Demographic history of Palestine

[docmauser1]

I this graphic really says all one needs to know about poulation development in the Levant. ...

These statistics may or may not be true (most cannot be proven in any event and they certainly are subject to debate and are also meaningless without clear definitions of which territories are involved and how the population is classified). But all of this is pretty academic because the relevance of this for the current situation is exactly zero.

Bravissimo!

 

[Saigon]

Are you fucking blind? It said Govt of Britannic Majesty. Not Arabic majesty. Not Palestinic govt of Islamic filthisty.

Now it can't even read what it posts.

Already told you the Brits sided with the Arabs at first.

Hilarious.

Again, you seem to not understand what has been posted.

You claim the British "owned" Palestine.

What I have posted shows that the terms of the mandate were not ownership, but were designed to spephard the region towards statehood and the creation of a Jewish homeland.

I realise that you get very bitter and angry on these threads, but if you struggle to understand what is posted, that is hardly my fault.

 

[Artevelde]

Artevelde -

I think it is best to view these statistics as being indicative of trends, rather than being precise right down to the last village or household, but they show a pattern which every major historical book I have read confirms.

There is really no question at all that Jews never lived in many of what are now the major Palestinian claims - Nalbus, Ramallah, Jenin etc.

This is vital in determing a lasting peace and fair borders.

I have never seen the point in going back to 500BC to determine who owns what land, but who lived on what land from the time of the first major Aliyah in 1899 is absolutely crucial.

They are indicative of nothing. It is also a-historical to equate muslims with Arabs or Palestinians. These statistics are frankly pretty worthless.

The idea that such things should have any bearing on how the situation should be resolved in the present day is worse than ludicrous. The idea of wanting to go back to 1899 is an appeal to massive bloodshed. And why should we do this only in the Holy Land? Shall we go back to the population settlements and borders of 1899 in Europe too?

 

[Artevelde]

I this graphic really says all one needs to know about poulation development in the Levant. ...

These statistics may or may not be true (most cannot be proven in any event and they certainly are subject to debate and are also meaningless without clear definitions of which territories are involved and how the population is classified). But all of this is pretty academic because the relevance of this for the current situation is exactly zero.

Bravissimo!

I don't aim to please, but if you like it ... enjoy.

 

[Saigon]

Artevelde -

The idea of wanting to go back to 1899 is hardly mine alone - almost every book on any side of this conflict focuses on the period during which the Ottoman Empire ceded control of the Levant, and the First Aliyah arrived. This period determines the claims made by both Jews and Palestinians.

David Fromkin's essential 'Peace to End All Peace' is absolutely required reading on this.

I think you'd view this aspect of the conflict differently if you'd read that.

 

[Saigon]

It is also a-historical to equate muslims with Arabs or Palestinians.

I'm sure no one "equates" them - but we know from genetic research that the people who lived in cities like Nablus today are the descendents of those who lived there 3,000 years ago, and that the cities have been permanantly inhabited by these same people.

Of course Seljuks and Crusades have come and gone and mixed the gene pool each time, but similar issues arise with Belarus, the Ukraine and even England - and I see few people denying those peoples are the descendants of people who lived on the land 3,000 years earlier.

 

[Artevelde]

Artevelde -

The idea of wanting to go back to 1899 is hardly mine alone - almost every book on any side of this conflict focuses on the period during which the Ottoman Empire ceded control of the Levant, and the First Aliyah arrived. This period determines the claims made by both Jews and Palestinians.

David Fromkin's essential 'Peace to End All Peace' is absolutely required reading on this.

I think you'd view this aspect of the conflict differently if you'd read that.

Yes I've read Fromkin's book and Tom Segev's "One Palestine" (very good that one) and many others.

The idea that this determines what people living today are after is really laughable. You are confusing propaganda with actual aims.

So you want to go back to 1899 and have Finland run by Russia do you?

 

[Artevelde]

It is also a-historical to equate muslims with Arabs or Palestinians.

I'm sure no one "equates" them - but we know from genetic research that the people who lived in cities like Nablus today are the descendents of those who lived there 3,000 years ago, and that the cities have been permanantly inhabited by these same people.

Of course Seljuks and Crusades have come and gone and mixed the gene pool each time, but similar issues arise with Belarus, the Ukraine and even England - and I see few people denying those peoples are the descendants of people who lived on the land 3,000 years earlier.

You believe in fairy tales.

 

[editec]

Couple of points none of which will make me particularly popular with either partisan group posting here.

1. The name Palestine for that area is very old, it stems back to when the Romans controlled the land of Israel...it is not remotely recent or an invention of the PLO.

2. Jews lived in Palestine during the period before the re-creation of Israel, but they were a tiny minority. The figures I have read suggest Jews comprised about 3% of the population of Jerusalem in 1917. They lived there in relative peace and security under the Ottoman's reign over that region.

3. NONE of that matters TODAY. Today the situation is that two very different people live in the place we now call Israel and both peoples, it seems to me at least, have a very legitimate claim to living there.

And what IS that legitimate claim that so many Jews and Arabs share that gives then the HUMAN RIGHT to live in that nation in peace and as full fledged citizens of whatever that land is called?

They were BORN there.

 

[Artevelde]

Couple of points none of which will make me particularly popular with either partisan group posting here.

1. The name Palestine for that area is very old, it stems back to when the Romans controlled the land of Israel...it is not remotely recent or an invention of the PLO.

2. Jews lived in Palestine during the period before the re-creation of Israel, but they were a tiny minority. The figures I have read suggest Jews comprised about 3% of the population of Jerusalem in 1917. They lived there in relative peace and security under the Ottoman's reign over that region.

3. NONE of that matters TODAY. Today the situation is that two very different people live in the place we now call Israel and both peoples, it seems to me at least, have a very legitimate claim to living there.

And what IS that legitimate claim that so many Jews and Arabs share that gives then the HUMAN RIGHT to live in that nation in peace and as full fledged citizens of whatever that land is called?

They were BORN there.

I don't have too much of a problem with what you write, except for:

1) We're talking about a wider area than the state of Israel here: also the West Bank and Gaza.

2) The size of the Jewish population in the Holy Land and its percentage of the overal population has fluctuated considerably throughout history.

 

[Saigon]

2. Jews lived in Palestine during the period before the re-creation of Israel, but they were a tiny minority. The figures I have read suggest Jews comprised about 3% of the population of Jerusalem in 1917. They lived there in relative peace and security under the Ottoman's reign over that region.
.

Yes, that's true - there is no question that Jew have lived in some towns (Jerusalem, Jericho) as far back as human inhabitation can be traced.

Hence the stats posted here I think are interesting.

Artevelde -

I think the point about Belarus and Ukraine is very fair and very valid.

 

[Artevelde]

2. Jews lived in Palestine during the period before the re-creation of Israel, but they were a tiny minority. The figures I have read suggest Jews comprised about 3% of the population of Jerusalem in 1917. They lived there in relative peace and security under the Ottoman's reign over that region.
.

Yes, that's true - there is no question that Jew have lived in some towns (Jerusalem, Jericho) as far back as human inhabitation can be traced.

Hence the stats posted here I think are interesting.

Artevelde -

I think the point about Belarus and Ukraine is very fair and very valid.

You want to back to 1899 in Belarus and Ukraine too?

 

[Saigon]

Artevelde -

I really wish you wouldn't play games. I'm not interested.

 

[Artevelde]

Artevelde -

I really wish you wouldn't play games. I'm not interested.

Maybe if you don't want to get called on the inconsistencies in what you write you should be more careful.

 

[P F Tinmore]

Britain had 100,000 forces in Palestine with clear intentions of ruling it.

Articles of the Palestine mandate:

Preamble) Whereas the Principal Allied Powers have also agreed that the Mandatory should be responsible for putting into effect the declaration originally made on November 2nd, 1917, by the Government of His Britannic Majesty, and adopted by the said Powers, in favor of the establishment in Palestine of a national home for the Jewish people, it being clearly understood that nothing should be done which might prejudice the civil and religious rights of existing non-Jewish communities in Palestine, or the rights and political status enjoyed by Jews in any other country; and

2) The Mandatory shall be responsible for placing the country under such political, administrative and economic conditions as will secure the establishment of the Jewish national home,

3) The Mandatory shall, so far as circumstances permit, encourage local autonomy.

The Avalon Project : The Palestine Mandate

Just a silly, helpless, illiterate child.

Are you fucking blind? It said Govt of Britannic Majesty. Not Arabic majesty. Not Palestinic govt of Islamic filthisty.

Now it can't even read what it posts.

Already told you the Brits sided with the Arabs at first.

Hilarious.

How can you say that when Britain went to Palestine with the Balfour declaration in its pocket?

 

[P F Tinmore]

Are you fucking blind? It said Govt of Britannic Majesty. Not Arabic majesty. Not Palestinic govt of Islamic filthisty.

Now it can't even read what it posts.

Already told you the Brits sided with the Arabs at first.

Hilarious.

Again, you seem to not understand what has been posted.

You claim the British "owned" Palestine.

What I have posted shows that the terms of the mandate were not ownership, but were designed to spephard the region towards statehood and the creation of a Jewish homeland.

I realise that you get very bitter and angry on these threads, but if you struggle to understand what is posted, that is hardly my fault.

That is a key point.

What I have posted shows that the terms of the mandate were not ownership, but were designed to spephard the region towards statehood and the creation of a Jewish homeland.

And that homeland was not to be a Jewish state.

 

[Artevelde]

Are you fucking blind? It said Govt of Britannic Majesty. Not Arabic majesty. Not Palestinic govt of Islamic filthisty.

Now it can't even read what it posts.

Already told you the Brits sided with the Arabs at first.

Hilarious.

Again, you seem to not understand what has been posted.

You claim the British "owned" Palestine.

What I have posted shows that the terms of the mandate were not ownership, but were designed to spephard the region towards statehood and the creation of a Jewish homeland.

I realise that you get very bitter and angry on these threads, but if you struggle to understand what is posted, that is hardly my fault.

That is a key point.

What I have posted shows that the terms of the mandate were not ownership, but were designed to spephard the region towards statehood and the creation of a Jewish homeland.

And that homeland was not to be a Jewish state.

Yes, we know you are a racist liar.

 

[P F Tinmore]

Again, you seem to not understand what has been posted.

You claim the British "owned" Palestine.

What I have posted shows that the terms of the mandate were not ownership, but were designed to spephard the region towards statehood and the creation of a Jewish homeland.

I realise that you get very bitter and angry on these threads, but if you struggle to understand what is posted, that is hardly my fault.

That is a key point.

What I have posted shows that the terms of the mandate were not ownership, but were designed to spephard the region towards statehood and the creation of a Jewish homeland.

And that homeland was not to be a Jewish state.

Yes, we know you are a racist liar.

Britain clarified the purpose of the mandate in its 1939 white paper that you have probably not read.

 

[Hossfly]

I this graphic really says all one needs to know about poulation development in the Levant.

What we see is that the Jews were the first to arrive, but were no longer the majority of the population by the 5th century.

Palestinians and Muslims have formed the majority of the population for the past 1,000 years.

Prior to the first Aliyah, there were only 7,000 Jews in the area, a tiny fraction of the population.

Also note that the Jewish community was always focused on two or three cities: Jerusalem, Jericho in particular, whereas the majority of the land had a clear Palestinian/Muslim majority much earlier than the 5th century.

(As the table isn't appearing clearly, I suggest checking the link)

Year Jews Christians Muslims Total

1 First half 1st century CE Majority - - ~2,500²
5th century Minority Majority - >1st century
End 12th century Minority Minority Majority >225
14th cent. (before B Death) Minority Minority Majority 225
14th cent. (after B Death) Minority Minority Majority 150
1533–1539 5 6 145 157
1690–1691 2 11 219 232
1800 7 22 246 275
1890 43 57 432 532
1914 94 70 525 689
1922 84 71 589 752
1931 175 89 760 1,033
1947 630 143 1,181 1,970​

Demographics of Palestine - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Background Information

History & Geography of Israel & Palestine. Also... Zionism, Refugees, PLO, Terrorism, Arab-Israeli Conflict

 

[Saigon]

Hoss -

massada2000.org is just a blog - let's stick to credible sources.

Wasn't it you saying the other day you preferred the work of accredited journalists?