Democrats propose "transaction tax" on financial transactions. (Poll)

Do you support the new "transaction tax", and if so, what would you do with the revenue?

  • No, I'll explain why in my post

    Votes: 18 64.3%
  • Yes, to pay for free community college & job training

    Votes: 3 10.7%
  • Yes, to pay for 1/2 of 4-year college and advanced degrees

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Yes, to pay into the general revenue fund to pay for SS & Medicare

    Votes: 2 7.1%
  • Yes, see my post for where I'd put the $80b/yr revenue

    Votes: 5 17.9%

  • Total voters
    28

Mac-7

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22% of the budget isn't exactly small
Some of it could and should be cut but certainly not all of it
There is no need for the government to pay farmers to grow any particular crop. There is no need for government price fixing of agricultural goods either
Farmers face a lot of problems

Flooding, drought, pestilence, disease.

A small farmer particularly is in a vulnerable position

When conditions are favorable he makes a good crop.

But so does everyone else and prices fall

in lean years prices go back up but he has little or nothing to sell
That can be said about ALL commodities.

The government has no business interfering with the actual price of food. If it is to expensive, the LAST option is to pay off special interests to cover the problem up...

One of the things those payoffs do though is ensure the small farmer simply does not exist so it certainly is not helping the small guy in a venerable position.
its much different for small farmers than mega ag corps or other companies

Cambells Soup knows almost exactly much how soup they will sell in the following year

the small farmer does not know how much he will grow or what crop prices will be a year from now

Which puts him at great risk
Instead, we have 'Campbell's soup' which knows exactly what to plant and when to get the most government money. Money it then uses to put every small farmer they can out of business. Money they can reinvest in lobbyists that ensure the payouts help them and not their upstart competition.

So, ya. Those farmers are not vulnerable as most of them do not exist anymore.
You are quite mistaken

farming is big business in the form of equipment makers, seed and fertilizer companies, ag schools, more ways than I can think of

but those are not mega farms

they serve farmers

most farms are at best medium size and individually owned
 
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kyzr

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Little more than a gimmick. It will not stop institutionalized investors will find other financial products to invest in, move those transactions elsewhere or find a way around the tax. HFT is essentially irrelevant to those that are not part of the trading as long term health of an asset is not phased by short term fluctuations.

The government will not get a tiny fraction of what it says it will out of the tax, more regulation is not going to help the average guy's 401k in any way and the spending that the tax is supposed to go to will not only exceed the projected gains but will not change when the government reveals that they are making far less than projected.
I see your words, but need proof of what you say is true.
ALL money made by HFTs is stolen from investors.
First, its not 'stolen' as that necessitates taking from someone without their consent, consent you give when you agree to buy and sell stock. Claiming it stealing is like whining the card players at the poker table stole from you because they are better at the game.

Second, that money comes from other high frequency or institutional investors. Not a single one of my investments has been effected by HFT because I do not invest short term. That a stock may half, double and then half again in price over the course of a month is irrelevant to the vast majority of investors, all that matters is the price point you get in and out. If you are not involved in short term trades then HFT does nothing to your investments. Short term volatility is simply not relevant.

If you are a short term investor then you are getting exactly what you want. All a tax on HFT does is attempt to remove a specific market for trades.

Finally, you have provided no proof that HFT traders steal anything. Your complaints about insider trading are not even remotely relevant to HFT, you can trade on inside information or manipulate the market without participating in a lot of transactions. We do know the government will not get what it thinks it will because they never raise the amounts they promise. Same thing goes with what happens to the money raised. You can guarantee that adding this tax will only increase the debt because the tax is not even represented as a function of raising funds, it is represented as a function of WHAT THEY CAN BUY WITH THE TAX.

IOW, the money would already be spent and even if it is done through reconciliation (which requires it to be deficit neutral iirc) it would still fail as there is zero chance they would actually ties the amount spent with the amount raised.

There are 2 reasons I can see to support something like this:
HFTs are an infringement on the people's freedom - Give me a good reason that the government should be infringing on my freedom to trade as I see fit because that is what you need. Not that more advanced individuals and/or institutions are taking the majority of the gains, that happens in every single field or economic activity in existence. 100 percent of them. There is not a single example of that not being the case. Tell me exactly how those HFTs are infringing on my freedom. Then there is a case to limit them.
or
Taxing HFTs is a necessary and proper source of funding for the federal government. That I think is rather indefensible but then again I think the government should be funded in an even manner without all the special interests, outright thuggish control or specifically targeting small groups of people.

Not liking HFTs because they can be used in a manner you do not agree with is not one of them.
1. HFTs are not "fair", they use super-computers to steal in microseconds. Now if they pass the transaction tax, the HFTs can whine it isn't fair to them. I never gave my consent for HFTs to steal my investment. I'm giving my consent fro the transaction tax.
2. Where does the money that HFTs make come from? That's right, other people's investments. (aka stealing)
3. When 70% of all trades are by HFTs that makes for unnecessary volatility. The 2010 "flash crash" is what happens. We need real investment, not computer theft. The government needs to straighten out the stock markets, a transaction tax is a good start.
4. Proof that HFT is "theft"? What product or service do they sell? Hint: nothing, they just steal other people's investments.
5. I need the government to stop the HFTs computers from stealing our investments. That "theft" infringes on my investment freedom. IT'S THEFT!!
6. We all would pay the transaction tax, its minimal unless you're an HFT. The object is to make more investments "long-term" to create jobs and expand businesses.

Proof that HFT is "theft"? What product or service do they sell? Hint: nothing, they just steal other people's investments.

Have you made money on your investments? Yes?

Thief!!!
1. I invested with companies for a long time, we both profited.
2. HFTs steal in thousandths of a second, its theft.
who are they stealing from?
Investors.
 

struth

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Little more than a gimmick. It will not stop institutionalized investors will find other financial products to invest in, move those transactions elsewhere or find a way around the tax. HFT is essentially irrelevant to those that are not part of the trading as long term health of an asset is not phased by short term fluctuations.

The government will not get a tiny fraction of what it says it will out of the tax, more regulation is not going to help the average guy's 401k in any way and the spending that the tax is supposed to go to will not only exceed the projected gains but will not change when the government reveals that they are making far less than projected.
I see your words, but need proof of what you say is true.
ALL money made by HFTs is stolen from investors.
First, its not 'stolen' as that necessitates taking from someone without their consent, consent you give when you agree to buy and sell stock. Claiming it stealing is like whining the card players at the poker table stole from you because they are better at the game.

Second, that money comes from other high frequency or institutional investors. Not a single one of my investments has been effected by HFT because I do not invest short term. That a stock may half, double and then half again in price over the course of a month is irrelevant to the vast majority of investors, all that matters is the price point you get in and out. If you are not involved in short term trades then HFT does nothing to your investments. Short term volatility is simply not relevant.

If you are a short term investor then you are getting exactly what you want. All a tax on HFT does is attempt to remove a specific market for trades.

Finally, you have provided no proof that HFT traders steal anything. Your complaints about insider trading are not even remotely relevant to HFT, you can trade on inside information or manipulate the market without participating in a lot of transactions. We do know the government will not get what it thinks it will because they never raise the amounts they promise. Same thing goes with what happens to the money raised. You can guarantee that adding this tax will only increase the debt because the tax is not even represented as a function of raising funds, it is represented as a function of WHAT THEY CAN BUY WITH THE TAX.

IOW, the money would already be spent and even if it is done through reconciliation (which requires it to be deficit neutral iirc) it would still fail as there is zero chance they would actually ties the amount spent with the amount raised.

There are 2 reasons I can see to support something like this:
HFTs are an infringement on the people's freedom - Give me a good reason that the government should be infringing on my freedom to trade as I see fit because that is what you need. Not that more advanced individuals and/or institutions are taking the majority of the gains, that happens in every single field or economic activity in existence. 100 percent of them. There is not a single example of that not being the case. Tell me exactly how those HFTs are infringing on my freedom. Then there is a case to limit them.
or
Taxing HFTs is a necessary and proper source of funding for the federal government. That I think is rather indefensible but then again I think the government should be funded in an even manner without all the special interests, outright thuggish control or specifically targeting small groups of people.

Not liking HFTs because they can be used in a manner you do not agree with is not one of them.
1. HFTs are not "fair", they use super-computers to steal in microseconds. Now if they pass the transaction tax, the HFTs can whine it isn't fair to them. I never gave my consent for HFTs to steal my investment. I'm giving my consent fro the transaction tax.
2. Where does the money that HFTs make come from? That's right, other people's investments. (aka stealing)
3. When 70% of all trades are by HFTs that makes for unnecessary volatility. The 2010 "flash crash" is what happens. We need real investment, not computer theft. The government needs to straighten out the stock markets, a transaction tax is a good start.
4. Proof that HFT is "theft"? What product or service do they sell? Hint: nothing, they just steal other people's investments.
5. I need the government to stop the HFTs computers from stealing our investments. That "theft" infringes on my investment freedom. IT'S THEFT!!
6. We all would pay the transaction tax, its minimal unless you're an HFT. The object is to make more investments "long-term" to create jobs and expand businesses.

Proof that HFT is "theft"? What product or service do they sell? Hint: nothing, they just steal other people's investments.

Have you made money on your investments? Yes?

Thief!!!
1. I invested with companies for a long time, we both profited.
2. HFTs steal in thousandths of a second, its theft.
who are they stealing from?
Investors.
How? If something is for sale, and it's purchased...how is that stealing? Likewise, if they sell something, how are they steeling?
 
OP
kyzr

kyzr

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1. Most of us are "investors", we invest in companies to hire and expand for a long-term capital gain.
2. HFTs steal the investment by "front-running". I already gave you links explaining front-running.
3. HFTs use "high-frequency trading" to steal money from investors. They are financial are leeches, QED.
4. As explained, HFTs steal from large trades of TSLA, duh. Not every trade. All the money they make is stolen from investors.
5. You can't explain any societal benefits that HFTs have, as compared to long-term investors. All HFTs do is steal investment capital intended for companies to grow the US economy.

HFTs steal the investment by "front-running". I already gave you links explaining front-running.

If you hear that Vanguard is about to enter an order to buy 100,000 shares of Tesla and you enter a buy order first, that's front-running and illegal.

How is an HFT, without that pre-knowledge, going to front-run that order?

HFTs use "high-frequency trading" to steal money from investors.

You can't show how they steal from my order, why would we believe your claim here?

You can't explain any societal benefits that HFTs have,

I can't explain any social benefit you provide, that doesn't mean you should be outlawed.

All HFTs do is steal investment capital intended for companies to grow the US economy.

You just can't show how.
Willful ignorance won't get you any points with me. I'm retired and can post all day and all night.
1. HFTs exist to steal money, its all computerized, no one "hears" anything.
The transaction tax will make it harder for them to steal other people's investments.
2. They don't steal from every order, idiot. If they didn't steal money they wouldn't exist. They make no products.
3. I provided a service. Most companies make products or provide services. HFTs exist to steal investments.
4. I showed you how HFTs steal many times, its called "front-running". You can't tell me what product or service HFTs provide, because all they do to make money is steal it from other people.

I showed you how HFTs steal many times, its called "front-running".

How does an HFT steal by front-running? Spell it out.

They don't steal from every order,

Show that they steal from any order.

You can't tell me what product or service HFTs provide

They provide liquidity. You don't have to like it.

High Frequency Trading in the US - Market Size | IBISWorld
1. Read up on HFT, its computerized theft.
2. If they don't steal money what product do they produce? hint: no product or service, they just steal.
3. HFTs don't provide liquidity, they provide volatility, like the 2010 "flash crash".

Critiques of HFT
HFT is controversial and has been met with some harsh criticism. It has replaced a number of broker-dealers and uses mathematical models and algorithms to make decisions, taking human decision and interaction out of the equation. Decisions happen in milliseconds, and this could result in big market moves without reason. As an example, on May 6, 2010, the Dow Jones Industrial Average (DJIA) suffered its largest intraday point drop ever, declining 1,000 points and dropping 10% in just 20 minutes before rising again. A government investigation blamed a massive order that triggered a sell-off for the crash.3

An additional critique of HFT is it allows large companies to profit at the expense of the "little guys," or the institutional and retail investors. Another major complaint about HFT is the liquidity provided by HFT is "ghost liquidity," meaning it provides liquidity that is available to the market one second and gone the next, preventing traders from actually being able to trade this liquidity.


1. Read up on HFT, its computerized theft.

I've read up on it. It's not.

2. If they don't steal money what product do they produce? hint: no product or service, they just steal.

They don't steal money. They buy low and sell high......if they do it right.

An additional critique of HFT is it allows large companies to profit at the expense of the "little guys," or the institutional and retail investors.

It allows large companies to profit at the expense of institutional investors?
Like other even larger companies? LOL!
1. It is stealing. There is no other word for it.
2. Buys and sells in thousandths of a second is stealing.
3. Large as in supercomputer size. The biggest and fastest computers steal more, at the expense of "institutional and retail investors". That's what the article says. They called it "profit" I call it "stealing'.
How is buying and selling something stealing? That's where you lost me here.

I certainly don't disagree that you can be critical of the fact that it puts smaller broker firms at a massive disadvantage, and also takes out a lot of the human process since it's all computer and programs...but it's not stealing...not if they are BUYING the stock

Investors buy and hold stock in a company to provide CAPITAL to grow the company.
HFTs use computers to buy/sell in microseconds stealing that CAPITAL. The HFTs do NOT provide capital, they steal it, they provide no services and make no products, they are computerized thieves, just like hackers stealing from investors.
 

struth

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1. Most of us are "investors", we invest in companies to hire and expand for a long-term capital gain.
2. HFTs steal the investment by "front-running". I already gave you links explaining front-running.
3. HFTs use "high-frequency trading" to steal money from investors. They are financial are leeches, QED.
4. As explained, HFTs steal from large trades of TSLA, duh. Not every trade. All the money they make is stolen from investors.
5. You can't explain any societal benefits that HFTs have, as compared to long-term investors. All HFTs do is steal investment capital intended for companies to grow the US economy.

HFTs steal the investment by "front-running". I already gave you links explaining front-running.

If you hear that Vanguard is about to enter an order to buy 100,000 shares of Tesla and you enter a buy order first, that's front-running and illegal.

How is an HFT, without that pre-knowledge, going to front-run that order?

HFTs use "high-frequency trading" to steal money from investors.

You can't show how they steal from my order, why would we believe your claim here?

You can't explain any societal benefits that HFTs have,

I can't explain any social benefit you provide, that doesn't mean you should be outlawed.

All HFTs do is steal investment capital intended for companies to grow the US economy.

You just can't show how.
Willful ignorance won't get you any points with me. I'm retired and can post all day and all night.
1. HFTs exist to steal money, its all computerized, no one "hears" anything.
The transaction tax will make it harder for them to steal other people's investments.
2. They don't steal from every order, idiot. If they didn't steal money they wouldn't exist. They make no products.
3. I provided a service. Most companies make products or provide services. HFTs exist to steal investments.
4. I showed you how HFTs steal many times, its called "front-running". You can't tell me what product or service HFTs provide, because all they do to make money is steal it from other people.

I showed you how HFTs steal many times, its called "front-running".

How does an HFT steal by front-running? Spell it out.

They don't steal from every order,

Show that they steal from any order.

You can't tell me what product or service HFTs provide

They provide liquidity. You don't have to like it.

High Frequency Trading in the US - Market Size | IBISWorld
1. Read up on HFT, its computerized theft.
2. If they don't steal money what product do they produce? hint: no product or service, they just steal.
3. HFTs don't provide liquidity, they provide volatility, like the 2010 "flash crash".

Critiques of HFT
HFT is controversial and has been met with some harsh criticism. It has replaced a number of broker-dealers and uses mathematical models and algorithms to make decisions, taking human decision and interaction out of the equation. Decisions happen in milliseconds, and this could result in big market moves without reason. As an example, on May 6, 2010, the Dow Jones Industrial Average (DJIA) suffered its largest intraday point drop ever, declining 1,000 points and dropping 10% in just 20 minutes before rising again. A government investigation blamed a massive order that triggered a sell-off for the crash.3

An additional critique of HFT is it allows large companies to profit at the expense of the "little guys," or the institutional and retail investors. Another major complaint about HFT is the liquidity provided by HFT is "ghost liquidity," meaning it provides liquidity that is available to the market one second and gone the next, preventing traders from actually being able to trade this liquidity.


1. Read up on HFT, its computerized theft.

I've read up on it. It's not.

2. If they don't steal money what product do they produce? hint: no product or service, they just steal.

They don't steal money. They buy low and sell high......if they do it right.

An additional critique of HFT is it allows large companies to profit at the expense of the "little guys," or the institutional and retail investors.

It allows large companies to profit at the expense of institutional investors?
Like other even larger companies? LOL!
1. It is stealing. There is no other word for it.
2. Buys and sells in thousandths of a second is stealing.
3. Large as in supercomputer size. The biggest and fastest computers steal more, at the expense of "institutional and retail investors". That's what the article says. They called it "profit" I call it "stealing'.
How is buying and selling something stealing? That's where you lost me here.

I certainly don't disagree that you can be critical of the fact that it puts smaller broker firms at a massive disadvantage, and also takes out a lot of the human process since it's all computer and programs...but it's not stealing...not if they are BUYING the stock

Investors buy and hold stock in a company to provide CAPITAL to grow the company.
HFTs use computers to buy/sell in microseconds stealing that CAPITAL. The HFTs do NOT provide capital, they steal it, they provide no services and make no products, they are computerized thieves, just like hackers stealing from investors.
How are they stealing it, if it's for sale? and they are buying it?
 
OP
kyzr

kyzr

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1. It is stealing. There is no other word for it.
2. Buys and sells in thousandths of a second is stealing.
3. Large as in supercomputer size. The biggest and fastest computers steal more, at the expense of "institutional and retail investors". That's what the article says. They called it "profit" I call it "stealing'.

It is stealing. There is no other word for it.

You're lying.

Buys and sells in thousandths of a second is stealing.

Are market-makers also stealing?

The biggest and fastest computers steal more, at the expense of "institutional and retail investors".

You've failed to show how they've ever stolen from you.

Arbitrage performs a valuable service: reaching a price point which most accurately balances the interests of buyers and sellers. The faster and more efficiently that happens, the better. Critics would have us believe that slowing that process down somehow benefits the market. While it might benefit traders who don't have access to high-speed networks, relative to those who do, it only makes the market less efficient.
HFTs are about 70% of the volume of all trades, and they don't "own" any stock.
They just buy/sell in microseconds raking in other people's investment.
The "flash crash" of 2010 was all due to HFTs. Yet the markets all tanked.
That is too much risk for no benefit.
I hope the transaction tax passes.
 

Toddsterpatriot

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Investors buy and hold stock in a company to provide CAPITAL to grow the company.
HFTs use computers to buy/sell in microseconds stealing that CAPITAL.

So if I place an order to buy 10,000 shares of GE, HFTs are stealing
capital from GE or stealing capital from me?

Feel free to explain either scenario that applies.
 
OP
kyzr

kyzr

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Little more than a gimmick. It will not stop institutionalized investors will find other financial products to invest in, move those transactions elsewhere or find a way around the tax. HFT is essentially irrelevant to those that are not part of the trading as long term health of an asset is not phased by short term fluctuations.

The government will not get a tiny fraction of what it says it will out of the tax, more regulation is not going to help the average guy's 401k in any way and the spending that the tax is supposed to go to will not only exceed the projected gains but will not change when the government reveals that they are making far less than projected.
I see your words, but need proof of what you say is true.
ALL money made by HFTs is stolen from investors.
First, its not 'stolen' as that necessitates taking from someone without their consent, consent you give when you agree to buy and sell stock. Claiming it stealing is like whining the card players at the poker table stole from you because they are better at the game.

Second, that money comes from other high frequency or institutional investors. Not a single one of my investments has been effected by HFT because I do not invest short term. That a stock may half, double and then half again in price over the course of a month is irrelevant to the vast majority of investors, all that matters is the price point you get in and out. If you are not involved in short term trades then HFT does nothing to your investments. Short term volatility is simply not relevant.

If you are a short term investor then you are getting exactly what you want. All a tax on HFT does is attempt to remove a specific market for trades.

Finally, you have provided no proof that HFT traders steal anything. Your complaints about insider trading are not even remotely relevant to HFT, you can trade on inside information or manipulate the market without participating in a lot of transactions. We do know the government will not get what it thinks it will because they never raise the amounts they promise. Same thing goes with what happens to the money raised. You can guarantee that adding this tax will only increase the debt because the tax is not even represented as a function of raising funds, it is represented as a function of WHAT THEY CAN BUY WITH THE TAX.

IOW, the money would already be spent and even if it is done through reconciliation (which requires it to be deficit neutral iirc) it would still fail as there is zero chance they would actually ties the amount spent with the amount raised.

There are 2 reasons I can see to support something like this:
HFTs are an infringement on the people's freedom - Give me a good reason that the government should be infringing on my freedom to trade as I see fit because that is what you need. Not that more advanced individuals and/or institutions are taking the majority of the gains, that happens in every single field or economic activity in existence. 100 percent of them. There is not a single example of that not being the case. Tell me exactly how those HFTs are infringing on my freedom. Then there is a case to limit them.
or
Taxing HFTs is a necessary and proper source of funding for the federal government. That I think is rather indefensible but then again I think the government should be funded in an even manner without all the special interests, outright thuggish control or specifically targeting small groups of people.

Not liking HFTs because they can be used in a manner you do not agree with is not one of them.
1. HFTs are not "fair", they use super-computers to steal in microseconds. Now if they pass the transaction tax, the HFTs can whine it isn't fair to them. I never gave my consent for HFTs to steal my investment. I'm giving my consent fro the transaction tax.
2. Where does the money that HFTs make come from? That's right, other people's investments. (aka stealing)
3. When 70% of all trades are by HFTs that makes for unnecessary volatility. The 2010 "flash crash" is what happens. We need real investment, not computer theft. The government needs to straighten out the stock markets, a transaction tax is a good start.
4. Proof that HFT is "theft"? What product or service do they sell? Hint: nothing, they just steal other people's investments.
5. I need the government to stop the HFTs computers from stealing our investments. That "theft" infringes on my investment freedom. IT'S THEFT!!
6. We all would pay the transaction tax, its minimal unless you're an HFT. The object is to make more investments "long-term" to create jobs and expand businesses.

Proof that HFT is "theft"? What product or service do they sell? Hint: nothing, they just steal other people's investments.

Have you made money on your investments? Yes?

Thief!!!
1. I invested with companies for a long time, we both profited.
2. HFTs steal in thousandths of a second, its theft.
who are they stealing from?
Investors.
How? If something is for sale, and it's purchased...how is that stealing? Likewise, if they sell something, how are they steeling?
Stock is for sale as an "investment" to provide capital for companies to grow.
If you have a 401K your money is invested in many companies.
HFTs use computers to "milk" the investor's capital using computer algorithms to buy/sell in thousadnths of a second. The money the HFTs steal should be used by companies to grow and hire people, and increase your 401K.
 
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kyzr

kyzr

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Investors buy and hold stock in a company to provide CAPITAL to grow the company.
HFTs use computers to buy/sell in microseconds stealing that CAPITAL.

So if I place an order to buy 10,000 shares of GE, HFTs are stealing
capital from GE or stealing capital from me?

Feel free to explain either scenario that applies.
The HFT computers know how to steal money from investors, its what they do, its all they do.
HFTs sell no products and provide no services, they just milk capital from financial markets, capital stolen from investors, in milliseconds.
The HFT computers know which trades make money and which to ignore. I'm sure they ignore penny stocks too.
 
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kyzr

kyzr

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HFTs use computers to "milk" the investor's capital using computer algorithms to buy/sell in thousadnths of a second.

How did they "milk" money out of your long-term holdings?
Where did the money they make come from?
Did they make a product, or perform a service? <fuck no>
All of the money the HFTs steal comes out of capital provided by investors that companies could use to grow.
 

dblack

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Investors buy and hold stock in a company to provide CAPITAL to grow the company.
HFTs use computers to buy/sell in microseconds stealing that CAPITAL.

So if I place an order to buy 10,000 shares of GE, HFTs are stealing
capital from GE or stealing capital from me?

Feel free to explain either scenario that applies.
The HFT computers know how to steal money from investors, its what they do, its all they do.
You seem to be coming from the "zero-sum-game" theory of economics. Not every gain implies someone else's loss.
 

Crepitus

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I never thought that I'd ever be on the same side as Ilhan Omar, but here we are.
I support the proposed transaction tax. It will hit the high-speed traders more than me or other "buy and hold" investors.

The argument against it is that high-speed traders will just move off-shore to do their trades, fine.
They are nothing but leeches stealing our 401k investments.


"This (transaction tax) makes financial markets fairer and possibly less volatile. As described by Michael Lewis in Flash Boys, high frequency traders (HFTs) can earn profits by front-running other trades by micro-seconds, an activity that raises costs for legitimate traders and provides no value to society. HFTs account for roughly half all stock trades and much of their business model would be threatened by the proposed transactions tax.
Under current law, someone selling or buying $1,000 of stock pays just over two cents in transaction taxes. This existing fee raises over $1.5 billion per year. The proposal would add a tax of $1 to that transaction."
It would also have a stabilizing effect on the markets.
 

struth

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Little more than a gimmick. It will not stop institutionalized investors will find other financial products to invest in, move those transactions elsewhere or find a way around the tax. HFT is essentially irrelevant to those that are not part of the trading as long term health of an asset is not phased by short term fluctuations.

The government will not get a tiny fraction of what it says it will out of the tax, more regulation is not going to help the average guy's 401k in any way and the spending that the tax is supposed to go to will not only exceed the projected gains but will not change when the government reveals that they are making far less than projected.
I see your words, but need proof of what you say is true.
ALL money made by HFTs is stolen from investors.
First, its not 'stolen' as that necessitates taking from someone without their consent, consent you give when you agree to buy and sell stock. Claiming it stealing is like whining the card players at the poker table stole from you because they are better at the game.

Second, that money comes from other high frequency or institutional investors. Not a single one of my investments has been effected by HFT because I do not invest short term. That a stock may half, double and then half again in price over the course of a month is irrelevant to the vast majority of investors, all that matters is the price point you get in and out. If you are not involved in short term trades then HFT does nothing to your investments. Short term volatility is simply not relevant.

If you are a short term investor then you are getting exactly what you want. All a tax on HFT does is attempt to remove a specific market for trades.

Finally, you have provided no proof that HFT traders steal anything. Your complaints about insider trading are not even remotely relevant to HFT, you can trade on inside information or manipulate the market without participating in a lot of transactions. We do know the government will not get what it thinks it will because they never raise the amounts they promise. Same thing goes with what happens to the money raised. You can guarantee that adding this tax will only increase the debt because the tax is not even represented as a function of raising funds, it is represented as a function of WHAT THEY CAN BUY WITH THE TAX.

IOW, the money would already be spent and even if it is done through reconciliation (which requires it to be deficit neutral iirc) it would still fail as there is zero chance they would actually ties the amount spent with the amount raised.

There are 2 reasons I can see to support something like this:
HFTs are an infringement on the people's freedom - Give me a good reason that the government should be infringing on my freedom to trade as I see fit because that is what you need. Not that more advanced individuals and/or institutions are taking the majority of the gains, that happens in every single field or economic activity in existence. 100 percent of them. There is not a single example of that not being the case. Tell me exactly how those HFTs are infringing on my freedom. Then there is a case to limit them.
or
Taxing HFTs is a necessary and proper source of funding for the federal government. That I think is rather indefensible but then again I think the government should be funded in an even manner without all the special interests, outright thuggish control or specifically targeting small groups of people.

Not liking HFTs because they can be used in a manner you do not agree with is not one of them.
1. HFTs are not "fair", they use super-computers to steal in microseconds. Now if they pass the transaction tax, the HFTs can whine it isn't fair to them. I never gave my consent for HFTs to steal my investment. I'm giving my consent fro the transaction tax.
2. Where does the money that HFTs make come from? That's right, other people's investments. (aka stealing)
3. When 70% of all trades are by HFTs that makes for unnecessary volatility. The 2010 "flash crash" is what happens. We need real investment, not computer theft. The government needs to straighten out the stock markets, a transaction tax is a good start.
4. Proof that HFT is "theft"? What product or service do they sell? Hint: nothing, they just steal other people's investments.
5. I need the government to stop the HFTs computers from stealing our investments. That "theft" infringes on my investment freedom. IT'S THEFT!!
6. We all would pay the transaction tax, its minimal unless you're an HFT. The object is to make more investments "long-term" to create jobs and expand businesses.

Proof that HFT is "theft"? What product or service do they sell? Hint: nothing, they just steal other people's investments.

Have you made money on your investments? Yes?

Thief!!!
1. I invested with companies for a long time, we both profited.
2. HFTs steal in thousandths of a second, its theft.
who are they stealing from?
Investors.
How? If something is for sale, and it's purchased...how is that stealing? Likewise, if they sell something, how are they steeling?
Stock is for sale as an "investment" to provide capital for companies to grow.
If you have a 401K your money is invested in many companies.
HFTs use computers to "milk" the investor's capital using computer algorithms to buy/sell in thousadnths of a second. The money the HFTs steal should be used by companies to grow and hire people, and increase your 401K.
I know what HFT do, but how are they stealing something that is for sale, and they pay for it?
 

struth

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I never thought that I'd ever be on the same side as Ilhan Omar, but here we are.
I support the proposed transaction tax. It will hit the high-speed traders more than me or other "buy and hold" investors.

The argument against it is that high-speed traders will just move off-shore to do their trades, fine.
They are nothing but leeches stealing our 401k investments.


"This (transaction tax) makes financial markets fairer and possibly less volatile. As described by Michael Lewis in Flash Boys, high frequency traders (HFTs) can earn profits by front-running other trades by micro-seconds, an activity that raises costs for legitimate traders and provides no value to society. HFTs account for roughly half all stock trades and much of their business model would be threatened by the proposed transactions tax.
Under current law, someone selling or buying $1,000 of stock pays just over two cents in transaction taxes. This existing fee raises over $1.5 billion per year. The proposal would add a tax of $1 to that transaction."
It would also have a stabilizing effect on the markets.
How so?
 
OP
kyzr

kyzr

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Investors buy and hold stock in a company to provide CAPITAL to grow the company.
HFTs use computers to buy/sell in microseconds stealing that CAPITAL.

So if I place an order to buy 10,000 shares of GE, HFTs are stealing
capital from GE or stealing capital from me?

Feel free to explain either scenario that applies.
The HFT computers know how to steal money from investors, its what they do, its all they do.
You seem to be coming from the "zero-sum-game" theory of economics. Not every gain implies someone else's loss.
IMHO when investors buy stocks, and HFTs remove some of that capital via computerized algorithms, that money they removed hurts investors' 401Ks. HFTs make no products, and provide no services, they just rake in investor's cash.
 

dblack

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Little more than a gimmick. It will not stop institutionalized investors will find other financial products to invest in, move those transactions elsewhere or find a way around the tax. HFT is essentially irrelevant to those that are not part of the trading as long term health of an asset is not phased by short term fluctuations.

The government will not get a tiny fraction of what it says it will out of the tax, more regulation is not going to help the average guy's 401k in any way and the spending that the tax is supposed to go to will not only exceed the projected gains but will not change when the government reveals that they are making far less than projected.
I see your words, but need proof of what you say is true.
ALL money made by HFTs is stolen from investors.
First, its not 'stolen' as that necessitates taking from someone without their consent, consent you give when you agree to buy and sell stock. Claiming it stealing is like whining the card players at the poker table stole from you because they are better at the game.

Second, that money comes from other high frequency or institutional investors. Not a single one of my investments has been effected by HFT because I do not invest short term. That a stock may half, double and then half again in price over the course of a month is irrelevant to the vast majority of investors, all that matters is the price point you get in and out. If you are not involved in short term trades then HFT does nothing to your investments. Short term volatility is simply not relevant.

If you are a short term investor then you are getting exactly what you want. All a tax on HFT does is attempt to remove a specific market for trades.

Finally, you have provided no proof that HFT traders steal anything. Your complaints about insider trading are not even remotely relevant to HFT, you can trade on inside information or manipulate the market without participating in a lot of transactions. We do know the government will not get what it thinks it will because they never raise the amounts they promise. Same thing goes with what happens to the money raised. You can guarantee that adding this tax will only increase the debt because the tax is not even represented as a function of raising funds, it is represented as a function of WHAT THEY CAN BUY WITH THE TAX.

IOW, the money would already be spent and even if it is done through reconciliation (which requires it to be deficit neutral iirc) it would still fail as there is zero chance they would actually ties the amount spent with the amount raised.

There are 2 reasons I can see to support something like this:
HFTs are an infringement on the people's freedom - Give me a good reason that the government should be infringing on my freedom to trade as I see fit because that is what you need. Not that more advanced individuals and/or institutions are taking the majority of the gains, that happens in every single field or economic activity in existence. 100 percent of them. There is not a single example of that not being the case. Tell me exactly how those HFTs are infringing on my freedom. Then there is a case to limit them.
or
Taxing HFTs is a necessary and proper source of funding for the federal government. That I think is rather indefensible but then again I think the government should be funded in an even manner without all the special interests, outright thuggish control or specifically targeting small groups of people.

Not liking HFTs because they can be used in a manner you do not agree with is not one of them.
1. HFTs are not "fair", they use super-computers to steal in microseconds. Now if they pass the transaction tax, the HFTs can whine it isn't fair to them. I never gave my consent for HFTs to steal my investment. I'm giving my consent fro the transaction tax.
2. Where does the money that HFTs make come from? That's right, other people's investments. (aka stealing)
3. When 70% of all trades are by HFTs that makes for unnecessary volatility. The 2010 "flash crash" is what happens. We need real investment, not computer theft. The government needs to straighten out the stock markets, a transaction tax is a good start.
4. Proof that HFT is "theft"? What product or service do they sell? Hint: nothing, they just steal other people's investments.
5. I need the government to stop the HFTs computers from stealing our investments. That "theft" infringes on my investment freedom. IT'S THEFT!!
6. We all would pay the transaction tax, its minimal unless you're an HFT. The object is to make more investments "long-term" to create jobs and expand businesses.

Proof that HFT is "theft"? What product or service do they sell? Hint: nothing, they just steal other people's investments.

Have you made money on your investments? Yes?

Thief!!!
1. I invested with companies for a long time, we both profited.
2. HFTs steal in thousandths of a second, its theft.
who are they stealing from?
Investors.
How? If something is for sale, and it's purchased...how is that stealing? Likewise, if they sell something, how are they steeling?
Stock is for sale as an "investment" to provide capital for companies to grow.
If you have a 401K your money is invested in many companies.
HFTs use computers to "milk" the investor's capital using computer algorithms to buy/sell in thousadnths of a second. The money the HFTs steal should be used by companies to grow and hire people, and increase your 401K.
I know what HFT do, but how are they stealing something that is for sale, and they pay for it?
It's "stealing" in the same way that all profits are "theft".
 

Crepitus

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I never thought that I'd ever be on the same side as Ilhan Omar, but here we are.
I support the proposed transaction tax. It will hit the high-speed traders more than me or other "buy and hold" investors.

The argument against it is that high-speed traders will just move off-shore to do their trades, fine.
They are nothing but leeches stealing our 401k investments.


"This (transaction tax) makes financial markets fairer and possibly less volatile. As described by Michael Lewis in Flash Boys, high frequency traders (HFTs) can earn profits by front-running other trades by micro-seconds, an activity that raises costs for legitimate traders and provides no value to society. HFTs account for roughly half all stock trades and much of their business model would be threatened by the proposed transactions tax.
Under current law, someone selling or buying $1,000 of stock pays just over two cents in transaction taxes. This existing fee raises over $1.5 billion per year. The proposal would add a tax of $1 to that transaction."
It would also have a stabilizing effect on the markets.
How so?
If they cost money the frequency not the trades will go down.
 

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