Do you support unions?

[Ray From Cleveland]

The fact is the economy does the best when workers are able to bounce from job to job.

The economy does best when we have lower inflation and lower fuel prices. But this labor shortage is part of the reason we have high inflation today.

 

[mak2]

The economy does best when we have lower inflation and lower fuel prices. But this labor shortage is part of the reason we have high inflation today.

So open the borders.

 

[Ray From Cleveland]

So what is the answer? Have people work for lower wages so we can compete with china?

For the American worker it's get training or into a field of work in demand. The days of turning nuts onto bolts for 50K a year are long over. If you want to be middle-class today, you have to learn how to do things, not just apply for a floor sweeping job and expect some union to force them to pay you big bucks for it.

 

[Ropey]

Do you support unions?

In the '60's. Yes.

Today, I need to look at which union because many of them are no longer for the people.

 

[jc456]

They froze us out with slave labor, which hurt profit. I think it might be you who doesn't understand why our manufacturing was off shored. It was not regulations, it was that Americans would not work for 2 bucks and hour. China kids would.

You didn’t read my previous posts. Be careful, don’t know you. Tarrifs would equal that out. It’s already happening. Chips will now be manufactured here again

 

[Ray From Cleveland]

So open the borders.

Not the answer. We've had open borders over two years now. The answer is to drastically cut our social programs for able bodied people which would give them no choice but to get back out in the workforce. As long as welfare pays near or more than working, of course people won't work.

Joe Biden, welfare king

Biden’s record of success growing the economy is at best questionable. His record of exploding the welfare rolls is undeniable.

thehill.com

 

[mak2]

You didn’t read my previous posts. Be careful, don’t know you. Tarrifs would equal that out. It’s already happening. Chips will now be manufactured here again

Sorry, I am watching basketball. This game is not as good as the last one, but there is plenty of time. I will pay more attention.

 

[jc456]

Sorry, I am watching basketball. This game is not as good as the last one, but there is plenty of time. I will pay more attention.

Great game game 1! Butler the man

 

[jc456]

Great game game 1! Butler the man

BTW, SD State was down 14

 

[Markle]

The libertarian 'individual responsibility' concept does not have to conflict with the concept that people in their employment have a reasonable expectation to not be exploited, or forced to be put into a position where they only way they can get a pay raise is to quit. In my view, your attitude stems from a neoliberal/libertarian pro-corporation exploitation policy point of view which, in a civilized society, does not belong if it doesn't, at the minimum, factor in the aforementioned concept. Corporations often get sweetheart arrangements form the government, corporate welfare and such, which prompted Noam Chomsky's famous line, 'Socialism for corporations, rugged individualism for everyone else".

Why should anyone be paid just because they exist?

Noam Chomsky is correct. And who has made that change?

 

[Markle]

They froze us out with slave labor, which hurt profit. I think it might be you who doesn't understand why our manufacturing was off shored. It was not regulations, it was that Americans would not work for 2 bucks and hour. China kids would.

A combination of both wages and regulations.

 

[Rumpole]

Unfortunately for you we are not a Communist country yet.

Non sequitur

The government doesn't have the power (nor should) of forcing employers to stay where they are at. Might want to try Cuba or someplace like that.

Okay, but they can create incentives.

No, unions do not determine value of any employee. What determines your worth is what your employer can pay another to do the same job and same quality of work as you do. If you quit a job paying $20.00 an hour because you did not get a raise, and your employer replaces you for another at the same rate of pay, that's all you were worth in the free market. If he has to pay more, you were correct, you were underpaid. If he can pay less, you were being overpaid.

Well, I'll toss in my three cents:

An employee's worth to a company is determined by a bunch of different things. Their skills, experience, education, and how well they do their job all come into play. Basically, the more valuable an employee is to a company, the more they're worth.

Whether there are a lot of qualified workers available or not can also affect an employee's worth. If there's a high demand for workers in a particular field but not a lot of people with the right skills, companies will have to offer better wages and benefits to get and keep employees. If there are a ton of people who are qualified for a job, though, then companies might not have to pay as much.

Another thing that can affect an employee's worth is bargaining power. If you're in a non-union job, your employer will usually have more power than you as an individual, so they might not pay you as much or give you as many benefits. But in a union job, the union can help make sure everyone gets treated fairly and gets good pay and benefits.

So, there are a lot of things that can determine how much an employee is worth to a company. It's not just about how good you are at your job, but also about the job market and your bargaining power. And in a union job, everyone can work together to make sure everyone gets treated fairly.

Again, what unions have done is force employers to overpay employees, ergo they could easily find non-union workers for the same money. That's what helped inflate us out of the world market along with high taxation and expensive regulations. That's why China is the main supplier of most of our goods.

Your contention that unions have caused employers to overpay workers and contributed to the decline of US manufacturing is overly simplistic and ignores many other factors at play.

For one, it's not fair to blame unions alone for the decline of US manufacturing and the rise of China. There are many factors involved in these complex issues, including automation, outsourcing, and trade policies. To say that unions are solely responsible oversimplifies the situation.

It's also important to recognize the positive things that unions can do for workers and workplaces. They can negotiate for better wages, benefits, and working conditions, which can help motivate workers and make them more productive. Unions also give workers a collective voice to express their concerns to management, which can lead to better communication and a healthier work environment.

The idea that employers are forced to overpay union workers is also not entirely accurate. Unions negotiate based on what they believe is fair compensation for the work being done. If non-union workers are willing to work for less, it may be because they don't have the bargaining power that unions provide.

In summary, while unions may contribute to higher wages and benefits for their members, they are not solely responsible for the decline of US manufacturing or the rise of China. It's important to consider all the factors at play and recognize the positive benefits that unions can provide for workers and workplaces.

 

[Rumpole]

Why should anyone be paid just because they exist?

Noam Chomsky is correct. And who has made that change?

I ignore graphical/cartoonish memes if most or all of your rebuttal is based on them, so, use your words, please, with substantiation, if possible, or a strong path of reasoning/logic. I don't like even text based memes because they are not quotable, unless one does a lot of retyping.

Your words, please.

 

[Markle]

So, there are a lot of things that can determine how much an employee is worth to a company. It's not just about how good you are at your job, but also about the job market and your bargaining power. And in a union job, everyone can work together to make sure everyone gets treated fairly.

With a union no one is treated "fairly" everyone is treated the same regardless of the job they do and gets raises based on longevity.

 

[Markle]

I ignore graphical/cartoonish memes if most or all of your rebuttal is based on them, so, use your words, please, with substantiation, if possible, or a strong path of reasoning/logic. I don't like even text based memes because they are not quotable, unless one does a lot of retyping.

Your words, please.

Of course, you do. They most often drive home a point that you cannot refute without looking foolish.

 

[Rumpole]

Yes, democracy. Sharing power. Private or public. If corporations (large companies or groups) were chartered that way to begin with, unions would obviously just be superfluous nuisances. But that's remote from the reality in this country. Profit for the biggest shareholders remains the end and be all, despite most being billionaires and Wall Street speculators who know nothing about day to day operations and couldn't care less. Unions shall remain their only check so long as this sick, profit over people culture persists.

I think what needs to be changed is the dominant principle that a corporation's first priority is to make as much profit for shareholders as possible. That should still be an objective, but I think the priority totem pole should be:

1. Preservation of American Jobs
2. Align policy goals with long term strategies
3. Avoid conglomeration (and, I believe under anti-trust laws they should be illegal)
4. Make as much profit for shareholders as possible.
5. Ceo and exec staff cannot be paid more than 50:1 over the lowest salaried or wage earners in the company.

I'd also make bot driven trades illegal. All trades must be human inputted trades.

Now, of course, these ideas are tentative, subject to change of mind faced with consequences I haven't thought of. I'm open to ideas on this subject, to shrink the gap between top and bottom rungs of the economic ladder.

 

[task0778]

With a union no one is treated "fairly" everyone is treated the same regardless of the job they do and gets raises based on longevity.

I would suggest that unions are run by people who have their own biases and favorites, and as a result not everyone is treated the same. As does management too, although the degree of misconduct varies from union to union and company to company. One might opine that unions in general are less inclined to unfair treatment, but there is no data that I am aware of that supports that contention. IOW, unions are not the utopia that the Left would have us believe. AND - IMHO a union's top priority is not their workers well-being but their own.

 

[Ray From Cleveland]

Non sequitur

Okay, but they can create incentives.

Well, I'll toss in my three cents:

An employee's worth to a company is determined by a bunch of different things. Their skills, experience, education, and how well they do their job all come into play. Basically, the more valuable an employee is to a company, the more they're worth.

Whether there are a lot of qualified workers available or not can also affect an employee's worth. If there's a high demand for workers in a particular field but not a lot of people with the right skills, companies will have to offer better wages and benefits to get and keep employees. If there are a ton of people who are qualified for a job, though, then companies might not have to pay as much.

Another thing that can affect an employee's worth is bargaining power. If you're in a non-union job, your employer will usually have more power than you as an individual, so they might not pay you as much or give you as many benefits. But in a union job, the union can help make sure everyone gets treated fairly and gets good pay and benefits.

So, there are a lot of things that can determine how much an employee is worth to a company. It's not just about how good you are at your job, but also about the job market and your bargaining power. And in a union job, everyone can work together to make sure everyone gets treated fairly.

Your contention that unions have caused employers to overpay workers and contributed to the decline of US manufacturing is overly simplistic and ignores many other factors at play.

For one, it's not fair to blame unions alone for the decline of US manufacturing and the rise of China. There are many factors involved in these complex issues, including automation, outsourcing, and trade policies. To say that unions are solely responsible oversimplifies the situation.

It's also important to recognize the positive things that unions can do for workers and workplaces. They can negotiate for better wages, benefits, and working conditions, which can help motivate workers and make them more productive. Unions also give workers a collective voice to express their concerns to management, which can lead to better communication and a healthier work environment.

The idea that employers are forced to overpay union workers is also not entirely accurate. Unions negotiate based on what they believe is fair compensation for the work being done. If non-union workers are willing to work for less, it may be because they don't have the bargaining power that unions provide.

In summary, while unions may contribute to higher wages and benefits for their members, they are not solely responsible for the decline of US manufacturing or the rise of China. It's important to consider all the factors at play and recognize the positive benefits that unions can provide for workers and workplaces.

For one, please quit breaking up my posts. If I can discuss subjects without doing it, I'm sure you can figure it out as well.

As for an employees worth, I was talking about the market in general and not one specific company. Yes, a specific company does determine what an employee is worth and it should be their decision only. Going back to my earlier example, if I'm paying $20.00 an hour for a person to do a job, that's just what I'm paying because if you don't like the pay and decide to leave, I can find somebody else for the same money. Why should I pay you more money if I can find somebody else to do the job for what I'm paying? So yes, unions force companies to overpay workers as far as market value goes.

You must be scanning my replies instead of actually reading them. I said unions were a contributing factor of chasing jobs out of the country, and I also said that taxation and expensive government regulations come into play as well. As I stated earlier, one of our customers was a company that made crates. I used to deliver those crates to companies that were moving out of the area. None of them really wanted to leave, but it was the only way for them to get away from the union. It shouldn't have to come down to that. Not only did those union people lose their jobs because of the union, but we lost customers as well. It's a devastating domino effect.

Productive workers don't need a union. They let their performance speak for itself. If I do better work than my coworker, yes, I want to earn better money. Why should he/she get the same money I make and doing a fraction of the work? There is nothing fair about that. It's not fair to me and it's not fair to my employer. That's why I always said if I went to a new company for the first time, I could tell you if they were union or not within the first ten minutes of being there without talking to one employee. All you have to do in a union is be breathing and moving.

 

[Grumblenuts]

there is no data that I am aware of that supports that contention. IOW, unions are not the utopia that the Left would have us believe.

Actually, no data supports your contention that "the Left" considers unions utopian. Again, to the contrary and sadly, here unions remain the only practical, legal weapon available to workers still fighting Milton Friedman-ish employers. We are born social animals with social responsibilities. We were never born wage slaves nor cannon fodder for wealthy "shareholders" to replace, press against grindstones, or dispose of "at will."

 

[Ray From Cleveland]

Actually, no data supports your contention that "the Left" considers unions utopian. Again, to the contrary and sadly, here unions remain the only practical, legal weapon available to workers still fighting Milton Friedman-ish employers. We are born social animals with social responsibilities. We were never born wage slaves nor cannon fodder for wealthy "shareholders" to replace, press against grindstones, or dispose of "at will."

If that's the way you feel then start your own business. You can run it anyway you like. Buy some lawn equipment and start your own landscape business. Learn HVAC, plumbing, remodeling and work for yourself. Nobody forces you to work for anybody else. Nobody forces you to work for a place you don't want to work for.

A slave is a person forced to work for another with no choice of their own. We all have choices in life. But whether you choose to work for yourself or somebody else, you will always be a wage slave because we all need money to live on.