Do Faithful Muslims Lie?

[Mr.Fitnah]

I dont want there to be any doubt
.Mr Kalam,thank you for confirming a great deal of what I have been saying about Islam all along to some extent the part in the italics is debatable.
As you know transgression is permitted against wrongdoers


.

From your source
8. Al Anfal (The Spoils of War)
Sayyid Abul Ala Maududi - Tafhim al-Qur'an - The Meaning of the Qur'an
3:39
And the end notes
2:204/205

. As a matter of fact, Islam allows freedom of belief to all non-Muslims. One may adopt any way of life that one chooses and may or may not worship anyone or anything.

It exhorts the believers to preach and to persuade the unbelievers and the wrong doers by argument to give up their false faith and evil ways, but it does not allow the unbelievers the right to enforce on God's earth any ungodly law and make the servants of Allah the servants of some one else.

In order to remove such an unjust condition, Islam allows both preaching and fighting according to the requirements of the occasion. The believers, therefore, cannot rest content unless this fitnah, political domination and legal sovereignty of unbelievers, is eradicated and freedom for the Way of Allah is secured.

http://www.usmessageboard.com/2866790-post161.html


How does that not fit into the "Islamic world domination conspiracy theory."

 

[Kalam]

Mr Kalam,thank you for confirming a great deal of what I have been saying about Islam all along to some extent the part in the italics is debatable.

Nope.

Ibn 'Abbas, 2:193

(And fight them) if they initiate fighting against you whether you are in the Sacred Precinct or not (until persecution is no more) until there is not association of partners with Allah in the Sacred Precinct, (and religion is for Allah) and Islam and worship of Allah reign in the Sacred Precinct. (If they desist) from fighting you in the Sacred Precinct, (then let there be no hostility) you are not allowed to kill them (except against wrong-doers) except those who start the fight against you.​

Imam at-Tabari, Surat at-Tawbah

...Some people may feel differently, taking the order to mean that once the truce was over, the Muslims were meant to kill all unbelievers. They may quote in support of their view the next verse which states: ‘When these months of grace are over, slay the idolaters wherever you find them.’ (Verse 5) But this view is wrong. Verse 7 confirms our view and shows the opposite as wrong: ‘How can there be a treaty with God and His Messenger for the idolaters, unless it be those of them with whom you have made a treaty at the Sacred Mosque? So long as they are true to you, be true to them; for God loves those who are God-fearing.’ Those people to whom this verse refers are idolaters, and God commands the Prophet and the believers to remain faithful to their treaty with them as long as they kept their part and fulfilled their obligations.​

Qutb, 2:256

Islam looks at religious faith as a matter of conviction, once the basic facts are provided and explained. Faith is never a matter of coercion or compulsion. To achieve this conviction, Islam addresses the human being in totality. It addresses the human mind and intellect, human common sense, emotions and feelings, the innermost human nature, and the whole human conscious being. It resorts to no coercive means or physical miracles that confound the mind or that are beyond human ability to rationalize and
comprehend.
By the same token, Islam never seeks converts through compulsion or threats or pressure of any kind. It deploys facts, reasoning, explanation and persuasion.
In contrast, we find that Christianity, the last revealed religion before Islam, was imposed by force after Constantine, the Roman Emperor, made Christianity the official religion throughout his empire. He adopted the same brutal means his predecessors had used against Christian minorities. These were not restricted to subjects who did not convert to Christianity, but were also used against Christians who would not accept the official doctrine sanctioned by the emperor.
Islam came to declare and establish the great universal principle that: “There shall be no compulsion in religion. The right way is henceforth distinct from error.” (Verse 256) This reflects the honour God has reserved for man and the high regard in which man’s will, thought and emotions are held, and the freedom he is granted to choose his beliefs, and the responsible position he is afforded to be judge of his own actions. Here lies the essence of human emancipation which 20th-century authoritarian and oppressive ideologies and regimes have denied mankind. Modern man has been deprived of the right to choose and live other than according to what is dictated by the state, using the full force of its colossal machinery, laws and powers. People are today given the choice only to adhere to the secular state system, which does not allow for a belief in God as the Creator and Master of the world, or to face annihilation.
Freedom of belief is the most basic right that identifies man as a human being. To deny anyone this right is to deny him or her humanity. Freedom of belief also implies the freedom to express and propagate one’s belief without fear of threat or persecution; otherwise, that freedom is hollow and meaningless.
Islam, undoubtedly the most enlightened view of life and the world, establishing a most sensible human and social system, takes the lead in declaring this most fundamental principle. It teaches its adherents, before anyone else, that they are forbidden to compel others to embrace Islam. This Islamic approach stands in total contrast to that of man-made systems and regimes which, despite all their inherent shortcomings, impose their beliefs and policies by the force of the state and deny their opponents the right to dissent or even live.
The Arabic text, using a generic negative, imparts a negation of the very idea of compulsion. When it comes to matters of belief, not only should these never be imposed by coercion or compulsion, but there cannot even be an option to use such a means of conversion or persuasion.​

As you know transgression is permitted against wrongdoers

Whom ibn 'Abbas identifies as "those who start the fight against you (Muslims.)" The foremost tafaseer are consistent; you don't post "the views of the scholars."

From your source
8. Al Anfal (The Spoils of War)
Sayyid Abul Ala Maududi - Tafhim al-Qur'an - The Meaning of the Qur'an
3:39
And the end notes
2:204/205

. As a matter of fact, Islam allows freedom of belief to all non-Muslims. One may adopt any way of life that one chooses and may or may not worship anyone or anything.

It exhorts the believers to preach and to persuade the unbelievers and the wrong doers by argument to give up their false faith and evil ways, but it does not allow the unbelievers the right to enforce on God's earth any ungodly law and make the servants of Allah the servants of some one else.

In order to remove such an unjust condition, Islam allows both preaching and fighting according to the requirements of the occasion. The believers, therefore, cannot rest content unless this fitnah, political domination and legal sovereignty of unbelievers, is eradicated and freedom for the Way of Allah is secured.

http://www.usmessageboard.com/2866790-post161.html

How does that not fit into the "Islamic world domination conspiracy theory."

 

[Mr.Fitnah]

Do you have a links for what you posted,
Id be real interested in reading that stuff.

 

[Mr.Fitnah]

Well then it is unattributed bullshit that contradicts the Quran.

 

[Madeline]

Well then it is unattributed bullshit that contradicts the Quran.

Why? Because Kalam took a few minutes off to go eat dinner (or whatever)? We are not all glued to the pc, Mr. Fitnah.

 

[Mr.Fitnah]

Oh Ill wait more, but Mr. Kalam rarely has any links for his bidah.

 

[Sky Dancer]

Well then it is unattributed bullshit that contradicts the Quran.

Why? Because Kalam took a few minutes off to go eat dinner (or whatever)? We are not all glued to the pc, Mr. Fitnah.

Kalam may actually have a life.

 

[Mr.Fitnah]

Mr.Kalam Do you have a links for what you posted,
http://www.usmessageboard.com/2868398-post182.html
Id be real interested in reading that stuff.

 

[Bigmo]

There is nothing called conquest in the Koran. Wars are fought only when attacked. The Koran stipulates the job of the prophet very clearly. His job is to preach and warn.

Offensive Jihad is a myth. There is nothing called offensive jihad. The Koran does not even use the word jihad to mean fighting. Jihad means to strive. Often it comes with money and yourself. The Koran uses "qital" for fighting.

 

[SuMar]

The Muslims who do lie are the ones who claim to be of peace and intend no harm on anyone. When actually, a true Muslim, believes in killing non-believers to the faith.

(2:191-2) "Slay them wherever ye find them." Kill disbelievers wherever you find them. If they attack you, then kill them. Such is the reward of disbelievers. (But if they desist in their unbelief, then don't kill them.)

So the holiest thing in a Muslim's life states that they should kill anyone who is non-Muslim, you, me, so on. If anyone tells you that this religion is peaceful do not buy it. I don't care how peaceful whatever Muslim seems to you, they are still following this book as a guide for life. They might not advocate violence but they still regard the Qu'ran as holy even though they know it states this.

 

[Mr.Fitnah]

Mr.Kalam Do you have a links for what you posted,
http://www.usmessageboard.com/2868398-post182.html
Id be real interested in reading that stuff.

 

[Kalam]

Do you have a links for what you posted,
Id be real interested in reading that stuff.

Tafseer Ibn Abbas, Jami' al-Bayan 'an Ta'wil ay al-Qur'an (Tafseer at-Tabari), Fi Dhilal al-Qur'an. The passage from at-Tabari was quoted by Qutb and can be found in his tafseer of Surat at-Tawbah.

 

[Madeline]

Do you have a links for what you posted,
Id be real interested in reading that stuff.

Tafseer Ibn Abbas, Jami' al-Bayan 'an Ta'wil ay al-Qur'an (Tafseer at-Tabari), Fi Dhilal al-Qur'an. The passage from at-Tabari was quoted by Qutb and can be found in his tafseer of Surat at-Tawbah.

WHERE have you been????!!!

We have been waiting for hours, yanno. Gheesh.

*Laughs*

 

[Kalam]

Do you have a links for what you posted,
Id be real interested in reading that stuff.

Tafseer Ibn Abbas, Jami' al-Bayan 'an Ta'wil ay al-Qur'an (Tafseer at-Tabari), Fi Dhilal al-Qur'an. The passage from at-Tabari was quoted by Qutb and can be found in his tafseer of Surat at-Tawbah.

WHERE have you been????!!!

We have been waiting for hours, yanno. Gheesh.

*Laughs*

Catching up on sleep.

 

[Madeline]

Tafseer Ibn Abbas, Jami' al-Bayan 'an Ta'wil ay al-Qur'an (Tafseer at-Tabari), Fi Dhilal al-Qur'an. The passage from at-Tabari was quoted by Qutb and can be found in his tafseer of Surat at-Tawbah.

WHERE have you been????!!!

We have been waiting for hours, yanno. Gheesh.

*Laughs*

Catching up on sleep.

What an inadequate excuse!

 

[Kalam]

(2:191-2) "Slay them wherever ye find them." Kill disbelievers wherever you find them. If they attack you, then kill them. Such is the reward of disbelievers. (But if they desist in their unbelief, then don't kill them.)

2:190-194, for clarification -

"And fight in the way of Allah those who fight against you and transgress not. Indeed, Allah likes not the transgressors. And kill them wherever you find them, and drive them out from wherever they drove you out, and fitnatun(strife, oppression, factionalism) is worse than killing. And do not fight them near al-Masjid al-Haram until they fight you in it. Then if they fight you, then kill them. Such is the reward of the disbelievers. Then if they cease, then indeed, Allah is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful. And fight them until there is no fitnatun and the Deen (the way, the recompense) becomes for Allah. Then if they cease then [let there be] no hostility except against the wrongdoers. The sacred month is for the sacred month and for forbidden things is retribution. Then whoever transgressed upon you, then you transgress upon him in the same manner as he transgressed upon you. And fear Allah and know that Allah is with those who fear."​

 

[Mr.Fitnah]

Do you have a links for what you posted,
Id be real interested in reading that stuff.

Tafseer Ibn Abbas, Jami' al-Bayan 'an Ta'wil ay al-Qur'an (Tafseer at-Tabari), Fi Dhilal al-Qur'an. The passage from at-Tabari was quoted by Qutb and can be found in his tafseer of Surat at-Tawbah.

So the answer is no.
I always include a link with any opinion of a scholar when I post,
Why do you fail to do so?

 

[Mr.Fitnah]

You decided that the prior tafsir was insufficient
http://www.usmessageboard.com/2867870-post179.html upon reflection required
clarification from Qutb?
The tafsir was clear but you didnt like what it revealed.

Is this the new game , an unending game of kick the can when one whole is punched in the story ,a patch is thrown on top?

What comes after Qutb?

Surely you object to this

Of course, in that case the defense of the 'homeland of Islam' is the defense of
the Islamic beliefs, the Islamic way of life, and the Islamic community. However, its
defense is not the ultimate objective of the Islamic movement of Jihad but is a
means of establishing the divine authority within it so that it becomes the
headquarters for the movement of Islam, which is then to be carried throughout
the earth to the whole of mankind, as the object of this religion is all humanity and
its sphere of action is the whole earth.

 

[Mr.Fitnah]

As I have said all along.

Sayyid Qutb tafseer of Surat at-Tawbah

We understand why they find it so incomprehensible. They simply forget that
jihād is meant to serve God’s cause. It aims to establish God’s authority and to
remove tyranny. It liberates mankind from submission to any authority other than
that of God. “Fight them until there is no more oppression, and all submission is made to
God alone.” (8: 39) jihād does not aim to achieve the hegemony of one philosophy or
system or nation over another. It wants the system laid down by God to replace the
systems established by His creatures. It does not wish to establish a kingdom for any
one of God’s servants, but to establish God’s own kingdom. Hence it has to move
forward throughout the earth in order to liberate the whole of mankind, without
discrimination between those who are within the land of Islam and those who are
outside it. The whole earth is populated by human beings who are being subjected to
different types of tyrannical authority wielded by fellow human beings.

When they lose sight of this fact they find it odd that one system and one nation
should move forward to remove all systems and dominate all communities. If things
were such, that would be odd indeed. But the systems that exist today are all manmade.
None of them has any right to say that it alone should dominate the others.
The same does not apply to the divine system which sets out to overthrow all manmade
systems in order to liberate all mankind from the humiliation of submission to
other human beings, so that they can submit to God alone and worship Him only

without any partners. Moreover, they find it odd because they face a concentrated
and wicked crusade which tells them that the Islamic faith managed to spread only
because it used the sword. Jihād, it claims, wanted to force other people to accept
Islam, depriving them of the freedom of belief.

Had things been so, they would have been odd indeed. But the truth is totally
different. Islam lays down a rule stating that “There shall be no compulsion in religion.
The right way is henceforth distinct from error.” (2: 256) Why does Islam, then, move
forward to fight, and why has God bought the believers’ souls and property, so that
“they fight for the cause of God, kill and be killed”? (Verse 111) The answer is that jihād
has a reason which is totally different from compelling other people to accept Islam.
Indeed jihād seeks to guarantee the freedom of belief.


As we have stated on several occasions, Islam is a declaration which liberates
mankind throughout the earth from submission to human beings. As such, Islam
always faces tyrannical forces and systems which seek to subjugate people and
dominate their lives. These systems are backed by regimes and powers of different
sorts, which deprive people of the chance to listen to the Islamic message and to
adopt it if they are convinced of its truth. Or they may force people, in one way or
another, to turn away from the Islamic message. That is an ugly violation of the
freedom of belief. For these reasons, Islam moves forward, equipped with suitable
power, to overthrow these systems and destroy their forces.


What happens then? It leaves people entirely free to adopt the faith they like. If
they wish to be Muslims, they will have all the rights and duties that apply to all
Muslims. They will have a bond of real brotherhood with those who have been
Muslims long before them. On the other hand, if they wish to maintain their
religions, they may do so. They only have to pay a tribute, i.e. jizyah, which has a
clear purpose: to acknowledge the freedom of movement for Islam among them, to
contribute to the treasury of the Muslim state which is required to protect them
against any outside aggression, and to look after those of them who are ill, disabled
and elderly in the same way as Muslims are looked after.

 

[Mr.Fitnah]

So what patches Qutb?