combustion engines and gasoline have grown up together - car makers wanting better or altered gas to make their engines run better and oil producers innovating additives and boosting octane to produce more horsepower and extend engine life. First we put lead in and then we take lead out. It's a symbiotic relationship and yes, a most profitable one for both parties.

We keep failing because we think we can manufacture a new energy source instead of just pumping it out of the ground. We've never been good at manufacturing an energy source. Look at the battery in your car - not much different than the one from 80 years ago. Newer batteries (Li Ion) are better yes, but they too will have to be replaced. Electric cars across the globe will require trillions of them and then trillions more to replace them when they stop taking a charge. Environmental impact, anyone?

Despite all the rhetoric I've heard, no one has come up with a real solution that scales to accommodate real demand. How about some brilliant scientist somewhere comes up with a way to use crude oil cleanly?
Aaarrrrgh!

Cheers

Okay, how about some facts to help your head explode.

The replacement on the electric battery in a Tesla is about 20 years minimum of normal driving.

The only reason we aren't readily able to recycle Lipos is that we have just started looking into it. We are 25 years behind EU. They recycle the batteries.

I am starting to see lipos replacing even wet cell batteries in cars for starting. The life expectancy of an Auto Battery for starting would be well past the lifetime of the car it's in. In fact, you could probably transfer it into the next 3 or 4 cars you buy as you wear out the gas guzzler.

Using just Natural Gas to produce Electricity, the production of that power source is only a small fraction of the pollution to make the same energy eqiv of gasoline. And the distrubution of the electric power is more efficient than the distrobution of Gasoline or Diesel.

You say that Nukes are the best way. Okay, but at the end of the fuel supply lifetime, what do you do with the fuel rods? You find a nice empty place in the middle of nowhere and bury them. You could just use the same place to produce Solar Power. The pollution for Nuclear Power is worse than an oil fired plant. And it all shipped near where I live. How long does that pollution last? What's the half life of Uranium U-235. You can only do this so many times before you run out of places to safely bury it. What are you going to do, launch it to the moon for storage? Ever watch "Space, 1999"?

The ONLY reason the same vehicle in true electric cost more is the cost of the battery. The Battery costs have been going down for a few years but the EV version still costs more. Until the next batch. Are you aware that the Cat Converters for the gas rigs are going to cost about 30,000 a pound for some of the metals? This is why there is a rash of Cat Converter thefts going on. The Materials used make gold look cheap. When that finally becomes a factor (should happen on the 2022 models) all of a sudden the EV version cost the same or maybe slightly less.

The cost of repairs on the EV version is less than the Gas Version. Plus, the dependability rate is higher on the EV version. There are pluses and minuses with that. On the plus side, it costs less to operate for the operator. On the minus side, fewer parts and less parts breakage does impact some replacement and OEM parts suppliers. Imagine how the Widget Makers felt on the introduction of the Electric Car in the late 1800s.

Using just Natural Gas to produce Electricity, the production of that power source is only a small fraction of the pollution to make the same energy eqiv of gasoline.

How much natural gas is the equivalent of a tank full of gasoline?

You say that Nukes are the best way. Okay, but at the end of the fuel supply lifetime, what do you do with the fuel rods?

The same thing we've been doing for the last 50 years?
Or we could store them in Harry Reid's house.....

The pollution for Nuclear Power is worse than an oil fired plant.

Is it? I thought AGW was worse?

And it all shipped near where I live.

I don't believe you. Link?

What's the half life of Uranium U-235.

You're worried about the U-235? Why? The half-life is over 700 million years.

Ever watch "Space, 1999"?

That show was awesome!!! It was also FICTION.

Thank you for verifying my points. I wonder what NASA would say to launching our spent rods to the moon once we run out of space to store them for the next "70,000 years".
And I live in the west where people like you think the rods are out of sight, out of mind. And I don't need a frigging cite to prove to you something that is pretty much general knowledge.

Thank you for verifying my points.

Which ones do you feel I verified?

I wonder what NASA would say to launching our spent rods to the moon once we run out of space to store them for the next "70,000 years".

Why would we run out of space? Why would launching them be safer?

And I live in the west where people like you think the rods are out of sight, out of mind.

You lied. I know.

And I don't need a frigging cite to prove to you something that is pretty much general knowledge.

You're funny. Not real bright.

 

[percysunshine]

never driven one myself. It seems they are more popular in China and the far east than in the west. Are they the future or not? What do you think?

When the electric grid shuts down, the internal combustion engine still works.

 

[Vrenn]

never driven one myself. It seems they are more popular in China and the far east than in the west. Are they the future or not? What do you think?

When the electric grid shuts down, the internal combustion engine still works.

So does my EV. I have other methods to recharge it than the power grid. Solar works okay.

 

[there4eyeM]

never driven one myself. It seems they are more popular in China and the far east than in the west. Are they the future or not? What do you think?

When the electric grid shuts down, the internal combustion engine still works.

So does my EV. I have other methods to recharge it than the power grid. Solar works okay.

De-centralization and energy independence is a very worthy goal. It is an achievable goal. Imagination and a little audacity are all it requires. America used to have these.

 

[fncceo]

So I should buy a Tesla why?

You won't be given a choice.

 

[fncceo]

So does my EV. I have other methods to recharge it than the power grid. Solar works okay.

That will work fine. Waiting 24 hours to charge your car shouldn't be an issue.

 

[ProfessorHawthorne]

never driven one myself. It seems they are more popular in China and the far east than in the west. Are they the future or not? What do you think?

Maybe if we added some new reliable electricity generation?

Nukes would work, wind and solar.......not so much.

That's the part I find both fatiguing and exasperating. It seems that the smug and righteous greenies like to extoll the virtues of electric vehicles. Eliminating CO2 produced by the catalytic converters that the greenies wanted 45 years ago would happen if we all switched to electric vehicles. This is like the ethanol project from years ago. Let's take good farm land and use it for fuel instead of food. And let's expend more energy to make that gallon of ethanol than it provides.

Charging 100s of millions of cars is just what the power grid needs. Hmm.. since the greenies wanted a moratorium on nuclear power plants 40 years ago after TMI, we'll just build another 150 coal or oil fired generating plants - greenhouse gas problem solved! And no children, wind and solar won't cut it, unless we empty out Arizona and New Mexico and make them "Power Plant" states with no population for starters.

This endless debate makes my head explode. Internal combustion engines and gasoline have grown up together - car makers wanting better or altered gas to make their engines run better and oil producers innovating additives and boosting octane to produce more horsepower and extend engine life. First we put lead in and then we take lead out. It's a symbiotic relationship and yes, a most profitable one for both parties.

We keep failing because we think we can manufacture a new energy source instead of just pumping it out of the ground. We've never been good at manufacturing an energy source. Look at the battery in your car - not much different than the one from 80 years ago. Newer batteries (Li Ion) are better yes, but they too will have to be replaced. Electric cars across the globe will require trillions of them and then trillions more to replace them when they stop taking a charge. Environmental impact, anyone?

Despite all the rhetoric I've heard, no one has come up with a real solution that scales to accommodate real demand. How about some brilliant scientist somewhere comes up with a way to use crude oil cleanly?
Aaarrrrgh!

Cheers

Okay, how about some facts to help your head explode.

The replacement on the electric battery in a Tesla is about 20 years minimum of normal driving.

The only reason we aren't readily able to recycle Lipos is that we have just started looking into it. We are 25 years behind EU. They recycle the batteries.

I am starting to see lipos replacing even wet cell batteries in cars for starting. The life expectancy of an Auto Battery for starting would be well past the lifetime of the car it's in. In fact, you could probably transfer it into the next 3 or 4 cars you buy as you wear out the gas guzzler.

Using just Natural Gas to produce Electricity, the production of that power source is only a small fraction of the pollution to make the same energy eqiv of gasoline. And the distrubution of the electric power is more efficient than the distrobution of Gasoline or Diesel.

You say that Nukes are the best way. Okay, but at the end of the fuel supply lifetime, what do you do with the fuel rods? You find a nice empty place in the middle of nowhere and bury them. You could just use the same place to produce Solar Power. The pollution for Nuclear Power is worse than an oil fired plant. And it all shipped near where I live. How long does that pollution last? What's the half life of Uranium U-235. You can only do this so many times before you run out of places to safely bury it. What are you going to do, launch it to the moon for storage? Ever watch "Space, 1999"?

The ONLY reason the same vehicle in true electric cost more is the cost of the battery. The Battery costs have been going down for a few years but the EV version still costs more. Until the next batch. Are you aware that the Cat Converters for the gas rigs are going to cost about 30,000 a pound for some of the metals? This is why there is a rash of Cat Converter thefts going on. The Materials used make gold look cheap. When that finally becomes a factor (should happen on the 2022 models) all of a sudden the EV version cost the same or maybe slightly less.

The cost of repairs on the EV version is less than the Gas Version. Plus, the dependability rate is higher on the EV version. There are pluses and minuses with that. On the plus side, it costs less to operate for the operator. On the minus side, fewer parts and less parts breakage does impact some replacement and OEM parts suppliers. Imagine how the Widget Makers felt on the introduction of the Electric Car in the late 1800s.

<<Okay, how about some facts to help your head explode.>>

Facts! I like facts. Facts can be informative. Facts can be enlightening. Facts can be entertaining, especially when they are massaged to fit a narrative.

<<The replacement on the electric battery in a Tesla is about 20 years minimum of normal driving.
I am starting to see lipos replacing even wet cell batteries in cars for starting. The life expectancy of an Auto Battery for starting would be well past the lifetime of the car it's in. In fact, you could probably transfer it into the next 3 or 4 cars you buy as you wear out the gas guzzler.>>

I'm quite familiar with lithium battery chemistry having been an EE for over 40 years. There are numerous variations of compounds used to make these batteries. Their life expectancies have absolutely nothing to do with time. Throwing around numbers like 10 or 20 years is great for promoting their use. The simple fact is these battery's lifespan is dictated only by the number of charge/discharge cycles. Actually, I'm amazed at even the 10 year number. I have not yet looked for the fine print that usually includes specific qualifiers for this number. One of the newer chemistries available is LiFePO4 and it offers up to 2000 charge cycles. Assuming a daily charge cycle, this would work out to about 6 years. I don't believe LiFePO4 batteries are being used in EVs right now. Of course, you can increase the number of cycles with an aggressive BMS - limiting depth of discharge to 40 or 50% along with top and bottom cell balancing. The downside is you have to increase the pack's capacity to offset the unused charge.

You are mistaken to think that the lithium replacements for SLA's are some kind of super battery that will last forever. These batteries are subject to the same charge/discharge cycle limit. They will last longer than a regular SLA in a standard car because they would only be used for starting the car as SLAs do.

Keep in mind that these lithium batteries used in EVs are similar to the ones in your cellphone and subject to the same loss of capacity over time. Lithium, like SLAs, are sensitive to temperature. The colder it gets, the more the capacity diminishes. It's a chemical reaction in lithium batteries as in SLAs, alkaline, carbon zinc, etc.
Do a little research on lithium batteries and you'll see that while they offer a vast improvement in power density per kg, they are not magical.

<<Using just Natural Gas to produce Electricity, the production of that power source is only a small fraction of the pollution to make the same energy eqiv of gasoline. And the distrubution of the electric power is more efficient than the distrobution of Gasoline or Diesel.>>

I'm not sure of the point you are trying to make here. I also don't see how you would know the distribution of electricity for EVs would be more efficient since hardly any infrastructure for them exists. If you just mean charging them at home, fine. I think though that far more charging stations will be needed before most people buy into EVs.

<<You say that Nukes are the best way. Okay, but at the end of the fuel supply lifetime, what do you do with the fuel rods? You find a nice empty place in the middle of nowhere and bury them. You could just use the same place to produce Solar Power. The pollution for Nuclear Power is worse than an oil fired plant. And it all shipped near where I live. How long does that pollution last? What's the half life of Uranium U-235. You can only do this so many times before you run out of places to safely bury it. What are you going to do, launch it to the moon for storage? Ever watch "Space, 1999"?>>

Actually, if your read my post, I never said nuclear power was the answer. That was the whole point of my post. The greenies have declared EVs as the answer while ignoring the fact that recharging these vehicles will require electricity we are not quite ready to produce. I merely provided a framework as to why we don't have any new nuclear power plants.

As to pollution, are you going after greenhouse gas or ancillary by-products? Nuclear plants emit no CO2. If you think spent nuclear material is the pollution, this has been addressed over the last 70 years. There is far more spent material being processed from other nuclear operations than from power plants. France seems to be able to handle it - they get most of their electricity from nuclear.

<<The cost of repairs on the EV version is less than the Gas Version. Plus, the dependability rate is higher on the EV version. There are pluses and minuses with that. On the plus side, it costs less to operate for the operator. On the minus side, fewer parts and less parts breakage does impact some replacement and OEM parts suppliers. Imagine how the Widget Makers felt on the introduction of the Electric Car in the late 1800s.>>

Once again, if you read my post, I never said I was anti-EV nor do I dispute that they can be a viable alternative/replacement for current vehicles. I'm not ready to believe that it will cost less to buy or maintain. I'll believe it when I see it. There is quite a bit more to the issue than replacing the engine with an electric motor and throwing a battery pack in. As I said, infrastructure for charging stations, enough available power on the grid to support EVs and most of all, considerations of the global supply chain, especially for the batteries.

I tend not to be anti-this or pro-that until I have all the relevant data - accurate data, not data provided by those with a specific agenda. According to the Nuclear Energy Institute, it requires 100 times the land area for a wind farm that would generate the same power a one nuclear plant. One of the greenie organizations says we only need to close all the golf courses in America and make them wind farms.

I'm sure there is a viable answer in there somewhere - I haven't found it yet. Do I believe either one of the above? No. I won't know the answer until I find multiple sources that don't conflict with one another and I deem the sources credible.

Cheers

 

[fncceo]

You find a nice empty place in the middle of nowhere and bury them.

India will take them, they don't care about three eyed fish.

 

[JoeMoma]

You find a nice empty place in the middle of nowhere and bury them.

India will take them, they don't care about three eyed fish.

I usually cut the heads off before eating them anyway!

 

[Vrenn]

So I should buy a Tesla why?

You won't be given a choice.

You do have a choice. You can use public transportation, ride a bike, walk, have it delivered, row your boat.... And you have the right to whine about it all as well, Karen.