Do you have a problem with Tennessee's "curbs [for] trans treatment and drag for children"?

[Curried Goats]

As I said, I'm libertarian, but libertarianism is for adults.

Libertarianism is for people who like to imagine themselves to be rational and logical but at the heart of their philosophy is the belief in a magically sky daddy that gifted them an inalienable right to property.

Maybe the age for adulthood should be set at 25, given that this is the scientific consensus for maturity as measured by brain development.

When scientists consider the prefrontal cortex fully developed and when society considers humans, adults, are not really the same thing.

An eight year old being encouraged to express their gender confusion by dressing as the opposite sex, a twelve year old being given hormones to prevent their body from going through the normal maturing process and a sixteen year old having her breasts removed, are not mature adults when these life-changing decisions are made for them.

Well two of them are and those two are administered by healthcare professionals.

Only the most predatory of adult would do something like that to a child and only the most amoral of adults would support such behavior, merely becuase the other side opposes it.

This isn't an argument based on science but your emotions so while it's certainly amusing it's not really relevant.

That's a brilliant argument if I had been arguing that teens are too impulsive for transgenderization. I haven't, so it is a straw man.

Then what are you arguing in terms of brain development and adolescent trans care?

I don't support allowing people under eighteen unfettered access to firearms.

Do you support allowing anyone under 25 access to firearms because that's when the science say the prefrontal cortex is fully developed.

For the same reason that I don't support people under eighteen being given hormones and surgeries to force them into the appearance that adults tell they they should have. They don't have the maturity for life-altering decisions.

Based on what science?

 

[HeyNorm]

Ah, bringing out all the falsehoods.


I assume you mean just castration and neo vagina creation? It's not illegal. Jazz Jennings was 17. There are examples in the academic literature of kids at 15.


From the BMJ, linked and posted earlier in this thread:



Blockers are only reversible in the sense that puberty will restart once they stop taking the blocker. However, there are permanent impacts, though. Bone density, penis size (see Jazz Jennings again) as just two examples.

So, if puberty blockers are used through puberty’s time, and it ends up that the male kid and the kids parents were wrong and end it, he just has to go through life with a micro dick.

Nothing to see here folks.

 

[Robz]

So, if puberty blockers are used through puberty’s time, and it ends up that the male kid and the kids parents were wrong and end it, he just has to go through life with a micro dick.

Nothing to see here folks.

It's worse. Yes, if they change their mind, they have a pre-pubertal dick the rest of their lives. If they dont change their mind, future surgeries are far more complicated (see Jazz Jennings' complications). Going from blockers to CSH can cause sterility or even inability to orga.sm.

But, they are finding that 100% of kids put on blockers are going to the next step, which is causing concerns for multiple experts that it's not really the 'pause button' it was originally described as and is instead solidifying their identity (at least temporarily). Could be due to neuroplasticity, lack of brain development that typically occurs during puberty and causes most to outgrow or something else.

 

[Curried Goats]

It's worse. Yes, if they change their mind, they have a pre-pubertal dick the rest of their lives. If they dont change their mind, future surgeries are far more complicated (see Jazz Jennings' complications).

But, they are finding that 100% of kids put on blockers are going to the next step, which is causing concerns for multiple experts that it's not really the 'pause button' it was originally described as and is instead solidifying their identity (at least temporarily). Could be due to neuroplasticity, lack of brain development that typically occurs during puberty and causes most to outgrow or something else.

Lack of brain development that typically occurs during puberty and causes most to outgrow or something else...

It's adorable when you folks try to pretend you're on the side of science.

 

[Robz]

Lack of brain development that typically occurs during puberty and causes most to outgrow or something else...

It's adorable when you folks try to pretend you're on the side of science.

Yes, brain development during and after puberty allows more complex thought processes. Which is just one of the reasons most kids will outgrow the ID if left alone.

The 'something else' would be things like not maturing and developing at the same time as their peers or items that have not yet been determined or that I am unaware of.

 

[Curried Goats]

Yes, brain development during and after puberty allows more complex thought processes.

Brain development, crucially that of the prefrontal cortex continues past puberty and isn't completed until the age of 25. There is no evidence that puberty blockers affect this development whatsoever.

Which is just one of the reasons most kids will outgrow the ID if left alone.

The studies that show most children outgrowing any gender confusion are referring to children who experience gender confusion before puberty.

The 'something else' would be things like not maturing and developing at the same time as their peers or items that have not yet been determined or that I am unaware of.

That 'something else's is just you talking out of your ass.

 

[Robz]

Brain development, crucially that of the prefrontal cortex continues past puberty and isn't completed until the age of 25. There is no evidence that puberty blockers affect this development whatsoever.

So, your claim is that 'not going through Puberty' doesn't impact the development that typically occurs during puberty. Fascinating.

The studies that show most children outgrowing any gender confusion are referring to children who experience gender confusion before puberty.

sure. They almost always outgrow the identity during puberty. Stop puberty, and that doesn't happen. That was the exact point. There aren't many studies on kids (it's a new cohort) that suddenly identify as trans at older ages. Littman did one, can't think of others at the moment.

That 'something else's is just you talking out of your ass.

Well, no. Items such as not going through Puberty with your peers, does have an impact. Sunk cost, embarrassment from having to change their mind to parents, friends etc after being so certain And arguing etc, have all been discussed in the literature.

 

[Curried Goats]

So, your claim is that not going through Puberty doesn't impact the development that typically occurs during puberty. Fascinating.

What I am is skeptical of your claim since you present it without evidence. I'm not even entirely sure what your argument is.

My argument is that brain development isn't complete until the age of 25 and that anyone arguing that trans teens shouldn't be allowed to make decisions regarding their health because of that should also be against anyone driving, voting, taking out loans, or handling a gun until 25 as well. That is if they're being intellectually consistent. As far as the science goes it does not say that at all. It's true the prefrontal cortex isn't fully developed until age 25 but that does not mean people younger than that are incapable or rational thought or understanding long term consequences.

Maturation of the adolescent brain.

By the age of 15 years, there is little difference in adolescents’ and adults’ decision-making patterns pertaining to hypothetical situations. Teens were found to be capable of reasoning about the possible harm or benefits of different courses of action; however, in the real world, teens still engaged in dangerous behaviors, despite understanding the risks involved.

sure. They almost always outgrow the identity during puberty. Stop puberty, and that doesn't happen. That was the exact point.

Then you're missing it because the outgrowing of gender confusion happens before puberty. If it persists into puberty, and is severe enough, that's when puberty blockers are assigned.

There aren't many studies on kids (it's a new cohort) that suddenly identify as trans at older ages.

You don't provide links so I don't know what this is in reference to, if anything.

Well, no. Items such as not going through Puberty with your peers, does have an impact. Sunk cost, embarrassment from having to change their mind to parent after arguing etc, have all been discussed in the literature.

First, people naturally experience puberty at different times. Secondly if your claim is that this is a big issue in the trans community, or even an issue at all, where is your evidence?

 

[Robz]

What I am is skeptical of your claim since you present it without evidence. I'm not even entirely sure what your argument is.

From the NHS Cass review:

A further concern is that adolescent sex hormone surges may trigger the opening of a critical period for experience-dependent rewiring of neural circuits underlying executive function6 (i.e. maturation of the part of the brain concerned with planning, decision making and judgement)..If this is the case, brain maturation may be temporarily or permanently disrupted by puberty blockers, which could have significant impact on the ability to make complex risk-laden decisions, as well as possible longer-term neuropsychological consequences. To date, there has been very limited research on the short-, medium- or longer-term impact of pubertyblockers on neurocognitive development.

It's well known that the ability to engage in more complex thoughts occurs during puberty. The belief is that hormones triggers the maturation. Not sure how this could be controversial to you. If puberty does not occur, this ability is delayed.

Cognitive Development in Adolescence

Cognitive development means the growth of a child's ability to think and reason. This growth happens differently from ages 6 to 12, and ages 12 to 18.

www.stanfordchildrens.org

Ages 12 to 18 is called adolescence. Kids and teens in this age group do more complex thinking. This type of thinking is also known as formal logical operations. This includes the ability to:

• Do abstract thinking. This means thinking about possibilities.
• Reason from known principles. This means forming own new ideas or questions.
• Consider many points of view. This means to compare or debate ideas or opinions.
• Think about the process of thinking. This means being aware of the act of thought processes.

Then you're missing it because the outgrowing of gender confusion happens before puberty. If it persists into puberty, and is severe enough, that's when puberty blockers are assigned.

That's not accurate. Often it happens during puberty. Most kids outgrow the identification by the time puberty is completed. From a 2016 study by Ristori and Steensma. Steensma is also on record indicating he expects desistance rates to be higher after puberty, when some studies stop measuring at early stages. (Note: desistance is distinct from detransition)- I'll assume you know this, so won't go in to detail.

Gender dysphoria in childhood - PubMed

Gender dysphoria (GD) in childhood is a complex phenomenon characterized by clinically significant distress due to the incongruence between assigned gender at birth and experienced gender. The clinical presentation of children who present with gender identity issues can be highly variable; the...

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

First, people naturally experience puberty at different times. Secondly if your claim is that this is a big issue in the trans community, or even an issue at all, where is your evidence?

You'd have to read the academic literature. You should start there. Honestly.

 

[Seymour Flops]

When scientists consider the prefrontal cortex fully developed and when society considers humans, adults, are not really the same thing.

Of course. Adulthood, or age of majority, our Concepts that far predate neurobiology.

Well two of them are and those two are administered by healthcare professionals.

Yes, so our abortions. So were the Nazi medical experiments. So were the Tuskegee experiments. So are absurdly large boob jobs, and multiple plastic surgeries that turn people into freaks.

Did you have a point?

This isn't an argument based on science but your emotions so while it's certainly amusing it's not really relevant.

Your argument that people who don't want children to be given hormones and surgery are bigots is based on pure childishness. It is relevant to the debate only in that it is all you have.

Your "scientific" study certainly blew up in your face, hence your going into hiding for several days.

Then what are you arguing in terms of brain development and adolescent trans care?

I'll make it as simple as I can: children =/= adults.

Do you support allowing anyone under 25 access to firearms because that's when the science say the prefrontal cortex is fully developed.

No, but I'd raise adulthood to 21 and then legalize freedom for adults.

Based on what science?

It's common sense. Sometimes science can Trump common sense, but in this case it doesn't.

Maybe it will someday. Keep hoping, I know the idea of young girls with penises is an obsession of yours.

 

[Seymour Flops]

My argument is that brain development isn't complete until the age of 25 and that anyone arguing that trans teens shouldn't be allowed to make decisions regarding their health because of that should also be against anyone driving, voting, taking out loans, or handling a gun until 25 as well.

There are legal minimum ages for all of those. The overwhelming majority of people who drive, vote, take out loans, or handle a gun, do not harm themselves or others by doing so, partly because we do not allow children to do those things.

100% of kids subjected to "gender affirming" hormones are harmed in that their physical development is delayed or altered, just like your child t-girl. One hundred percent of girls who have "top surgery" i.e. mastectomy for no medical reason, lose healthy parts of their body, and will never breastfeed their own children. One hundred percent of children whose healthy genitals are surgically altered to please adults lose biological function.

That is if they're being intellectually consistent. As far as the science goes it does not say that at all. It's true the prefrontal cortex isn't fully developed until age 25 but that does not mean people younger than that are incapable or rational thought or understanding long term consequences.

We can discuss the age at which it is appropriate to allow "gender affirming care," without a deep philosophical discussion of age of consent, age of getting a learners permit, age of voting and military service vs. age of drinking, or renting a car. If you really feel that those things are relevant to the discussion, please state whether your support of "gender affirming care" for children includes eleven year olds being given a drivers license so they can drive themselves to the treatment, and a concealed carry permit so they can defend themselves from anti-trans bullies as they go.

 

[Robz]

It almost feels like we are nearing critical mass.

Speaking of crit mass, one of the pioneers in transitioning kids and using puberty blockers comes out to say they may have been wrong to do so and the gnrh are actually harming kids.

Over 80% used to desist at her clinic... then they started using blockers and managed to get that number down to nearly 0%. Echoes what was coming out of the gids in England. Blockers are not a harmless "pause button"

MSN

www.msn.com

We were wrong,” she said. “They’re not as irreversible as we always thought, and they have longer term effects on kids’ growth and development, including making them sterile and quite a number of things affecting their bone growth.”

 

[Curried Goats]

From the NHS Cass review:

It's well known that the ability to engage in more complex thoughts occurs during puberty. The belief is that hormones triggers the maturation. Not sure how this could be controversial to you. If puberty does not occur, this ability is delayed.

Why do you imagine this is controversial to me? The link you posted stated that puberty blockers may affect brain development but if they do and how they do is unknown. From that you've leaped to assuming that it does affect their maturity and ability to process complex thoughts and yet the 14 year old in the video I posted seemed to exhibit more maturity than many of the adult, right wing posters here. I fully accept that puberty blockers may affect brain development but until science shows it does and how I'm not overly concerned. Why? Puberty blockers are not meant to be administered long term. They are meant to give teens a little time to decide whether or not they want to continue with their transition. Once they are started on hormone therapy development continues.

Cognitive Development in Adolescence

Cognitive development means the growth of a child's ability to think and reason. This growth happens differently from ages 6 to 12, and ages 12 to 18.

www.stanfordchildrens.org

That's not accurate. Often it happens during puberty. Most kids outgrow the identification by the time puberty is completed. From a 2016 study by Ristori and Steensma. Steensma is also on record indicating he expects desistance rates to be higher after puberty, when some studies stop measuring at early stages. (Note: desistance is distinct from detransition)- I'll assume you know this, so won't go in to detail.

Gender dysphoria in childhood - PubMed

Gender dysphoria (GD) in childhood is a complex phenomenon characterized by clinically significant distress due to the incongruence between assigned gender at birth and experienced gender. The clinical presentation of children who present with gender identity issues can be highly variable; the...

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

View attachment 764680


You'd have to read the academic literature. You should start there. Honestly.

I have read a bit more on that study actually. Seems it's an older study and many of the children sampled in it wouldn't qualify as having GD under the updated diagnosis of the DSM-5.

When Desisters aren't

A more recent study showed that 94% of children who socially transitioned (around a median age of 8 years old) remained transitioned 5 years later.

https://publications.aap.org/pediat...nder-Identity-5-Years-After-Social-Transition

From what I see of the limitations and criticisms of the older studies and the older DSM manual is that it lumped gay and lesbian, especially effeminate boys and masculine girls in with children who were genuinely suffering from GD.

All that said I have no problem with professional doctors, scientists and researchers debating methods and practices. There are doctors who will disagree on how to treat your cancer as well and these debates push medical knowledge forward. That's not at all what Republicans are interested in. They're in to pretending GD is a made up plot by groomers and the environment they want to foster would make it more difficult for gender and sexually confused children to better understand themselves.

 

[Curried Goats]

Of course. Adulthood, or age of majority, our Concepts that far predate neurobiology.

Yes, so our abortions. So were the Nazi medical experiments. So were the Tuskegee experiments. So are absurdly large boob jobs, and multiple plastic surgeries that turn people into freaks.

Did you have a point?

Do you? What do Nazis have to do with this conversation?

Your argument that people who don't want children to be given hormones and surgery are bigots is based on pure childishness. It is relevant to the debate only in that it is all you have.

No, my argument is that the right wing is full of bigots who have no desire whatsoever to actually help trans teens. I don't have any problem with medical professionals having disagreements, none of them, not a single one agree with you bigots that GD is a plot by big pharma and groomers.

Your "scientific" study certainly blew up in your face, hence your going into hiding for several days.

I'll make it as simple as I can: children =/= adults.

Oh, I'm sorry I have a life and a rather large family that occasionally require my attention rando internet guy.

Also it isn't my study. I'm not a doctor or a scientist. I don't take criticism of it personally.

No, but I'd raise adulthood to 21 and then legalize freedom for adults.

Which is still not the 25 years of age where science says our brains are fully developed. Why is that?

It's common sense. Sometimes science can Trump common sense, but in this case it doesn't.

Maybe it will someday. Keep hoping, I know the idea of young girls with penises is an obsession of yours.

Common sense sure looks a lot like you literally fantasizing about me being obsessed with young girls having penises. You can try to deny it but it's a fact that this remains nothing more than your fantasy.

There are legal minimum ages for all of those. The overwhelming majority of people who drive, vote, take out loans, or handle a gun, do not harm themselves or others by doing so, partly because we do not allow children to do those things.

And we don't allow children to administer their own puberty blockers and hormones. Those are administered by doctors with the consent of parents and guardians.

100% of kids subjected to "gender affirming" hormones are harmed in that their physical development is delayed or altered, just like your child t-girl.

In other words you mean they are harmed in your opinion, not necessarily theirs, their parents or their doctors.

One hundred percent of girls who have "top surgery" i.e. mastectomy for no medical reason, lose healthy parts of their body, and will never breastfeed their own children.

No medical reason, you random internet guy approve of...

One hundred percent of children whose healthy genitals are surgically altered to please adults lose biological function.

Please adults according to you without ever having spoken to any of these children....

Gee you don't sound bigote.... I mean biased.

We can discuss the age at which it is appropriate to allow "gender affirming care," without a deep philosophical discussion of age of consent, age of getting a learners permit, age of voting and military service vs. age of drinking, or renting a car. If you really feel that those things are relevant to the discussion, please state whether your support of "gender affirming care" for children includes eleven year olds being given a drivers license so they can drive themselves to the treatment, and a concealed carry permit so they can defend themselves from anti-trans bullies as they go.

You're the morons who keep suggesting GD teens can't consent to treatment because their brains aren't fully developed and therefore they can't make sound decisions for themselves.

 

[Robz]

Why do you imagine this is controversial to me? The link you posted stated that puberty blockers may affect brain development but if they do and how they do is unknown. From that you've leaped to assuming that it does affect their maturity and ability to process complex thoughts and yet the 14 year old in the video I posted seemed to exhibit more maturity than many of the adult, right wing posters here. I fully accept that puberty blockers may affect brain development but until science shows it does and how I'm not overly concerned. Why? Puberty blockers are not meant to be administered long term. They are meant to give teens a little time to decide whether or not they want to continue with their transition. Once they are started on hormone therapy development continues.

I suspect you don't quite underarand how the medical field is supposed to work. They shouldn't be doing things that (they suspect) "may" cause harm, but aren't sure of yet. They should study the issue and determine first.

As more individuals (on your side of the debate) are starting to realize, blockers are not just giving "more time to think", it is actually helping to solidify their identity.

See if this helps: most kids grow out of a trans ID by the completion of puberty. A new treatment stops puberty (gnrh) and they find that nearly all kids continue with a trans identity. At the same time this is happening, clinics are moving to an affirmation model and applying far less "gatekeeping".

I have read a bit more on that study actually. Seems it's an older study and many of the children sampled in it wouldn't qualify as having GD under the updated diagnosis of the DSM-5.

The purpose of introducing that study was proof that kids grow out of the identity "after puberty". The opposite of what you indicated.

but, you are correct. Some percentage of them were just gender non conforming in this study. Yet, they still desisted after puberty.

Anyway, they did rerun the numbers from this study and found that even those that would have met the definition under the current guidelines, still desisted at over 60% by the end of puberty.

Additionally there are 11 studies finding similar large percentages desist. In some of those studies, the kids actually had to state they wanted to be the opposite sex to be included, yet still, more often than not, desisted by the end of puberty.

When Desisters aren't

A more recent study showed that 94% of children who socially transitioned (around a median age of 8 years old) remained transitioned 5 years later.

https://publications.aap.org/pediat...nder-Identity-5-Years-After-Social-Transition

this study should really give you pause and help you realize that what I have indicated is accurate. Starting with neuroplasticity and continuing through delaying puberty and going on to CSH. They managed to take a problem that nearly all grew out of and changed it to a problem that nearly all stick with (at least in the short term) in just a few years time. This isn't the win you think it is.

Additionally, more and more "trans" individuals are actually detransitioing. Likely due to the previously discussed.

From a recently published study (2020):

While these are still a minority, we face more and more cases of transsexual people who ask for detransition and reversal of the changes achieved due to regret.

Not sure if yourealize, the average time to regret of transitioning is 8 to 10 years. There are at least two studies confirming this.

 

[Seymour Flops]

Do you? What do Nazis have to do with this conversation?

You brought up "health care providers" who medicalize gender confused kids as if their title of "health care provider" means they are not to be questioned by mere parents or others with an opinion on what is acceptable to do to kids. The Nazis who did the medical experiments were "health care providers," and so were the doctors who did the experiments at Tuskeegee.

You are not aware of those examples and many more?

No, my argument is that the right wing is full of bigots who have no desire whatsoever to actually help trans teens.

That is a bigoted opinion.

I don't have any problem with medical professionals having disagreements, none of them, not a single one agree with you bigots that GD is a plot by big pharma and groomers.

Many medical professionals are concerned that the benefits of gender affirming care are being exagerated by people with an agenda other than doing what is best for children. Some of them authored this peer-reviewed paper:

Abstract​

Two Dutch studies formed the foundation and the best available evidence for the practice of youth medical gender transition. We demonstrate that this work is methodologically flawed and should have never been used in medical settings as justification to scale this “innovative clinical practice.” Three methodological biases undermine the research: (1) subject selection assured that only the most successful cases were included in the results; (2) the finding that “resolution of gender dysphoria” was due to the reversal of the questionnaire employed; (3) concomitant psychotherapy made it impossible to separate the effects of this intervention from those of hormones and surgery. We discuss the significant risk of harm that the Dutch research exposed, as well as the lack of applicability of the Dutch protocol to the currently escalating incidence of adolescent-onset, non-binary, psychiatrically challenged youth, who are preponderantly natal females. "Spin" problems—the tendency to present weak or negative results as certain and positive—continue to plague reports that originate from clinics that are actively administering hormonal and surgical interventions to youth. It is time for gender medicine to pay attention to the published objective systematic reviews and to the outcome uncertainties and definable potential harms to these vulnerable youth.

https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/0092623X.2022.2150346

Oh, I'm sorry I have a life and a rather large family that occasionally require my attention rando internet guy.

Please get back to them, if you can do no better than this.

Also it isn't my study. I'm not a doctor or a scientist. I don't take criticism of it personally.

No, you just run and hide from criticism of the study you fell for.

Which is still not the 25 years of age where science says our brains are fully developed. Why is that?

I already explained that to you. But I'm a special ed teacher so I'm used to having to explain multiple times and in simplied ways to children who don't retain information very well. When I said that conventions and laws about the age of adulthood and majority far predate neurobiology, I meant that folks set age limits before they knew how the brain works. Simple enough?

Common sense sure looks a lot like you literally fantasizing about me being obsessed with young girls having penises. You can try to deny it but it's a fact that this remains nothing more than your fantasy.

You literally posted a video of a little girl with a penis.

And we don't allow children to administer their own puberty blockers and hormones. Those are administered by doctors with the consent of parents and guardians.

Correct. "gender affirming care" is something that is done to children, not something they do to themselves. There are children who cut themselves due to mental illness, but so far we don't have adults who advocate cutting children who "want to" cut themselves.

Well, other than in the transgederization of children movement, of course.

In other words you mean they are harmed in your opinion, not necessarily theirs, their parents or their doctors.

Having breasts cut off is harm, by any objective measure.

No medical reason, you random internet guy approve of...

What is the medial reason for young girls to have "top surgery" i.e. mastectomy?

Please adults according to you without ever having spoken to any of these children....

Gee you don't sound bigote.... I mean biased.

You said above that it is the adults that do it, not the kids.

You're the morons who keep suggesting GD teens can't consent to treatment because their brains aren't fully developed and therefore they can't make sound decisions for themselves.

It's an old principle in law that kids are not allowed to make any decision they want to. If you want those laws to go away, feel free to tell us why.

Do you believe that girls and boys too young to consent to sex with an adult are old enough to consent to an adult removing body parts?

Or are like many Democrats who believe that age of consent laws discriminate against "Minor Attracted Persons" and the supposed children who want to have sex with old dudes?

 

[Curried Goats]

I suspect you don't quite underarand how the medical field is supposed to work. They shouldn't be doing things that (they suspect) "may" cause harm, but aren't sure of yet. They should study the issue and determine first.

You have misinterpreted their words. They don't suspect it may cause harm they acknowledge that it may cause harm and so they want to study its long term effects. There is a giant difference between the two. It's also important to note that puberty blockers while not specifically approved to treat GD is approved to treat early onset puberty and has been in use for quite some time without any evidence of it causing severe or even minor brain development issues.

As more individuals (on your side of the debate) are starting to realize, blockers are not just giving "more time to think", it is actually helping to solidify their identity.

I don't know what this means.

See if this helps: most kids grow out of a trans ID by the completion of puberty.

The study you have that points to that evidence is flawed and uses an out dated classification of GD that mislabels gay and lesbian children as GD.

A new treatment stops puberty (gnrh) and they find that nearly all kids continue with a trans identity. At the same time this is happening, clinics are moving to an affirmation model and applying far less "gatekeeping".

Are they applying far less gatekeeping? I see accusations of that, I don't see much rigorous data on detransitioners. What are you basing this information on? What little data we have points to detransitioners being a tiny minority and even if they are a bigger minority that we currently see they aren't anywhere near to being a majority.

I don't know what you mean by less gatekeeping but I do know bigot Republicans are trying to end any ability for gay and gender confused students to talk about their experiences and feelings with their adult educators and school counselors.

true, some percentage of them were just gender non conforming in this study. Yet, they still desisted after puberty only.

The study is flawed.

Anyway, they did rerun the numbers from this study and found that even those that would have met the definition under the current guidelines, still desisted at over 60%.

Additionally there are 11 studies finding similar large percentages desist. In some of those studies, the kids actually had to state they wanted to be the opposite sex to be included, yet still, more often than not, desisted by the end of puberty.

Most if not all of them used the same old guidlines for determining GD.

this study should really give you pause and help you realize that what I have indicated is accurate. Starting with neuroplasticity and continuing through delaying puberty and going on to CSH. They managed to take a problem that nearly all grew out of and changed it to a problem that nearly all stick with (at least in the short term) in just a few years time. This isn't the win you think it is.

What it indicates is that we are improving our ability to identify GD children.

Additionally, more and more "trans" individuals are actually detransitioing. Likely due to the previously discussed.

From a recently published study (2020):


Not sure if yourealize, the average time to regret of transitioning is 8 to 10 years. There are at least two studies confirming this.

I don't know what they study actually says or how it was conducted because you haven't posted a link to it.

 

[Curried Goats]

You brought up "health care providers" who medicalize gender confused kids as if their title of "health care provider" means they are not to be questioned by mere parents or others with an opinion on what is acceptable to do to kids. The Nazis who did the medical experiments were "health care providers," and so were the doctors who did the experiments at Tuskeegee.

Yes, I brought up healthcare providers and you brought up Nazi doctors because you're a clown not ready to have an adult conversation. I have not once suggested any doctor is above question, I suggest that their medical opinions require serious consideration and in the case of disagreement, serious rebuttal. Your rebuttal seems to boil down to "they are all on the take" and "the nazi had doctors too". I'm going to consider, for the sake of argument, that you really think these are serious rebuttals to their scientific evidence but I don't. I get that you also include rebuttals from other doctors and researchers but their conclusions are not the same as yours. None of your links suggest the doctors who's work is being questioned is wrong because they're groomers or on the take. What we have are professionals disagreeing with one another about results and trying to find better methods to treat children with GD.

Many medical professionals are concerned that the benefits of gender affirming care are being exagerated by people with an agenda other than doing what is best for children. Some of them authored this peer-reviewed paper:

Abstract​

Two Dutch studies formed the foundation and the best available evidence for the practice of youth medical gender transition. We demonstrate that this work is methodologically flawed and should have never been used in medical settings as justification to scale this “innovative clinical practice.” Three methodological biases undermine the research: (1) subject selection assured that only the most successful cases were included in the results; (2) the finding that “resolution of gender dysphoria” was due to the reversal of the questionnaire employed; (3) concomitant psychotherapy made it impossible to separate the effects of this intervention from those of hormones and surgery. We discuss the significant risk of harm that the Dutch research exposed, as well as the lack of applicability of the Dutch protocol to the currently escalating incidence of adolescent-onset, non-binary, psychiatrically challenged youth, who are preponderantly natal females. "Spin" problems—the tendency to present weak or negative results as certain and positive—continue to plague reports that originate from clinics that are actively administering hormonal and surgical interventions to youth. It is time for gender medicine to pay attention to the published objective systematic reviews and to the outcome uncertainties and definable potential harms to these vulnerable youth.

https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/0092623X.2022.2150346

Please get back to them, if you can do no better than this.

I can simply ask them what the numbers are on actual detransitioners and they have no answer. Also there are more than just the Dutch study that show the benefits of trans care.

No, you just run and hide from criticism of the study you fell for.

I've been here this whole time my guy. It really hurts you that I have a life doesn't it?

I already explained that to you. But I'm a special ed teacher so I'm used to having to explain multiple times and in simplied ways to children who don't retain information very well. When I said that conventions and laws about the age of adulthood and majority far predate neurobiology, I meant that folks set age limits before they knew how the brain works. Simple enough?

What that doesn't explain to me is why you support the age of adulthood being 21 when the science says our brains aren't fully developed until 25. I didn't ask you about how the laws came to be but nice try at a dodge.

You literally posted a video of a little girl with a penis.

I don’t have any idea what genitalia that little girl has and it didn't even occur me to think about it. This is just more projection by you. She doesn't ever mention her genitalia so I'm not sure why thoughts of her genitalia would ever enter your mind. What she speaks about and why I shared it here, is her experience with gender confusion. Her depression and loneliness over being bullied and not being able to be her authentic self in public and how much better she felt after finding a school and a community that would allow her to do that without constant hate and vitriol. You're the one who boiled her experiences down to her sexuality and genitalia. That's an undeniable fact.

Correct. "gender affirming care" is something that is done to children, not something they do to themselves. There are children who cut themselves due to mental illness, but so far we don't have adults who advocate cutting children who "want to" cut themselves.

Yes. Healthcare isn't something children typically provide themselves. How astute of you.

Well, other than in the transgederization of children movement, of course.

Having breasts cut off is harm, by any objective measure.

What is the medial reason for young girls to have "top surgery" i.e. mastectomy?

Poisoning the body with chemicals to remove cancer is also harmful in many ways. Still, when necessary, we even do it to children. The medical reason for top surgery could be to prevent or remove cancerous tissue or to alleviate distress associated with gender dysphoria.

You said above that it is the adults that do it, not the kids.

Yes. Children do not provide their own healthcare. It's weird but also slightly funny I have to keep reiterating that point to you as if you're confused by it.

It's an old principle in law that kids are not allowed to make any decision they want to. If you want those laws to go away, feel free to tell us why.

I don't want that. What I want is simple. I want children, their parents or guardians and their doctors to able to make whatever decisions they feel are in their best interests medically and I have a bigger faith in the medical community at large determining what medical practices are sound or unethical over politicians and certainly over Republican politicians.

Do you believe that girls and boys too young to consent to sex with an adult are old enough to consent to an adult removing body parts?

I don't think those two things are at all similar.

Or are like many Democrats who believe that age of consent laws discriminate against "Minor Attracted Persons" and the supposed children who want to have sex with old dudes?

It was Republican legislators that recently killed a bill to ban child marriages in West Virginia.

 

[Robz]

I don't know what this means.

Yeah... its a tough one.

numerous doctors expressed concerns that puberty blockers made children’s temporary gender confusion permanent by solidifying their sense of actually being the opposite sex, according to The New York Times.

The study you have that points to that evidence is flawed and uses an out dated classification of GD that mislabels gay and lesbian children as GD.

As indicated, they still found 67% desisted after correcting to dsm5 definitions. so, of those that were subthreshold dsm5, 93% desisted. Of those that met the threshold of the dsm 5, 67% desisted. Additionally, neither the criticism nor reanalysis changed the fact that this typically occurred near and after puberty. In the same, he theorized that parents socially transitioning and reinforcing the trans ID, would result in more persistence. As the more recent study confirms.

https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1080/15532739.2018.1468293?journalCode=wijt20

And that's not including the older study that found even of kids that expressed a desire to be the opposite gender, majorities desisted.

Are they applying far less gatekeeping?

Yes, as confirmed in a recent Reuters and bmj article (both previously posted).

 

[Curried Goats]

Yeah... its a tough one.

As indicated, they still found 67% desisted after correcting to dsm5 definitions. so, of those that were subthreshold dsm5, 93% desisted. Of those that met the threshold of the dsm 5, 67% desisted. Additionally, neither the criticism nor reanalysis changed the fact that this typically occurred near and after puberty. In the same, he theorized that parents socially transitioning and reinforcing the trans ID, would result in more persistence. As the more recent study confirms.

If you're talking about Dr. Steensma's study here is the summary of his own follow up in 2013.

Factors associated with desistence and persistence of childhood gender dysphoria: a quantitative follow-up study - PubMed

Conclusion: Intensity of early GD appears to be an important predictor of persistence of GD. Clinical recommendations for the support of children with GD may need to be developed independently for natal boys and for girls, as the presentation of boys and girls with GD is different, and different factors are predictive for the persistence of GD.

https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1080/15532739.2018.1468293?journalCode=wijt20

And that's not including the older study that found even of kids that expressed a desire to be the opposite gender, majorities desisted.

Yes, as confirmed in a recent Reuters and bmj article (both previously posted).

You can read a critique of Dr Zuckers work and methods in these two articles.

The Desistance Narrative Is Junk Science

Born This Way?

I don't know if there are any institutions of care today supporting this approach of trying to re-affirm patients assigned birth gender. Even the countries like Sweden and Finland who are pulling back on trans care and confining it to a clinical setting aren't arguing we should try to convince children to accept their assigned genders.