Diversity declining in baseball

[rightwinger]

I think it comes down to a few things:
(1) There are fewer and fewer field to play baseball, in the inner cities.
(2) Baseball equipment is more expensive than baseball.
(3) Basketball courts are more plentiful, you can shoot hoops by yourself and let's face it, when your a kids it's more fun.
(4) Baseball is boring. I can't get my kid to even watch baseball, much less play it. He likes hockey and basketball a ton more.
(5) Yep it has to go there: The break up of the African American family has lead to the black kid losing that tossing the ball around with his father.

There are many factors to the decline in baseball, but racism isn't one of them.

You never see kids playing pickup baseball games anymore. There are no sandlots where kids can just improvise a game and make up rules. We used to change the rules based on the field and how many kids we have. If you didn't have a glove you borrowed one from the team that was up to bat

Now baseball is run by parents. Uniforms, umpires, $300 aluminum bats, regulation fields, insurance and a trophy for everyone

Aluminum bats are the antichrist.

I hate the sound

 

[Pogo]

Tom Haudricourt - Diversity in baseball declining


No doubt I will be seeing shortly an article that there aren't enough asians and latin americans in the NBA, right?

Oh wait, liberals are racist hypocrites. My bad. Forgot.

I think it comes down to a few things:
(1) There are fewer and fewer field to play baseball, in the inner cities.
(2) Baseball equipment is more expensive than baseball.
(3) Basketball courts are more plentiful, you can shoot hoops by yourself and let's face it, when your a kids it's more fun.
(4) Baseball is boring. I can't get my kid to even watch baseball, much less play it. He likes hockey and basketball a ton more.
(5) Yep it has to go there: The break up of the African American family has lead to the black kid losing that tossing the ball around with his father.

There are many factors to the decline in baseball, but racism isn't one of them.

I concur with the conclusion absolutely, but I'm not buying #5. My Dad was distant and never even taught me the game. I learned it entirely on my own, and I love it. So I can't buy #4 either. Baseball is both poetry and drama. It's individualism and teamwork at the same time. And no sport is more dramatic. If the last sentence is a challenge, explain to me anything positive about the supreme anticlimax of a quarterback taking a knee to let the clock run out.

 

[candycorn]

I always was curious how Glavine and Maddux seemed to get an extra 3-6 inches off the plate and someone like Dontrelle Willis with talent galore struggled.

A lot goes into it to be sure but if you want to go conspiracy theory; just about the only position on the diamond where the ump can make you or break you is pitcher and there seem to be a lot fewer blacks on the mound than whites.

Not calling it racist but that is the topic at hand.

Guess you never saw this guy pitch...

Most Intimidating Pitchers Of All Time - SI.com
1) Bob Gibson

Again, I used the word "seems" to indicate that there is no evidence of it...it just struck me as strange. But since you brought it up, I would like to know how many times he faced off against another African American. Probably not that often...if my gut is right.

Again, lots and lots go into this. The 300 dollar bats, "system" kids, etc... The "love of the game" isn't a factor in the equation.

Why the love isn't there is a complex thing of course in and of itself. I happen to think that the democratization of information that Thomas Friedman discussed in "The Lexus and the Olive Tree" has proliferated to different sports. Kids can now make a good living playing MLS (and if they're good enough EPL), Canadian Football, umpiring, sports agency, coaching throughout the ranks, Title IX has opened the door for women to experience these things as well on the athletic fields, etc... Baseball is a victim of the counterculture as much as anything else.

But since the thread was about diversity...I commented on something that struck me as odd. Your pointing out one of the most dominant pitchers of all time who has very few contemporaries of the same race is likely a re-enforcement of it.

I can show you pictures of Ichiro and make the case that the Japanese are well represented then, right?

 

[candycorn]

Tom Haudricourt - Diversity in baseball declining


No doubt I will be seeing shortly an article that there aren't enough asians and latin americans in the NBA, right?

Oh wait, liberals are racist hypocrites. My bad. Forgot.

I think it comes down to a few things:
(1) There are fewer and fewer field to play baseball, in the inner cities.
(2) Baseball equipment is more expensive than baseball.
(3) Basketball courts are more plentiful, you can shoot hoops by yourself and let's face it, when your a kids it's more fun.
(4) Baseball is boring. I can't get my kid to even watch baseball, much less play it. He likes hockey and basketball a ton more.
(5) Yep it has to go there: The break up of the African American family has lead to the black kid losing that tossing the ball around with his father.

There are many factors to the decline in baseball, but racism isn't one of them.

You never see kids playing pickup baseball games anymore. There are no sandlots where kids can just improvise a game and make up rules. We used to change the rules based on the field and how many kids we have. If you didn't have a glove you borrowed one from the team that was up to bat

Now baseball is run by parents. Uniforms, umpires, $300 aluminum bats, regulation fields, insurance and a trophy for everyone

All good points.

Going to The Cheesecake Factory!

 

[Fang]

Before doing some diversity study Bud Selig should look at putting a salary cap in place.

 

[Unkotare]

I can show you pictures of Ichiro and make the case that the Japanese are well represented then, right?

Ichiro is one of the greatest to ever play the game.

 

[Bfgrn]

I always was curious how Glavine and Maddux seemed to get an extra 3-6 inches off the plate and someone like Dontrelle Willis with talent galore struggled.

A lot goes into it to be sure but if you want to go conspiracy theory; just about the only position on the diamond where the ump can make you or break you is pitcher and there seem to be a lot fewer blacks on the mound than whites.

Not calling it racist but that is the topic at hand.

Guess you never saw this guy pitch...

Most Intimidating Pitchers Of All Time - SI.com
1) Bob Gibson

Again, I used the word "seems" to indicate that there is no evidence of it...it just struck me as strange. But since you brought it up, I would like to know how many times he faced off against another African American. Probably not that often...if my gut is right.

Again, lots and lots go into this. The 300 dollar bats, "system" kids, etc... The "love of the game" isn't a factor in the equation.

Why the love isn't there is a complex thing of course in and of itself. I happen to think that the democratization of information that Thomas Friedman discussed in "The Lexus and the Olive Tree" has proliferated to different sports. Kids can now make a good living playing MLS (and if they're good enough EPL), Canadian Football, umpiring, sports agency, coaching throughout the ranks, Title IX has opened the door for women to experience these things as well on the athletic fields, etc... Baseball is a victim of the counterculture as much as anything else.

But since the thread was about diversity...I commented on something that struck me as odd. Your pointing out one of the most dominant pitchers of all time who has very few contemporaries of the same race is likely a re-enforcement of it.

I can show you pictures of Ichiro and make the case that the Japanese are well represented then, right?

They don't issue a uniform based on race, color or creed. There is only one criteria.

There is no doubt other sports have taken athletes away from baseball. But when I was growing up, there was really only one sport...Baseball. I remember hearing Larry Merchant, who was born in Brooklyn, tell the story of coming home from school one day and finding his mother at the kitchen sink doing dishes and crying. He asked "what's wrong mom?", she turned to him and said in a whispering voice..."Lou Gehrig died, Lou Gehrig died". Baseball was the undisputed national pastime.

Today, other sports like football and basketball have a distinct advantage at the college level. College football and basketball and extremely well funded and covered by the media. College baseball players play in front of few fans with little funding.

In my mind baseball will always be the national pastime. Not because it is the most popular, but because when you scan the crowd at a baseball game, it IS America. Grandmothers, fathers, sons, and daughters. Nuns, priests, housewives and cousins. It is not gangs of testosterone cowboys looking for a fight.

I am a big football fan, but football is a sport that engulfs a young man and spends him. He leaves the games after a few years as an old man whose life expectancy is shortened.

Baseball takes a grown man and transforms him into a kid again. A kid for life. Baseball's a game. It is ultimately fair.

And I often think about the rich diversity of characters the game fully accepts, celebrates and nurtures; the Casey Stengels, the Yogi Berras and the Bob Bob Ueckers. They are never mocked, they are revered.

The decline of baseball and the decline of our society are not a coincidence. Baseball is eternal optimism, celebrating our differences and competing to win, but not to destroy.

 

[candycorn]

Guess you never saw this guy pitch...

Most Intimidating Pitchers Of All Time - SI.com
1) Bob Gibson

Again, I used the word "seems" to indicate that there is no evidence of it...it just struck me as strange. But since you brought it up, I would like to know how many times he faced off against another African American. Probably not that often...if my gut is right.

Again, lots and lots go into this. The 300 dollar bats, "system" kids, etc... The "love of the game" isn't a factor in the equation.

Why the love isn't there is a complex thing of course in and of itself. I happen to think that the democratization of information that Thomas Friedman discussed in "The Lexus and the Olive Tree" has proliferated to different sports. Kids can now make a good living playing MLS (and if they're good enough EPL), Canadian Football, umpiring, sports agency, coaching throughout the ranks, Title IX has opened the door for women to experience these things as well on the athletic fields, etc... Baseball is a victim of the counterculture as much as anything else.

But since the thread was about diversity...I commented on something that struck me as odd. Your pointing out one of the most dominant pitchers of all time who has very few contemporaries of the same race is likely a re-enforcement of it.

I can show you pictures of Ichiro and make the case that the Japanese are well represented then, right?

They don't issue a uniform based on race, color or creed. There is only one criteria.

There is no doubt other sports have taken athletes away from baseball. But when I was growing up, there was really only one sport...Baseball. I remember hearing Larry Merchant, who was born in Brooklyn, tell the story of coming home from school one day and finding his mother at the kitchen sink doing dishes and crying. He asked "what's wrong mom?", she turned to him and said in a whispering voice..."Lou Gehrig died, Lou Gehrig died". Baseball was the undisputed national pastime.

Today, other sports like football and basketball have a distinct advantage at the college level. College football and basketball and extremely well funded and covered by the media. College baseball players play in front of few fans with little funding.

In my mind baseball will always be the national pastime. Not because it is the most popular, but because when you scan the crowd at a baseball game, it IS America. Grandmothers, fathers, sons, and daughters. Nuns, priests, housewives and cousins. It is not gangs of testosterone cowboys looking for a fight.

I am a big football fan, but football is a sport that engulfs a young man and spends him. He leaves the games after a few years as an old man whose life expectancy is shortened.

Baseball takes a grown man and transforms him into a kid again. A kid for life. Baseball's a game. It is ultimately fair.

And I often think about the rich diversity of characters the game fully accepts, celebrates and nurtures; the Casey Stengels, the Yogi Berras and the Bob Bob Ueckers. They are never mocked, they are revered.

The decline of baseball and the decline of our society are not a coincidence. Baseball is eternal optimism, celebrating our differences and competing to win, but not to destroy.

I can agree with a lot of t hat. Except for the truth in "only one criteria"....if only that were so.

 

[Pogo]

I can show you pictures of Ichiro and make the case that the Japanese are well represented then, right?

Ichiro is one of the greatest to ever play the game.

And he used to be a pitcher.

 

[Pogo]

I always was curious how Glavine and Maddux seemed to get an extra 3-6 inches off the plate and someone like Dontrelle Willis with talent galore struggled.

A lot goes into it to be sure but if you want to go conspiracy theory; just about the only position on the diamond where the ump can make you or break you is pitcher and there seem to be a lot fewer blacks on the mound than whites.

Not calling it racist but that is the topic at hand.

Guess you never saw this guy pitch...

Most Intimidating Pitchers Of All Time - SI.com
1) Bob Gibson

Again, I used the word "seems" to indicate that there is no evidence of it...it just struck me as strange. But since you brought it up, I would like to know how many times he faced off against another African American. Probably not that often...if my gut is right.

That doesn't make any sense. The starting lineup is the starting lineup. No team changes their lineup because the opposing pitcher is black. So Bob Gibson would have faced exactly the same number of African American batters as any other pitcher. There isn't even a way around that.

 

[candycorn]

Guess you never saw this guy pitch...

Most Intimidating Pitchers Of All Time - SI.com
1) Bob Gibson

Again, I used the word "seems" to indicate that there is no evidence of it...it just struck me as strange. But since you brought it up, I would like to know how many times he faced off against another African American. Probably not that often...if my gut is right.

That doesn't make any sense. The starting lineup is the starting lineup. No team changes their lineup because the opposing pitcher is black. So Bob Gibson would have faced exactly the same number of African American batters as any other pitcher. There isn't even a way around that.

Sorry...I meant another African American pitcher. My bad.

 

[Pogo]

This is one of my favorite play videos...

Baseball Video Highlights & Clips | PHI@NYM: Valdez's strong throw gets the out at first - Video | MLB.com: Multimedia

It's a great play but notice what else is going on: a white pitcher to a Japanese batter, who hits to a Latino shortstop who throws to the black first baseman. Hard to watch that and claim there's "racism" in baseball, sorry.

 

[candycorn]

This is one of my favorite play videos...

Baseball Video Highlights & Clips | PHI@NYM: Valdez's strong throw gets the out at first - Video | MLB.com: Multimedia

Not just becuase it's a great play but the four guys: a white pitcher to a Japanese batter, who hits to a Latino shortstop who throws to the black first baseman. Hard to watch that and claim there's "racism" in baseball, sorry.

Good point.

All I'm saying is this:

If you can hit the ball a long way and it goes over the fence, you have a home run. Umpires can't take that away.
If you beat the ball to first base, 99.5% of the time, you're safe. Umpires can't take that away.
If you drop the ball in the outfield, it's an error and umpires don't call the batter out.

But when you're a pitcher, borderline calls that you're not getting force you to lob the ball over the plate. If the ball is too high, you have to toss it lower...if the ball is judged to be too low, you have to throw it higher. This is a judgment call made by an umpire hundreds of times a game.


Maddux and Glavine got 3-6 inches outside the plate consistently.
Hundreds of white pitchers didn't get the calls Glavine and Maddux got either, I know.

 

[Bfgrn]

Again, I used the word "seems" to indicate that there is no evidence of it...it just struck me as strange. But since you brought it up, I would like to know how many times he faced off against another African American. Probably not that often...if my gut is right.

Again, lots and lots go into this. The 300 dollar bats, "system" kids, etc... The "love of the game" isn't a factor in the equation.

Why the love isn't there is a complex thing of course in and of itself. I happen to think that the democratization of information that Thomas Friedman discussed in "The Lexus and the Olive Tree" has proliferated to different sports. Kids can now make a good living playing MLS (and if they're good enough EPL), Canadian Football, umpiring, sports agency, coaching throughout the ranks, Title IX has opened the door for women to experience these things as well on the athletic fields, etc... Baseball is a victim of the counterculture as much as anything else.

But since the thread was about diversity...I commented on something that struck me as odd. Your pointing out one of the most dominant pitchers of all time who has very few contemporaries of the same race is likely a re-enforcement of it.

I can show you pictures of Ichiro and make the case that the Japanese are well represented then, right?

They don't issue a uniform based on race, color or creed. There is only one criteria.

There is no doubt other sports have taken athletes away from baseball. But when I was growing up, there was really only one sport...Baseball. I remember hearing Larry Merchant, who was born in Brooklyn, tell the story of coming home from school one day and finding his mother at the kitchen sink doing dishes and crying. He asked "what's wrong mom?", she turned to him and said in a whispering voice..."Lou Gehrig died, Lou Gehrig died". Baseball was the undisputed national pastime.

Today, other sports like football and basketball have a distinct advantage at the college level. College football and basketball and extremely well funded and covered by the media. College baseball players play in front of few fans with little funding.

In my mind baseball will always be the national pastime. Not because it is the most popular, but because when you scan the crowd at a baseball game, it IS America. Grandmothers, fathers, sons, and daughters. Nuns, priests, housewives and cousins. It is not gangs of testosterone cowboys looking for a fight.

I am a big football fan, but football is a sport that engulfs a young man and spends him. He leaves the games after a few years as an old man whose life expectancy is shortened.

Baseball takes a grown man and transforms him into a kid again. A kid for life. Baseball's a game. It is ultimately fair.

And I often think about the rich diversity of characters the game fully accepts, celebrates and nurtures; the Casey Stengels, the Yogi Berras and the Bob Bob Ueckers. They are never mocked, they are revered.

The decline of baseball and the decline of our society are not a coincidence. Baseball is eternal optimism, celebrating our differences and competing to win, but not to destroy.

I can agree with a lot of t hat. Except for the truth in "only one criteria"....if only that were so.

I don't know where you get this idea from. Baseball is really open to anyone who can play. It you are a 5 tool players, it doesn't matter what color your skin is, what country you come from or even what planet you are from.

 

[Bfgrn]

This is one of my favorite play videos...

Baseball Video Highlights & Clips | PHI@NYM: Valdez's strong throw gets the out at first - Video | MLB.com: Multimedia

Not just becuase it's a great play but the four guys: a white pitcher to a Japanese batter, who hits to a Latino shortstop who throws to the black first baseman. Hard to watch that and claim there's "racism" in baseball, sorry.

Good point.

All I'm saying is this:

If you can hit the ball a long way and it goes over the fence, you have a home run. Umpires can't take that away.
If you beat the ball to first base, 99.5% of the time, you're safe. Umpires can't take that away.
If you drop the ball in the outfield, it's an error and umpires don't call the batter out.

But when you're a pitcher, borderline calls that you're not getting force you to lob the ball over the plate. If the ball is too high, you have to toss it lower...if the ball is judged to be too low, you have to throw it higher. This is a judgment call made by an umpire hundreds of times a game.


Maddux and Glavine got 3-6 inches outside the plate consistently.
Hundreds of white pitchers didn't get the calls Glavine and Maddux got either, I know.

Mariano Rivera gets 3-6 inches outside the plate consistently. How do you explain that?

 

[candycorn]

This is one of my favorite play videos...

Baseball Video Highlights & Clips | PHI@NYM: Valdez's strong throw gets the out at first - Video | MLB.com: Multimedia

Not just becuase it's a great play but the four guys: a white pitcher to a Japanese batter, who hits to a Latino shortstop who throws to the black first baseman. Hard to watch that and claim there's "racism" in baseball, sorry.

Good point.

All I'm saying is this:

If you can hit the ball a long way and it goes over the fence, you have a home run. Umpires can't take that away.
If you beat the ball to first base, 99.5% of the time, you're safe. Umpires can't take that away.
If you drop the ball in the outfield, it's an error and umpires don't call the batter out.

But when you're a pitcher, borderline calls that you're not getting force you to lob the ball over the plate. If the ball is too high, you have to toss it lower...if the ball is judged to be too low, you have to throw it higher. This is a judgment call made by an umpire hundreds of times a game.


Maddux and Glavine got 3-6 inches outside the plate consistently.
Hundreds of white pitchers didn't get the calls Glavine and Maddux got either, I know.

Mariano Rivera gets 3-6 inches outside the plate consistently. How do you explain that?

Reputation plays a big role I'm sure.
He gets it for about 12 pitches an outing.
Hardly the same thing but I get your point.

Just out of curiosity...
Does it strike you that there are just as many black pitchers as there are white pitchers?
These are tonight's Starters:

 

[Bfgrn]

Good point.

All I'm saying is this:

If you can hit the ball a long way and it goes over the fence, you have a home run. Umpires can't take that away.
If you beat the ball to first base, 99.5% of the time, you're safe. Umpires can't take that away.
If you drop the ball in the outfield, it's an error and umpires don't call the batter out.

But when you're a pitcher, borderline calls that you're not getting force you to lob the ball over the plate. If the ball is too high, you have to toss it lower...if the ball is judged to be too low, you have to throw it higher. This is a judgment call made by an umpire hundreds of times a game.


Maddux and Glavine got 3-6 inches outside the plate consistently.
Hundreds of white pitchers didn't get the calls Glavine and Maddux got either, I know.

Mariano Rivera gets 3-6 inches outside the plate consistently. How do you explain that?

Reputation plays a big role I'm sure.
He gets it for about 12 pitches an outing.
Hardly the same thing but I get your point.

Just out of curiosity...
Does it strike you that there are just as many black pitchers as there are white pitchers?
These are tonight's Starters:

I don't follow your thinking. There is no umpire conspiracy. Pitchers and hitters get to know each umpire and how he calls balls and strikes. There is little complaint if his strike zone is consistent and the same for both teams.

 

[candycorn]

Mariano Rivera gets 3-6 inches outside the plate consistently. How do you explain that?

Reputation plays a big role I'm sure.
He gets it for about 12 pitches an outing.
Hardly the same thing but I get your point.

Just out of curiosity...
Does it strike you that there are just as many black pitchers as there are white pitchers?
These are tonight's Starters:

I don't follow your thinking. There is no umpire conspiracy. Pitchers and hitters get to know each umpire and how he calls balls and strikes. There is little complaint if his strike zone is consistent and the same for both teams.

Okay...seems like there are fewer black pitchers than there are at other positions in baseball. Just pointing out my observations. There are also a lot fewer black catchers too come to think of it.

 

[squeeze berry]

This is one of my favorite play videos...

Baseball Video Highlights & Clips | PHI@NYM: Valdez's strong throw gets the out at first - Video | MLB.com: Multimedia

Not just becuase it's a great play but the four guys: a white pitcher to a Japanese batter, who hits to a Latino shortstop who throws to the black first baseman. Hard to watch that and claim there's "racism" in baseball, sorry.

Good point.

All I'm saying is this:

If you can hit the ball a long way and it goes over the fence, you have a home run. Umpires can't take that away.
If you beat the ball to first base, 99.5% of the time, you're safe. Umpires can't take that away.
If you drop the ball in the outfield, it's an error and umpires don't call the batter out.

But when you're a pitcher, borderline calls that you're not getting force you to lob the ball over the plate. If the ball is too high, you have to toss it lower...if the ball is judged to be too low, you have to throw it higher. This is a judgment call made by an umpire hundreds of times a game.


Maddux and Glavine got 3-6 inches outside the plate consistently.
Hundreds of white pitchers didn't get the calls Glavine and Maddux got either, I know.

 

[rightwinger]

This is one of my favorite play videos...

Baseball Video Highlights & Clips | PHI@NYM: Valdez's strong throw gets the out at first - Video | MLB.com: Multimedia

Not just becuase it's a great play but the four guys: a white pitcher to a Japanese batter, who hits to a Latino shortstop who throws to the black first baseman. Hard to watch that and claim there's "racism" in baseball, sorry.

Good point.

All I'm saying is this:

If you can hit the ball a long way and it goes over the fence, you have a home run. Umpires can't take that away.
If you beat the ball to first base, 99.5% of the time, you're safe. Umpires can't take that away.
If you drop the ball in the outfield, it's an error and umpires don't call the batter out.

But when you're a pitcher, borderline calls that you're not getting force you to lob the ball over the plate. If the ball is too high, you have to toss it lower...if the ball is judged to be too low, you have to throw it higher. This is a judgment call made by an umpire hundreds of times a game.


Maddux and Glavine got 3-6 inches outside the plate consistently.
Hundreds of white pitchers didn't get the calls Glavine and Maddux got either, I know.

Mariano Rivera gets 3-6 inches outside the plate consistently. How do you explain that?

Many times it's the movement on the pitch and the perception it gives umpires. Great pitchers make the balls look like strikes and the strikes look like balls.