Zone1 Does morality shape religion or does religion shape morality ?

[Carl in Michigan]

That's not moral relativism though. Moral relativism has to do with the nature of morality itself. Moral relativism is the view that morality is relative to either an individual or one's culture.

Also, since you brought it up, the reason why you don't see Christians on the street preaching against those other things is because nearly everyone already knows those other things are wrong... Whereas with LGBT, society has been taught that not only is it not wrong, but it's something to take pride in and celebrate.

Exactly. Nobody is DEMANDING we respect you for "cheating" on your spouse. People still feel rightful shame over adultery and they keep it to themselves making no DEMAND on others for acceptance

Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: neither the sexually immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor men who practice homosexuality

 

[Tommy Tainant]

That's not moral relativism though. Moral relativism has to do with the nature of morality itself. Moral relativism is the view that morality is relative to either an individual or one's culture.

Also, since you brought it up, the reason why you don't see Christians on the street preaching against those other things is because nearly everyone already knows those other things are wrong... Whereas with LGBT, society has been taught that not only is it not wrong, but it's something to take pride in and celebrate.

Im not sure that the battle against dishonesty or adultery has been won. It is more like they are not seen as much of a problem.
Clinton cheated on his wife and got reelected. Trump cheated on all his wives but nobody is bothered,
Who was the guy who dropped out of the Pres race after being caught cheateing ? Hart ?

 

[skews13]

Our retreat from Christianity doesn’t mean we’ve lost our sense of morality | Kenan Malik

Those who moan that we’re losing our religion are quick to demonise the most vulnerable

www.theguardian.com

Yet the history of Christianity itself shows that it is not belief in God that defines our moral values but our moral values that shape the way we think about God. Christians (like those of many faiths) once enslaved fellow human beings, burned witches and killed adulterers, believing such practices to have divine sanction. Few Christians today would regard such practices as morally acceptable. Not because God has changed his mind but because humans have.

Collective social struggle – from campaigns to abolish slavery to battles for women’s rights – have been underpinned by moral considerations while becoming also the source of moral development. Such struggles have transformed our moral universe, and in so doing transformed, also, what believers imagine God deems to be good.

I cant see how this can be argued with.The people who campaigned aganst slavery may have been Christians but they were also good people who recognised it as evil.
It was their personal morality rather than any shift in the attitude of the churvh.

Life is generally better now that it was a century,or 2 centuries, back. But that is because we are better people rather than a shift in faith.

You could argue that art is more influential than the church in this.

Their is nothing moral about religion.

They are two entirely different entities.

One can be moral in character, and even more so in most instances, than one who holds rigid stances on religious convictions.

 

[Tommy Tainant]

Exactly. Nobody is DEMANDING we respect you for "cheating" on your spouse. People still feel rightful shame over adultery and they keep it to themselves making no DEMAND on others for acceptance

Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: neither the sexually immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor men who practice homosexuality

Th only requests made on you is that you act in a civil way. Nobody majes demands.

 

[Dekster]

That's not moral relativism though. Moral relativism has to do with the nature of morality itself. Moral relativism is the view that morality is relative to either an individual or one's culture.

Also, since you brought it up, the reason why you don't see Christians on the street preaching against those other things is because nearly everyone already knows those other things are wrong... Whereas with LGBT, society has been taught that not only is it not wrong, but it's something to take pride in and celebrate.

If you think the Bible condemnation of gays has weight and you don't when it comes to adultery or divorce, then you are exercising moral relativism. It is that simple.

 

[buttercup]

If you think the Bible condemnation of gays has weight and you don't when it comes to adultery or divorce, then you are exercising moral relativism. It is that simple.

That's not what I said at all, not even close. You completely misunderstood. Please re-read my previous post.

BOTH are wrong according to the Bible. My point (again) is that unlike homosexuality, people are not claiming that adultery is OK, people are not out there having parades claiming adultery is something to take pride in, it is generally considered wrong, not just among Christians but among people in general. So that's why you don't see Christians on the street focusing on that sin, because (again) nearly everyone already knows it is wrong. Homosexuality is an entirely different story.

 

[rampart]

I’m fascinated with two eras of human history. When we started having laws And when we first formalized our languages with alphabets. Way back. Who invented our alphabet? When? We should know this. Fuck Christopher Columbus. And who wrote the first Old Testament? When?

pbs did a great series on writing, very recently. it seems that they can trace all alphabets, even chinese and sanskrit to a philistine quarry, and then back to egypt hieroglyphic.

 

[sealybobo]

pbs did a great series on writing, very recently. it seems that they can trace all alphabets, even chinese and sanskrit to a philistine quarry, and then back to egypt hieroglyphic.

So every society saw this first and it was explained to them it was an alphabet of someone elses language. So other people came up with their own versions. Thanks.

 

[rampart]

So every society saw this first and it was explained to them it was an alphabet of someone elses language. So other people came up with their own versions. Thanks.

this was in 3 or 4 several parts and is seriously informative. i'm going to watch again so maybe i can understand.

A to Z

Discover how writing—and eventually printing—revolutionized the spread of information.

www.pbs.org

 

[rampart]

So every society saw this first and it was explained to them it was an alphabet of someone elses language. So other people came up with their own versions. Thanks.

this one is the 3 minute trauler that answers how the letters evolved (does not reqyure sign in)

How Egyptian Hieroglyphs Influenced Modern Alphabets

Learn why Egyptian hieroglyphs are hiding in modern alphabets—and how to find them.

www.pbs.org

 

[Dekster]

That's not what I said at all, not even close. You completely misunderstood. Please re-read my previous post.

BOTH are wrong according to the Bible. My point (again) is that unlike homosexuality, people are not claiming that adultery is OK, people are not out there having parades claiming adultery is something to take pride in, it is generally considered wrong, not just among Christians but among people in general. So that's why you don't see Christians on the street focusing on that sin, because (again) nearly everyone already knows it is wrong. Homosexuality is an entirely different story.

Since half of American adults are divorced and polling suggests 20% of America cheats on their spouse, your assertion that nearly everyone knows it is wrong does not comport with reality. What nearly everyone does do is come up with their own rules for thee but not for me version of morality so they can sit on their high horse and feel better about themselves . I guess they skipped that part of the Bible about God resisting the proud, but giving grace unto the humble. I guess it was too far away from the begatting porn for people to notice.

 

[buttercup]

Since half of American adults are divorced and polling suggests 20% of America cheats on their spouse, your assertion that nearly everyone knows it is wrong does not comport with reality. What nearly everyone does do is come up with their own rules for thee but not for me version of morality so they can sit on their high horse and feel better about themselves . I guess they skipped that part of the Bible about God resisting the proud, but giving grace unto the humble. I guess it was too far away from the begatting porn for people to notice.

Do you really think that people do bad things without knowing what they're doing is wrong? You must have a different view of human nature. Because from what I see in this world, a lot of people do things they know are wrong. Yes, people make excuses, but the very fact that they make excuses or try to hide their actions shows that they know its wrong. And that goes along with what the bible says about humanity. The bible teaches that the natural state of mankind (before spiritual birth) is fallen, sinful.

I've said this many times before but I'll say it again. An excellent book to read on this topic is Mere Christianity, by C.S Lewis. Especially the first few chapters of that book are a must-read, he explains it all so well.

 

[peacefan]

Our retreat from Christianity doesn’t mean we’ve lost our sense of morality | Kenan Malik

Those who moan that we’re losing our religion are quick to demonise the most vulnerable

www.theguardian.com

Yet the history of Christianity itself shows that it is not belief in God that defines our moral values but our moral values that shape the way we think about God. Christians (like those of many faiths) once enslaved fellow human beings, burned witches and killed adulterers, believing such practices to have divine sanction. Few Christians today would regard such practices as morally acceptable. Not because God has changed his mind but because humans have.

Collective social struggle – from campaigns to abolish slavery to battles for women’s rights – have been underpinned by moral considerations while becoming also the source of moral development. Such struggles have transformed our moral universe, and in so doing transformed, also, what believers imagine God deems to be good.

I cant see how this can be argued with.The people who campaigned aganst slavery may have been Christians but they were also good people who recognised it as evil.
It was their personal morality rather than any shift in the attitude of the churvh.

Life is generally better now that it was a century,or 2 centuries, back. But that is because we are better people rather than a shift in faith.

You could argue that art is more influential than the church in this.

i like to think it's entirely possible for God to change His mind about things just before, or around the same time, as His believers do.

 

[badger2]

i like to think it's entirely possible for God to change His mind about things just before, or around the same time, as His believers do.

Please get a grip. You're thinking about a non-existent entity.

 

[peacefan]

Please get a grip. You're thinking about a non-existent entity.

He's very real in my world. And in the worlds of many others too.

 

[Dragonlady]

No matter which way it does it still doesn't stop humans from being assholes.

And it doesn’t mean atheists aren’t moral and upright people. Religion is no guarantee of morality.

 

[Blues Man]

Morality originates in humanism religion borrowed it and added gods, sin, damnation and salvation

 

[Tommy Tainant]

If you take the Mormon Church as an example.

They used to believe that polygamy was fine. They used to believe that black people were less than human.

Now they dont.

The prevailing morality of the time changed that religion for the better. The religion did not change morality.

I do think that the Pope was referencing things like this when discussing conservatism the other week. Perhaps conservatism isnt the word.

On the other hand the Prosperity Gospel is not a part of any Christian tradition. Has "greed is good" morality changed religion ?

 

[2aguy]

Our retreat from Christianity doesn’t mean we’ve lost our sense of morality | Kenan Malik

Those who moan that we’re losing our religion are quick to demonise the most vulnerable

www.theguardian.com

Yet the history of Christianity itself shows that it is not belief in God that defines our moral values but our moral values that shape the way we think about God. Christians (like those of many faiths) once enslaved fellow human beings, burned witches and killed adulterers, believing such practices to have divine sanction. Few Christians today would regard such practices as morally acceptable. Not because God has changed his mind but because humans have.

Collective social struggle – from campaigns to abolish slavery to battles for women’s rights – have been underpinned by moral considerations while becoming also the source of moral development. Such struggles have transformed our moral universe, and in so doing transformed, also, what believers imagine God deems to be good.

I cant see how this can be argued with.The people who campaigned aganst slavery may have been Christians but they were also good people who recognised it as evil.
It was their personal morality rather than any shift in the attitude of the churvh.

Life is generally better now that it was a century,or 2 centuries, back. But that is because we are better people rather than a shift in faith.

You could argue that art is more influential than the church in this.

Religion shapes morality....what we have from Judaism and Christianity...

What Does God Most Care About?

townhall.com

 

[Blues Man]

Religion shapes morality....what we have from Judaism and Christianity...

What Does God Most Care About?

townhall.com

Religion attached sin to the idea of morality.