Does the money you earn belong to you or the state?

[JBeukema]

If you tax the rich because the poor "need" it more, then, logically, you must ensure that the poor spends it on their needs. Else, you will never "eliminate poverty."

None of that is the rationale for progressive taxation.

Taxing those who rely upon far more government services and have far more disposable income as a result is the justification for progressive taxes. Not eliminating poverty. Nobody thinks like that.

Aren't those more reliant on government services generally those with less disposable income? isn't that why they're more reliant on government services- because they can't afford their own roads and water treatment plants alone?

 

[JBeukema]

The only solution is to ask each man to give as he is able- to ask all members of society to contribute as they are able to ensure society as a whole can continue to thrive.

You and I both know that asking for donations will not generate enough income to fund a military to keep the barbarians at the gates, let alone maintain a national highway system.

What are you babbling about?

Who said anything about passing around a donation basket?

Thus, we have the IRS to keep people paying...men with guns. Should the IRS have the power to determine who needs to pay?

Congress passes tax laws, not the IRS.


Are you being purposely ignorant or are you just far less intelligent than I used to think you?

Further, should the government ensure that the poor spend their limited funds on genuine needs, not their favorite vices?

What are you babbling about?

 

[eagleseven]

None of that is the rationale for progressive taxation.

Taxing those who rely upon far more government services and have far more disposable income as a result is the justification for progressive taxes. Not eliminating poverty. Nobody thinks like that.

Do you honestly believe that the rich rely upon government services more than the poor?

The rich can and do afford private security, private transportation, private education, and private healthcare.

 

[JBeukema]

Ownership = Control.

MIT OpenCourseWare | Electrical Engineering and Computer Science | 6.912 Introduction to Copyright Law, January IAP 2006 | Video Lectures | Video Lectures - Lecture 1

 

[eagleseven]

The only solution is to ask each man to give as he is able- to ask all members of society to contribute as they are able to ensure society as a whole can continue to thrive.

You and I both know that asking for donations will not generate enough income to fund a military to keep the barbarians at the gates, let alone maintain a national highway system.

What are you babbling about?

Who said anything about passing around a donation basket?

You want to "ask each man to give as he is able." If by "ask" you mean "force to pay taxes under penalty of imprisonment" then you ought to be clearer.

Thus, we have the IRS to keep people paying...men with guns. Should the IRS have the power to determine who needs to pay?

Congress passes tax laws, not the IRS.

Are you being purposely ignorant or are you just far less intelligent than I used to think you?

Is it Congress that collects your taxes, or the IRS?

Regardless, if you disobey either Congress or the IRS, you will be punished. Ought they to have the power to punish you for not giving as you are able?

Further, should the government ensure that the poor spend their limited funds on genuine needs, not their favorite vices?

What are you babbling about?

Are you familiar with the Health Insurance Mandate in the recently-passed Obamacare bill?

Congress is forcing poor Americans to purchase health insurance. Why? Because Congress believes it must control how we spend the money it gives us, for our own good.

 

[JBeukema]

You know exactly what is meant in a conversation about taxation.

Stop playing stupid.

 

[JBeukema]

Ought they to have the power to punish you for not giving as you are able?

Cheap Flights to Somalia - TripAdvisor

We're not discussing the merits of anarchism versus civilization. We're discussing the merits of progressive versus flat-percentage taxation within a system such as our own.


Now stop playing stupid.

 

[JBeukema]

You know exactly what is meant in a conversation about taxation.

Stop playing stupid.

Stop ignoring the issue.


Do you believe government should force the poor to purchase health insurance? Yes or no?

Because they already are.

We're not discussing the recent HCR act. there are other threads about that subject.

Now stop playing stupid and stay on topic.

 

[eagleseven]

Ought they to have the power to punish you for not giving as you are able?

Cheap Flights to Somalia - TripAdvisor

We're not discussing the merits of anarchism versus civilization. We're discussing the merits of progressive versus flat-percentage taxation within a system such as our own.


Now stop playing stupid.

My choices are progressive taxation or anarchy?

False dichotomy.

---

I argue that progressive taxation is wrong, because it forces the government to control how its population spends income. This is already demonstrated to be true, as our government now forces the poor to purchase (overpriced) health insurance against their will.

Do you understand?

 

[shintao]

And the returds think that because someone uses the majority of government services, receives the majority of welfare, bonuses, entitlements, etc., that they should pay no taxes at all.

Someone receiving more handouts than they pay in taxes are effectively paying no taxes at all. Doh!

Yes, it is a shame their are so many rich people receiving handouts & making it look bad on the poor who were created through capitalism. Just look at these rich bastards!!!

About 1,000 millionaires pay no taxes.

Tax Day 101: How some millionaires can owe no taxes - CSMonitor.com



General Electric, which “generated $10.3 billion in pretax income, but ended up owing nothing to Uncle Sam. Of $15 billion in income taxes last year, Exxon paid none of it to Uncle Sam, and has tens of billions in earnings permanently reinvested overseas.
ThinkProgress ExxonMobil paid no federal income tax in 2009. (Updated)


Most Companies Pay No Federal Income Tax

GAO Study Also Finds 68% Of Foreign Companies In U.S. Avoid Corporate Taxes. Collectively, the companies reported trillions of dollars in sales, according to GAO's estimate.

(AP) Two-thirds of U.S. corporations paid no federal income taxes between 1998 and 2005, according to a new report from Congress.

More than 38,000 foreign corporations had no tax liability in 2005 and 1.2 million U.S. companies paid no income tax, the GAO said. Combined, the companies had $2.5 trillion in sales. About 25 percent of the U.S. corporations not paying corporate taxes were considered large corporations, meaning they had at least $250 million in assets or $50 million in receipts.
Most Companies Pay No Federal Income Tax - CBS News

 

[JBeukema]

Ought they to have the power to punish you for not giving as you are able?

Cheap Flights to Somalia - TripAdvisor

We're not discussing the merits of anarchism versus civilization. We're discussing the merits of progressive versus flat-percentage taxation within a system such as our own.


Now stop playing stupid.

My choices are progressive taxation or anarchy?

False dichotomy.

Yes it it, and you're the one who made it.

You used to be an example of reading comprehension; now you're acting like Conhog. Nowhere did I claim what you're saying.

We're discussing the merits of progressive versus flat-percentage taxation within a system such as our own.

If you can't comprehend that sentence, you need to go back to the 6th grade.

I argue that progressive taxation is wrong, because it forces the government to control how its population spends income.

No, it doesn't. It still falls on me to spend the income as I will. I can spend all my net income on booze or food.

You fail.

This is already demonstrated to be true,

as our government now forces the poor to purchase (overpriced) health insurance against their will.

fail.

We're not discussing the current HCR act, which is an example not of progressive taxation, but of specific legislation.

Do you understand?

That you're an idiot? Yes.

An example of progressive taxation would be exempting anyone who earns under x from federal taxes, taxing people who make y at rate a and taxing people who make z and rate b. How those taxdollars are spent, let alone any law requiring people have insurance, are wholly unrelated matters.


Now stop being retarded.

 

[eagleseven]

the poor who were created through capitalism.

There were no poor people before Adam Smith'S The Wealth of Nations?

About 1,000 millionaires pay no taxes.

Which means 3,999,000 millionaires pay taxes?

Most Companies Pay No Federal Income Tax - CBS News

Instead, their employees pay income taxes on corporate salaries, and their stockholders pay capital gains taxes on corporate stock. Money that is spent building corporate infrastructure, ie growing the economy, is not directly taxed.

Methinks Americans would benefit from Corporate Finance 101.

 

[shintao]

(I happen to live in the desert, so water is the most obvious example to my mind). Yet I cannot ask a man to starve. Indeed, that flies in the face of the very reason we seek to build this infrastructure in the first place, let alone all moral decency.

You might answer this in a PM. What would unlimited fresh water do for your region?

 

[jreeves]

Less overhead? Have you seen what executives at those "Non-profits" make???

Much less than the gubmint....

Show me anyone in government who makes these salaries


Top 25 Compensation Packages from AIP's Charity Rating Guide

Harold Varmus, M.D., President/CEO Memorial Sloan-Kettering Cancer Center $2,677,306
Wayne LaPierre, Executive VP/Ex-Officio National Rifle Association & Foundation, respectively $1,281,635
Donald Thomas, Deputy CEO American Cancer Society $1,212,293
Robert J. Mazzuca, Chief Scout Executive Boy Scouts of America - N.O. $1,163,472
Michael Friedman, M.D., President/CEO City of Hope $1,134,737
M. Cass Wheeler, Past CEO American Heart Association/American Stroke Association $1,090,769
Includes $300,000 severence payment.
Brian A. Gallagher, President/CEO
United Way Worldwide $1,037,140
Includes "non-qualified pension imputed income of $410,131."
Edwin J. Feulner, President Heritage Foundation $1,008,094
Roxanne Spillett, President/Governor Boys & Girls Clubs of America - N.O. $988,591

Hmmm...I guess this is a ok...
$Billions in Medicare/Medicaid lost to fraud, abuse - National Law Enforcement | Examiner.com
According to Steven Malanga of the Manhattan Institute, experts estimate that "abuses of Medicaid (alone) eat up at least 10 percent of the program’s total cost nationwide -- a waste of $30 billion a year.


NRA helping people...LOL

 

[eagleseven]

We're discussing the merits of progressive versus flat-percentage taxation within a system such as our own.

If you can't comprehend that sentence, you need to go back to the 6th grade.

I understand this topic well, thank you. My argument is that taxation is a necessary evil, and that flat-taxes are less evil than progressive-taxation because they do not force the taxman to judge citizen's behavior.

In other words, I argue that our progressive tax system is directly linked to the increasing presence of the government in our daily lives.

No, it doesn't. It still falls on me to spend the income as I will. I can spend all my net income on booze or food.

Maybe in Somalia, but not in Obama's America.

Judge Affirms Health Insurance Mandate In Federal Overhaul : Shots - Health News Blog : NPR

The same leader who supports higher taxes on the rich, supports mandates on the poor. You think this is coincidence?



---

I say the government does not have the morale authority to determine who "deserves" their income. You think the government must redistribute income according to need. We will not see eye-to-eye on this issue.

This is simply a case where we are irreconcilable ideological opponents. It happens.

 

[shintao]

There were no poor people before Adam Smith'S The Wealth of Nations?

I bet there was, and I bet the capitalist system added to that number.

About 1,000 millionaires pay no taxes.

Which means 3,999,000 millionaires pay taxes?

And that matters because?? About 300 million pay some sort of taxes, even those in poverty that get a big mac for their one daily meal. The bottom line is if the rich and the corporations were paying their fair share of taxes, your tax burden would be lowered and some guy in his one set of rags wouldn't be on your mind. How come it is you dwell on the poor for what they don't pay, but do nothing to raise them up from poverty and make them productive as Smith might guide you do................

 

[eagleseven]

There were no poor people before Adam Smith'S The Wealth of Nations?

I bet there was, and I bet the capitalist system added to that number.

About 300 million pay some sort of taxes, even those in poverty that get a big mac for their one daily meal.

One daily meal? Have you been reading Oliver Twist?

The bottom line is if the rich and the corporations were paying their fair share of taxes, your tax burden would be lowered and some guy in his one set of rags wouldn't be on your mind.

I pay no Federal taxes, save Medicare and Social Security.

How come it is you dwell on the poor for what they don't pay, but do nothing to raise them up from poverty and make them productive as Smith might guide you do................

I make $3000/year. My closest friend makes $16000/year.

I am raising myself out of poverty...and no, I do not eat Big Macs everyday.


Fuck you.

 

[antagon]

I'd contend that unless that's by the day, neither of those salaries is enough to support one's self in the US and both of those persons should be exempt from income taxes.

We're establishing the principles upon which we justify taxation.

---

Is taking $150,000 from a $1,000,000 salary better than taking $10,000 from a $100,000 salary? If so, why?

Would your answer change, if the person making $100,000 funds a cocaine habit, while the person making $1,000,000 funds several charities which help war orphans?

Would your answer change, if the person making $100,000 is a doctor, while the person making $1,000,000 is a Lehman Brothers executive?

---


Is our government in a position to make this determination? If so, why?

its progressive tax, son. it is better. you really dont know why?

 

[bigrebnc1775]

the government prints the money, it is theirs to make and use how they wish, it says so right in the constitution. Which is why they can print more any day they choose.

You don't have any of your own money and you never will, if you try to print your own you will eventually be shut down like the FreeMen were.

Who Owns the Money - The Fed // Current

That is CURRENCY, dumbass.
Money is earned.
Government PRINTS CURRENCY.
Government EARNS NOTHING.

if that's not the most pedantic shit i've seen in a while.

Truth doesn't have to be accepted. Still it doesn't change a thing about it being correct.

 

[bigrebnc1775]

nope, the money itself belongs to Caesar. If you buy property with it you have limited rights to that property, but the money itself is on loan, not lease, and not for sale.

Which is why it is illegal to fuck up a nickel even if it is "yours".

What if everybody in the private sector stopped working where does the government get it's money?
Sorry but my money is my money.

I tell you what you need to do if you think the government owns everybody's money pay my share to.

If it's all your money, why do you pay your taxes? Are you stupid, or just a pussy?

Since you think your money is not your's pay my share.