Don’t ceiling deal reached in principle

[DudleySmith]

Both PArties will always agree that the real problem is workers and what remains of the middle class have way too much money and don't work nearly enough hours a week, and have it way too good, so of course they will agree to keep increasing bennies for financial sector bookies and increase tax burdens on workers and cut programs that benefit the uppity proles and small business.

 

[multivita-man]

This can will get kicked down the road and the Dems will think they're winning and winning until we can no longer keep up with debt service costs and there's no more money for Medicare/Medicaid and SS. Republicans, OTOH, will take care of their oligarchs so that we can't fund anything except a watered down military and a decaying transportation infrastructure. They'll destroy the civil service and turn the government into a patronage system like it was for the first 100 or so years of this country's existence. This country's fucked, just doesn't know it yet.

 

[georgephillip]

"The game hasn’t changed much since the Bill Clinton and Newt Gingrich agreements of 1995, or Barack Obama’s attempt at a 'grand bargain' with republicans in 2011.

"Dissent within republican ranks saved cuts to entitlement programs and Congressional Black Caucus leader Emmanuel Cleaver dubbed the proposals as a 'sugar coated satan sandwich' and later added,

"This debt deal is antithetical to everything the great religions of the world teach, which is take care of the poor, aged, vulnerable.

"Now the highest ranking member of the CBC, Minority Leader Hakeem Jeffries, says that democrats are willing to freeze spending, which would actually cut $1 trillion from the budget over a ten-year period. His justification is all too familiar,

"We’re willing to discuss freezing spending at current levels. That’s an inherently reasonable position many in our party might even be uncomfortable with, but President Biden recognizes we’re in a divided government situation."

Biden’s debt ceiling betrayal is a Democratic Party tradition | MR Online

Biden's willingness to cut deals goes back decades.
When Clinton caved to Newt, Biden was fully supportive:

Fact Check: Joe Biden Has Advocated Cutting Social Security for 40 Years

"When I argued that we should freeze federal spending, I meant Social Security as well. I meant Medicare and Medicaid. I meant veterans’ benefits. I meant every single solitary thing in the government. And I not only tried it once, I tried it twice, I tried it a third time, and I tried it a fourth time."

 

[multivita-man]

"The game hasn’t changed much since the Bill Clinton and Newt Gingrich agreements of 1995, or Barack Obama’s attempt at a 'grand bargain' with republicans in 2011.

"Dissent within republican ranks saved cuts to entitlement programs and Congressional Black Caucus leader Emmanuel Cleaver dubbed the proposals as a 'sugar coated satan sandwich' and later added,


"Now the highest ranking member of the CBC, Minority Leader Hakeem Jeffries, says that democrats are willing to freeze spending, which would actually cut $1 trillion from the budget over a ten-year period. His justification is all too familiar,



Biden’s debt ceiling betrayal is a Democratic Party tradition | MR Online

Biden's willingness to cut deals goes back decades.
When Clinton caved to Newt, Biden was fully supportive:

Fact Check: Joe Biden Has Advocated Cutting Social Security for 40 Years

"When I argued that we should freeze federal spending, I meant Social Security as well. I meant Medicare and Medicaid. I meant veterans’ benefits. I meant every single solitary thing in the government. And I not only tried it once, I tried it twice, I tried it a third time, and I tried it a fourth time."

The big mistake Biden - and frankly other Dem leaders - made was in assuming that the Republicans would get blamed for anything that came close to a debt default. They could have raised the $ amount of the ceiling in the lame duck session last year, but chose not to for reasons that I don't understand.

The Democrats are just weak. Too afraid to stand up for what they believe in. I'm not sure they even have any core beliefs. They can blame Manchin and Sinema all they want, but they're just as corrupt and corporate as the Republicans are in some ways.

 

[Foul Owl]

Still trying to figure out what a 'Don't Ceiling' is...

 

[multivita-man]

Still trying to figure out what a 'Don't Ceiling' is...

Yeah the two parties will likely not reach an agreement on the don't ceiling anytime soon. Guess that means we'll default on our don't. The holders of U.S. don't securities are gonna be flippin mad.

 

[skews13]

Did anybody think that the Republicans (that we were so glad taking over the House) would do anything other than give into the Democrats and incur more debt?

Whenever the Democrats do their destruction you can bet there will be Republicans that will help them.

We see it time and time again.

All the Republicans had to do was say was "no more debt, stop spending so much money" but they didn't have the courage to do it.

Our country is fucked. We are not going to unfuck it the the ballot box by electing RINOs over the Democrat assholes.

The same RINO's under Trump that ran up $9 Trillion in 4 years?

Most of it going to Elon Musk, Jeff Bezos, The Waltons, The Uhlines, and the Mercers, The Pentagon, Banks, and oil companies?

Those RINO's?

 

[Flash]

The same RINO's under Trump that ran up $9 Trillion in 4 years?

Most of it going to Elon Musk, Jeff Bezos, The Waltons, The Uhlines, and the Mercers, The Pentagon, Banks, and oil companies?

Those RINO's?

Debt is bad no matter who runs it up like when The Worthless Negro gave us $10 trillion in debt with nothing to show for it but increased poverty, decreased family income and dismal economic growth.

If you aren't just talking out your filthy partisan ass and you really think debt is bad like I do then join me in calling for the goddamn government to stop spending so much more money than it takes in.

Put your money where your mouth is instead of being a Moon Bat jerk.

 

[multivita-man]

Debt is bad no matter who runs it up

Public debt per se isn't bad. We couldn't have won two world wars without it. The Great Depression might have lasted another decade without public debt. The problem is when debt becomes bigger than a country's domestic product or when it's spent on things that aren't useful (see Japan 1980s-90s and China 1979 - now). Debt is also bad when people begin to question the ability of a regime to handle its most fundamental issues (see the U.S. the last 20 years).

like when The Worthless Negro gave us $10 trillion in debt with nothing to show for it but increased poverty, decreased family income and dismal economic growth.

Financial crises have consequences, and that happened before Obama was elected. That was your magic white boy's handy work. The debt 'Obama' rang up was incurred by events that preceded his election. Congress and Bush both agreed to bail out the financial system, but whereas Obama wanted to raise taxes on upper income earners to offset the decline in tax revenue, Republicans did not.

If you aren't just talking out your filthy partisan ass and you really think debt is bad like I do then join me in calling for the goddamn government to stop spending so much more money than it takes in.

Raise capital gains, inheritance taxes, and other schemes the wealthy employ and you've got a deal. Raise the age for SS and Medicare while we're at it.

 

[Flash]

Public debt per se isn't bad.



Raise capital gains, inheritance taxes, and other schemes the wealthy employ and you've got a deal. Raise the age for SS and Medicare while we're at it.

You stupid confused Libtards always think that the answer to debt is raising more taxes and that is stupid.

The answer is to spend less money. The government doesn't have to spend near as much money as it does. We don't need all these worthless failed alphabet agencies. Like the Department of Education that spends tons of money each year but yet education is failing in the US,

We don't need welfare, grants, entitlements, bailouts or any of that other transfer of money from those who earn it to those that don't earn it. We don't need to be giving money to the goddamn Illegals or paying for EV charging stations or the hundreds of other useless things the government does.

The US spends more money on the cost of government at the Federal level than the GDP of all but two other countries on earth. The you add in the State and Locals and that doubles the cost of government. The cost of government in the US is almost 40% of the GDP and (with over $50 trillion in public debt) and that is a disaster.

 

[multivita-man]

You stupid confused Libtards always think that the answer to debt is raising more taxes and that is stupid.

Well, it's both. I do not disagree that right now, the spending is unrealistic relative to the revenue. I'm just saying that we can increase the revenue through taxation of people who can afford paying more in taxes.

The answer is to spend less money. The government doesn't have to spend near as much money as it does. We don't need all these worthless failed alphabet agencies. Like the Department of Education that spends tons of money each year but yet education is failing in the US,

It depends. Spending less money on the IRS for example would backfire; we'd lose tax revenue and be deeper in the hole. Spending less money on transportation and other critical infrastructure would also lead to economic disruption, which would mean less revenue. Spending money on some goofy airport or highway to nowhere so that Rep or Sen Jackass can bring $ and jobs back to his district...yeah, cut that shit.

We don't need welfare, grants, entitlements, bailouts or any of that other transfer of money from those who earn it to those that don't earn it. We don't need to be giving money to the goddamn Illegals or paying for EV charging stations or the hundreds of other useless things the government does.

The US spends more money on the cost of government at the Federal level than the GDP of all but two other countries on earth. The you add in the State and Locals and that doubles the cost of government. The cost of government in the US is almost 40% of the GDP and (with over $50 trillion in public debt) and that is a disaster.

Probably 1/2 of all spending is on healthcare and social security. Those are popular programs. Maybe we could save by having insurance and healthcare mandates for the private sector. Everyone has to get medical insurance and hospitals and insurers have to pay for our care.

Beyond that, maybe turn welfare into a scheme that pays out a flat amount per household, not per child.

 

[Flash]

Well, it's both. I do not disagree that right now, the spending is unrealistic relative to the revenue. I'm just saying that we can increase the revenue through taxation of people who can afford paying more in taxes.



It depends. Spending less money on the IRS for example would backfire; we'd lose tax revenue and be deeper in the hole. Spending less money on transportation and other critical infrastructure would also lead to economic disruption, which would mean less revenue. Spending money on some goofy airport or highway to nowhere so that Rep or Sen Jackass can bring $ and jobs back to his district...yeah, cut that shit.



Probably 1/2 of all spending is on healthcare and social security. Those are popular programs. Maybe we could save by having insurance and healthcare mandates for the private sector. Everyone has to get medical insurance and hospitals and insurers have to pay for our care.

Beyond that, maybe turn welfare into a scheme that pays out a flat amount per household, not per child.

See, you are doing the same thing that all Liberals do that caused us to be in the mess we are in now.

You are trying to justify big government spending and you are fine with more taxation to pay for it.

By the way, the more money the filthy ass government takes out of the productive economy the less is available for productive things.

The US Federal government should be about $1.5 trillion a year, not $7 trillion this jackass Potatohead wants.

The only things the Federal government should be doing is providing for defense, courts, state department, Congress, veterans, the Presidency, patents, and a few other minor items.

It should NEVER be in the business of welfare, grants, entitlements, bailouts or any other transfer of income or wealth.

Building roads and bridges are fine and we can pay for it out of a user fee like with the fuel tax.

Back in 2012 (when the Federal budget was in the $3 trillion a year range) Ron Paul proposed a trillion a year in the federal budget reduction in spending that maintained Defense, Social Security and even some welfare. The goddamn assholes of both parties couldn't even do that.

That was the sane and fiscally responsible thing to do. Nowadays that trillion in savings would probably be $3 trillion.

Ron Paul's 'Plan to Restore America'

www.cato.org

 

[multivita-man]

See, you are doing the same thing that all Liberals do that caused us to be in the mess we are in now.

You are trying to justify big government spending and you are fine with more taxation to pay for it.

As I've said before, debt per se ain't a problem; it's really a matter of how serious government is about fiscal responsibility. We had SS, Medicare, Medicaid, and the Cold War all up until the 1980s. Since then, both parties decided gravity doesn't exist. Republicans said we're done paying for the welfare state. Democrats said 'Oh no you're not' but have caved when it comes to passing tax increases (because they know that they're not popular).

I add the 2nd graph for broader context. We've carried debt for most of this country's history. The one time we didn't was under Andrew Jackson, who was a wildly popular president and the dude who ended what was the "fed" of its time (2nd Bank of the United States). He was wildly popular as a populist president, but his policies led to the worst financial crisis in the 19th Century. A crisis so bad that he fucked over Martin Van Buren's presidency before it ever had a chance to get going. In fact, when you take the Civil War out of the equation, it was probably the worst economic crisis in this country's history except for the Great Depression that happened almost 100 years later.

Debt ain't bad. It's a matter of degree and how the money is spent.

Gross Federal Debt as Percent of Gross Domestic Product

Graph and download economic data for Gross Federal Debt as Percent of Gross Domestic Product (GFDGDPA188S) from 1939 to 2023 about gross, debt, federal, GDP, and USA.

fred.stlouisfed.org

https://www.economicshelp.org/wp-content/uploads/2011/08/us-debt-held-by-public-1790-2021-labels.jpg

 

[skews13]

"The game hasn’t changed much since the Bill Clinton and Newt Gingrich agreements of 1995, or Barack Obama’s attempt at a 'grand bargain' with republicans in 2011.

"Dissent within republican ranks saved cuts to entitlement programs and Congressional Black Caucus leader Emmanuel Cleaver dubbed the proposals as a 'sugar coated satan sandwich' and later added,


"Now the highest ranking member of the CBC, Minority Leader Hakeem Jeffries, says that democrats are willing to freeze spending, which would actually cut $1 trillion from the budget over a ten-year period. His justification is all too familiar,



Biden’s debt ceiling betrayal is a Democratic Party tradition | MR Online

Biden's willingness to cut deals goes back decades.
When Clinton caved to Newt, Biden was fully supportive:

Fact Check: Joe Biden Has Advocated Cutting Social Security for 40 Years

"When I argued that we should freeze federal spending, I meant Social Security as well. I meant Medicare and Medicaid. I meant veterans’ benefits. I meant every single solitary thing in the government. And I not only tried it once, I tried it twice, I tried it a third time, and I tried it a fourth time."

The difference being Clinton and Gingrich both needed each other to get what both wanted.

Biden doesn't need McCarthy for anything, and McCarthy doesn't have any friends on either side of the aisle.

McCarthy needs Biden, because it is Biden that will direct Hakeem Jefferies to whip the votes to prevent the GOP clown show from vacating his chair. Which means as long as Kevin does the right thing, which isn't the GOP clown show thing. He can rub it in Margie Greenes face, right up until both of them lose the House back to the Democrats next year.

And after this. The debt ceiling will be no more. The Democrats will take away any budget weapons from Republicans to play these games in the future.

If Democrats pick up as much as one more seat in the Senate, you may see the filibuster be gone, and then it's Katie bar the door. The Dems can make 50 years of conservatism disappear in one year.

I so look forward to that day.

 

[Jessica-stormlover]

It sucks! An increase of funding for the miilitary, college students get fucked and help for the poor and disabled is capped and made harder to get. Seems like a big republican win too me. Evil to the core.

 

[Flash]

As I've said before, debt per se ain't a problem; it's really a matter of how serious government is about fiscal responsibility.

The government ain't serious about any fiscal responsibility.

If it we were we wouldn't be $33 trillion in debt and the cost of the fucking bloated Federal government being more than the GDP of all but two other countries on earth.

We don't need Social Security or Welfare or Medicare or aid to Illegals or food stamps or subsidizing Union pensions or building EV charging stations or bailing out Wall Street banks or giving money to failed Democrat controlled big city shitholes or a Department of Education or any of most of the things this bloated government thinks is so damn important.

The only fiscal responsibility thing to do is stop this madness and cut back spending to on the absolutely necessary things.

Of course if we do that then all the filthy ass welfare queens that suck off the teat of big government will cry like little school girls.

 

[Dekster]

It sucks! An increase of funding for the miilitary, college students get fucked and help for the poor and disabled is capped and made harder to get. Seems like a big republican win too me. Evil to the core.

Starting student loan payments one month sooner than planned is hardly "getting fucked". If you can't afford it, apply for a deferment. Anyway, since they haven't finalized the one-time adjustment rule yet, what the GOP took away Joe can giveth back if he wants. I doubt he will, but he could. He policies so far seem to have been focused on teachers and government employees and screw all the other borrowers.

 

[multivita-man]

The government ain't serious about any fiscal responsibility.

At the moment, I admit that it's hard to disagree.

 

[georgephillip]

The Democrats are just weak. Too afraid to stand up for what they believe in. I'm not sure they even have any core beliefs. They can blame Manchin and Sinema all they want, but they're just as corrupt and corporate as the Republicans are in some ways.

Biden represents the centrist faction of his party which argues belief in the old tax-and-spend liberals are out, and that a type of "New Democrat" is needed. In the early 1990s this made sense to many life-long Democrats who were reacting to 12 years of Republican control of the White House.

I think Biden made his current loyalties perfectly clear in August of 2019 at the Carlyle Hotel when he was seeking deep pockets for his 2020 run:

Biden promises wealthy donors he would not 'demonize' the rich

"Former Vice President Joe Biden told a room of affluent New York donors on Tuesday night that he doesn’t think it’s appropriate to 'demonize' the rich.

"'You know, what I’ve found is rich people are just as patriotic as poor people. Not a joke. I mean, we may not want to demonize anybody who has made money,' Biden told about 100 donors at the Carlyle Hotel on the Upper East Side, multiple media outlets reported."

 

[georgephillip]

The difference being Clinton and Gingrich both needed each other to get what both wanted.

Biden doesn't need McCarthy for anything, and McCarthy doesn't have any friends on either side of the aisle.

McCarthy needs Biden, because it is Biden that will direct Hakeem Jefferies to whip the votes to prevent the GOP clown show from vacating his chair. Which means as long as Kevin does the right thing, which isn't the GOP clown show thing. He can rub it in Margie Greenes face, right up until both of them lose the House back to the Democrats next year.

And after this. The debt ceiling will be no more. The Democrats will take away any budget weapons from Republicans to play these games in the future.

If Democrats pick up as much as one more seat in the Senate, you may see the filibuster be gone, and then it's Katie bar the door. The Dems can make 50 years of conservatism disappear in one year.

I so look forward to that day.

What are your thoughts on Joe Lieberman's latest effort?



"Roughly half the country believes that neither Joe Biden nor Donald Trump should seek the presidency in 2024 — though both men are. A group called No Labels is laying the groundwork for a potential third party candidate, but they won't say where they're getting their money."