Does God want us to judge him?

[Taz]

So if I get shot by a robber... it's my fault?

I wast talking about your body which is only temporary and finite. I was talking about the essence of who and what you are.

So the shooter is shooting with his essence, but he only hits a body, not another essence. Got it.

I don’t believe you do. The body dies but the soul lives on. Only you can damage your soul.

Damage it how? Like a dent? GOT ANY FUCKING PROOF???

If your soul were a material thing it would look like Gollum.

So it's personal opinion. Got it.

 

[Taz]

I don't read comic books, that's why I said that.

Why not? You believe all sorts of other stupid shit.

Like what? Name 3.

You are damaging your soul.

You place yourself above all others.

You have traded the truth for a lie.

Got proof?

You don't know that from this stupid board.

Traded what truth for what lie?

Your posts are my proof. Your behaviors are my proof.

You traded the truth of a creator for the lie of the created.

You have yet to prove a creator. Just speculation and fartsmoke.

 

[ding]

I wast talking about your body which is only temporary and finite. I was talking about the essence of who and what you are.

So the shooter is shooting with his essence, but he only hits a body, not another essence. Got it.

I don’t believe you do. The body dies but the soul lives on. Only you can damage your soul.

Damage it how? Like a dent? GOT ANY FUCKING PROOF???

If your soul were a material thing it would look like Gollum.

So it's personal opinion. Got it.

No. I can see it. Everyone can.

 

[ding]

Why not? You believe all sorts of other stupid shit.

Like what? Name 3.

You are damaging your soul.

You place yourself above all others.

You have traded the truth for a lie.

Got proof?

You don't know that from this stupid board.

Traded what truth for what lie?

Your posts are my proof. Your behaviors are my proof.

You traded the truth of a creator for the lie of the created.

You have yet to prove a creator. Just speculation and fartsmoke.

Sure I proved it. Space and time were created from no thing. Spirit is no thing.

 

[ding]

I don’t know anyone (who understands logic) who would deny that logic is objective.

I'm not denying that. I am saying it is a manmade construct. I reject your conditional statement, "If manmade, therefore subjective". Unless you want to agree that, say, we merely discovered logic and mathematics, instead of inventing them. I'm cool with that.

But no, logic does not show us truth. Again, I can easily form a valid argument, defying no rules of logic, why unicorns simply must make ice cream in the 6th dimension.

I’m glad that at least you acknowledge that logic is objective, but you’re very wrong in claiming that it’s man-made. Objective truths are universal, they are true for everyone, everywhere, regardless of what we believe. Objective truths are not man-made...in the same way that we didn’t create the universe itself, or the physical laws of the universe, like gravity, etc. It is absurd to think otherwise.

Yes we can agree that we discover logic and mathematics, instead of inventing them. But when you say that, you seem to be contradicting yourself by also claiming it’s man-made.

And I didn’t make the claim that logic shows us truth. But logic is an example of objective universal truth, and one that clearly involves intelligence. As I said earlier, once you can admit that certain things exist universally, that are real, but immaterial… it will be easier for you to accept the existence of God. Which I know you don’t want to do, but I’m just saying…

You're making claims to "Objective truths are universal, they are true for everyone". Clearly they are not.

I do not think there is such a thing as "Objective truths are universal". And, if you look at the history of Christianity, Judaism and Islam you will realize that neither do those religious beliefs. The deeds that they (sometimes) condemn now are the same ones that they performed in antiquity. No institution in history has changed its moral stance as much as the religious institutions. Humanistic ethics are based on compassion and reason, and are far more moral than those based on the bribery of future reward or the fear of future torture. Would you want your child to do the right thing because he knew it was the right thing to do, or because he wanted a reward and feared a punishment?

The problem with the theistic application of attributes to the gods is the suggestion of an "objective” or a “moral” God(s). It means nothing in human context. What does it mean? How do you define an objective or moral god(s) when you cannot be the god from the god's perspective? My complaint regarding the morality of the gods is based exclusively on the listed ethics in the various holy texts which fall far short of present day ethics man applies in modern day civilization. That is why there is such outrage against sharia in Moslem countries. It's not because they go "against the word of God" -- but because they adhere to the word of god. Why is that?

The expectation is for a universal truth. Subjectivity keeps everyone from seeing it. Truth is discovered. I already explained this.

If there is a universal code of common decency that is independent of man how come we all don't behave the same way when it comes to right and wrong? The reason man doesn't behave the same way is because of subjectivity. The difference between being objective and being subjective is bias. Bias is eliminated when there is no preference for an outcome. To eliminate a preference for an outcome one must have no thought of the consequences to one's self. If one does not practice this they will see subjective truth instead of objective truth. Subjective truth leads to moral relativism. Where consequences to self and preferences for an outcome leads to rationalizations of right and wrong.

Man does know right from wrong and when he violates it rather than abandoning the concept of right and wrong he rationalizes he did not violate it. You can see this behavior in almost all quarrels and disagreements. At the heart of every quarrel and disagreement is a belief in a universal right and wrong. So even though each side believes right to be different each side expects the other to believe their side should be universally known and accepted. It is this behavior which tells us there is an expectation for an absolute truth.


If there were never a universal truth that existed man would never have an expectation of fairness to begin with because fairness would have no meaning. The fact that each of us has an expectation of fairness and that we expect everyone else to follow ought to raise our suspicion on the origin of that expectation.

I find it ironic that you would reference universal truths when your gods have no real interest in those attributes. A god of love and justice who drowns the world, sends plagues, brings down civilizations, he allows maniacal generals to slay thousands upon his command. He will allow vials of death and disease and chaos and mayhem to reign supreme, and he will let you go to hell for all time for not "choosing correctly".

How about slavery. Is it a universal truth that slavery is condemnable? What do the gods have to say about slavery in the Bible’s?

I find it ironic that you would reference universal truths when your gods have no real interest in those attributes.

If you do not believe that spirit created the material world then you cannot believe that you know what attributes God has interest in.

A god of love and justice who drowns the world, sends plagues, brings down civilizations, he allows maniacal generals to slay thousands upon his command. He will allow vials of death and disease and chaos and mayhem to reign supreme, and he will let you go to hell for all time for not "choosing correctly".

The first five books of the Bible (known as the Torah) were written by Moses - an adopted son of the king of Egypt - in approximately 1400 B.C.. These five books focus on the beginning of the nation of Israel; but the first 11 chapters of the Torah records the history that all nations have in common. These allegorical accounts of the history of the world had been passed down from generation to generation orally for thousands of years. Moses did not write the first 11 chapters of the Bible. Moses was the first Hebrew to record them. Approximately 1500 years before Moses recorded the allegorical accounts of the history of the world. The Chinese recorded this history as symbols in the Chinese language. They drew pictures to express words or ideas. Simple pictures were combined to make more complex thoughts. They used well known history and common everyday things to make a word so people could easily remember it. The account of Genesis found it's way into the Chinese written language because the Chinese had migrated from the cradle of civilization. Prior to this migration they all shared a common history and religion. The Bible even explains how it was possible for the Chinese to record the account of Genesis 1500 years before Moses recorded it. The account of the Tower of Babel was the allegorical account of the great migration from Mesopotamia. This also explains why all ancient cultures have an account of a great flood. Because they all shared a common history and religion before the great migration from the cradle of civilization.

So if we start from the belief that the first eleven chapters of the Torah are an allegorical account of world history before the great migration from Mesopotamia - which was an actual historical event - then the first eleven chapters of the Torah takes on new meaning. Seen in this light these accounts should be viewed less like fairy tales and more like how important information was passed down in ancient times. Just as the Chinese used well known history and everyday things as symbols in their written language to make words easier to remember, ancient man used stories to pass down historical events and important knowledge to future generations. Interspersed in these allegorical accounts of history are wisdoms that they deemed important enough to pass down and remember. Such as man knows right from wrong and when he violates it, rather than abandoning the concept of right and wrong he rationalizes he didn't do wrong. Most people don't even realize this wisdom is in the Torah because they read it critically instead of searching for the wisdom that ancient man knew and found important enough to include in his account of world history. We have to keep in mind that these accounts are 6,000 years old and were passed down orally from one generation to the next for thousands of years. Surely ancient man believed these accounts were of the utmost importance otherwise they would not have been passed down for thousands of years before they were recorded in writing. We shouldn't view these accounts using the context of the modern world. Unfortunately, we are so far removed from these events that we have lost all original meaning. If you were to ask almost any Jew what the Tower of Babel was about he would have no clue that it was the allegorical account of the great migration from the cradle of civilization. That is not intended to be a criticism. It is intended to be an illustration of just how difficult a task it is to discover the original meaning from ancient accounts from 6,000 years ago. We read these texts like they were written yesterday looking for ways to discredit them and make ourselves feel superior rather than seeking the original meaning and wisdom. Shame on you for taking these accounts out of context and believing they are more than they actually are. .

How about slavery. Is it a universal truth that slavery is condemnable? What do the gods have to say about slavery in the Bible’s?

Slavery is a perfect example of how truth is discovered. There is a final state of fact for all things. We call this reality or objective truth. Once it is discovered it is known that it was always this way and will always be that way. In other words, objective truth or reality is eternal and unchanging. Just like the no thing that created the material world. In effect, objective truth or reality is existence which is exactly how ancient man understood God to be.

So getting back to the subject of slavery, slavery has been around since the beginning of man. The Greeks justified it on the grounds that they were morally superior. The Romans believed that it was against the law of nature, but justified it on the grounds of state superiority. America's founding fathers believed it was against the law of nature, knew not how to end it at the time of founding, intended for it to perish and put in place plans to bring about the demise of slavery.

You seem to be ignoring the differences between forced slavery (which the Bible did not condone) and indentured servitude. You are ignoring the fact that no matter how harsh you think these passages were, they were still less harsh than what their contemporaries were doing. You are ignoring that there was ever an explicit endorsement of those actions in the Bible for indentured servitude. And you are ignoring that both the OT and NT forbid forced slavery.

 

[Taz]

Like what? Name 3.

You are damaging your soul.

You place yourself above all others.

You have traded the truth for a lie.

Got proof?

You don't know that from this stupid board.

Traded what truth for what lie?

Your posts are my proof. Your behaviors are my proof.

You traded the truth of a creator for the lie of the created.

You have yet to prove a creator. Just speculation and fartsmoke.

Sure I proved it. Space and time were created from no thing. Spirit is no thing.

You've never proven anything with real scientific proof, it's all because you say so.

 

[Hollie]

I'm not denying that. I am saying it is a manmade construct. I reject your conditional statement, "If manmade, therefore subjective". Unless you want to agree that, say, we merely discovered logic and mathematics, instead of inventing them. I'm cool with that.

But no, logic does not show us truth. Again, I can easily form a valid argument, defying no rules of logic, why unicorns simply must make ice cream in the 6th dimension.

I’m glad that at least you acknowledge that logic is objective, but you’re very wrong in claiming that it’s man-made. Objective truths are universal, they are true for everyone, everywhere, regardless of what we believe. Objective truths are not man-made...in the same way that we didn’t create the universe itself, or the physical laws of the universe, like gravity, etc. It is absurd to think otherwise.

Yes we can agree that we discover logic and mathematics, instead of inventing them. But when you say that, you seem to be contradicting yourself by also claiming it’s man-made.

And I didn’t make the claim that logic shows us truth. But logic is an example of objective universal truth, and one that clearly involves intelligence. As I said earlier, once you can admit that certain things exist universally, that are real, but immaterial… it will be easier for you to accept the existence of God. Which I know you don’t want to do, but I’m just saying…

You're making claims to "Objective truths are universal, they are true for everyone". Clearly they are not.

I do not think there is such a thing as "Objective truths are universal". And, if you look at the history of Christianity, Judaism and Islam you will realize that neither do those religious beliefs. The deeds that they (sometimes) condemn now are the same ones that they performed in antiquity. No institution in history has changed its moral stance as much as the religious institutions. Humanistic ethics are based on compassion and reason, and are far more moral than those based on the bribery of future reward or the fear of future torture. Would you want your child to do the right thing because he knew it was the right thing to do, or because he wanted a reward and feared a punishment?

The problem with the theistic application of attributes to the gods is the suggestion of an "objective” or a “moral” God(s). It means nothing in human context. What does it mean? How do you define an objective or moral god(s) when you cannot be the god from the god's perspective? My complaint regarding the morality of the gods is based exclusively on the listed ethics in the various holy texts which fall far short of present day ethics man applies in modern day civilization. That is why there is such outrage against sharia in Moslem countries. It's not because they go "against the word of God" -- but because they adhere to the word of god. Why is that?

The expectation is for a universal truth. Subjectivity keeps everyone from seeing it. Truth is discovered. I already explained this.

If there is a universal code of common decency that is independent of man how come we all don't behave the same way when it comes to right and wrong? The reason man doesn't behave the same way is because of subjectivity. The difference between being objective and being subjective is bias. Bias is eliminated when there is no preference for an outcome. To eliminate a preference for an outcome one must have no thought of the consequences to one's self. If one does not practice this they will see subjective truth instead of objective truth. Subjective truth leads to moral relativism. Where consequences to self and preferences for an outcome leads to rationalizations of right and wrong.

Man does know right from wrong and when he violates it rather than abandoning the concept of right and wrong he rationalizes he did not violate it. You can see this behavior in almost all quarrels and disagreements. At the heart of every quarrel and disagreement is a belief in a universal right and wrong. So even though each side believes right to be different each side expects the other to believe their side should be universally known and accepted. It is this behavior which tells us there is an expectation for an absolute truth.


If there were never a universal truth that existed man would never have an expectation of fairness to begin with because fairness would have no meaning. The fact that each of us has an expectation of fairness and that we expect everyone else to follow ought to raise our suspicion on the origin of that expectation.

I find it ironic that you would reference universal truths when your gods have no real interest in those attributes. A god of love and justice who drowns the world, sends plagues, brings down civilizations, he allows maniacal generals to slay thousands upon his command. He will allow vials of death and disease and chaos and mayhem to reign supreme, and he will let you go to hell for all time for not "choosing correctly".

How about slavery. Is it a universal truth that slavery is condemnable? What do the gods have to say about slavery in the Bible’s?

I find it ironic that you would reference universal truths when your gods have no real interest in those attributes.

If you do not believe that spirit created the material world then you cannot believe that you know what attributes God has interest in.

A god of love and justice who drowns the world, sends plagues, brings down civilizations, he allows maniacal generals to slay thousands upon his command. He will allow vials of death and disease and chaos and mayhem to reign supreme, and he will let you go to hell for all time for not "choosing correctly".

The first five books of the Bible (known as the Torah) were written by Moses - an adopted son of the king of Egypt - in approximately 1400 B.C.. These five books focus on the beginning of the nation of Israel; but the first 11 chapters of the Torah records the history that all nations have in common. These allegorical accounts of the history of the world had been passed down from generation to generation orally for thousands of years. Moses did not write the first 11 chapters of the Bible. Moses was the first Hebrew to record them. Approximately 1500 years before Moses recorded the allegorical accounts of the history of the world. The Chinese recorded this history as symbols in the Chinese language. They drew pictures to express words or ideas. Simple pictures were combined to make more complex thoughts. They used well known history and common everyday things to make a word so people could easily remember it. The account of Genesis found it's way into the Chinese written language because the Chinese had migrated from the cradle of civilization. Prior to this migration they all shared a common history and religion. The Bible even explains how it was possible for the Chinese to record the account of Genesis 1500 years before Moses recorded it. The account of the Tower of Babel was the allegorical account of the great migration from Mesopotamia. This also explains why all ancient cultures have an account of a great flood. Because they all shared a common history and religion before the great migration from the cradle of civilization.

So if we start from the belief that the first eleven chapters of the Torah are an allegorical account of world history before the great migration from Mesopotamia - which was an actual historical event - then the first eleven chapters of the Torah takes on new meaning. Seen in this light these accounts should be viewed less like fairy tales and more like how important information was passed down in ancient times. Just as the Chinese used well known history and everyday things as symbols in their written language to make words easier to remember, ancient man used stories to pass down historical events and important knowledge to future generations. Interspersed in these allegorical accounts of history are wisdoms that they deemed important enough to pass down and remember. Such as man knows right from wrong and when he violates it, rather than abandoning the concept of right and wrong he rationalizes he didn't do wrong. Most people don't even realize this wisdom is in the Torah because they read it critically instead of searching for the wisdom that ancient man knew and found important enough to include in his account of world history. We have to keep in mind that these accounts are 6,000 years old and were passed down orally from one generation to the next for thousands of years. Surely ancient man believed these accounts were of the utmost importance otherwise they would not have been passed down for thousands of years before they were recorded in writing. We shouldn't view these accounts using the context of the modern world. Unfortunately, we are so far removed from these events that we have lost all original meaning. If you were to ask almost any Jew what the Tower of Babel was about he would have no clue that it was the allegorical account of the great migration from the cradle of civilization. That is not intended to be a criticism. It is intended to be an illustration of just how difficult a task it is to discover the original meaning from ancient accounts from 6,000 years ago. We read these texts like they were written yesterday looking for ways to discredit them and make ourselves feel superior rather than seeking the original meaning and wisdom. Shame on you for taking these accounts out of context and believing they are more than they actually are. .

How about slavery. Is it a universal truth that slavery is condemnable? What do the gods have to say about slavery in the Bible’s?

Slavery is a perfect example of how truth is discovered. There is a final state of fact for all things. We call this reality or objective truth. Once it is discovered it is known that it was always this way and will always be that way. In other words, objective truth or reality is eternal and unchanging. Just like the no thing that created the material world. In effect, objective truth or reality is existence which is exactly how ancient man understood God to be.

So getting back to the subject of slavery, slavery has been around since the beginning of man. The Greeks justified it on the grounds that they were morally superior. The Romans believed that it was against the law of nature, but justified it on the grounds of state superiority. America's founding fathers believed it was against the law of nature, knew not how to end it at the time of founding, intended for it to perish and put in place plans to bring about the demise of slavery.

You seem to be ignoring the differences between forced slavery (which the Bible did not condone) and indentured servitude. You are ignoring the fact that no matter how harsh you think these passages were, they were still less harsh than what their contemporaries were doing. You are ignoring that there was ever an explicit endorsement of those actions in the Bible for indentured servitude. And you are ignoring that both the OT and NT forbid forced slavery.

Is there some reason why you feel a need to spam thread after thread with the same cut and paste wall of text?

Ignoring your spam wall, why is an allowance made for slavery in the bibles?

 

[ding]

At the heart of this discussion are the two options; space and time was created by no thing or it wasn't. You being a thing can never understand a no thing. The closest you will ever be able to understand a no thing that creates space and time is a mind without a body.

Another of the "..... because I say so" claims you cut and paste across multiple threads, totally unsupported.

I don't say so. Logic says so. All other possibilities reduce to these two lowest common denominators; space and time was created by no thing or it wasn't..

The rules of logic don’t resolve to magic and supernaturalism.

It’s only magic to you because being a thing you can’t relate to a no thing.
So you call it magic when in reality it is like consciousness that exists independent from a material body. Of course you can’t relate to it and act the way you do. You are threatened by what you don’t understand.

I just find it concerning that you are detached from reality.
Your religion of spirit realms is entirely a function of belief in magic. I would suggest we can alternately define magic as submitting to fear and superstition.

How really convenient that your spirit realms are excempt from any examination by rational science.

Creationist dogma will never increase our understanding or knowledge of the physical world because knowledge is antithetical to the creationist. What is not already written in the bible is relegated to the unknowable hand of God moving in his creation. Fear and superstition has caused the Genesis story to be repeated for three thousand years and we know no more of existence now than when that tale was first written by the hand of man. In the last two hundred years of taking a scientific approach to studying the natural world, we have learned most of what we know about how living things work.

I just find it concerning that you are detached from reality.

You believe I am detached from reality because I believe the heart of this debate comes down to the material world being created by spirit versus everything proceeding from the material?

Or is it that you believe I am detached from reality because I believe we should make an objective analysis of whether the material world was created by spirit versus everything proceeding from the material?

Or is it that you believe I am detached from reality because we should stop reading Genesis like it is a fairy tale, but rather what it is which is how important information was passed down in ancient times? Through allegorical accounts of historical events which had important wisdoms interspersed with these accounts. That they chose to do it this way to make the events and lessons easier to remember so that that knowledge could be passed down from one generation to the next.

Or is it that you believe I am detached from reality because I believe ancient man thought so highly of these accounts that they passed it down for thousands of years.

Prey tell... please tell me which part of these beliefs are delusional. I would really appreciate hearing the opinion of someone like you who is so obviously knowledgeable about these things and can make logical arguments for her beliefs and not rely upon unsubstantiated rhetoric.

Your religion of spirit realms is entirely a function of belief in magic. I would suggest we can alternately define magic as submitting to fear and superstition.

Actually, no, it isn't. My belief starts with the logical assumption that either spirit created the material world or everything proceeded from the material. There are no other logical options.

You call it magic because you cannot perceive anything beyond the material world. Yet we know the material world cannot exist forever without achieving thermal equilibrium. So the only logical answer to what created space and time is no thing. Spirit is no thing. The closest any of us can come to understanding something which is not material and exists outside of time and space is consciousness without a body. And when we examine the only evidence we can examine, which is creation itself, we find that a case can be made for the material world being created by spirit or consciousness without material form. Specifically, the laws of nature; physical, biological and moral. We know that the physical and biological laws predestined being that know and create would eventually arise. We know that the physical laws tell us that space and time was created by no thing. And we know from the moral laws that there is an expectation for a universal truth based upon the concept of fairness.

How really convenient that your spirit realms are excempt from any examination by rational science.

I just explained to you how science can be used to study the creation of space and time and what that study tells us. You are the one who has no science to support your position. Please share with me your science, Hollie. I really want to know what you know.

Creationist dogma will never increase our understanding or knowledge of the physical world because knowledge is antithetical to the creationist. What is not already written in the bible is relegated to the unknowable hand of God moving in his creation. Fear and superstition has caused the Genesis story to be repeated for three thousand years and we know no more of existence now than when that tale was first written by the hand of man. In the last two hundred years of taking a scientific approach to studying the natural world, we have learned most of what we know about how living things work.

I have not come within 100 miles of creationist dogma, Hollie. I am making a logical argument for spirit creating the material world. Certainly not an argument built of fairy tales that's for sure. So going back to the two possibilities; spirit creating the material world versus everything proceeding from the material, the key distinction is no thing versus thing. So if we believe as you do that everything is just an accidental coincidence of the properties of matter, the logical conclusion is that matter and energy are just doing what matter and energy do which makes sense. The problem you have is that for matter and energy to do what matter and energy do, there has to be rules in place for matter and energy to obey. The formation of space and time followed rules. Specifically the law of conservation and quantum mechanics. These laws existed before space and time and defined the potential of everything which was possible. These laws are no thing. So we literally have an example of no thing existing before the material world. The creation of space and time from nothing is literally correct. Space and time were created from no thing. Spirit is no thing. No thing created space and time.

 

[Hollie]

Another of the "..... because I say so" claims you cut and paste across multiple threads, totally unsupported.

I don't say so. Logic says so. All other possibilities reduce to these two lowest common denominators; space and time was created by no thing or it wasn't..

The rules of logic don’t resolve to magic and supernaturalism.

It’s only magic to you because being a thing you can’t relate to a no thing.
So you call it magic when in reality it is like consciousness that exists independent from a material body. Of course you can’t relate to it and act the way you do. You are threatened by what you don’t understand.

I just find it concerning that you are detached from reality.
Your religion of spirit realms is entirely a function of belief in magic. I would suggest we can alternately define magic as submitting to fear and superstition.

How really convenient that your spirit realms are excempt from any examination by rational science.

Creationist dogma will never increase our understanding or knowledge of the physical world because knowledge is antithetical to the creationist. What is not already written in the bible is relegated to the unknowable hand of God moving in his creation. Fear and superstition has caused the Genesis story to be repeated for three thousand years and we know no more of existence now than when that tale was first written by the hand of man. In the last two hundred years of taking a scientific approach to studying the natural world, we have learned most of what we know about how living things work.

I just find it concerning that you are detached from reality.

You believe I am detached from reality because I believe the heart of this debate comes down to the material world being created by spirit versus everything proceeding from the material?

Or is it that you believe I am detached from reality because I believe we should make an objective analysis of whether the material world was created by spirit versus everything proceeding from the material?

Or is it that you believe I am detached from reality because we should stop reading Genesis like it is a fairy tale, but rather what it is which is how important information was passed down in ancient times? Through allegorical accounts of historical events which had important wisdoms interspersed with these accounts. That they chose to do it this way to make the events and lessons easier to remember so that that knowledge could be passed down from one generation to the next.

Or is it that you believe I am detached from reality because I believe ancient man thought so highly of these accounts that they passed it down for thousands of years.

Prey tell... please tell me which part of these beliefs are delusional. I would really appreciate hearing the opinion of someone like you who is so obviously knowledgeable about these things and can make logical arguments for her beliefs and not rely upon unsubstantiated rhetoric.

Your religion of spirit realms is entirely a function of belief in magic. I would suggest we can alternately define magic as submitting to fear and superstition.

Actually, no, it isn't. My belief starts with the logical assumption that either spirit created the material world or everything proceeded from the material. There are no other logical options.

You call it magic because you cannot perceive anything beyond the material world. Yet we know the material world cannot exist forever without achieving thermal equilibrium. So the only logical answer to what created space and time is no thing. Spirit is no thing. The closest any of us can come to understanding something which is not material and exists outside of time and space is consciousness without a body. And when we examine the only evidence we can examine, which is creation itself, we find that a case can be made for the material world being created by spirit or consciousness without material form. Specifically, the laws of nature; physical, biological and moral. We know that the physical and biological laws predestined being that know and create would eventually arise. We know that the physical laws tell us that space and time was created by no thing. And we know from the moral laws that there is an expectation for a universal truth based upon the concept of fairness.

How really convenient that your spirit realms are excempt from any examination by rational science.

I just explained to you how science can be used to study the creation of space and time and what that study tells us. You are the one who has no science to support your position. Please share with me your science, Hollie. I really want to know what you know.

Creationist dogma will never increase our understanding or knowledge of the physical world because knowledge is antithetical to the creationist. What is not already written in the bible is relegated to the unknowable hand of God moving in his creation. Fear and superstition has caused the Genesis story to be repeated for three thousand years and we know no more of existence now than when that tale was first written by the hand of man. In the last two hundred years of taking a scientific approach to studying the natural world, we have learned most of what we know about how living things work.

I have not come within 100 miles of creationist dogma, Hollie. I am making a logical argument for spirit creating the material world. Certainly not an argument built of fairy tales that's for sure. So going back to the two possibilities; spirit creating the material world versus everything proceeding from the material, the key distinction is no thing versus thing. So if we believe as you do that everything is just an accidental coincidence of the properties of matter, the logical conclusion is that matter and energy are just doing what matter and energy do which makes sense. The problem you have is that for matter and energy to do what matter and energy do, there has to be rules in place for matter and energy to obey. The formation of space and time followed rules. Specifically the law of conservation and quantum mechanics. These laws existed before space and time and defined the potential of everything which was possible. These laws are no thing. So we literally have an example of no thing existing before the material world. The creation of space and time from nothing is literally correct. Space and time were created from no thing. Spirit is no thing. No thing created space and time.

That's really just boilerplate creationist dogma.

Tell us more about your alleged spirit realms. Other than creationist claims that amount to ".... because I say so" to support the veracity of the spirit worlds, what separates your spirit realms from competing claims to spirit realms?

 

[ding]

You are damaging your soul.

You place yourself above all others.

You have traded the truth for a lie.

Got proof?

You don't know that from this stupid board.

Traded what truth for what lie?

Your posts are my proof. Your behaviors are my proof.

You traded the truth of a creator for the lie of the created.

You have yet to prove a creator. Just speculation and fartsmoke.

Sure I proved it. Space and time were created from no thing. Spirit is no thing.

You've never proven anything with real scientific proof, it's all because you say so.

Nope. If you start with a realistic perception of God and examine the evidence at our disposal, it should be obvious that if the material world were not created by spirit that everything that has unfolded in the evolution of space and time would have no intentional purpose. That it is just matter and energy doing what matter and energy do. Conversely, if the material world were created by spirit it should be obvious that the creation of the material world was intentional. After all in my perception of God, God is no thing and the closest thing I can relate to is a mind with no body. Using our own experiences as creators as a proxy, we know that when we create things we create them for a reason and that reason is to serve some purpose. So it would be no great leap of logic to believe that something like a mind with no body would do the same. We also know from our experiences that intelligence tends to create intelligence. We are obsessed with making smart things. So what better thing for a mind with no body to do than create a universe where beings with bodies can create smart things too.

The biological laws are such that life is programmed to survive and multiply which is a requisite for intelligence to arise. If the purpose of the universe was to create intelligence then a preference in nature for it had to exist. The Laws of Nature are such that the potential for intelligence to existed the moment space and time were created. One can argue that given the laws of nature and the size of the universe that intelligence arising was inevitable. One can also argue that creating intelligence from nothing defies the Second Law of Entropy. That creating intelligence from nothing increases order within the universe. It actually doesn't because usable energy was lost along the way as a cost of creating order from disorder. But it is nature overriding it's tendency for ever increasing disorder that interests me and raises my suspicions to look deeper and to take seriously the proposition that a mind without a body created the material world so that minds with bodies could create too.

If we examine the physical laws we discover that we live in a logical universe governed by rules, laws and information. Rules laws and information are a signs of intelligence. Intentionality and purpose are signs of intelligence. The definition of reason is a cause, explanation, or justification for an action or event. The definition of purpose is the reason for which something is done or created or for which something exists. The consequence of a logical universe is that every cause has an effect. Which means that everything happens for a reason and serves a purpose. The very nature of our physical laws point to reason and purpose.

All we have done so far is to make a logical argument for spirit creating the material world. Certainly not an argument built of fairy tales that's for sure. So going back to the two possibilities; spirit creating the material world versus everything proceeding from the material, the key distinction is no thing versus thing. So if we assume that everything I have described was just an accidental coincidence of the properties of matter, the logical conclusion is that matter and energy are just doing what matter and energy do which makes sense. The problem is that for matter and energy to do what matter and energy do, there has to be rules in place for matter and energy to obey. The formation of space and time followed rules. Specifically the law of conservation and quantum mechanics. These laws existed before space and time and defined the potential of everything which was possible. These laws are no thing. So we literally have an example of no thing existing before the material world. The creation of space and time from nothing is literally correct. Space and time were created from no thing. Spirit is no thing. No thing created space and time.

 

[ding]

^ real scientific proof

 

[Taz]

Got proof?

You don't know that from this stupid board.

Traded what truth for what lie?

Your posts are my proof. Your behaviors are my proof.

You traded the truth of a creator for the lie of the created.

You have yet to prove a creator. Just speculation and fartsmoke.

Sure I proved it. Space and time were created from no thing. Spirit is no thing.

You've never proven anything with real scientific proof, it's all because you say so.

Nope. If you start with a realistic perception of God and examine the evidence at our disposal, it should be obvious that if the material world were not created by spirit that everything that has unfolded in the evolution of space and time would have no intentional purpose. That it is just matter and energy doing what matter and energy do. Conversely, if the material world were created by spirit it should be obvious that the creation of the material world was intentional. After all in my perception of God, God is no thing and the closest thing I can relate to is a mind with no body. Using our own experiences as creators as a proxy, we know that when we create things we create them for a reason and that reason is to serve some purpose. So it would be no great leap of logic to believe that something like a mind with no body would do the same. We also know from our experiences that intelligence tends to create intelligence. We are obsessed with making smart things. So what better thing for a mind with no body to do than create a universe where beings with bodies can create smart things too.

The biological laws are such that life is programmed to survive and multiply which is a requisite for intelligence to arise. If the purpose of the universe was to create intelligence then a preference in nature for it had to exist. The Laws of Nature are such that the potential for intelligence to existed the moment space and time were created. One can argue that given the laws of nature and the size of the universe that intelligence arising was inevitable. One can also argue that creating intelligence from nothing defies the Second Law of Entropy. That creating intelligence from nothing increases order within the universe. It actually doesn't because usable energy was lost along the way as a cost of creating order from disorder. But it is nature overriding it's tendency for ever increasing disorder that interests me and raises my suspicions to look deeper and to take seriously the proposition that a mind without a body created the material world so that minds with bodies could create too.

If we examine the physical laws we discover that we live in a logical universe governed by rules, laws and information. Rules laws and information are a signs of intelligence. Intentionality and purpose are signs of intelligence. The definition of reason is a cause, explanation, or justification for an action or event. The definition of purpose is the reason for which something is done or created or for which something exists. The consequence of a logical universe is that every cause has an effect. Which means that everything happens for a reason and serves a purpose. The very nature of our physical laws point to reason and purpose.

All we have done so far is to make a logical argument for spirit creating the material world. Certainly not an argument built of fairy tales that's for sure. So going back to the two possibilities; spirit creating the material world versus everything proceeding from the material, the key distinction is no thing versus thing. So if we assume that everything I have described was just an accidental coincidence of the properties of matter, the logical conclusion is that matter and energy are just doing what matter and energy do which makes sense. The problem is that for matter and energy to do what matter and energy do, there has to be rules in place for matter and energy to obey. The formation of space and time followed rules. Specifically the law of conservation and quantum mechanics. These laws existed before space and time and defined the potential of everything which was possible. These laws are no thing. So we literally have an example of no thing existing before the material world. The creation of space and time from nothing is literally correct. Space and time were created from no thing. Spirit is no thing. No thing created space and time.

Me no speak Mumbo-Jumbo.

 

[Taz]

^ real scientific proof

Do you have Asperger's or something like that? Try a gofundme page so you can buy a clue.

 

[Hollie]

Got proof?

You don't know that from this stupid board.

Traded what truth for what lie?

Your posts are my proof. Your behaviors are my proof.

You traded the truth of a creator for the lie of the created.

You have yet to prove a creator. Just speculation and fartsmoke.

Sure I proved it. Space and time were created from no thing. Spirit is no thing.

You've never proven anything with real scientific proof, it's all because you say so.

Nope. If you start with a realistic perception of God and examine the evidence at our disposal, it should be obvious that if the material world were not created by spirit that everything that has unfolded in the evolution of space and time would have no intentional purpose. That it is just matter and energy doing what matter and energy do. Conversely, if the material world were created by spirit it should be obvious that the creation of the material world was intentional. After all in my perception of God, God is no thing and the closest thing I can relate to is a mind with no body. Using our own experiences as creators as a proxy, we know that when we create things we create them for a reason and that reason is to serve some purpose. So it would be no great leap of logic to believe that something like a mind with no body would do the same. We also know from our experiences that intelligence tends to create intelligence. We are obsessed with making smart things. So what better thing for a mind with no body to do than create a universe where beings with bodies can create smart things too.

The biological laws are such that life is programmed to survive and multiply which is a requisite for intelligence to arise. If the purpose of the universe was to create intelligence then a preference in nature for it had to exist. The Laws of Nature are such that the potential for intelligence to existed the moment space and time were created. One can argue that given the laws of nature and the size of the universe that intelligence arising was inevitable. One can also argue that creating intelligence from nothing defies the Second Law of Entropy. That creating intelligence from nothing increases order within the universe. It actually doesn't because usable energy was lost along the way as a cost of creating order from disorder. But it is nature overriding it's tendency for ever increasing disorder that interests me and raises my suspicions to look deeper and to take seriously the proposition that a mind without a body created the material world so that minds with bodies could create too.

If we examine the physical laws we discover that we live in a logical universe governed by rules, laws and information. Rules laws and information are a signs of intelligence. Intentionality and purpose are signs of intelligence. The definition of reason is a cause, explanation, or justification for an action or event. The definition of purpose is the reason for which something is done or created or for which something exists. The consequence of a logical universe is that every cause has an effect. Which means that everything happens for a reason and serves a purpose. The very nature of our physical laws point to reason and purpose.

All we have done so far is to make a logical argument for spirit creating the material world. Certainly not an argument built of fairy tales that's for sure. So going back to the two possibilities; spirit creating the material world versus everything proceeding from the material, the key distinction is no thing versus thing. So if we assume that everything I have described was just an accidental coincidence of the properties of matter, the logical conclusion is that matter and energy are just doing what matter and energy do which makes sense. The problem is that for matter and energy to do what matter and energy do, there has to be rules in place for matter and energy to obey. The formation of space and time followed rules. Specifically the law of conservation and quantum mechanics. These laws existed before space and time and defined the potential of everything which was possible. These laws are no thing. So we literally have an example of no thing existing before the material world. The creation of space and time from nothing is literally correct. Space and time were created from no thing. Spirit is no thing. No thing created space and time.

That's an interesting comment about starting with a realistic perception of the gods.

Westerners have made the gods in their own image. It's not at all uncommon. You can try this at home - take a look at the historical gods invented by different cultures and civilizations. Those gods were so often a reflection of the cultures and civilizations which created them.

Isn't it great that western portrayals of Jesus are of a very tall, fair-skinned, blue-eyed Caucasian looking guy?

Making the gods in our own image. Don't you find it convenient (and a bit more conceited),to worship a long-haired hippie in sandals vs. a chubby Buddha?

 

[ding]

Me no speak Mumbo-Jumbo.

Do you have Asperger's or something like that? Try a gofundme page so you can buy a clue.

You played an instrumental role in helping me develop this, Tax. Thank you.

Now you will help me in planting the seeds. I can't do this without you.

 

[Hollie]

Me no speak Mumbo-Jumbo.

Do you have Asperger's or something like that? Try a gofundme page so you can buy a clue.

You played an instrumental role in helping me develop this, Tax. Thank you.

Now you will help me in planting the seeds. I can't do this without you.

I wouldn't be so quick to take credit for what you find at any of the fundamentalist creation ministries.

 

[ding]

I don't say so. Logic says so. All other possibilities reduce to these two lowest common denominators; space and time was created by no thing or it wasn't..

The rules of logic don’t resolve to magic and supernaturalism.

It’s only magic to you because being a thing you can’t relate to a no thing.
So you call it magic when in reality it is like consciousness that exists independent from a material body. Of course you can’t relate to it and act the way you do. You are threatened by what you don’t understand.

I just find it concerning that you are detached from reality.
Your religion of spirit realms is entirely a function of belief in magic. I would suggest we can alternately define magic as submitting to fear and superstition.

How really convenient that your spirit realms are excempt from any examination by rational science.

Creationist dogma will never increase our understanding or knowledge of the physical world because knowledge is antithetical to the creationist. What is not already written in the bible is relegated to the unknowable hand of God moving in his creation. Fear and superstition has caused the Genesis story to be repeated for three thousand years and we know no more of existence now than when that tale was first written by the hand of man. In the last two hundred years of taking a scientific approach to studying the natural world, we have learned most of what we know about how living things work.

I just find it concerning that you are detached from reality.

You believe I am detached from reality because I believe the heart of this debate comes down to the material world being created by spirit versus everything proceeding from the material?

Or is it that you believe I am detached from reality because I believe we should make an objective analysis of whether the material world was created by spirit versus everything proceeding from the material?

Or is it that you believe I am detached from reality because we should stop reading Genesis like it is a fairy tale, but rather what it is which is how important information was passed down in ancient times? Through allegorical accounts of historical events which had important wisdoms interspersed with these accounts. That they chose to do it this way to make the events and lessons easier to remember so that that knowledge could be passed down from one generation to the next.

Or is it that you believe I am detached from reality because I believe ancient man thought so highly of these accounts that they passed it down for thousands of years.

Prey tell... please tell me which part of these beliefs are delusional. I would really appreciate hearing the opinion of someone like you who is so obviously knowledgeable about these things and can make logical arguments for her beliefs and not rely upon unsubstantiated rhetoric.

Your religion of spirit realms is entirely a function of belief in magic. I would suggest we can alternately define magic as submitting to fear and superstition.

Actually, no, it isn't. My belief starts with the logical assumption that either spirit created the material world or everything proceeded from the material. There are no other logical options.

You call it magic because you cannot perceive anything beyond the material world. Yet we know the material world cannot exist forever without achieving thermal equilibrium. So the only logical answer to what created space and time is no thing. Spirit is no thing. The closest any of us can come to understanding something which is not material and exists outside of time and space is consciousness without a body. And when we examine the only evidence we can examine, which is creation itself, we find that a case can be made for the material world being created by spirit or consciousness without material form. Specifically, the laws of nature; physical, biological and moral. We know that the physical and biological laws predestined being that know and create would eventually arise. We know that the physical laws tell us that space and time was created by no thing. And we know from the moral laws that there is an expectation for a universal truth based upon the concept of fairness.

How really convenient that your spirit realms are excempt from any examination by rational science.

I just explained to you how science can be used to study the creation of space and time and what that study tells us. You are the one who has no science to support your position. Please share with me your science, Hollie. I really want to know what you know.

Creationist dogma will never increase our understanding or knowledge of the physical world because knowledge is antithetical to the creationist. What is not already written in the bible is relegated to the unknowable hand of God moving in his creation. Fear and superstition has caused the Genesis story to be repeated for three thousand years and we know no more of existence now than when that tale was first written by the hand of man. In the last two hundred years of taking a scientific approach to studying the natural world, we have learned most of what we know about how living things work.

I have not come within 100 miles of creationist dogma, Hollie. I am making a logical argument for spirit creating the material world. Certainly not an argument built of fairy tales that's for sure. So going back to the two possibilities; spirit creating the material world versus everything proceeding from the material, the key distinction is no thing versus thing. So if we believe as you do that everything is just an accidental coincidence of the properties of matter, the logical conclusion is that matter and energy are just doing what matter and energy do which makes sense. The problem you have is that for matter and energy to do what matter and energy do, there has to be rules in place for matter and energy to obey. The formation of space and time followed rules. Specifically the law of conservation and quantum mechanics. These laws existed before space and time and defined the potential of everything which was possible. These laws are no thing. So we literally have an example of no thing existing before the material world. The creation of space and time from nothing is literally correct. Space and time were created from no thing. Spirit is no thing. No thing created space and time.

That's really just boilerplate creationist dogma.

Tell us more about your alleged spirit realms. Other than creationist claims that amount to ".... because I say so" to support the veracity of the spirit worlds, what separates your spirit realms from competing claims to spirit realms?

No. It is a thoughtful examination of the two boundary conditions. If you assume that everything which has unfolded is just an accidental coincidence of the properties of matter, the logical conclusion is that matter and energy are just doing what matter and energy do which makes sense. The problem is that for matter and energy to do what matter and energy do, there has to be rules in place for matter and energy to obey. The formation of space and time followed rules. Specifically the law of conservation and quantum mechanics. These laws existed before space and time and defined the potential of everything which was possible. These laws are no thing. So we literally have an example of no thing existing before the material world. The creation of space and time from nothing is literally correct. Space and time were created from no thing. Spirit is no thing. No thing created space and time.

 

[ding]

Me no speak Mumbo-Jumbo.

Do you have Asperger's or something like that? Try a gofundme page so you can buy a clue.

You played an instrumental role in helping me develop this, Tax. Thank you.

Now you will help me in planting the seeds. I can't do this without you.

I wouldn't be so quick to take credit for what you find at any of the fundamentalist creation ministries.

It is people like you who forced me to examine space and time who deserve the credit, Hollie.

But please do search those websites and prove that is where I have gotten these words from.

 

[Hollie]

The rules of logic don’t resolve to magic and supernaturalism.

It’s only magic to you because being a thing you can’t relate to a no thing.
So you call it magic when in reality it is like consciousness that exists independent from a material body. Of course you can’t relate to it and act the way you do. You are threatened by what you don’t understand.

I just find it concerning that you are detached from reality.
Your religion of spirit realms is entirely a function of belief in magic. I would suggest we can alternately define magic as submitting to fear and superstition.

How really convenient that your spirit realms are excempt from any examination by rational science.

Creationist dogma will never increase our understanding or knowledge of the physical world because knowledge is antithetical to the creationist. What is not already written in the bible is relegated to the unknowable hand of God moving in his creation. Fear and superstition has caused the Genesis story to be repeated for three thousand years and we know no more of existence now than when that tale was first written by the hand of man. In the last two hundred years of taking a scientific approach to studying the natural world, we have learned most of what we know about how living things work.

I just find it concerning that you are detached from reality.

You believe I am detached from reality because I believe the heart of this debate comes down to the material world being created by spirit versus everything proceeding from the material?

Or is it that you believe I am detached from reality because I believe we should make an objective analysis of whether the material world was created by spirit versus everything proceeding from the material?

Or is it that you believe I am detached from reality because we should stop reading Genesis like it is a fairy tale, but rather what it is which is how important information was passed down in ancient times? Through allegorical accounts of historical events which had important wisdoms interspersed with these accounts. That they chose to do it this way to make the events and lessons easier to remember so that that knowledge could be passed down from one generation to the next.

Or is it that you believe I am detached from reality because I believe ancient man thought so highly of these accounts that they passed it down for thousands of years.

Prey tell... please tell me which part of these beliefs are delusional. I would really appreciate hearing the opinion of someone like you who is so obviously knowledgeable about these things and can make logical arguments for her beliefs and not rely upon unsubstantiated rhetoric.

Your religion of spirit realms is entirely a function of belief in magic. I would suggest we can alternately define magic as submitting to fear and superstition.

Actually, no, it isn't. My belief starts with the logical assumption that either spirit created the material world or everything proceeded from the material. There are no other logical options.

You call it magic because you cannot perceive anything beyond the material world. Yet we know the material world cannot exist forever without achieving thermal equilibrium. So the only logical answer to what created space and time is no thing. Spirit is no thing. The closest any of us can come to understanding something which is not material and exists outside of time and space is consciousness without a body. And when we examine the only evidence we can examine, which is creation itself, we find that a case can be made for the material world being created by spirit or consciousness without material form. Specifically, the laws of nature; physical, biological and moral. We know that the physical and biological laws predestined being that know and create would eventually arise. We know that the physical laws tell us that space and time was created by no thing. And we know from the moral laws that there is an expectation for a universal truth based upon the concept of fairness.

How really convenient that your spirit realms are excempt from any examination by rational science.

I just explained to you how science can be used to study the creation of space and time and what that study tells us. You are the one who has no science to support your position. Please share with me your science, Hollie. I really want to know what you know.

Creationist dogma will never increase our understanding or knowledge of the physical world because knowledge is antithetical to the creationist. What is not already written in the bible is relegated to the unknowable hand of God moving in his creation. Fear and superstition has caused the Genesis story to be repeated for three thousand years and we know no more of existence now than when that tale was first written by the hand of man. In the last two hundred years of taking a scientific approach to studying the natural world, we have learned most of what we know about how living things work.

I have not come within 100 miles of creationist dogma, Hollie. I am making a logical argument for spirit creating the material world. Certainly not an argument built of fairy tales that's for sure. So going back to the two possibilities; spirit creating the material world versus everything proceeding from the material, the key distinction is no thing versus thing. So if we believe as you do that everything is just an accidental coincidence of the properties of matter, the logical conclusion is that matter and energy are just doing what matter and energy do which makes sense. The problem you have is that for matter and energy to do what matter and energy do, there has to be rules in place for matter and energy to obey. The formation of space and time followed rules. Specifically the law of conservation and quantum mechanics. These laws existed before space and time and defined the potential of everything which was possible. These laws are no thing. So we literally have an example of no thing existing before the material world. The creation of space and time from nothing is literally correct. Space and time were created from no thing. Spirit is no thing. No thing created space and time.

That's really just boilerplate creationist dogma.

Tell us more about your alleged spirit realms. Other than creationist claims that amount to ".... because I say so" to support the veracity of the spirit worlds, what separates your spirit realms from competing claims to spirit realms?

No. It is a thoughtful examination of the two boundary conditions. If you assume that everything which has unfolded is just an accidental coincidence of the properties of matter, the logical conclusion is that matter and energy are just doing what matter and energy do which makes sense. The problem is that for matter and energy to do what matter and energy do, there has to be rules in place for matter and energy to obey. The formation of space and time followed rules. Specifically the law of conservation and quantum mechanics. These laws existed before space and time and defined the potential of everything which was possible. These laws are no thing. So we literally have an example of no thing existing before the material world. The creation of space and time from nothing is literally correct. Space and time were created from no thing. Spirit is no thing. No thing created space and time.

Cutting and pasting the same material you found at a creation ministry does nothing to support your case for spirit realms.

 

[Hollie]

Me no speak Mumbo-Jumbo.

Do you have Asperger's or something like that? Try a gofundme page so you can buy a clue.

You played an instrumental role in helping me develop this, Tax. Thank you.

Now you will help me in planting the seeds. I can't do this without you.

I wouldn't be so quick to take credit for what you find at any of the fundamentalist creation ministries.

It is people like you who forced me to examine space and time who deserve the credit, Hollie.

But please do search those websites and prove that is where I have gotten these words from.

Yes, I forced you. You will submit.