DOes christianity promote individualism?

[ihopehefails]

I wonder if christianity promotes individualism because it basically says that your spiritual existence is wrapped up with one man which means that society around you doesn't matter that much to you.

This seems to be opposite from what the hegallians believed that your spirit existed within the world which is what they termed as pantheism. This made you dependent on others for you social and spiritual existence while christianity didn't require that. It separated you from the world which made you independent of everything around it.

 

[Cecilie1200]

I wonder if christianity promotes individualism because it basically says that your spiritual existence is wrapped up with one man which means that society around you doesn't matter that much to you.

This seems to be opposite from what the hegallians believed that your spirit existed within the world which is what they termed as pantheism. This made you dependent on others for you social and spiritual existence while christianity didn't require that. It separated you from the world which made you independent of everything around it.

While it is true that Christianity teaches that your salvation or damnation is entirely in your own hands, and further teaches an individual and personal relationship with God, it is not true that society, aka other people, don't matter that much. No one can send your soul to Heaven or Hell except you, but you do still have responsibilities toward other people. More to the point, if you truly love God as you should, you will also love other people as well.

 

[JW Frogen]

This is a very interesting question.

Dying on a cross is a very lonely place to be. Not a lot of hugs and kisses up there.

Yet we are all going to die on some sort of cross, every last one of us.

Hopefully there will be some hugs and kisses when you do.

As for me, I will die like Captain Kirk, telling some bald replacement it was fun as I swig on one last drop of the Nexus.

Oh, and fuck you Guinan!

 

[Luissa]

nope

 

[Smartt33]

I wonder if christianity promotes individualism because it basically says that your spiritual existence is wrapped up with one man which means that society around you doesn't matter that much to you.

This seems to be opposite from what the hegallians believed that your spirit existed within the world which is what they termed as pantheism. This made you dependent on others for you social and spiritual existence while christianity didn't require that. It separated you from the world which made you independent of everything around it.

I believe you need to read the Genesis account of Adam and Eve. There are social principles there that basically refute the idea that individualism is the Christian way. Certainly that is not even close to what Christians believe.

 

[midcan5]

nope

I second that. Humans cannot exist outside of society, how we act there is the critical piece.

I picked up a book I hadn't looked at in a while and thought, it should be required reading for all - even when or if you disagree with pieces of it.

[ame=http://www.amazon.com/Whys-Philosophical-Scrivener-Martin-Gardner/dp/0312206828/ref=sr_1_12?ie=UTF8]Amazon.com: The Whys of a Philosophical Scrivener (9780312206826): Martin Gardner: Books[/ame]

See pieces 'why I am not [something]?

The Whys of a Philosophical Scrivener - Google Books

 

[ihopehefails]

I wonder if christianity promotes individualism because it basically says that your spiritual existence is wrapped up with one man which means that society around you doesn't matter that much to you.

This seems to be opposite from what the hegallians believed that your spirit existed within the world which is what they termed as pantheism. This made you dependent on others for you social and spiritual existence while christianity didn't require that. It separated you from the world which made you independent of everything around it.

While it is true that Christianity teaches that your salvation or damnation is entirely in your own hands, and further teaches an individual and personal relationship with God, it is not true that society, aka other people, don't matter that much. No one can send your soul to Heaven or Hell except you, but you do still have responsibilities toward other people. More to the point, if you truly love God as you should, you will also love other people as well.

I think if you place your spirit, soul, or essence in the hands of another single person like Christ then you are taking what develops those aspects of your personality away from others and towards that thing call Christ. This was actually the debate between many Jacobians and Hegallians in Europe around 1800. Was it better to place your spiritual existence within a divine being that is not of this world or should it be shared equally with others in society.

I've been thinking about his quite a lot and think that it is better for mankind to be individualistic. It seems to lead to a better result and people being much happier but that is just my opinion. I think if someone wants to be a panthiestic thinker then so be it but do we all have to think that way?

 

[Cecilie1200]

I wonder if christianity promotes individualism because it basically says that your spiritual existence is wrapped up with one man which means that society around you doesn't matter that much to you.

This seems to be opposite from what the hegallians believed that your spirit existed within the world which is what they termed as pantheism. This made you dependent on others for you social and spiritual existence while christianity didn't require that. It separated you from the world which made you independent of everything around it.

I believe you need to read the Genesis account of Adam and Eve. There are social principles there that basically refute the idea that individualism is the Christian way. Certainly that is not even close to what Christians believe.

Would you care to expound on that?

 

[Cecilie1200]

I wonder if christianity promotes individualism because it basically says that your spiritual existence is wrapped up with one man which means that society around you doesn't matter that much to you.

This seems to be opposite from what the hegallians believed that your spirit existed within the world which is what they termed as pantheism. This made you dependent on others for you social and spiritual existence while christianity didn't require that. It separated you from the world which made you independent of everything around it.

While it is true that Christianity teaches that your salvation or damnation is entirely in your own hands, and further teaches an individual and personal relationship with God, it is not true that society, aka other people, don't matter that much. No one can send your soul to Heaven or Hell except you, but you do still have responsibilities toward other people. More to the point, if you truly love God as you should, you will also love other people as well.

I think if you place your spirit, soul, or essence in the hands of another single person like Christ then you are taking what develops those aspects of your personality away from others and towards that thing call Christ. This was actually the debate between many Jacobians and Hegallians in Europe around 1800. Was it better to place your spiritual existence within a divine being that is not of this world or should it be shared equally with others in society.

I've been thinking about his quite a lot and think that it is better for mankind to be individualistic. It seems to lead to a better result and people being much happier but that is just my opinion. I think if someone wants to be a panthiestic thinker then so be it but do we all have to think that way?

I'm not sure I even understand the question they were debating from your explanation of it.

 

[ihopehefails]

While it is true that Christianity teaches that your salvation or damnation is entirely in your own hands, and further teaches an individual and personal relationship with God, it is not true that society, aka other people, don't matter that much. No one can send your soul to Heaven or Hell except you, but you do still have responsibilities toward other people. More to the point, if you truly love God as you should, you will also love other people as well.

I think if you place your spirit, soul, or essence in the hands of another single person like Christ then you are taking what develops those aspects of your personality away from others and towards that thing call Christ. This was actually the debate between many Jacobians and Hegallians in Europe around 1800. Was it better to place your spiritual existence within a divine being that is not of this world or should it be shared equally with others in society.

I've been thinking about his quite a lot and think that it is better for mankind to be individualistic. It seems to lead to a better result and people being much happier but that is just my opinion. I think if someone wants to be a panthiestic thinker then so be it but do we all have to think that way?

I'm not sure I even understand the question they were debating from your explanation of it.

Think of your essence or what identifies you as you. Part of your essence is superficial things like your outward appearance to the world but a large part of yourself is your soul. This is the much deeper part of you. If you believe that this spirit is defined by the reflection of one being such as God rather than the reflection of the collective conscience of man then you do not define the most basic part of yourself by the reflection of others but by your own internal being. Your soul becomes a self-reflection but a pantheistic way of thinking of this becomes a reflection with others around you. One is outward while the other is inward.

 

[☭proletarian☭]

The apostles/early Christians lived as a roaming band of socialists, with everything being owned communally. Jesus said that to be perfect, you were to sell everything you owned, carry no money, and basically reject material wealth, perusing instead a life like Jesus', placing others before the self.

 

[uptownlivin90]

"Christianity" promotes whatever "christians" want it to at any given time. What Yeshua himself promotes is a whole different story. Man was created in Yah's image, with a sovereign will of his own, I think this is an absolutely crucial aspect of the scriptures that we cannot forget when discussing this. We are according to the word spirit, body, and soul (the spirit and the body make us a "living soul"). God made us with personalities, differences, and special gifts and abilities, individually, which was essential in his ability to understand and know us as his creation and our ability both to deny him and his grace and choose evil rather then his grace and atonement.

I think where we get things wrong is that we assume that Yah created us as individuals simply to benefit us as individuals, which is simply not true. Our being created as individuals with difference benefits not only us but others around us, society as a whole, and Yah and his relationship with his creation. We are as followers of God to use our difference and individual will to benefit mankind as a whole.

The first example of this was the story regarding Yah's creation of the woman (Eve). She was created different then Adam in order to benefit him as a man. This is the real significance of the Old Testament story of the creation of man and really why there are two creation stories of man. Within the more detailed account involving adam and eve we learn of man's freewill, his true relationship with Yah, his ability to make decisions, to rule, and his need for social interaction which is really the product of his own individuality.

Because we are individuals, I personally believe that there are voids within us that relationships with others help fill (when they are good relationships). Another place we see this is the formation of and hierarchy of the Church in Ephesians 4 where Yah establishes the offices of Apostle, Prophet, Evangelist, Teacher, Pastor, etc. The scriptures tell us that the various offices and gifts within the church are given for "the perfecting of the saints". Our differences perfect us. Our individual characteristics are intended to bring us together. different colors, cultures, ideas, adn ideologies are supposed to complement us.

We are created individuals and individuality in the long run benefits society. We are not bees in a hive. We are human beings with intelligent choice and decision making skills.

 

[uptownlivin90]

The apostles/early Christians lived as a roaming band of socialists, with everything being owned communally. Jesus said that to be perfect, you were to sell everything you owned, carry no money, and basically reject material wealth, perusing instead a life like Jesus', placing others before the self.

Some did. Some did not. The Apostolic Church was far less a religious organization then a Jewish splinter group. Those that were travelers where generally evangelists/apostles or were those who were driven from their homes due to persecution. They shared and lived communally because that's how you survive when your constantly on the run moving from place to place because you are being persecuted.

Those that were not being chased down and killed generally kept the religious practices of their Jewish counterparts but believed in the teachings of Yeshua.

As for the verses you specifically reference in which Yeshua told the young man to "persue a life like him" the language Yeshua uses suggests 1.) that the command was specifically for the command he made was specifically for the individual he was speaking to at the time who asked him what HE must do to recieve salvation, 2.) was far more figurative then anything.

 

[☭proletarian☭]

figurative?

16And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life? 17And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.
18He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness,
19Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
20The young man saith unto him, All these things have I kept from my youth up: what lack I yet?
21Jesus said unto him, If thou wilt be perfect, go and sell that thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come and follow me.

Following the other commandments wasn't to be 'perfect' (to be 'like Christ', which is what a Christian is to strive to be).


And it's in Acts, if I recall, where it states that the early followers, including the original disciples, lived in a communist manner, with communal property. Hardly a 'splinter group' of any sort beyond the extinct that Christianity itself was a splinter group.

Jesus taught his flock to reject material wealth, something that's lost on most neoxtians today.

 

[uptownlivin90]

figurative?

16And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life? 17And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.
18He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness,
19Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
20The young man saith unto him, All these things have I kept from my youth up: what lack I yet?
21Jesus said unto him, If thou wilt be perfect, go and sell that thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come and follow me.

Following the other commandments wasn't to be 'perfect' (to be 'like Christ', which is what a Christian is to strive to be).


And it's in Acts, if I recall, where it states that the early followers, including the original disciples, lived in a communist manner, with communal property. Hardly a 'splinter group' of any sort beyond the extinct that Christianity itself was a splinter group.

Jesus taught his flock to reject material wealth, something that's lost on most neoxtians today.

The full text of that teaching of Yeshua:

16 And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?
17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, ELOHIYM: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.
18 He saith unto him, Which? YAHSHUA said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness,
19 Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
20 The young man saith unto him, All these things have I kept from my youth up: what lack I yet?
21 YAHSHUA said unto him, If thou wilt be perfect, go and sell that thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come and follow me.
22 But when the young man heard that saying, he went away sorrowful: for he had great possessions.
23 Then said YAHSHUA unto his disciples, Verily I say unto you, That a rich man shall hardly enter into the kingdom of heaven.
24 And again I say unto you, It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of EL.
25 When his disciples heard it, they were exceedingly amazed, saying, Who then can be saved?
26 But YAHSHUA beheld them, and said unto them, With men this is impossible; but with ELOHIYM all things are possible.
27 Then answered Peter and said unto him, Behold, we have forsaken all, and followed thee; what shall we have therefore?
28 And YAHSHUA said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.
29 And every one that hath forsaken houses, or brethren, or sisters, or father, or mother, or wife, or children, or lands, for my name's sake, shall receive an hundredfold, and shall inherit everlasting life.
30 But many that are first shall be last; and the last shall be first.

He makes his point very clear, in this passage and it's not that salvation comes from giving up things and living in a communal separatist fashion. Notice what took place in the passage. Yeshua was asked by a man what he had to do to obtain eternal life. The simply answer was given:

"And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, ELOHIYM: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments."

In other words there is not one who is sinless but the almighty but the law was put in place to save us and we recieve eternal life by keeping the commandments of Yah (which is a whole other matter entirely). The man was boasting and represents the pharisees at the time who believed their strict adherence to the law covered their sins against God's temple and religious perversions. He said, what haven't I done that fulfills the Law? Yeshua said if you want to be perfect give up everything and come follow me. He was calling the man not to eternal life but to discipleship, simply to make a point.

We know this because in the later verse the disciples make a point that THEY gave up everything and Yeshua told them that they would sit on twelve thrones and judge the twelve tribes of Y'Israel. Yeshua makes it clear what he means in regards to "rich people" and slavation in verse 29:

"And every one that hath forsaken houses, or brethren, or sisters, or father, or mother, or wife, or children, or lands, for my name's sake, shall receive an hundredfold, and shall inherit everlasting life."

Those who have ever lost anything (including their lives) for Yeshua's name sake shall be rewarded. We are told rather then to hold on to and love riches to love Yah, and submit to his will and follow his law even if it means loosing what and who we love. You have to take the verse within the whole context of the passage when it comes to scripture. Yeshua loved to say things that could be interpreted three different ways and then interpret it himself, which exactly what we see him do here in the passage.

The obvious interpretation can't be that the way to salvation is giving up things and living like a nomad. Yeshua makes it very clear how to be saved in verse 17, then again I won't go there.

 

[editec]

I wonder if christianity promotes individualism because it basically says that your spiritual existence is wrapped up with one man which means that society around you doesn't matter that much to you.

This seems to be opposite from what the hegallians believed that your spirit existed within the world which is what they termed as pantheism. This made you dependent on others for you social and spiritual existence while christianity didn't require that. It separated you from the world which made you independent of everything around it.

AS though one can generalize about Christendom?

Dude, there's a billion Christians, and thousands of Christian sects.

 

[Cecilie1200]

The apostles/early Christians lived as a roaming band of socialists, with everything being owned communally. Jesus said that to be perfect, you were to sell everything you owned, carry no money, and basically reject material wealth, perusing instead a life like Jesus', placing others before the self.

If I recall correctly, He actually said that to one guy, not necessarily as a universal mandate to everyone. That particular guy was very hung up on material things, such that they were more important to him than following Christ, as evidenced by the way that he chose them in the end. It would be utterly ridiculous to think that Christ expected EVERYONE to live as itinerant missionaries, insofar as nothing would ever get accomplished, including the basics of survival like feeding and clothing one's family.

 

[ihopehefails]

"Christianity" promotes whatever "christians" want it to at any given time. What Yeshua himself promotes is a whole different story. Man was created in Yah's image, with a sovereign will of his own, I think this is an absolutely crucial aspect of the scriptures that we cannot forget when discussing this. We are according to the word spirit, body, and soul (the spirit and the body make us a "living soul"). God made us with personalities, differences, and special gifts and abilities, individually, which was essential in his ability to understand and know us as his creation and our ability both to deny him and his grace and choose evil rather then his grace and atonement.

I think where we get things wrong is that we assume that Yah created us as individuals simply to benefit us as individuals, which is simply not true. Our being created as individuals with difference benefits not only us but others around us, society as a whole, and Yah and his relationship with his creation. We are as followers of God to use our difference and individual will to benefit mankind as a whole.

The first example of this was the story regarding Yah's creation of the woman (Eve). She was created different then Adam in order to benefit him as a man. This is the real significance of the Old Testament story of the creation of man and really why there are two creation stories of man. Within the more detailed account involving adam and eve we learn of man's freewill, his true relationship with Yah, his ability to make decisions, to rule, and his need for social interaction which is really the product of his own individuality.

Because we are individuals, I personally believe that there are voids within us that relationships with others help fill (when they are good relationships). Another place we see this is the formation of and hierarchy of the Church in Ephesians 4 where Yah establishes the offices of Apostle, Prophet, Evangelist, Teacher, Pastor, etc. The scriptures tell us that the various offices and gifts within the church are given for "the perfecting of the saints". Our differences perfect us. Our individual characteristics are intended to bring us together. different colors, cultures, ideas, adn ideologies are supposed to complement us.

We are created individuals and individuality in the long run benefits society. We are not bees in a hive. We are human beings with intelligent choice and decision making skills.

I actually did not think of this and it was not thought of by other christians. It was thought of by early Hegals who debated if christianity was a positive force for society. They thought it was to individualistic because your 'spirit' was a reflection of a single deity of either Jesus or God. They believed in pantheism where your spirit was a part of the greater community of man or a part of the collective.

Not a single christian ever thought of this.

 

[ihopehefails]

The apostles/early Christians lived as a roaming band of socialists, with everything being owned communally. Jesus said that to be perfect, you were to sell everything you owned, carry no money, and basically reject material wealth, perusing instead a life like Jesus', placing others before the self.

If I recall correctly, He actually said that to one guy, not necessarily as a universal mandate to everyone. That particular guy was very hung up on material things, such that they were more important to him than following Christ, as evidenced by the way that he chose them in the end. It would be utterly ridiculous to think that Christ expected EVERYONE to live as itinerant missionaries, insofar as nothing would ever get accomplished, including the basics of survival like feeding and clothing one's family.

Even if Jesus said "go commie" does that mean the state can force us to "be commie" since we live in a free society?

With respect to God we may not have a choice but with respect to others and the state we do since we can choose our own non-christian religion that tells us to spit, screw hookers, and hog all the money that we can get our hands on.

Personally I like "what is the profit of man if he were to gain the entire world yet lose his mortal soul". It makes you realize that goodness is more important than wealth.

I'm going to find a hooker...

 

[Cecilie1200]

The apostles/early Christians lived as a roaming band of socialists, with everything being owned communally. Jesus said that to be perfect, you were to sell everything you owned, carry no money, and basically reject material wealth, perusing instead a life like Jesus', placing others before the self.

If I recall correctly, He actually said that to one guy, not necessarily as a universal mandate to everyone. That particular guy was very hung up on material things, such that they were more important to him than following Christ, as evidenced by the way that he chose them in the end. It would be utterly ridiculous to think that Christ expected EVERYONE to live as itinerant missionaries, insofar as nothing would ever get accomplished, including the basics of survival like feeding and clothing one's family.

Even if Jesus said "go commie" does that mean the state can force us to "be commie" since we live in a free society?

With respect to God we may not have a choice but with respect to others and the state we do since we can choose our own non-christian religion that tells us to spit, screw hookers, and hog all the money that we can get our hands on.

Personally I like "what is the profit of man if he were to gain the entire world yet lose his mortal soul". It makes you realize that goodness is more important than wealth.

I'm going to find a hooker...

Even with respect to God, we have a choice, because God did not give us free will only to force us to accept Him and His will. And if God refrains from forcing us to be good and righteous, how can He possibly want other men to force it upon us, especially when they can only force on us their own small, flawed, human opinion of what is righteous?