Don t Let Anybody Tell You That Businesses Create Jobs

[Kondor3]

My evidence IS the Era of the Robber Barons. You call it Crony Capitalism. I call it Raw and unbridled laissez faire. You also seem a wee bit too trusting that free market capitalism will not degenerate into Robber Barons Era II if left unregulated in matters of off-shoring, but that's just my own perception.

The robber barons were very well entrenched with Washington. Look at the history of Rockefeller, Carnegie, Vanderbilt, J.P. Morgan, etc. They wouldn't have got there without their cozy relationship with government. Free market capitalism is about fair play, the only role government should play is making sure no one gets a friendly helping hand scratching each others' backs from Uncle Sam.

I hear what you're saying, and it looks good on paper.

Trouble is, it will almost certainly NOT pan-out that way, in the open light of day, in the Real World.

Greed will see to that.

If true, then, consequently, it will prove necessary to begin forcing jobs back on-shore.

It's not going to happen until the next time the Democrats are back in the drivers seat with control of the White House, the House and the Senate, but, given another 10-20 years at the present pace and scale of outsourcing and off-shoring, I'll stand by a prediction that we will see the US Government forcing jobs back on-shore, shoving it down the throats of Big Business.

I'm not certain of that, of course, but...

That's the Next Big Labor-Friendly Thing that I see happening down the road when I look into my own (and admittedly cloudy) Crystal Ball.

 

[BlackSand]

My evidence IS the Era of the Robber Barons. You call it Crony Capitalism. I call it Raw and unbridled laissez faire. You also seem a wee bit too trusting that free market capitalism will not degenerate into Robber Barons Era II if left unregulated in matters of off-shoring, but that's just my own perception.

The robber barons were very well entrenched with Washington. Look at the history of Rockefeller, Carnegie, Vanderbilt, J.P. Morgan, etc. They wouldn't have got there without their cozy relationship with government. Free market capitalism is about fair play, the only role government should play is making sure no one gets a friendly helping hand scratching each others' backs from Uncle Sam.

I hear what you're saying, and it looks good on paper.

Trouble is, it will almost certainly NOT pan-out that way, in the open light of day, in the Real World.

Greed will see to that.

If true, then, consequently, it will prove necessary to begin forcing jobs back on-shore.

It's not going to happen until the next time the Democrats are back in the drivers seat with control of the White House, the House and the Senate, but, given another 10-20 years at the present pace and scale of outsourcing and off-shoring, I'll stand by a prediction that we will see the US Government forcing jobs back on-shore, shoving it down the throats of Big Business.

I'm not certain of that, of course, but that's the next big Labor-Friendly thing that I see happening down the road when I look into my own (and admittedly cloudy) Crystal Ball.

That is my point Kondor ... It is happening and will continue to happen with or without the paper. The only question is how long does it take to realize that ... And decide efforts put towards improving the conditions under which it happens is more important than stopping what is going to happen anyway.

.

 

[Kondor3]

Or we could just accept the general idea that the US will sooner or later be a solely aristocratic society that produces managers to send to world-wide manufacturing companies producing goods for global distribution. .

But what to do with the peasantry? Sell them to the slave-markets overseas? Make them serfs?

If you feel the need to tell people what they can or cannot do ... Wouldn't it be more effective if you put those efforts towards producing a product and joining a larger attempt to advance the economy in a setting that improves relations and working conditions for a larger population?

I mean a wave of "global colonization" is already occurring. Large food corporations are buying out family farms all over the United States. Some of those farmers are taking their money from the sale and moving to more fertile lands in places like Brazil and sending their produce back to the United States using improved transportation processes.

So what if those farms and businesses aren't doing it under the name of a country ... The Empires are building either way whether or not you like it.

.

Oh, I agree that that is the trend.

I merely doubt that that trend is sustainable for more than another couple of decades, before the Plebians take the Equestrians to task once again.

The BIG question is, whether we (collectively) will be smart enough to avoid such unpleasantness through proactive measures designed to level the playing field a bit.

My money is on the Federal government forcing jobs back on-shore, within the next 10-20 years, once the upcoming Republican Reign wears-out its welcome, and the electorate gives the Democrats their next chance.

By then, the adverse effects of globalization and outsourcing and off-shoring should have worsened, considerably. I guess time will tell.

 

[Kondor3]

...That is my point Kondor ... It is happening and will continue to happen with or without the paper...

Nolo contendere. We have both helped to define different aspects of the problem. The primary difference between us seems to be in our belief (or lack thereof) in the sustainability of such a trend, without an eventual catastrophic backlash.

...The only question is how long does it take to realize that ... And decide efforts put towards improving the conditions under which it happens is more important than stopping what is going to happen anyway..

That sounds great, for those capable of recognizing and acting upon such thoughts. For the rest of the un-washed masses, however, that means nothing, or less than nothing - certainly nothing that they will be able to impact or take advantage of, as a class.

That's the early-times metaphorical scratch on the arm that eventually morphs into gangrene, methinks.

Probably best to treat and disinfect the scratch (by discouraging off-shoring and even forcing jobs back on-shore) rather than letting the situation turn into gangrene and to eventually require an amputation (social upheaval), in the time of our children or grandchildren or beyond.

Then again, decade after decade, generation after generation, we never seem to learn the lesson of economic and social balance, to avoid such unpleasantries. Sigh.

 

[BlackSand]

Or we could just accept the general idea that the US will sooner or later be a solely aristocratic society that produces managers to send to world-wide manufacturing companies producing goods for global distribution. .

But what to do with the peasantry? Sell them to the slave-markets overseas? Make them serfs?

If you feel the need to tell people what they can or cannot do ... Wouldn't it be more effective if you put those efforts towards producing a product and joining a larger attempt to advance the economy in a setting that improves relations and working conditions for a larger population?

I mean a wave of "global colonization" is already occurring. Large food corporations are buying out family farms all over the United States. Some of those farmers are taking their money from the sale and moving to more fertile lands in places like Brazil and sending their produce back to the United States using improved transportation processes.

So what if those farms and businesses aren't doing it under the name of a country ... The Empires are building either way whether or not you like it.

.

Oh, I agree that that is the trend.

I merely doubt that that trend is sustainable for more than another couple of decades, before the Plebians take the Equestrians to task once again.

The BIG question is, whether we (collectively) will be smart enough to avoid such unpleasantness through proactive measures designed to level the playing field a bit.

My money is on the Federal government forcing jobs back on-shore, within the next 10-20 years, once the upcoming Republican Reign wears-out its welcome, and the electorate gives the Democrats their next chance. By then, the adverse effects of globalization and outsourcing and off-shoring should have worsened, considerably. I guess time will tell.

The only thing I see that you may not is the ability to escape state sanctioned restrictions. If you stop trying to think about a global situation as a national matter ... The world opens up for business.

The global market, resources, demand, labor force and whatnot ... Don't give a shit about Democrats and Republicans in the US.

.

 

[BlackSand]

...That is my point Kondor ... It is happening and will continue to happen with or without the paper...

Nolo contendere. We have both helped to define different aspects of the problem. The primary difference between us seems to be in our belief (or lack thereof) in the sustainability of such a trend, without an eventual catastrophic backlash.

...The only question is how long does it take to realize that ... And decide efforts put towards improving the conditions under which it happens is more important than stopping what is going to happen anyway..

That sounds great, for those capable of recognizing and acting upon such thoughts. For the rest of the un-washed masses, however, that means nothing, or less than nothing - certainly nothing that they will be able to impact or take advantage of, as a class.

That's the early-times metaphorical scratch on the arm that eventually morphs into gangrene, methinks.

Probably best to treat and disinfect the scratch (by discouraging off-shoring and even forcing jobs back on-shore) rather than letting the situation turn into gangrene and to eventually require an amputation (social upheaval), in the time of our children or grandchildren or beyond.

LOL ... Growing pains ... They happen.

 

[Kondor3]

...LOL ... Growing pains ... They happen.

Perhaps. And, maybe time will prove you right. Like I said, it looks good on paper. I just don't think it's sustainable or sufficiently inclusive to stand the test of time. And, if that turns out to be true after all, then the shit is going to hit the fan again, in some way or another, in our lifetimes, or not too far beyond, at best. Sadly, I don't think we're smart enough to stop it, even though a great many of us can sense the very real potential for very real trouble - even if it's years or decades away. Just a thought. Meanwhile, thanks for the exchange.

 

[zeke]

My money is on the Federal government forcing jobs back on-shore, within the next 10-20 years, once the upcoming Republican Reign wears-out its welcome, and the electorate gives the Democrats their next chance

Nice exchange you all have had. Hope you don't mind........I won't call anyone "stupid" or say "****".

I believe that instead of the government using "force", that the use of coercion could be more effective.

Like telling corporations that IF they manufacture at least X% of their product in the USA, their tax rate is 20% (for instance). But we could sure be a lot more creative about helping keep jobs here. And there is a reason that we are not (more creative). Follow the money.

Would be nice to reward the companies that stay and punish those that don't. Same thing with taking the headquarters overseas. Sure they can, then their tax is this instead of that.

In terms of having a government willing to change and enforce change, we need a populist oriented politician. Bernie Sanders would have been my choice. Too old. Warren maybe.

Just like we have had robber barons in the past, we have also had populists. But not for a long time.
We need one again. We (middle class like me) have had plenty of today's version of "capitalism" IMO.

 

[BlackSand]

...LOL ... Growing pains ... They happen.

Perhaps. And, maybe time will prove you right. Like I said, it looks good on paper. I just don't think it's sustainable or sufficiently inclusive to stand the test of time. And, if that turns out to be true after all, then the shit is going to hit the fan again, in some way or another, in our lifetimes, or not too far beyond, at best. Sadly, I don't think we're smart enough to stop it, even though a great many of us can sense the very real potential for very real trouble - even if it's years or decades away. Just a thought. Meanwhile, thanks for the exchange.

Columbus could see a great deal of trouble associated with traveling across the open sea and possibly falling off the edge of the Earth. The difference is made ... Eventually for the better ... When you decide to get on the boat and go.

As long as we strictly tie whatever happens to what governments allow ... Then it will never happen in the long-term best interest of the people.

.

 

[ShaklesOfBigGov]

Make sure you thank inventors like Igor Sikorsky, the inventor of the helicopter, for their successful contribution in the world of innovation with all those jobs they created. Actually the Germans have brought a lot of skills and creativity into the realm of science when they were brought into the United States after World War II, through the building of rockets, jets, and through the NASA Apollo missions in the great space race for a few list of examples. America owes a lot to its inventors. If they don't tax them into looking at other countries to contribute their genius, our nation can benefit and enjoy the many years of innovation to come. The jobs of the future, and it's so-called evil investors who are willing to take financial risks in supporting each of these ideas, can sure use each and every one of them.

 

[Iceweasel]

I hear what you're saying, and it looks good on paper.

Trouble is, it will almost certainly NOT pan-out that way, in the open light of day, in the Real World.

Greed will see to that.

If true, then, consequently, it will prove necessary to begin forcing jobs back on-shore.

It's not going to happen until the next time the Democrats are back in the drivers seat with control of the White House, the House and the Senate, but, given another 10-20 years at the present pace and scale of outsourcing and off-shoring, I'll stand by a prediction that we will see the US Government forcing jobs back on-shore, shoving it down the throats of Big Business.

I'm not certain of that, of course, but...

That's the Next Big Labor-Friendly Thing that I see happening down the road when I look into my own (and admittedly cloudy) Crystal Ball.

Big government is a big reason the jobs are gone. Many left when Democrats were/are still, in control. Your beliefs don't match what's there. The less power the government wields over business the less they can pick winners and losers.

 

[Kondor3]

...Many left when Democrats were/are still, in control. Your beliefs don't match what's there...

Oh, I'm not operating under any delusions about Dems being the flip-side of the Corporate Sell-Out coin.

It's just that - of those two highly untrustworthy political parties - the Dems are more likely to betray Corporate America and put their foot on the throat of the Corporatists, in any sort of Jobs-Reclamation initiative which might surface within the next couple of decades.

 

[BlackSand]

Sorry ...

Edited to remove serious unintended thread derail though crossover argument.

 

[The Rabbi]

What is "5 years total capital?" Does that mean everything you'll spend for 5 years, include your employees wages? That would run into the millions of dollars even for a small business. Who do you think you're kidding?

Total capital.

Thanks for that totally useless answer. But then, why should I expect anything else from you?

I can't help it if you don't know the meaning of total capital.

It's meaningless. DOes "total capital" mean the total of expenditures? The total net worth of the business times 5? There's no such thing as "total capital". This must be something else you learned in your masters of business at Columbia.

 

[OnePercenter]

You realize, of course, that you're only proving what a profound numskull you are.

I'm trying to help you out of the idiot class. Run the numbers!

 

[The Rabbi]

You realize, of course, that you're only proving what a profound numskull you are.

I'm trying to help you out of the idiot class. Run the numbers!

By encouraging him to put you in Ignore?

 

[bripat9643]

What is "5 years total capital?" Does that mean everything you'll spend for 5 years, include your employees wages? That would run into the millions of dollars even for a small business. Who do you think you're kidding?

Total capital.

Thanks for that totally useless answer. But then, why should I expect anything else from you?

I can't help it if you don't know the meaning of total capital.

It's meaningless. DOes "total capital" mean the total of expenditures? The total net worth of the business times 5? There's no such thing as "total capital". This must be something else you learned in your masters of business at Columbia.

He doesn't know what it means. He just read it on some business blog.

 

[Judicial review]

I should be laughing, bit you all are annoying me with your lack of business experience. Only business owners are qualified to talk about this subject. Employees arent conditioned to know anything about this and same with business school graduates and executives. Only business owners. Morons.

 

[OnePercenter]

Perhaps she meant that businesses would rather outsource and shop the jobs offshore, hiring cheaper non-American labor, than to create or sustain a job here, yes?

When you have the second-highest corporate income tax rate in the world and one of the highest repatriated income tax rates in the world, both of which Democrats oppose lowering, it's not surprising that offshore outsourcing occurs and that some $2 trillion dollars in overseas-earned income is being kept outside our borders. But liberals would rather "stick it to" the rich than take some common-sense steps that would encourage growth and bring $2 trillion back into our economy.

Or tempt-across and then hire Illegal Aliens at near-slave wages, yes?

Seal the border and enforce E-Verify, and then that won't be an issue.

It would also help if unions didn't extort unrealistic benefit packages that end up bankrupting or severely hurting companies and local and state governments, e.g., GM, Detroit, New Jersey, Wisconsin, California, etc., etc.

For some of the Big Boy Companies, those accusations are certainly true, aren't they?

See above. I like big companies. They typically have the best jobs. I want our companies to grow, to get bigger and richer, so they'll hire more people, open more offices, develop more and better products, etc., etc. I don't want to punish them or tax them into collapse. I want to grow and multiply them. The more businesses you have, the more employees you have; and the more employees you have, the more consumers you have.

WOW! Verbatim from the Koch playbook!!!

-The US is number 16 of 20 in effective (actual) corporate tax rates.

-Off-shoring profits allows companies to buy product then sell it in the US without paying taxes on the money used to purchase the product.

-How are you going to seal the border? I made an offer many times. I will seal the US Mexico border, but it will cost $15 trillion each year for the first 10 years, and $10 trillion each year after.

-'Unrealistic benefit packages' had no direct effect. The auto industry was killed by Nixon allowing product dumping from Japan. That along with manufacturing CRAP in the 70's and 80's, and GM making a failed attempt in the mortgage and real estate industry cemented auto industry history.

 

[OnePercenter]

What is your evidence for that? The robber barons were engaged in crony capitalism, which differs from free market capitalism. The free market has a way to keep people in check. Government is good at playing favorites.

There is no free market...It's fixed.