Does The Universe Have a Purpose?

[ding]

So we live in a logical universe governed by laws where everything has a purpose and a reason. We know from our experiences this to be true also. When we create things we create them for a reason to serve a purpose. So it goes to reason that the universe was created for a purpose. Given what we know about the evolution of space and time, intelligence seems to be that purpose because it is the most complex and advanced thing that the universe has produced. Everything which has happened since space and time were created served the purpose of creating intelligence. The reason that intelligence was created was because it came from intelligence in the first place. The reason intelligence created the physical world is because it is the nature of intelligence to create. If you study your own experiences you will find this to be true too.

 

[Fort Fun Indiana]

So we live in a logical universe governed by laws where everything has a purpose and a reason.

Shaman ding has spoken!

Shaman Ding: what is the purpose of deformed babies, or psycopaths? Please, enlighten us with your divine wisdom.

 

[ElGabacholoco]

Absolutely not when we have idiots like Hillary Obama and the bushes running this human monkey house

 

[ding]

So not only do we have our observations of the physical world to draw upon, we also have our experience as creators that we can draw upon too.

To form the conclusion that the purpose of the universe is to create intelligence because it is the nature of intelligence to create.

 

[ElGabacholoco]

Yeah but how many of them know that they are creators when they are all willing citizen slaves obedient Lemmings following their Twisted Masters

 

[OldLady]

I dont care what your views are regarding my "beliefs."
Things I know, Im comfortable with.

Things I dont know, Im comfortable to admit.

Errors in simple reasoning are easy to poi t out when theyre made.

You stating the universe has a purpose, without speaking to its creator let alone proving there is one, is a leap of logical. Not a formally proven fact. It was easy to demonstrate, and so I did. Using a toilet as an analogy was an easy way to relate to dingggg, lol

What beliefs? As near as I can tell your only beliefs are ding shouldn't have any.

I habe beliefs, ding-dong.

I also know certain things. The two I dont hold as being the same, like you do.

Knowledge, in my definition, has to be justified as well as absolutely true.

I have knowledge of my own existence, for example, but I dont have the hubris to think that I could prove my existence to an external mind from my own.

Cool story.

Here's the basis for my belief that the purpose of the universe is to create intelligence.

1. we know space and time had a beginning
2. we know that space and time were created from nothing.
3. we know that the creation of space and time followed the laws of quantum mechanics and conservation.
4. we know that the SLoT precludes an infinite acting universe without reaching thermal equilibrium.
5. we know the laws of nature existed before the creation of space and time.
6. we know that intelligence arose according to the laws of nature.
7. we know that consciousness/intelligence is the most complex thing the universe has created.
8. we know that we live in a logical universe.
9. we know that the universe is governed by laws.
10. we know that every effect had a cause.
11. we know that everything happened for a reason.
12. we know that means everything has a purpose.
13. we know from our own experiences that we create things for a reason to serve a purpose.
14. we know that it is the nature of intelligence to create intelligence.
15. I believe that mind, rather than emerging as a late outgrowth in the evolution of life, has existed always as the matrix, the source and condition of physical reality - that the stuff of which physical reality is composed is mind-stuff. It is Mind that has composed a physical universe that breeds life, and so eventually evolves creatures that know and create.”
16. And that the purpose of the universe was to create intelligence.
17. And that the reason it was created was because it is the nature of intelligence to create intelligence.

You've totally lost me. First, I don't "know" anything from #11 on. Observing and figuring out how the universe works doesn't mean anything except that we have observed and figured out some of its "laws," or how it works. How you leap from that to saying that what IS had a reason, and that reason is to create intelligence and that "mind" created the physical universe is where I fell off the step.
Maybe I'm not smart enough to jump in here, but even explaining how you got from #10 to #11 would be helpful.

It was discussed earlier. But I am happy enough to explain relevance for any of it.

We know from our study of nature that we live in a deterministic universe where every cause has an effect and every effect had a cause. The definition of reason is a cause, explanation, or justification for an action or event. Therefore, since we live in a logical universe where every cause has an effect this means that everything happens for a reason. The definition of purpose is the reason for which something is done or created or for which something exists. therefore since everything happens for a reason, everything has a purpose.

Nah. Cause and effect I get. Tying in purpose still doesn't make sense.
Maybe you need to give me some more concrete examples.

 

[G.T.]

What beliefs? As near as I can tell your only beliefs are ding shouldn't have any.

I habe beliefs, ding-dong.

I also know certain things. The two I dont hold as being the same, like you do.

Knowledge, in my definition, has to be justified as well as absolutely true.

I have knowledge of my own existence, for example, but I dont have the hubris to think that I could prove my existence to an external mind from my own.

Cool story.

Here's the basis for my belief that the purpose of the universe is to create intelligence.

1. we know space and time had a beginning
2. we know that space and time were created from nothing.
3. we know that the creation of space and time followed the laws of quantum mechanics and conservation.
4. we know that the SLoT precludes an infinite acting universe without reaching thermal equilibrium.
5. we know the laws of nature existed before the creation of space and time.
6. we know that intelligence arose according to the laws of nature.
7. we know that consciousness/intelligence is the most complex thing the universe has created.
8. we know that we live in a logical universe.
9. we know that the universe is governed by laws.
10. we know that every effect had a cause.
11. we know that everything happened for a reason.
12. we know that means everything has a purpose.
13. we know from our own experiences that we create things for a reason to serve a purpose.
14. we know that it is the nature of intelligence to create intelligence.
15. I believe that mind, rather than emerging as a late outgrowth in the evolution of life, has existed always as the matrix, the source and condition of physical reality - that the stuff of which physical reality is composed is mind-stuff. It is Mind that has composed a physical universe that breeds life, and so eventually evolves creatures that know and create.”
16. And that the purpose of the universe was to create intelligence.
17. And that the reason it was created was because it is the nature of intelligence to create intelligence.

You've totally lost me. First, I don't "know" anything from #11 on. Observing and figuring out how the universe works doesn't mean anything except that we have observed and figured out some of its "laws," or how it works. How you leap from that to saying that what IS had a reason, and that reason is to create intelligence and that "mind" created the physical universe is where I fell off the step.
Maybe I'm not smart enough to jump in here, but even explaining how you got from #10 to #11 would be helpful.

It was discussed earlier. But I am happy enough to explain relevance for any of it.

We know from our study of nature that we live in a deterministic universe where every cause has an effect and every effect had a cause. The definition of reason is a cause, explanation, or justification for an action or event. Therefore, since we live in a logical universe where every cause has an effect this means that everything happens for a reason. The definition of purpose is the reason for which something is done or created or for which something exists. therefore since everything happens for a reason, everything has a purpose.

Nah. Cause and effect I get. Tying in purpose still doesn't make sense.
Maybe you need to give me some more concrete examples.

Its a conflation of terms that he simply doesn't understand.

Cause and reason are similar, and not the same. Reason and purpose are similar, and not the same.

Purpose as myself, and likely you, mean it in this discussion means "goal."

Cause and goal are not the same thing. So..... cause / means reason / means purpose is not synonymous with having a goal. A misapprehension of terms is being employed and thats just 1 of the false premises. For me, they started well before #11, but I agree with you.

 

[ding]

What beliefs? As near as I can tell your only beliefs are ding shouldn't have any.

I habe beliefs, ding-dong.

I also know certain things. The two I dont hold as being the same, like you do.

Knowledge, in my definition, has to be justified as well as absolutely true.

I have knowledge of my own existence, for example, but I dont have the hubris to think that I could prove my existence to an external mind from my own.

Cool story.

Here's the basis for my belief that the purpose of the universe is to create intelligence.

1. we know space and time had a beginning
2. we know that space and time were created from nothing.
3. we know that the creation of space and time followed the laws of quantum mechanics and conservation.
4. we know that the SLoT precludes an infinite acting universe without reaching thermal equilibrium.
5. we know the laws of nature existed before the creation of space and time.
6. we know that intelligence arose according to the laws of nature.
7. we know that consciousness/intelligence is the most complex thing the universe has created.
8. we know that we live in a logical universe.
9. we know that the universe is governed by laws.
10. we know that every effect had a cause.
11. we know that everything happened for a reason.
12. we know that means everything has a purpose.
13. we know from our own experiences that we create things for a reason to serve a purpose.
14. we know that it is the nature of intelligence to create intelligence.
15. I believe that mind, rather than emerging as a late outgrowth in the evolution of life, has existed always as the matrix, the source and condition of physical reality - that the stuff of which physical reality is composed is mind-stuff. It is Mind that has composed a physical universe that breeds life, and so eventually evolves creatures that know and create.”
16. And that the purpose of the universe was to create intelligence.
17. And that the reason it was created was because it is the nature of intelligence to create intelligence.

You've totally lost me. First, I don't "know" anything from #11 on. Observing and figuring out how the universe works doesn't mean anything except that we have observed and figured out some of its "laws," or how it works. How you leap from that to saying that what IS had a reason, and that reason is to create intelligence and that "mind" created the physical universe is where I fell off the step.
Maybe I'm not smart enough to jump in here, but even explaining how you got from #10 to #11 would be helpful.

It was discussed earlier. But I am happy enough to explain relevance for any of it.

We know from our study of nature that we live in a deterministic universe where every cause has an effect and every effect had a cause. The definition of reason is a cause, explanation, or justification for an action or event. Therefore, since we live in a logical universe where every cause has an effect this means that everything happens for a reason. The definition of purpose is the reason for which something is done or created or for which something exists. therefore since everything happens for a reason, everything has a purpose.

Nah. Cause and effect I get. Tying in purpose still doesn't make sense.
Maybe you need to give me some more concrete examples.

Have you ever made a turkey dinner?

 

[OldLady]

Yeah but how many of them know that they are creators when they are all willing citizen slaves obedient Lemmings following their Twisted Masters

Politics is three doors down on the left. Or in your case, perhaps on the right.
Welcome, ElGab. I think I recognize your voice. If you make it more than 36 hours, I'll bring out the donuts.

 

[G.T.]

Intentionality is where the fallacy is occurring.

All effects have causes, that we've observed.

All effects were not INTENTIONALLY caused(or, a "goal").. and that is where the leap is being made.

 

[OldLady]

I habe beliefs, ding-dong.

I also know certain things. The two I dont hold as being the same, like you do.

Knowledge, in my definition, has to be justified as well as absolutely true.

I have knowledge of my own existence, for example, but I dont have the hubris to think that I could prove my existence to an external mind from my own.

Cool story.

Here's the basis for my belief that the purpose of the universe is to create intelligence.

1. we know space and time had a beginning
2. we know that space and time were created from nothing.
3. we know that the creation of space and time followed the laws of quantum mechanics and conservation.
4. we know that the SLoT precludes an infinite acting universe without reaching thermal equilibrium.
5. we know the laws of nature existed before the creation of space and time.
6. we know that intelligence arose according to the laws of nature.
7. we know that consciousness/intelligence is the most complex thing the universe has created.
8. we know that we live in a logical universe.
9. we know that the universe is governed by laws.
10. we know that every effect had a cause.
11. we know that everything happened for a reason.
12. we know that means everything has a purpose.
13. we know from our own experiences that we create things for a reason to serve a purpose.
14. we know that it is the nature of intelligence to create intelligence.
15. I believe that mind, rather than emerging as a late outgrowth in the evolution of life, has existed always as the matrix, the source and condition of physical reality - that the stuff of which physical reality is composed is mind-stuff. It is Mind that has composed a physical universe that breeds life, and so eventually evolves creatures that know and create.”
16. And that the purpose of the universe was to create intelligence.
17. And that the reason it was created was because it is the nature of intelligence to create intelligence.

You've totally lost me. First, I don't "know" anything from #11 on. Observing and figuring out how the universe works doesn't mean anything except that we have observed and figured out some of its "laws," or how it works. How you leap from that to saying that what IS had a reason, and that reason is to create intelligence and that "mind" created the physical universe is where I fell off the step.
Maybe I'm not smart enough to jump in here, but even explaining how you got from #10 to #11 would be helpful.

It was discussed earlier. But I am happy enough to explain relevance for any of it.

We know from our study of nature that we live in a deterministic universe where every cause has an effect and every effect had a cause. The definition of reason is a cause, explanation, or justification for an action or event. Therefore, since we live in a logical universe where every cause has an effect this means that everything happens for a reason. The definition of purpose is the reason for which something is done or created or for which something exists. therefore since everything happens for a reason, everything has a purpose.

Nah. Cause and effect I get. Tying in purpose still doesn't make sense.
Maybe you need to give me some more concrete examples.

Have you ever made a turkey dinner?

Unfortunately, yes. Thank God you're going bring it down to earth.

 

[ding]

Intentionality is where the fallacy is occurring.

All effects have causes, that we've observed.

All effects were not INTENTIONALLY caused(or, a "goal").. and that is where the leap is being made.

They were if intelligence is the intention of the laws of nature.

 

[OldLady]

Intentionality is where the fallacy is occurring.

All effects have causes, that we've observed.

All effects were not INTENTIONALLY caused(or, a "goal").. and that is where the leap is being made.

Everything you've said is the way I was thinking, too, but after 4,000 years or so of philosophers justifying the existence of a Creator, there's got to be some logical arguments for it. Doesn't there? I'm just giving ding a chance to explain why. Maybe the turkey dinner will explain it.

 

[OldLady]

Intentionality is where the fallacy is occurring.

All effects have causes, that we've observed.

All effects were not INTENTIONALLY caused(or, a "goal").. and that is where the leap is being made.

They were if intelligence is the intention of the laws of nature.

That's putting the cart before the horse, though, ding.
The entire ecosystem of our planet is also mind bogglingly intricate. My Japanese maple is not intelligent, though, and probably never will be.

 

[G.T.]

Intentionality is where the fallacy is occurring.

All effects have causes, that we've observed.

All effects were not INTENTIONALLY caused(or, a "goal").. and that is where the leap is being made.

They were if intelligence is the intention of the laws of nature.

Yeah, that's a good/huge if, and to even pretend to assert it as fact you'd need to satisfy two scenarios, and you still use your syllogism (a syllogism is a logical proof) without satisfying the burden of proof of each premise..

Thats because you are biased to an outcome.

Anyway, to prove intelligence is INTENDED, youd need to either...

1. Talk to the Universe's creator, if there is one, and ask the intention of its creation.

2. Prove that the concept "side effect" is a myth/never happens.

 

[Fort Fun Indiana]

Everything you've said is the way I was thinking, too, but after 4,000 years or so of philosophers justifying the existence of a Creator, there's got to be some logical arguments for it. Doesn't there? I'm just giving ding a chance to explain why. Maybe the turkey dinner will explain it.

Of course there are, but there are "logical arguments" for anything at all. Like so:

1) If dogs have tentacles like octupuses, then lead poisoning is good for you.
2) Dogs have tentacles like octopuses
3) Therefore, lead poisoning is good for you.

That is a perfectly valid argument that violates no rules of logic. That is why we need empiricism as a means of discerning truth from falsity. Logic alone cannot be trusted to show us truth. Philosophers throughout history have successfully argued many things which we now know are false. that is why the "5 ways" of Aquinas are useless garbage: One could never discern the truth of the premises.

 

[G.T.]

Intentionality is where the fallacy is occurring.

All effects have causes, that we've observed.

All effects were not INTENTIONALLY caused(or, a "goal").. and that is where the leap is being made.

Everything you've said is the way I was thinking, too, but after 4,000 years or so of philosophers justifying the existence of a Creator, there's got to be some logical arguments for it. Doesn't there? I'm just giving ding a chance to explain why. Maybe the turkey dinner will explain it.

Philosophers have put holes in every syllogism thats attempted to prove a deity, rationally.

Pick any one of them...

the tag argument

the kalam cosmological argument...



They all have errors, and these errors are why God requires faith. Its not rationally n'or empirically proven to exist to any peer reviewed/testable satisfaction, which is why faith is in the mix at all.

 

[ding]

Intentionality is where the fallacy is occurring.

All effects have causes, that we've observed.

All effects were not INTENTIONALLY caused(or, a "goal").. and that is where the leap is being made.

They were if intelligence is the intention of the laws of nature.

That's putting the cart before the horse, though, ding.
The entire ecosystem of our planet is also mind bogglingly intricate. My Japanese maple is not intelligent, though, and probably never will be.

Yes, it is complexity upon complexity. It is complex adaptive systems within complex adaptive systems which seem to defy the law of entropy.

But there is no disputing that as the arrow of life increased the complexity of life increased. That is the nature of a highly complex adaptive system. The real question is why is that the nature of highly complex adaptive systems and the answer to that appears to me to be intelligence is trying to emerge. Did you know that even plants can have what is described as intelligence?

 

[ding]

Cool story.

Here's the basis for my belief that the purpose of the universe is to create intelligence.

1. we know space and time had a beginning
2. we know that space and time were created from nothing.
3. we know that the creation of space and time followed the laws of quantum mechanics and conservation.
4. we know that the SLoT precludes an infinite acting universe without reaching thermal equilibrium.
5. we know the laws of nature existed before the creation of space and time.
6. we know that intelligence arose according to the laws of nature.
7. we know that consciousness/intelligence is the most complex thing the universe has created.
8. we know that we live in a logical universe.
9. we know that the universe is governed by laws.
10. we know that every effect had a cause.
11. we know that everything happened for a reason.
12. we know that means everything has a purpose.
13. we know from our own experiences that we create things for a reason to serve a purpose.
14. we know that it is the nature of intelligence to create intelligence.
15. I believe that mind, rather than emerging as a late outgrowth in the evolution of life, has existed always as the matrix, the source and condition of physical reality - that the stuff of which physical reality is composed is mind-stuff. It is Mind that has composed a physical universe that breeds life, and so eventually evolves creatures that know and create.”
16. And that the purpose of the universe was to create intelligence.
17. And that the reason it was created was because it is the nature of intelligence to create intelligence.

You've totally lost me. First, I don't "know" anything from #11 on. Observing and figuring out how the universe works doesn't mean anything except that we have observed and figured out some of its "laws," or how it works. How you leap from that to saying that what IS had a reason, and that reason is to create intelligence and that "mind" created the physical universe is where I fell off the step.
Maybe I'm not smart enough to jump in here, but even explaining how you got from #10 to #11 would be helpful.

It was discussed earlier. But I am happy enough to explain relevance for any of it.

We know from our study of nature that we live in a deterministic universe where every cause has an effect and every effect had a cause. The definition of reason is a cause, explanation, or justification for an action or event. Therefore, since we live in a logical universe where every cause has an effect this means that everything happens for a reason. The definition of purpose is the reason for which something is done or created or for which something exists. therefore since everything happens for a reason, everything has a purpose.

Nah. Cause and effect I get. Tying in purpose still doesn't make sense.
Maybe you need to give me some more concrete examples.

Have you ever made a turkey dinner?

Unfortunately, yes. Thank God you're going bring it down to earth.

What was the reason you made it?

 

[Fort Fun Indiana]

Yes, it is complexity upon complexity. It is complex adaptive systems within complex adaptive systems which seem to defy the law of entropy.

Only to an untrained mind.