Zone1 Do Christians Proselytize out of “Love” - or Arrogance?

[CarlinAnnArbor]

Like King David the Messiah would vanquish the enemies of the Jews

He will. Have you not read the NT?

 

[irosie91]

He will. Have you not read the NT?

I missed that part-----where does the NT describe the messiah as
a "warrior king"?

 

[CarlinAnnArbor]

Can you explain why Jews don't proselytize?

I know the answer and it ain't pretty. Care to come out and say it?

 

[surada]

He will. Have you not read the NT?

Oh yes, I've read it. When did Jesus vanquish the enemies of the Jews?

 

[surada]

take your own advice. Where in the discussion of messiah does the
idea of a "WARRIOR KING" arise? In fact, you should reread ISAIAH----
he is the guy that jews do consider an expert on the subject. What (da hell)
did you mean by------"So this story is also in the Torah? I had no idea".
Interesting news for you----even back then jews were literate and wrote stuff
all the time-----somehow your sunday school "lady" forgot to let you know.
REREAD ISAIAH ---not only for his concept of messiah----he also describes
the role of the "king' in --'the days after' <<<< that means the messianic
age. SHEEEESH go to a hotel---there is a gideon bible in the night table

Isaiah is about Israel not Jesus.

 

[AsherN]

Christians believe Jesus was Judah via his mother.

I don't know how anyone can expect a Jewish Messiah nowadays, since Judah can scarce be found.

Except that tribal affiliation and lineage is patrilineal.

 

[irosie91]

Isaiah is about Israel not Jesus.

Isaiah describes the accomplishments of DA MESSIAH ---and the role
of the king (not the messiah) in Israel in the glorious situation created
by the messiah (not a warrior either) It's in the Tanach--not the Torah.
Check the nite table in your local flop house

 

[irosie91]

Can you explain why Jews don't proselytize?

I know the answer and it ain't pretty. Care to come out and say it?

I will do the dirty deed for you. There are several reasons that jews
do not proselytize-----the MOST IMPORTANT is the fact that according
to both Justinian law (aka catholic canon law) and Shariah (sh^*) proselytizing
by jews is a capital crime

 

[GMCGeneral]

Your OPINION is noted.

Nope. Fact. Jesus was not crucified as a "political" opponent or such other claptrap. He IS the perfect Lamb of G-d who bled and died as full satisfactory payment for our sins.
On a side note, your claim that the Gospel of John is hostile towards Jews is totally wrong. John wrote his Gospel towards a Gentile audience.

 

[irosie91]

Nope. Fact. Jesus was not crucified as a "political" opponent or such other claptrap. He IS the perfect Lamb of G-d who bled and died as full satisfactory payment for our sins.
On a side note, your claim that the Gospel of John is hostile towards Jews is totally wrong. John wrote his Gospel towards a Gentile audience.

Of course it was toward a gentile audience----the "JOHN" wrote a chapter
in the Roman book called THE NT (payment for sins? <<< another roman
concept)

 

[Lisa558]

Nope. Fact. Jesus was not crucified as a "political" opponent or such other claptrap. He IS the perfect Lamb of G-d who bled and died as full satisfactory payment for our sins.
On a side note, your claim that the Gospel of John is hostile towards Jews is totally wrong. John wrote his Gospel towards a Gentile audience.

Now you’re just being obnoxious .- arguing and insisting to a Jew that it is a FACT that Jesus died for our sins, etc.

You are showing what is wrong with arrogant and rude Evangelical Christians who keep pounding.….and pounding….pounding over the head of a Jew who does not follow your religion that you are right and she is wrong.

It is all a matter of OPINION.

 

[Lisa558]

Can you explain why Jews don't proselytize?

I know the answer and it ain't pretty. Care to come out and say it?

Sure sounds like you don’t like Jews. I’m sure the answer you THINK you know came from the same place instilling your negativism toward Jews.

The reason Jews don‘t proselytize is because, unlike Christians who insist you must follow their religion to be saved, we don’t think one has to be Jewish for salivation. All you have to be is a good person. As it is said: “the righteous of ALL nations have a share in the World to Come.”

 

[buttercup]

Hi Lisa...I know I’m replying to this a few days late. (I was actually planning to take a long break from this site, but I wanted to stick to what I said about replying to you, so here I am.)

I’ve tried to break your response down into sections, but the formatting isn’t working right, so I’ll just have to capture the basics below:

1. I’m sorry you don’t like the way I framed my question, but of course it’s coming from my experience with Evangelical Christians who have harassed me, warned me that G-d is angry with Jews and will punish us if we don’t convert, send me sermons from their church in which the pastor vilifies Jews - and then tell me they are doing all that out of “love.” It sure doesn’t feel that way. It comes across as blatant disapproval of my religion, which is closely aligned with my self-identity.

It’s very unfortunate that you had that bad experience with people who call themselves Christians. Jesus said that the second most important commandment (second only to loving God) is “'Love your neighbour as yourself.” And as I mentioned in my earlier post, the New Testament also says to do everything in love.

In fact, Jesus taught that it’s not enough to love only our friends or those in our own circles…He taught that we should love even our enemies.

So if the people you had that experience with were not loving or gentle or kind, then they were just acting from their own human nature… but going against one of the most important commands.

2. I’m glad you agree that harassing or otherwise being overly aggressive is not what Jesus would have wanted, and that Christians who behave that way are not following Jesus’ teachings.

Of course. Btw this reminds of one of my favorite passages in the Bible, I hope you don’t mind if I share it here, because I think it perfectly applies to the problem with the people you encountered:

If I speak in the tongues of men or of angels, but do not have love, I am only a resounding gong or a clanging cymbal. If I have the gift of prophecy and can fathom all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have a faith that can move mountains, but do not have love, I am nothing. If I give all I possess to the poor and give over my body to hardship that I may boast, but do not have love, I gain nothing.​

​

Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. It does not dishonor others, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres.​

​

1 Corinthians 13:1-7​

3. You said “IF” Jesus is G-d in the flesh, then it’s not arrogant for him (I’m assuming you mean the Christian) to simply state the truth. But that’s a big IF. I know you believe he is. But the people you are trying to convert do NOT believe that, and your holding yourself up as the arbiter of the truth, and the Jew as the “lost soul“ who is wrong, then yes, it is arrogant.

Well, actually, I was talking about Jesus when I said that it wasn’t arrogant when He said that, if it is the truth. But I fully understand that it might seem arrogant to others, as it almost certainly did to the people of that day who didn’t believe Him.

But in terms of Christians saying that (basically quoting John 14:6), I would say it comes down to a person’s motive or intention. If their intention is bad, for example if their intention is to insult other people’s religious beliefs or if they just want to be combative and argumentative… In that case I would say yes, it is spoken from arrogance. But on the other hand, I think if a person sincerely believes that with all their heart and simply wants to share with others what they believe, I don't think that it is arrogant to simply state what Jesus Himself said… Again, as long as it isn’t stated with the wrong motive, or in a rude, unloving way.

I don't agree that it's about claiming to be the arbiter of all truth, rather sharing with others what one firmly believes to be the truth.

This is why personal testimonies are so powerful. When a person shares how their life has radically changed upon accepting Jesus, the thing about personal testimonies is no one can really argue with it. Of course one can choose to disbelieve it, but when a person is speaking about what truly happened in their life, it is a powerful thing, and that is why the Bible says to share one’s testimony, and it even says that many people come to Christ due to personal testimonies.

Finally, you said it doesn’t matter what we believe to be the truth, because the truth is the truth regardless of who believes it. But then, who is to determine the truth? The Christian, who believes that Jesus is G-d’s son, or the Jew who believes he is not? The arrogance comes in with implicit belief that the Christian is right, and thinking that way, feels comfortable to “straighten out” all those who believe differently.

I think it is up to each individual - to everyone - to seek the truth wholeheartedly, and to use wisdom and discernment in determining what is true and what isn’t. People can examine different worldviews, different beliefs, and weigh the evidence... and of course put truth first, above all else, no matter where it leads.

Again, I don't think it's arrogant when a person says what they believe if it is what they sincerely believe, not to put anyone down or to be combative, but if their goal to share something that they firmly believe is true, and that changed their life. As a born-again Christian, that is why I try to reach others. Coming to Christ completely changed my life, in just about every way. As a very non-religious person, if someone would've told me 25 years ago that one day I would be a Christian AND someone who has done world missions work... I would've laughed at them and said no way, you're crazy. I never in a million years thought I would one day become a practicing Christian, yet here I am. Life sometimes takes turns that we don't expect.

But getting back to the point about sharing views.... The reality is, people do this all the time, with all sorts of different things. With politics, social causes (like the abortion debate), with different ideas, etc. I don't think there's anything wrong with the exchange of ideas, with trying to get people to see things a different way…. again, assuming it is done respectfully, not in a mean-spirited or aggressive way.

For example, I've been a vegan for 6 years. And that's another message that I share with whoever will listen. I realize a lot of people hate vegans because they think some are pushy and evangelistic, always trying to get everyone to go vegan. In fact I used to be one of those people who argued with vegans and didn't like what they were saying… Until I finally saw some undeniable truths that radically shifted my mindset, almost overnight. And then at that point I was like “Why didn't anyone tell me this sooner?” lol.

So people are always exchanging ideas and beliefs, on a variety of different topics. If one has a message that they feel is important, then there's nothing wrong with sharing that message, again, as long as it's done in the right way, and respecting others' right to be left alone, if they don't want to hear it.

I get that your religion commands you to “spread the news.” But you must know that every Jew over the age of 5 knows that Christians believe Jesus is G-d’s son. So you’re not sharing anything with us that we don’t already know, and obviously we have decided to be loyal to our Jewish heritage, traditions, laws, and beliefs.

So, the way I see it is if you feel compelled to tell Jews that Jesus is the way to G-d, say it once to meet your commandment, and then drop it. It seems we agree on that point.

While it's true that Jews know from an early age that Christians believe Jesus is God’s son… there are some things that Jewish people may not be aware of.

The reason I say that is because I've watched tons and tons of video testimonies of Messianic Jews… Jewish believers in Jesus. And many of them say the same thing, they say no one ever told me that!

I think there are a few reasons for that… but without getting into all that, I’ll just say that based on the numerous testimonies I've heard of Messianic Jews, there were certain things about Jesus / Christianity that they didn't realize… that they hadn’t heard from their rabbi, or their Jewish community.

I want to share this video testimony below, because in response to what you said about Jewish people already knowing about Jesus.... this is an example of someone who had heard of Jesus of course, but hadn't heard some passages from the New Testament....and one of them (which you will see in this testimony, if you watch it) moved her profoundly, and she had a revelation, which was one of the things that led to her changing her mind and coming to Christ.

I hope you watch it, even if you disagree, it's a beautiful testimony.

 

[CarlinAnnArbor]

Sure sounds like you don’t like Jews

Give it a rest.

sure sounds like you dont like Christians

See how that works?

I hate wwinners.

The fact is, most Jews believe that relationship is ONLY for the Jew and God.

Gentiles are like ANIMALS in the view of jews. You believe "we" have no special relationship with God in the afterlife. "You" view Gentiles with contempt. You've expressed that contempt here with your whine.

 

[Lisa558]

Give it a rest.

sure sounds like you dont like Christians

See how that works?

I hate wwinners.

The fact is, most Jews believe that relationship is ONLY for the Jew and God.

Gentiles are like ANIMALS in the view of jews. You believe "we" have no special relationship with God in the afterlife. "You" view Gentiles with contempt. You've expressed that contempt here with your whine.

Thanks for demonstrating another Christian‘s antisemitism. Sure sounds like you don’t like Jews. your contempt for Jews is beyond blatant, and it tells me the type of nonsense you’ve been brainwashed to believe about us

And, due to your hate for Jews, you have it the opposite. ALL good people, of whatever religion, according to Jews, have a share in the World to Come. One doesn’t have to be Jewish.

But arrogant, rude people like you think you have to be Christian. I am more likely to see Heaven than an antisemite like yourself.

 

[CarlinAnnArbor]

Thanks for demonstrating another Christian‘s antisemitism. Sure sounds like you don’t like Jews. your contempt for Jews is beyond blatant, and it tells me the type of nonsense you’ve been brainwashed to believe about us

And, due to your hate for Jews, you have it the opposite. ALL good people, of whatever religion, according to Jews, have a share in the World to Come. One doesn’t have to be Jewish.

But arrogant, rude people like you think you have to be Christian. I am more likely to see Heaven than an antisemite like yourself.

Your time of REPENTANCE will come.

You should reexamine why you're okay with not liking Christians while you accuse others of "not liking Jews."

I follow the Bible. Not your rabbis from the Talmud. No, I don't like their influence from paganism.

In many ways your religion is contemptible. I Jewish business owner is fine with allowing his "servants" WORK ON GOD'S SABBATH. I find that contemptible. 5he Sabbath was made for ALL Mankind

I "LIKE" decent people of any race or religion. We are told to "work out our own salvation with fear and trembling."

I don't have to agree with you to "like" or "dislike" you.

Like I said, I really don't care enough to like or dislike you

There is so much NONSENSE and HUMAN REASONING here. It is NOT Scriptural

https://www.chabad.org/library/article_cdo/aid/4848230/jewish/Heaven-and-the-Afterlife.htm

 

[Lisa558]

Your time of REPENTANCE will come.

You should reexamine why you're okay with not liking Christians while you accuse others of "not liking Jews."

I follow the Bible. Not your rabbis from the Talmud. No, I don't like their influence from paganism.

In many ways your religion is contemptible. I Jewish business owner is fine with allowing his "servants" WORK ON GOD'S SABBATH. I find that contemptible. 5he Sabbath was made for ALL Mankind

I "LIKE" decent people of any race or religion. We are told to "work out our own salvation with fear and trembling."

I don't have to agree with you to "like" or "dislike" you.

Like I said, I really don't care enough to like or dislike you

There is so much NONSENSE and HUMAN REASONING here. It is NOT Scriptural

https://www.chabad.org/library/article_cdo/aid/4848230/jewish/Heaven-and-the-Afterlife.htm

You, a “Christian”, just said my religion is contemptible. I put disgusting antisemites like you on ignore. So adios.

 

[CarlinAnnArbor]

But arrogant, rude people like you think you have to be Christian. I am more likely to see Heaven than an antisemite like yourself.

Can you point out ANY post of mine that ANYONE would call antisemitic? Not agreeing with you on religion or your whining doesn't make me antisemitic. It means I DISAGREE.

 

[CarlinAnnArbor]

You, a “Christian”, just said my religion is contemptible. I put disgusting antisemites like you on ignore. So adios.

And suddenly, a Sabbath keeping, Holy Day observing Christian is an "antisemite"

 

[CarlinAnnArbor]

This too is contemptible. I do not blame ALL jews for this rabbis words. Only THIS Rabbi and those who follow this contemptible man

This is what Jesus came to correct

---

“Gentile souls are of a completely different and inferior order. They are totally evil, with no redeeming qualities whatsoever . . . their material abundance derives from supernal refuse. Indeed, they themselves derive from refuse, which is why they are more numerous than the Jews. . .” Abraham Foxbrunner. Habad: The Hasidism of Schneur Zalman of Lyady. Northvale NJ: Jason Aronson Inc., 1983. p. 108-109.