Discriminating against criminals is now illegal

[Immanuel]

Every day it is something new with these asses.

I am honestly getting to the point where I am starting to believe we need to totally flush Washington DC and start all over again.

What the heck has taken you so long?

Immie

 

[Immanuel]

Ignoring the black angle, it's about time the discrimination against people who have been to prison ends. If someone does their time, they've paid their debt to society and the shit needs to end.

No wonder the recidivism rates are so high.

So you think a bank should have to hire someone who got out of prison for embezzlement three months ago, regardless of their qualifications, or the qualifications of other applicants, or the bank is discriminating against the embezzler?

Sorry, I manage an accounting department and am responsible for the cash handling at my company. I will not hire someone who is guilty of embezzlement. I am responsible for the cash. I would have to spend extra hours making sure nothing unethical was taking place and if the embezzler is smart they might find a way to incriminate me. I am not hiring someone I cannot trust.

Immie

 

[Immanuel]

If someone did not want to be discriminated against for being a convicted felon they could always decide not to be a criminal in the first place.

That assumes everyone convicted is guilty of the crime they were accused of which is not always the case.

Immie

 

[Flopper]

If someone did not want to be discriminated against for being a convicted felon they could always decide not to be a criminal in the first place.

That assumes everyone convicted is guilty of the crime they were accused of which is not always the case.

Immie

Most people assume that those convicted of felonies were tried and found guilty by a jury of their peers. Not True. About 95 percent of all felony convictions in the United States are the result of plea bargains. Plea bargains are just a way of increasing conviction rates for the prosecution and reducing the load on the court system.

The way plea bargains were suppose to work and the way they actually work are quite different. The idea of the plea bargain was to keep cases of obvious guilt out of court by offering less jail time to the defendant if he pleads guilty to a lessor charge. In reality, it works quite different. The defendant is threatened with a number of charges that would add up to a lot of jail time. Then he's offered less jail time if he pleads guilty to a lesser charge. The defendant, 95% of the time will go for the plea bargain rather going to trial with a public defender who spends most of his time negotiating plea deals rather actually going to court.

So when the prisoner says he's innocent of the crime he was convicted, he certainly may be telling the truth. In the eyes of the prisoner, the justice system is a sham and the likelihood that he will strike back is quite high. So when he's released in less than 3 years and he can't get a job, he feels justified in returning to crime.

Faqs | The Plea | FRONTLINE | PBS

 

[The Rabbi]

If someone did not want to be discriminated against for being a convicted felon they could always decide not to be a criminal in the first place.

That assumes everyone convicted is guilty of the crime they were accused of which is not always the case.

Immie

Most people assume that those convicted of felonies were tried and found guilty by a jury of their peers. Not True. About 95 percent of all felony convictions in the United States are the result of plea bargains. Plea bargains are just a way of increasing conviction rates for the prosecution and reducing the load on the court system.

The way plea bargains were suppose to work and the way they actually work are quite different. The idea of the plea bargain was to keep cases of obvious guilt out of court by offering less jail time to the defendant if he pleads guilty to a lessor charge. In reality, it works quite different. The defendant is threatened with a number of charges that would add up to a lot of jail time. Then he's offered less jail time if he pleads guilty to a lesser charge. The defendant, 95% of the time will go for the plea bargain rather going to trial with a public defender who spends most of his time negotiating plea deals rather actually going to court.

So when the prisoner says he's innocent of the crime he was convicted, he certainly may be telling the truth. In the eyes of the prisoner, the justice system is a sham and the likelihood that he will strike back is quite high. So when he's released in less than 3 years and he can't get a job, he feels justified in returning to crime.

Faqs | The Plea | FRONTLINE | PBS

They plead guilty to a lesser charge to avoid trial on the greater. Typically they do this because they are guilty as hell. Given how hard it is to arrest, try, convict and sentence someone in this country it is a lead pipe cinch that the person is guilty of a felony.

 

[Skull Pilot]

Sorry but I am NOT ever going to hire an ex-con and that's my choice just like being a scum bag criminal was their choice.

 

[Katzndogz]

If someone did not want to be discriminated against for being a convicted felon they could always decide not to be a criminal in the first place.

That assumes everyone convicted is guilty of the crime they were accused of which is not always the case.

Immie

Most people assume that those convicted of felonies were tried and found guilty by a jury of their peers. Not True. About 95 percent of all felony convictions in the United States are the result of plea bargains. Plea bargains are just a way of increasing conviction rates for the prosecution and reducing the load on the court system.

The way plea bargains were suppose to work and the way they actually work are quite different. The idea of the plea bargain was to keep cases of obvious guilt out of court by offering less jail time to the defendant if he pleads guilty to a lessor charge. In reality, it works quite different. The defendant is threatened with a number of charges that would add up to a lot of jail time. Then he's offered less jail time if he pleads guilty to a lesser charge. The defendant, 95% of the time will go for the plea bargain rather going to trial with a public defender who spends most of his time negotiating plea deals rather actually going to court.

So when the prisoner says he's innocent of the crime he was convicted, he certainly may be telling the truth. In the eyes of the prisoner, the justice system is a sham and the likelihood that he will strike back is quite high. So when he's released in less than 3 years and he can't get a job, he feels justified in returning to crime.

Faqs | The Plea | FRONTLINE | PBS

Most plea bargains occur not because the person is innocent, but because he pleads guilty to a lesser offense rather than take a chance on a conviction with a harsher sentence. Most of the time, those who plead guilty to a lesser offense are actually guilty of the offense they were originally charged with. They don't feel justified in committing more crimes. They feel like they got away with the crime they committed.

 

[Sallow]

We've lost our minds at this point. A company is screening potential employees for criminal records because people with criminal records represent a liability. And the Obama Administration is now suing because, ta da, most of the people getting screened out are blacks.
EEOC sues over criminal background checks at Dollar General | Nashville City Paper

This has been a real problem in this country.

And it seems you folks have no interest in "reforming" anyone. Just keeping an underclass of "criminals" in a perpetual cycle of being in the justice system.

If ex-cons have no avenue of breaking the cycle..they will continue to re-offend.

A criminal record should not be a lifetime of disenfranchisement from society.

 

[The Rabbi]

We've lost our minds at this point. A company is screening potential employees for criminal records because people with criminal records represent a liability. And the Obama Administration is now suing because, ta da, most of the people getting screened out are blacks.
EEOC sues over criminal background checks at Dollar General | Nashville City Paper

This has been a real problem in this country.

And it seems you folks have no interest in "reforming" anyone. Just keeping an underclass of "criminals" in a perpetual cycle of being in the justice system.

If ex-cons have no avenue of breaking the cycle..they will continue to re-offend.

A criminal record should not be a lifetime of disenfranchisement from society.

The usual "society is to blame" excuse. There are millions of ex cons who have reformed themselves and gone straight with no trouble. One of them was on the Board of Smith&Wesson. Might still be for all I know.

 

[Sallow]

That assumes everyone convicted is guilty of the crime they were accused of which is not always the case.

Immie

Most people assume that those convicted of felonies were tried and found guilty by a jury of their peers. Not True. About 95 percent of all felony convictions in the United States are the result of plea bargains. Plea bargains are just a way of increasing conviction rates for the prosecution and reducing the load on the court system.

The way plea bargains were suppose to work and the way they actually work are quite different. The idea of the plea bargain was to keep cases of obvious guilt out of court by offering less jail time to the defendant if he pleads guilty to a lessor charge. In reality, it works quite different. The defendant is threatened with a number of charges that would add up to a lot of jail time. Then he's offered less jail time if he pleads guilty to a lesser charge. The defendant, 95% of the time will go for the plea bargain rather going to trial with a public defender who spends most of his time negotiating plea deals rather actually going to court.

So when the prisoner says he's innocent of the crime he was convicted, he certainly may be telling the truth. In the eyes of the prisoner, the justice system is a sham and the likelihood that he will strike back is quite high. So when he's released in less than 3 years and he can't get a job, he feels justified in returning to crime.

Faqs | The Plea | FRONTLINE | PBS

Most plea bargains occur not because the person is innocent, but because he pleads guilty to a lesser offense rather than take a chance on a conviction with a harsher sentence. Most of the time, those who plead guilty to a lesser offense are actually guilty of the offense they were originally charged with. They don't feel justified in committing more crimes. They feel like they got away with the crime they committed.

Well no.

Most of the time they don't have the time or money to spend on a lawyer that can adequately defend them.

So they get overworked public defenders who pressure them into taking a plea deal.

 

[The Rabbi]

Most people assume that those convicted of felonies were tried and found guilty by a jury of their peers. Not True. About 95 percent of all felony convictions in the United States are the result of plea bargains. Plea bargains are just a way of increasing conviction rates for the prosecution and reducing the load on the court system.

The way plea bargains were suppose to work and the way they actually work are quite different. The idea of the plea bargain was to keep cases of obvious guilt out of court by offering less jail time to the defendant if he pleads guilty to a lessor charge. In reality, it works quite different. The defendant is threatened with a number of charges that would add up to a lot of jail time. Then he's offered less jail time if he pleads guilty to a lesser charge. The defendant, 95% of the time will go for the plea bargain rather going to trial with a public defender who spends most of his time negotiating plea deals rather actually going to court.

So when the prisoner says he's innocent of the crime he was convicted, he certainly may be telling the truth. In the eyes of the prisoner, the justice system is a sham and the likelihood that he will strike back is quite high. So when he's released in less than 3 years and he can't get a job, he feels justified in returning to crime.

Faqs | The Plea | FRONTLINE | PBS

Most plea bargains occur not because the person is innocent, but because he pleads guilty to a lesser offense rather than take a chance on a conviction with a harsher sentence. Most of the time, those who plead guilty to a lesser offense are actually guilty of the offense they were originally charged with. They don't feel justified in committing more crimes. They feel like they got away with the crime they committed.

Well no.

Most of the time they don't have the time or money to spend on a lawyer that can adequately defend them.

So they get overworked public defenders who pressure them into taking a plea deal.

Link?

 

[Katzndogz]

If someone did not want to be discriminated against for being a convicted felon they could always decide not to be a criminal in the first place.

That assumes everyone convicted is guilty of the crime they were accused of which is not always the case.

Immie

99% of the time they are guilty of worse crimes than the one they were convicted of.

 

[Immanuel]

That assumes everyone convicted is guilty of the crime they were accused of which is not always the case.

Immie

Most people assume that those convicted of felonies were tried and found guilty by a jury of their peers. Not True. About 95 percent of all felony convictions in the United States are the result of plea bargains. Plea bargains are just a way of increasing conviction rates for the prosecution and reducing the load on the court system.

The way plea bargains were suppose to work and the way they actually work are quite different. The idea of the plea bargain was to keep cases of obvious guilt out of court by offering less jail time to the defendant if he pleads guilty to a lessor charge. In reality, it works quite different. The defendant is threatened with a number of charges that would add up to a lot of jail time. Then he's offered less jail time if he pleads guilty to a lesser charge. The defendant, 95% of the time will go for the plea bargain rather going to trial with a public defender who spends most of his time negotiating plea deals rather actually going to court.

So when the prisoner says he's innocent of the crime he was convicted, he certainly may be telling the truth. In the eyes of the prisoner, the justice system is a sham and the likelihood that he will strike back is quite high. So when he's released in less than 3 years and he can't get a job, he feels justified in returning to crime.

Faqs | The Plea | FRONTLINE | PBS

They plead guilty to a lesser charge to avoid trial on the greater. Typically they do this because they are guilty as hell. Given how hard it is to arrest, try, convict and sentence someone in this country it is a lead pipe cinch that the person is guilty of a felony.

It also means that if the prosecutor can load on enough charges, eventually the innocent defendant will have to succumb to the weight of the charges and the risk of defense and take the plea thus padding the conviction rate of the prosecutor.

Immie

 

[Immanuel]

Most plea bargains occur not because the person is innocent, but because he pleads guilty to a lesser offense rather than take a chance on a conviction with a harsher sentence. Most of the time, those who plead guilty to a lesser offense are actually guilty of the offense they were originally charged with. They don't feel justified in committing more crimes. They feel like they got away with the crime they committed.

Well no.

Most of the time they don't have the time or money to spend on a lawyer that can adequately defend them.

So they get overworked public defenders who pressure them into taking a plea deal.

Link?

Actually the original claim was Katz' and it is therefore his burden to prove first followed by Sallow's rebuttal.

Immie

 

[Immanuel]

If someone did not want to be discriminated against for being a convicted felon they could always decide not to be a criminal in the first place.

That assumes everyone convicted is guilty of the crime they were accused of which is not always the case.

Immie

99% of the time they are guilty of worse crimes than the one they were convicted of.

Ever been accused of a crime you did not commit?

Your statement gives no comfort to those of us who have. Nor do I buy your percentage. I would agree with a statement such as "most of the time", but no way do I think it is anywhere near 99%.

Immie

 

[The Rabbi]

Most people assume that those convicted of felonies were tried and found guilty by a jury of their peers. Not True. About 95 percent of all felony convictions in the United States are the result of plea bargains. Plea bargains are just a way of increasing conviction rates for the prosecution and reducing the load on the court system.

The way plea bargains were suppose to work and the way they actually work are quite different. The idea of the plea bargain was to keep cases of obvious guilt out of court by offering less jail time to the defendant if he pleads guilty to a lessor charge. In reality, it works quite different. The defendant is threatened with a number of charges that would add up to a lot of jail time. Then he's offered less jail time if he pleads guilty to a lesser charge. The defendant, 95% of the time will go for the plea bargain rather going to trial with a public defender who spends most of his time negotiating plea deals rather actually going to court.

So when the prisoner says he's innocent of the crime he was convicted, he certainly may be telling the truth. In the eyes of the prisoner, the justice system is a sham and the likelihood that he will strike back is quite high. So when he's released in less than 3 years and he can't get a job, he feels justified in returning to crime.

Faqs | The Plea | FRONTLINE | PBS

They plead guilty to a lesser charge to avoid trial on the greater. Typically they do this because they are guilty as hell. Given how hard it is to arrest, try, convict and sentence someone in this country it is a lead pipe cinch that the person is guilty of a felony.

It also means that if the prosecutor can load on enough charges, eventually the innocent defendant will have to succumb to the weight of the charges and the risk of defense and take the plea thus padding the conviction rate of the prosecutor.

Immie

Not really. The charges usually stem from one incident. Either the guy is innocent or he actually did the crime. In almost all cases he actually did the crime, and therefore guilty of something.

 

[Katzndogz]

Taking a plea does not pad the conviction rate of the prosecutor. Only a conviction can do that. Convictions mean a trial. Pleas do reduce overcrowding on a court calendar. When a plea deal is reached, both sides accept that the defendant has committed worse crimes than the one they plead to. They just agreed to something that would get this dangerous scumbag off the streets for at least a little while. Everyone comes out a winner. The criminal feels like he got away with murder when it's plead down to manslaughter, the prosecutor closes the file and the defense attorney feels like he got his client off. Which he did.

When a prosecutor wants to pad his or her resume with convictions they don't plead. They take everything to trial. Defense attorneys can tell which prosecutor is up for promotion. They won't deal on anything.

It is popular to think that the prisons are filled with innocent people who were guilty of nothing more than walking down the street. That's not true. The prisons are filled with unbelievably bad people.

 

[Immanuel]

They plead guilty to a lesser charge to avoid trial on the greater. Typically they do this because they are guilty as hell. Given how hard it is to arrest, try, convict and sentence someone in this country it is a lead pipe cinch that the person is guilty of a felony.

It also means that if the prosecutor can load on enough charges, eventually the innocent defendant will have to succumb to the weight of the charges and the risk of defense and take the plea thus padding the conviction rate of the prosecutor.

Immie

Not really. The charges usually stem from one incident. Either the guy is innocent or he actually did the crime. In almost all cases he actually did the crime, and therefore guilty of something.

Again, that is of little comfort to those of us who were accused of crimes we did not commit. You are in fact treated as if you are guilty until you prove your innocence.

Immie

 

[The Rabbi]

It also means that if the prosecutor can load on enough charges, eventually the innocent defendant will have to succumb to the weight of the charges and the risk of defense and take the plea thus padding the conviction rate of the prosecutor.

Immie

Not really. The charges usually stem from one incident. Either the guy is innocent or he actually did the crime. In almost all cases he actually did the crime, and therefore guilty of something.

Again, that is of little comfort to those of us who were accused of crimes we did not commit. You are in fact treated as if you are guilty until you prove your innocence.

Immie

Aha. Nogeia l'davar.

 

[Katzndogz]

That assumes everyone convicted is guilty of the crime they were accused of which is not always the case.

Immie

99% of the time they are guilty of worse crimes than the one they were convicted of.

Ever been accused of a crime you did not commit?

Your statement gives no comfort to those of us who have. Nor do I buy your percentage. I would agree with a statement such as "most of the time", but no way do I think it is anywhere near 99%.

Immie

The man who carjacked me wanted to plead guilty to a crime he did not commit. The defense attorney and prosecutor wanted the jacker to plead guilty to simple car theft. A crime he did not commit. Rather than armed carjacking, a crime he did commit. Had I not raised such a stink, the scum would have gone around saying that he was no car thief. He was innocent. Had I not pressed so hard to take it to trial, that's exactly what would have happened.