Education a right ?

[SpidermanTuba]

I don't recall anything about the "right to life liberty and the pursuit of happiness...with education" being in the Declaration of Independence....or the Constitution.

I guess you don't remember the 9th amendment then.

Where is education mentioned in the 9th amendment?

You don't even get the point of the 9th amendment, do you?

 

[SpidermanTuba]

Most of us have the LEGAL RIGHT to an education as outlined by our STATE CONSTITUTIONS, or by laws written by our states for compulsory education.

Per usual, I'll note that until we agee on what the meaning of the word RIGHTS really is, we cannot truly have a rational discussion about them.

Here here! A correct answer!

The fact that a right is not particularly enumerated in the Constitution does not mean it doesn't exist, in fact, the 9th amendment says just as much. Some rights are left to the States to protect - education is one of them.

 

[SpidermanTuba]

Just smart and educated, I guess.

Wow.

Say.....you progressive liberal socialists just might have something going on there.....

If edsmuckation is a "right"....meaning the govt. must provide me with one.....then I'm sure other basic "human rights" in that UN bleeding heart document must ALSO be in existence....

like a "right" to free food, a "right" to free housing, a "right" to free healthcare, a "right" to free utilities, a "right" to free trans, a "right" to free clothes, etc, etc....


....I think I'll just take all those "rights" I'm entitled to and just kick back and go fishing...

Indeed.

Article 25.

* (1) Everyone has the right to a standard of living adequate for the health and well-being of himself and of his family, including food, clothing, housing and medical care and necessary social services, and the right to security in the event of unemployment, sickness, disability, widowhood, old age or other lack of livelihood in circumstances beyond his control.
* (2) Motherhood and childhood are entitled to special care and assistance. All children, whether born in or out of wedlock, shall enjoy the same social protection.

 

[The Rabbi]

I guess you don't remember the 9th amendment then.

Where is education mentioned in the 9th amendment?

You don't even get the point of the 9th amendment, do you?

The question is whether you do.
Please point out where education is mentioned in the 9A. If you can do that then I'll concede you are right.

 

[G.T.]

Where is education mentioned in the 9th amendment?

You don't even get the point of the 9th amendment, do you?

The question is whether you do.
Please point out where education is mentioned in the 9A. If you can do that then I'll concede you are right.

I believe he's saying that State Governments have ALL granted Education as being a right, and the 9th protects rights not enumerated in 1-8 and so by proxy #9 protects Education as a Right already. I think that's what he means, but I dunno........I don't follow 100%.

 

[The Rabbi]

You don't even get the point of the 9th amendment, do you?

The question is whether you do.
Please point out where education is mentioned in the 9A. If you can do that then I'll concede you are right.

I believe he's saying that State Governments have ALL granted Education as being a right, and the 9th protects rights not enumerated in 1-8 and so by proxy #9 protects Education as a Right already. I think that's what he means, but I dunno........I don't follow 100%.

If he's saying that then he's wrong. My home state's constitution says no such thing.
But even if it did, that is an enacted right, not a natural right.

I thought he was saying that education is a right and the 9th speaks about other rights. So education must be one of them.
But on that view there is nothing that could be construed as a right that would not be covered under the 9th. So maybe the 9th guarantees me the right to a cold beer when it gets hot.

 

[Nonelitist]

Not a right.

 

[chikenwing]

Most of us have the LEGAL RIGHT to an education as outlined by our STATE CONSTITUTIONS, or by laws written by our states for compulsory education.

Per usual, I'll note that until we agee on what the meaning of the word RIGHTS really is, we cannot truly have a rational discussion about them.

Must be a real quandary for the truant officer.

Right and compulsory in the same sentence,very interesting.

 

[NYcarbineer]

Actually they did.
Please post any evidence that Blacks did not have inalienable rights as whites did.

How about the evidence that if you were a black person born in South Carolina in, say, 1820, the child of slaves, you would not have the unalienable right of LIBERTY, as in life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness, which as I recall are the explicitly stated unalienable rights in the D of I.

How about answering the question, fucktard? Slaves obviously lacked liberty. That is a tautology.
But your claim was that only whites enjoyed rights of life liberty and pursuit of happiness. I am challenging you for proof of that statement. And you are failing.

If slaves didn't have the right to liberty they didn't have the right to liberty. What more needs to be said? Whites could not be enslaved in pre-emancipation USA.

 

[NYcarbineer]

The question is whether you do.
Please point out where education is mentioned in the 9A. If you can do that then I'll concede you are right.

I believe he's saying that State Governments have ALL granted Education as being a right, and the 9th protects rights not enumerated in 1-8 and so by proxy #9 protects Education as a Right already. I think that's what he means, but I dunno........I don't follow 100%.

If he's saying that then he's wrong. My home state's constitution says no such thing.
But even if it did, that is an enacted right, not a natural right.

I thought he was saying that education is a right and the 9th speaks about other rights. So education must be one of them.
But on that view there is nothing that could be construed as a right that would not be covered under the 9th. So maybe the 9th guarantees me the right to a cold beer when it gets hot.

Section 12. The state of Tennessee recognizes the inherent value of education
and encourages its support. The General Assembly shall provide for the maintenance,
support and eligibility standards of a system of free public schools.

...and I'm guessing that no child who's a legal resident of TN can be legally denied access to that free public school system, therefore, education is a right in Tennessee.

 

[The Rabbi]

How about the evidence that if you were a black person born in South Carolina in, say, 1820, the child of slaves, you would not have the unalienable right of LIBERTY, as in life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness, which as I recall are the explicitly stated unalienable rights in the D of I.

How about answering the question, fucktard? Slaves obviously lacked liberty. That is a tautology.
But your claim was that only whites enjoyed rights of life liberty and pursuit of happiness. I am challenging you for proof of that statement. And you are failing.

If slaves didn't have the right to liberty they didn't have the right to liberty. What more needs to be said? Whites could not be enslaved in pre-emancipation USA.

Where is the right to liberty in the U.S. Constitution?
ANd you are completely wrong about white not being slaves. Ever hear of indentured servants? How about freed Blacks?

 

[The Rabbi]

I believe he's saying that State Governments have ALL granted Education as being a right, and the 9th protects rights not enumerated in 1-8 and so by proxy #9 protects Education as a Right already. I think that's what he means, but I dunno........I don't follow 100%.

If he's saying that then he's wrong. My home state's constitution says no such thing.
But even if it did, that is an enacted right, not a natural right.

I thought he was saying that education is a right and the 9th speaks about other rights. So education must be one of them.
But on that view there is nothing that could be construed as a right that would not be covered under the 9th. So maybe the 9th guarantees me the right to a cold beer when it gets hot.

Section 12. The state of Tennessee recognizes the inherent value of education
and encourages its support. The General Assembly shall provide for the maintenance,
support and eligibility standards of a system of free public schools.

...and I'm guessing that no child who's a legal resident of TN can be legally denied access to that free public school system, therefore, education is a right in Tennessee.

I recognize the inherent value of beer. That doesnt make it a right. There is no language in the TN state constitution that says education is a right.
And children are suspended from school or expelled all the time. In any case their ability to attend school originates in state law. Change the law and they would not be able to.

 

[NYcarbineer]

How about answering the question, fucktard? Slaves obviously lacked liberty. That is a tautology.
But your claim was that only whites enjoyed rights of life liberty and pursuit of happiness. I am challenging you for proof of that statement. And you are failing.

If slaves didn't have the right to liberty they didn't have the right to liberty. What more needs to be said? Whites could not be enslaved in pre-emancipation USA.

Where is the right to liberty in the U.S. Constitution?
ANd you are completely wrong about white not being slaves. Ever hear of indentured servants? How about freed Blacks?

You've lost track of the conversation. I was talking about founders who signed/wrote the Declaration of Independence proclaiming inalienable rights of life liberty and the pursuit of happiness subsequently denying the right of liberty to black slaves.

Ironically, the Declaration of Independence is a moral justification for the bloody Nat Turner rebellion and what would have been the very bloody John Brown plan.

Brown gets hanged for treason in the ultimate irony.

 

[The Rabbi]

If slaves didn't have the right to liberty they didn't have the right to liberty. What more needs to be said? Whites could not be enslaved in pre-emancipation USA.

Where is the right to liberty in the U.S. Constitution?
ANd you are completely wrong about white not being slaves. Ever hear of indentured servants? How about freed Blacks?

You've lost track of the conversation. I was talking about founders who signed/wrote the Declaration of Independence proclaiming inalienable rights of life liberty and the pursuit of happiness subsequently denying the right of liberty to black slaves.

Ironically, the Declaration of Independence is a moral justification for the bloody Nat Turner rebellion and what would have been the very bloody John Brown plan.

Brown gets hanged for treason in the ultimate irony.

Some did. SOme didnt. Many freed their slaves either during their lives or in their wills. They were aware of the contradiction.

 

[antagon]

recognizing black people as humans for the purposes of rights was a deal-breaker at the convention. id agree with rabbi that there was a great deal of awareness of the contradiction, but it was either seen as justified or a necessary evil to get the union off the ground.

i dont think any of those men were ready for black men expressing their freedom of assembly and right to bear arms.

 

[The Rabbi]

recognizing black people as humans for the purposes of rights was a deal-breaker at the convention. id agree with rabbi that there was a great deal of awareness of the contradiction, but it was either seen as justified or a necessary evil to get the union off the ground.

i dont think any of those men were ready for black men expressing their freedom of assembly and right to bear arms.

The over-riding fear in those days was a black rebellion. And there was some foundation to it. This is the original impetus for gun control, btw.

 

[rikules]

If he's saying that then he's wrong. My home state's constitution says no such thing.
But even if it did, that is an enacted right, not a natural right.

I thought he was saying that education is a right and the 9th speaks about other rights. So education must be one of them.
But on that view there is nothing that could be construed as a right that would not be covered under the 9th. So maybe the 9th guarantees me the right to a cold beer when it gets hot.

Section 12. The state of Tennessee recognizes the inherent value of education
and encourages its support. The General Assembly shall provide for the maintenance,
support and eligibility standards of a system of free public schools.

...and I'm guessing that no child who's a legal resident of TN can be legally denied access to that free public school system, therefore, education is a right in Tennessee.

I recognize the inherent value of beer. That doesnt make it a right. There is no language in the TN state constitution that says education is a right.
And children are suspended from school or expelled all the time. In any case their ability to attend school originates in state law. Change the law and they would not be able to.

I get confused

sometimes cons get all hyped up about America, declaring "America is GREAT because WE HAVE RIGHTS!"

but here they are telling us that other than guns and voting....we have NO rights at all!

and they seem happy about it....

seems to me that the greatness of a country should be measured by how many rights and privileges the people have

and not by how many they DON'T have

I find the fact that cons delight in our lack of rights to be disturbing

and makes me wonder....

if, other than guns and voting, we don't actually have any rights......
why do cons whine so much about "our rights are being taken away from us"?

 

[The Rabbi]

Section 12. The state of Tennessee recognizes the inherent value of education
and encourages its support. The General Assembly shall provide for the maintenance,
support and eligibility standards of a system of free public schools.

...and I'm guessing that no child who's a legal resident of TN can be legally denied access to that free public school system, therefore, education is a right in Tennessee.

I recognize the inherent value of beer. That doesnt make it a right. There is no language in the TN state constitution that says education is a right.
And children are suspended from school or expelled all the time. In any case their ability to attend school originates in state law. Change the law and they would not be able to.

I get confused

sometimes cons get all hyped up about America, declaring "America is GREAT because WE HAVE RIGHTS!"

but here they are telling us that other than guns and voting....we have NO rights at all!

and they seem happy about it....

seems to me that the greatness of a country should be measured by how many rights and privileges the people have

and not by how many they DON'T have

I find the fact that cons delight in our lack of rights to be disturbing

and makes me wonder....

if, other than guns and voting, we don't actually have any rights......
why do cons whine so much about "our rights are being taken away from us"?

Not surprisingly you misunderstand the entire conversation.
My position is not that we don't have rights. We obviously do. And it does make America great that we do.
My position is the origin of those rights. Some people want to say that these rights are "inherent" and "inalienable", like they came from the Tooth Fairy or something. I say that is nonsense, and obviously so. Rights come from the society around them and originate in a country's history and outlook.
The corollary of what I think is that rights are constantly under attack, chiefly by the government that finds them inconvenient in promoting its agenda--whatever that agenda is. So if we do not fight for our rights we will find them gone. No amount of bleating about inherent and inalienable will salvage them.

 

[Murf76]

I get confused

sometimes cons get all hyped up about America, declaring "America is GREAT because WE HAVE RIGHTS!"

but here they are telling us that other than guns and voting....we have NO rights at all!

and they seem happy about it....

seems to me that the greatness of a country should be measured by how many rights and privileges the people have

and not by how many they DON'T have

I find the fact that cons delight in our lack of rights to be disturbing

and makes me wonder....

if, other than guns and voting, we don't actually have any rights......
why do cons whine so much about "our rights are being taken away from us"?

There's nothing complicated about it. You don't have a "right" to the labor or property (money) of your fellow citizens. It's just that simple.
If you are not self-fruitful in the matter of education or healthcare, if you can't provide it to yourself without robbing your neighbor... then they aren't "unalienable rights".

What would make you think for even a minute that the rest of us are born owing you something?

 

[Murf76]

Not surprisingly you misunderstand the entire conversation.
My position is not that we don't have rights. We obviously do. And it does make America great that we do.
My position is the origin of those rights. Some people want to say that these rights are "inherent" and "inalienable", like they came from the Tooth Fairy or something. I say that is nonsense, and obviously so. Rights come from the society around them and originate in a country's history and outlook.
The corollary of what I think is that rights are constantly under attack, chiefly by the government that finds them inconvenient in promoting its agenda--whatever that agenda is. So if we do not fight for our rights we will find them gone. No amount of bleating about inherent and inalienable will salvage them.

Well, that's your opinion. And you have an "unalienable right" to it, since you were able to think it up all by yourself without impeding the rights of others.

But bear in mind, that your "fight" would be just as arbitrary as your man-given "rights" are. What can be given to you by another man, can be taken away just as easily and with the same righteousness of authority. It's not wrong for the government to take your freedom or your property, if these things already belonged first to the government. And clearly, if they can give these things to you, then they are theirs first to give and not yours inherently.

For my part, I recognize no prior claim to my own humanity. Even God has graced me with Free Will over it, to succeed or fail as I will.