Democrats have moved farther and farther to the right

[eagle1462010]

Some democrats are growing tired of the Democratic party establishment shitting on them and shipping their jobs out of the country while telling them to eat cake.

I really don't know if jobs are being shipped overseas as much as people might think it is. I do agree that companies are seeking to expand into countries where wages are lower in order to save a buck but most companies are not doing that. The image being presented is that every company is fleeing to canada or mexico and that isn't the case. American companies have been moving out since the 80s yet we have also had periods of very high employment so I don't know if that has an overall affect on the economy. It definately does affect local economies who have a plant that employs almost everyone but I don't think it affects the overall economy. I don't agree with Donald Trump's anti-free trade position.

Holy shit do you read the news? How many were just shipped to Mexico from Carrier in NY like 1,400. Nabisco out of Chicago is shipping a plant there. Audi built their new plant in Mexico to build cars for the U.S. market. These dumb ass politicians don't give a rats ass, they heap taxes and regulations onto U.S. businesses to the point that the only way to stay in business is to leave. If your country is not manufacturing goods your country is destined to fail.

This isn't about taxes. Capitalism demands it. Lower wages, less regulation both environmentally and tax wise. less government. Mexico is a bastion of free market capitalism so naturally companies want to move there. everything is cheaper.

unfortunately, no one in America wants to live there because it is a dump. why is mexico a dump? because it has a weak, small government. you want to live in a first world society guess what, you need taxes, you need social services, you need infrastructure. etc etc.

Yeah I see Americans ready to storm Mexico for the lower wage jobs...................and yeah I get your point............we have a different standard of living and regulations here................tariffs level the field........................or you lose all your dang jobs.................

Now you tell me who in this country can work for a bag of taco's a day..................or can pay the rent on tacos......and maybe I'll listen to you..........................

Less Gov't............Less Taxes..........less regulation......absolutely.............you can't tax your way into prosperity...........

We keep losing our jobs at the rates by these BS Trade Deals...our middle Class is gonna get slaughtered........sorry if those facts and your Economics 101 arguments get stepped on in the process.

 

[Nicholas_1982]

Some democrats are growing tired of the Democratic party establishment shitting on them and shipping their jobs out of the country while telling them to eat cake.

I agree. You have actual progressive democrats like Bernie Sanders (who is to progressive to even be a democrat, that's why he always ran for the house and senate and mayor as an independent) Elizabeth Warren, and Tulsi gabbard. but these high profile names are on the fringe of the democratic blue dog center right establishment.

Another example: Marco Rubio proposed a moderate immigration reform policy. Obama (being the blue dog he is) supported it and as soon as Obama supported it Rubio ran away from it to the far right

Still spewing nonsense...............the left voters are flocking to Bernie...............the Free Shit campaign................if that is a move to the right then I have.....



Rubio...........gang of 8.........toasted him completely...............Pro Amnesty in the Republican Party will end you.

Bernie is only winning caucuses, he is losing his ass in popular vote. Bernie sanders will never win the nomination.

again with the partisan hack comments and hyperbole.

Bernie is fringe. Hillary will be the democratic nominee and probably the next president, which is a freakin tragedy of epic proportions

I agree that Bernie is a fringe movement........but he is gathering storm from the left..........which throws your going to the right OP out the window..............

Hillary is just another establishment candidate and YES is a Tragedy................

Especially with the courts...................

But too many are saying they will pick up their toys and go home from the establishment camps.......................while Moderate Dems are jumping ship and going Trump..................who will win that numbers game..............

Trump wins if they don't jump ship....................and yet they go it's my fault when they are saying they will vote Hillary instead of Trump........................

Kinda like a Temper Tantrum..................and then they have the nerve to say it is people like me who will elect Hillary when they are vowing to vote for her.........

I'll take my chances................................I'm not voting establishment..........PERIOD.

I'm agree that Bernie is doing something amazing. Like trump is for the GoP. but whereas trump is winning on the republican side by railing against the establishment, Bernie isn't winning. sure he has started a movement but by every single metric Hillary is still in the lead. the reason Bernie's message isn't resounding as strongly as trumps is because democrats are much more moderate as a whole while republicans are much more extreme as a whole. Just look at the raw numbers. Hillarys vote count, trumps vote count, hilarys delegate lead, trumps delegate lead

 

[Nicholas_1982]

Some democrats are growing tired of the Democratic party establishment shitting on them and shipping their jobs out of the country while telling them to eat cake.

I really don't know if jobs are being shipped overseas as much as people might think it is. I do agree that companies are seeking to expand into countries where wages are lower in order to save a buck but most companies are not doing that. The image being presented is that every company is fleeing to canada or mexico and that isn't the case. American companies have been moving out since the 80s yet we have also had periods of very high employment so I don't know if that has an overall affect on the economy. It definately does affect local economies who have a plant that employs almost everyone but I don't think it affects the overall economy. I don't agree with Donald Trump's anti-free trade position.

Holy shit do you read the news? How many were just shipped to Mexico from Carrier in NY like 1,400. Nabisco out of Chicago is shipping a plant there. Audi built their new plant in Mexico to build cars for the U.S. market. These dumb ass politicians don't give a rats ass, they heap taxes and regulations onto U.S. businesses to the point that the only way to stay in business is to leave. If your country is not manufacturing goods your country is destined to fail.

This isn't about taxes. Capitalism demands it. Lower wages, less regulation both environmentally and tax wise. less government. Mexico is a bastion of free market capitalism so naturally companies want to move there. everything is cheaper.

unfortunately, no one in America wants to live there because it is a dump. why is mexico a dump? because it has a weak, small government. you want to live in a first world society guess what, you need taxes, you need social services, you need infrastructure. etc etc.

Yeah I see Americans ready to storm Mexico for the lower wage jobs...................and yeah I get your point............we have a different standard of living and regulations here................tariffs level the field........................or you lose all your dang jobs.................

Now you tell me who in this country can work for a bag of taco's a day..................or can pay the rent on tacos......and maybe I'll listen to you..........................

Less Gov't............Less Taxes..........less regulation......absolutely.............you can't tax your way into prosperity...........

We keep losing our jobs at the rates by these BS Trade Deals...our middle Class is gonna get slaughtered........sorry if those facts and your Economics 101 arguments get stepped on in the process.

Ok we cant tax our way into prosperity yet mexico has MUCH LOWER taxes than the US and look at how crappy their country is. look at their infrastructure and their society. its garbage. So low taxes on business and individuals prevents you from building a developed society and thus country. Cause those low taxes in mexico have made it so prosperous

now who is making straw man arguments. your claims have no evidence to the nor do they have depth and you never addressed the source I linked

 

[eagle1462010]

Some democrats are growing tired of the Democratic party establishment shitting on them and shipping their jobs out of the country while telling them to eat cake.

I agree. You have actual progressive democrats like Bernie Sanders (who is to progressive to even be a democrat, that's why he always ran for the house and senate and mayor as an independent) Elizabeth Warren, and Tulsi gabbard. but these high profile names are on the fringe of the democratic blue dog center right establishment.

Another example: Marco Rubio proposed a moderate immigration reform policy. Obama (being the blue dog he is) supported it and as soon as Obama supported it Rubio ran away from it to the far right

Still spewing nonsense...............the left voters are flocking to Bernie...............the Free Shit campaign................if that is a move to the right then I have.....



Rubio...........gang of 8.........toasted him completely...............Pro Amnesty in the Republican Party will end you.

Bernie is only winning caucuses, he is losing his ass in popular vote. Bernie sanders will never win the nomination.

again with the partisan hack comments and hyperbole.

Bernie is fringe. Hillary will be the democratic nominee and probably the next president, which is a freakin tragedy of epic proportions

I agree that Bernie is a fringe movement........but he is gathering storm from the left..........which throws your going to the right OP out the window..............

Hillary is just another establishment candidate and YES is a Tragedy................

Especially with the courts...................

But too many are saying they will pick up their toys and go home from the establishment camps.......................while Moderate Dems are jumping ship and going Trump..................who will win that numbers game..............

Trump wins if they don't jump ship....................and yet they go it's my fault when they are saying they will vote Hillary instead of Trump........................

Kinda like a Temper Tantrum..................and then they have the nerve to say it is people like me who will elect Hillary when they are vowing to vote for her.........

I'll take my chances................................I'm not voting establishment..........PERIOD.

I'm agree that Bernie is doing something amazing. Like trump is for the GoP. but whereas trump is winning on the republican side by railing against the establishment, Bernie isn't winning. sure he has started a movement but by every single metric Hillary is still in the lead. the reason Bernie's message isn't resounding as strongly as trumps is because democrats are much more moderate as a whole while republicans are much more extreme as a whole. Just look at the raw numbers. Hillarys vote count, trumps vote count, hilarys delegate lead, trumps delegate lead

The younger crowd is the main flock to Bernie...................the Mob rules when offering bread to the audience while feeding the Christians to the Lions.......................The Free Shit routine has always worked for the Dem base....and that Base is HARD CORE LEFT.

 

[eagle1462010]

Some democrats are growing tired of the Democratic party establishment shitting on them and shipping their jobs out of the country while telling them to eat cake.

I really don't know if jobs are being shipped overseas as much as people might think it is. I do agree that companies are seeking to expand into countries where wages are lower in order to save a buck but most companies are not doing that. The image being presented is that every company is fleeing to canada or mexico and that isn't the case. American companies have been moving out since the 80s yet we have also had periods of very high employment so I don't know if that has an overall affect on the economy. It definately does affect local economies who have a plant that employs almost everyone but I don't think it affects the overall economy. I don't agree with Donald Trump's anti-free trade position.

Holy shit do you read the news? How many were just shipped to Mexico from Carrier in NY like 1,400. Nabisco out of Chicago is shipping a plant there. Audi built their new plant in Mexico to build cars for the U.S. market. These dumb ass politicians don't give a rats ass, they heap taxes and regulations onto U.S. businesses to the point that the only way to stay in business is to leave. If your country is not manufacturing goods your country is destined to fail.

This isn't about taxes. Capitalism demands it. Lower wages, less regulation both environmentally and tax wise. less government. Mexico is a bastion of free market capitalism so naturally companies want to move there. everything is cheaper.

unfortunately, no one in America wants to live there because it is a dump. why is mexico a dump? because it has a weak, small government. you want to live in a first world society guess what, you need taxes, you need social services, you need infrastructure. etc etc.

Yeah I see Americans ready to storm Mexico for the lower wage jobs...................and yeah I get your point............we have a different standard of living and regulations here................tariffs level the field........................or you lose all your dang jobs.................

Now you tell me who in this country can work for a bag of taco's a day..................or can pay the rent on tacos......and maybe I'll listen to you..........................

Less Gov't............Less Taxes..........less regulation......absolutely.............you can't tax your way into prosperity...........

We keep losing our jobs at the rates by these BS Trade Deals...our middle Class is gonna get slaughtered........sorry if those facts and your Economics 101 arguments get stepped on in the process.

Ok we cant tax our way into prosperity yet mexico has MUCH LOWER taxes than the US and look at how crappy their country is. look at their infrastructure and their society. its garbage. So low taxes on business and individuals prevents you from building a developed society and thus country. Cause those low taxes in mexico have made it so prosperous

Mexico is a Garbage dump because of a corrupt to hell and back ruling class.............

A Tariff is a Tax........it is a Consumption tax..........designed to do the things you say.....

Before the income tax and the creation of the IRS............it was the primary source of revenue in this country............1913 before we started the drive to the current Nanny State...........

 

[Nicholas_1982]

I really don't know if jobs are being shipped overseas as much as people might think it is. I do agree that companies are seeking to expand into countries where wages are lower in order to save a buck but most companies are not doing that. The image being presented is that every company is fleeing to canada or mexico and that isn't the case. American companies have been moving out since the 80s yet we have also had periods of very high employment so I don't know if that has an overall affect on the economy. It definately does affect local economies who have a plant that employs almost everyone but I don't think it affects the overall economy. I don't agree with Donald Trump's anti-free trade position.

Holy shit do you read the news? How many were just shipped to Mexico from Carrier in NY like 1,400. Nabisco out of Chicago is shipping a plant there. Audi built their new plant in Mexico to build cars for the U.S. market. These dumb ass politicians don't give a rats ass, they heap taxes and regulations onto U.S. businesses to the point that the only way to stay in business is to leave. If your country is not manufacturing goods your country is destined to fail.

This isn't about taxes. Capitalism demands it. Lower wages, less regulation both environmentally and tax wise. less government. Mexico is a bastion of free market capitalism so naturally companies want to move there. everything is cheaper.

unfortunately, no one in America wants to live there because it is a dump. why is mexico a dump? because it has a weak, small government. you want to live in a first world society guess what, you need taxes, you need social services, you need infrastructure. etc etc.

Yeah I see Americans ready to storm Mexico for the lower wage jobs...................and yeah I get your point............we have a different standard of living and regulations here................tariffs level the field........................or you lose all your dang jobs.................

Now you tell me who in this country can work for a bag of taco's a day..................or can pay the rent on tacos......and maybe I'll listen to you..........................

Less Gov't............Less Taxes..........less regulation......absolutely.............you can't tax your way into prosperity...........

We keep losing our jobs at the rates by these BS Trade Deals...our middle Class is gonna get slaughtered........sorry if those facts and your Economics 101 arguments get stepped on in the process.

Ok we cant tax our way into prosperity yet mexico has MUCH LOWER taxes than the US and look at how crappy their country is. look at their infrastructure and their society. its garbage. So low taxes on business and individuals prevents you from building a developed society and thus country. Cause those low taxes in mexico have made it so prosperous

Mexico is a Garbage dump because of a corrupt to hell and back ruling class.............

A Tariff is a Tax........it is a Consumption tax..........designed to do the things you say.....

Before the income tax and the creation of the IRS............it was the primary source of revenue in this country............1913 before we started the drive to the current Nanny State...........

appearently we are argueing 2 different things.

My claim is that you need taxes to build infrastructure and provide social services/social programs. these are the essence of 1st world democracies.

Mexico has very low taxes and provides cheap labor to the US. that's why their country is doing so poorly. There is a direct relationship between tax money being invested into the well being and development of a country and its society and the success of that country.

A country that doesn't effectively tax its citizenry and use that money to build up the country and its citizenry is doomed to not be a 1st world country. corruption is the result of greed and poverty inherent in a capitalist only system

 

[eagle1462010]

Holy shit do you read the news? How many were just shipped to Mexico from Carrier in NY like 1,400. Nabisco out of Chicago is shipping a plant there. Audi built their new plant in Mexico to build cars for the U.S. market. These dumb ass politicians don't give a rats ass, they heap taxes and regulations onto U.S. businesses to the point that the only way to stay in business is to leave. If your country is not manufacturing goods your country is destined to fail.

This isn't about taxes. Capitalism demands it. Lower wages, less regulation both environmentally and tax wise. less government. Mexico is a bastion of free market capitalism so naturally companies want to move there. everything is cheaper.

unfortunately, no one in America wants to live there because it is a dump. why is mexico a dump? because it has a weak, small government. you want to live in a first world society guess what, you need taxes, you need social services, you need infrastructure. etc etc.

Yeah I see Americans ready to storm Mexico for the lower wage jobs...................and yeah I get your point............we have a different standard of living and regulations here................tariffs level the field........................or you lose all your dang jobs.................

Now you tell me who in this country can work for a bag of taco's a day..................or can pay the rent on tacos......and maybe I'll listen to you..........................

Less Gov't............Less Taxes..........less regulation......absolutely.............you can't tax your way into prosperity...........

We keep losing our jobs at the rates by these BS Trade Deals...our middle Class is gonna get slaughtered........sorry if those facts and your Economics 101 arguments get stepped on in the process.

Ok we cant tax our way into prosperity yet mexico has MUCH LOWER taxes than the US and look at how crappy their country is. look at their infrastructure and their society. its garbage. So low taxes on business and individuals prevents you from building a developed society and thus country. Cause those low taxes in mexico have made it so prosperous

Mexico is a Garbage dump because of a corrupt to hell and back ruling class.............

A Tariff is a Tax........it is a Consumption tax..........designed to do the things you say.....

Before the income tax and the creation of the IRS............it was the primary source of revenue in this country............1913 before we started the drive to the current Nanny State...........

appearently we are argueing 2 different things.

My claim is that you need taxes to build infrastructure and provide social services/social programs. these are the essence of 1st world democracies.

Mexico has very low taxes and provides cheap labor to the US. that's why their country is doing so poorly. There is a direct relationship between tax money being invested into the well being and development of a country and its society and the success of that country.

A country that doesn't effectively tax its citizenry and use that money to build up the country and its citizenry is doomed to not be a 1st world country. corruption is the result of greed and poverty inherent in a capitalist only system

Your argument is they need higher taxes to succeed..............LOL

Tell me how those making less than $5 a day are gonna pay for the infrastructure and better living......

ROFLMAO..................the Big Corps PAY TO PLAY the corrupt gov't there.....and then have no enviro standards, no labor standards, no health care requirements, and etc......................and RAKE THE PROFITS IN............................

Those Mexicans working there are surviving and that's about it..................Mexico has dug it's on hole...........Pardon me if I'm NOT willing to AID THAT SHIT............I don't like seeing Americans losing their jobs here and standard of living so FORD can make a killing in Mexico.....................

That is what Tariffs are for........to level the playing field..........and Free Trade isn't Free.............there are duties and fees associated with it...........

It is an establishment WTO court system where they Sue us to change our own laws.......It's BS.

 

[Weatherman2020]

Democrats openly embrace socialism now.

yes they do, our frontrunner Hillary Clinton is a warhawk who hates universal single payer and she also hates taxing the rich so we can all have a free college education. 2 free things she is completely opposed to, so what else is she socialist about?

What color is the sky in your world.
You're just trolling the board now.

 

[kiwiman127]

I see a lot of forum posts on here about how the democratic party has become more left wing and radical over the years.

Most of these claims are not supported by any evidence. Usually its just partisan hacks making absurd claims.

I have made some of these arguments here but because I am stubborn I will make the case again.

In the U.S. we once had a 2 party system. Unfortunately, The GoP has moved to the extreme right and in the process has pulled the Democratic party to the center right.

Now granted, there are a few liberal politicians but they are on the fringe, politicians like Bernie Sanders and Elizabeth Warren.

The first issue where the Democratic party has moved to the right is healthcare.

The ACA, or as pundits call it Obamacare, was a healthcare policy originally endorsed by 2 prominent Republicans. Bob Dole and Mitt Romney, both presidential Candidates, were vocal advocates of healthcare legislation that we now call Obamacare. In Mass. it was actually passed.

Bob Dole 1996 On The Issues Health Care

There is Bob Dole's official healthcare platform from his 1996 campaign website.

Barack Obama and previously Bill Clinton completely abandoned the liberal position of universal single payer healthcare. Obama even stripped the public option from the ACA.

The second issue where the Democratic party has moved to the right is military.

The liberal foreign policy agenda is usually more pacifist and non interventionist. But, if we look at the past 7 years under Barack Obama he has done multiple things to contradict this.

1. Obama has GREATLY expanded the drone war program that began during the Bush years. We are not conducting military operations in MORE countries (primarily Africa and the Middle East) than under the previous administration.

2. Even though Obama initially withdrew military forces from Iraq he has gradually been sending special operations and other ground forces back into the middle east under the guise of "advisors". This has allowed for troop deployments without having to justify it to the American people.

The third issue where Democrats have been moving to the right is economic policy.

1. Where has the minimum wage increase been from the president? It's still sitting at $7.25 per hour. In fact the last piece of federal legislation was Fair Minimum Wage Act of 2007. If we know our history, it was a Republican president who last raised the minimum wage.

2. Historically, liberals have been opposed to tax dollars funding large corporations and defense contractors. Unfortunately Barack Obama has done the opposite.

The ACA, while being called socialist or government insurance by pundits, has actually been a HUGE
boon to private insurance. Blue Cross and United healthcare have been lining their pockets to the tune of $$ billions since passage of the ACA

Lets not forget Bill Clinton repealed glass stegall

Let's not forget the bailouts to corporate America.

Let's not forget the subsidized loans to companies like Solyndra andTesla.

Lets not forget all the fossil fuel deductions and tax credits under Obama https://www.treasury.gov/open/Documents/USA FFSR progress report to G20 2014 Final.pdf

of course there are more and more examples:

1. extending the bush tax cuts for the rich
2. reauthorization of the USA patriot act
3. Gitmo is still open
4. private prisons still a booming business
etc etc.

So next time someone says the democratic establishment has moved to the left they are clearly full of shit

You're completely full of it. The arguments are made here everyday and many many other places. Like most libs, if you don't believe it, it doesn't exist. Bob Dole didn't get far with his health plan, I don't see how linking obamacare to it makes a valid point.

Of course the insurance companies are doing better, they wrote the fucking law! Mandate a service on the federal level and see if it goes up or down. The left has been trying hard but the party of no seems to foil their agenda.

The FACT is you can no longer distinguish between the Democratic party and a socialist. That's moving left, so much so they think we've been moving to the right.

Weasel,wouldn't letting capitalist insurance companies basically writing the "fucking law" be defiling the basic principles of socialism?
The right's version of socialism isn't even close to actual real socialism. There is a vast, vast difference between socialized medicine and Obamacare. (Which I never supported because of the mandates).
The fact that the Dems being in bed with America's healthcare insurance companies as much as the GOP is pretty obvious.
As long as this trend continues, Americans and American businesses will continue getting raped by the cost of healthcare.
Regarding the OP, there is no way the Dems have moved to the center. The center is the largest voting demographic, yet is the most unrepresented in Washington, thanks to both parties moving further and further from the center. That is a fucking shame and is basically taxation without representation.

 

[Nicholas_1982]

This isn't about taxes. Capitalism demands it. Lower wages, less regulation both environmentally and tax wise. less government. Mexico is a bastion of free market capitalism so naturally companies want to move there. everything is cheaper.

unfortunately, no one in America wants to live there because it is a dump. why is mexico a dump? because it has a weak, small government. you want to live in a first world society guess what, you need taxes, you need social services, you need infrastructure. etc etc.

Yeah I see Americans ready to storm Mexico for the lower wage jobs...................and yeah I get your point............we have a different standard of living and regulations here................tariffs level the field........................or you lose all your dang jobs.................

Now you tell me who in this country can work for a bag of taco's a day..................or can pay the rent on tacos......and maybe I'll listen to you..........................

Less Gov't............Less Taxes..........less regulation......absolutely.............you can't tax your way into prosperity...........

We keep losing our jobs at the rates by these BS Trade Deals...our middle Class is gonna get slaughtered........sorry if those facts and your Economics 101 arguments get stepped on in the process.

Ok we cant tax our way into prosperity yet mexico has MUCH LOWER taxes than the US and look at how crappy their country is. look at their infrastructure and their society. its garbage. So low taxes on business and individuals prevents you from building a developed society and thus country. Cause those low taxes in mexico have made it so prosperous

Mexico is a Garbage dump because of a corrupt to hell and back ruling class.............

A Tariff is a Tax........it is a Consumption tax..........designed to do the things you say.....

Before the income tax and the creation of the IRS............it was the primary source of revenue in this country............1913 before we started the drive to the current Nanny State...........

appearently we are argueing 2 different things.

My claim is that you need taxes to build infrastructure and provide social services/social programs. these are the essence of 1st world democracies.

Mexico has very low taxes and provides cheap labor to the US. that's why their country is doing so poorly. There is a direct relationship between tax money being invested into the well being and development of a country and its society and the success of that country.

A country that doesn't effectively tax its citizenry and use that money to build up the country and its citizenry is doomed to not be a 1st world country. corruption is the result of greed and poverty inherent in a capitalist only system

Your argument is they need higher taxes to succeed..............LOL

Tell me how those making less than $5 a day are gonna pay for the infrastructure and better living......

ROFLMAO..................the Big Corps PAY TO PLAY the corrupt gov't there.....and then have no enviro standards, no labor standards, no health care requirements, and etc......................and RAKE THE PROFITS IN............................

Those Mexicans working there are surviving and that's about it..................Mexico has dug it's on hole...........Pardon me if I'm NOT willing to AID THAT SHIT............I don't like seeing Americans losing their jobs here and standard of living so FORD can make a killing in Mexico.....................

That is what Tariffs are for........to level the playing field..........and Free Trade isn't Free.............there are duties and fees associated with it...........

It is an establishment WTO court system where they Sue us to change our own laws.......It's BS.

I am not proposing taxing the wages more of the worker making $3 an hour. I am saying America is great because of our political system and economic system. they work together. individuals and corporations have to ability to make massive sums of money, and a percentage of that money is used for the betterment of the country.

I am not going to argue for or against tariffs. I am not an economist.

My point is you cant have a 1st world society based on 3rd world economics, which mexico is proof of

 

[Nicholas_1982]

I see a lot of forum posts on here about how the democratic party has become more left wing and radical over the years.

Most of these claims are not supported by any evidence. Usually its just partisan hacks making absurd claims.

I have made some of these arguments here but because I am stubborn I will make the case again.

In the U.S. we once had a 2 party system. Unfortunately, The GoP has moved to the extreme right and in the process has pulled the Democratic party to the center right.

Now granted, there are a few liberal politicians but they are on the fringe, politicians like Bernie Sanders and Elizabeth Warren.

The first issue where the Democratic party has moved to the right is healthcare.

The ACA, or as pundits call it Obamacare, was a healthcare policy originally endorsed by 2 prominent Republicans. Bob Dole and Mitt Romney, both presidential Candidates, were vocal advocates of healthcare legislation that we now call Obamacare. In Mass. it was actually passed.

Bob Dole 1996 On The Issues Health Care

There is Bob Dole's official healthcare platform from his 1996 campaign website.

Barack Obama and previously Bill Clinton completely abandoned the liberal position of universal single payer healthcare. Obama even stripped the public option from the ACA.

The second issue where the Democratic party has moved to the right is military.

The liberal foreign policy agenda is usually more pacifist and non interventionist. But, if we look at the past 7 years under Barack Obama he has done multiple things to contradict this.

1. Obama has GREATLY expanded the drone war program that began during the Bush years. We are not conducting military operations in MORE countries (primarily Africa and the Middle East) than under the previous administration.

2. Even though Obama initially withdrew military forces from Iraq he has gradually been sending special operations and other ground forces back into the middle east under the guise of "advisors". This has allowed for troop deployments without having to justify it to the American people.

The third issue where Democrats have been moving to the right is economic policy.

1. Where has the minimum wage increase been from the president? It's still sitting at $7.25 per hour. In fact the last piece of federal legislation was Fair Minimum Wage Act of 2007. If we know our history, it was a Republican president who last raised the minimum wage.

2. Historically, liberals have been opposed to tax dollars funding large corporations and defense contractors. Unfortunately Barack Obama has done the opposite.

The ACA, while being called socialist or government insurance by pundits, has actually been a HUGE
boon to private insurance. Blue Cross and United healthcare have been lining their pockets to the tune of $$ billions since passage of the ACA

Lets not forget Bill Clinton repealed glass stegall

Let's not forget the bailouts to corporate America.

Let's not forget the subsidized loans to companies like Solyndra andTesla.

Lets not forget all the fossil fuel deductions and tax credits under Obama https://www.treasury.gov/open/Documents/USA FFSR progress report to G20 2014 Final.pdf

of course there are more and more examples:

1. extending the bush tax cuts for the rich
2. reauthorization of the USA patriot act
3. Gitmo is still open
4. private prisons still a booming business
etc etc.

So next time someone says the democratic establishment has moved to the left they are clearly full of shit

You're completely full of it. The arguments are made here everyday and many many other places. Like most libs, if you don't believe it, it doesn't exist. Bob Dole didn't get far with his health plan, I don't see how linking obamacare to it makes a valid point.

Of course the insurance companies are doing better, they wrote the fucking law! Mandate a service on the federal level and see if it goes up or down. The left has been trying hard but the party of no seems to foil their agenda.

The FACT is you can no longer distinguish between the Democratic party and a socialist. That's moving left, so much so they think we've been moving to the right.

Weasel,wouldn't letting capitalist insurance companies basically writing the "fucking law" be defiling the basic principles of socialism?
The right's version of socialism isn't even close to actual real socialism. There is a vast, vast difference between socialized medicine and Obamacare. (Which I never supported because of the mandates).
The fact that the Dems being in bed with America's healthcare insurance companies as much as the GOP is pretty obvious.
As long as this trend continues, Americans and American businesses will continue getting raped by the cost of healthcare.
Regarding the OP, there is no way the Dems have moved to the center. The center is the largest voting demographic, yet is the most unrepresented in Washington, thanks to both parties moving further and further from the center. That is a fucking shame and is basically taxation without representation.

Again, a partisan hack response.

I presented specific policy positions in the OP and you made some generic response with zero substance. if you want to have a debate over specific policy positions we can do that, I am prepared

 

[BluesLegend]

Some democrats are growing tired of the Democratic party establishment shitting on them and shipping their jobs out of the country while telling them to eat cake.

I really don't know if jobs are being shipped overseas as much as people might think it is. I do agree that companies are seeking to expand into countries where wages are lower in order to save a buck but most companies are not doing that. The image being presented is that every company is fleeing to canada or mexico and that isn't the case. American companies have been moving out since the 80s yet we have also had periods of very high employment so I don't know if that has an overall affect on the economy. It definately does affect local economies who have a plant that employs almost everyone but I don't think it affects the overall economy. I don't agree with Donald Trump's anti-free trade position.

Holy shit do you read the news? How many were just shipped to Mexico from Carrier in NY like 1,400. Nabisco out of Chicago is shipping a plant there. Audi built their new plant in Mexico to build cars for the U.S. market. These dumb ass politicians don't give a rats ass, they heap taxes and regulations onto U.S. businesses to the point that the only way to stay in business is to leave. If your country is not manufacturing goods your country is destined to fail.

This isn't about taxes. Capitalism demands it. Lower wages, less regulation both environmentally and tax wise. less government. Mexico is a bastion of free market capitalism so naturally companies want to move there. everything is cheaper.

unfortunately, no one in America wants to live there because it is a dump. why is mexico a dump? because it has a weak, small government. you want to live in a first world society guess what, you need taxes, you need social services, you need infrastructure. etc etc.

America will become the new Mexico with no manufacturing base. Money doesn't grow on trees.

 

[BluesLegend]

Some democrats are growing tired of the Democratic party establishment shitting on them and shipping their jobs out of the country while telling them to eat cake.

I really don't know if jobs are being shipped overseas as much as people might think it is. I do agree that companies are seeking to expand into countries where wages are lower in order to save a buck but most companies are not doing that. The image being presented is that every company is fleeing to canada or mexico and that isn't the case. American companies have been moving out since the 80s yet we have also had periods of very high employment so I don't know if that has an overall affect on the economy. It definately does affect local economies who have a plant that employs almost everyone but I don't think it affects the overall economy. I don't agree with Donald Trump's anti-free trade position.

Holy shit do you read the news? How many were just shipped to Mexico from Carrier in NY like 1,400. Nabisco out of Chicago is shipping a plant there. Audi built their new plant in Mexico to build cars for the U.S. market. These dumb ass politicians don't give a rats ass, they heap taxes and regulations onto U.S. businesses to the point that the only way to stay in business is to leave. If your country is not manufacturing goods your country is destined to fail.

Is every company in the United States doing that? 1400 jobs sounds like a lot but it is 1400 out of millions so we have to put this in some kind of proportion.

You need to get out more.

 

[BluesLegend]

Any immigration policy favorable to illegals is DOA and its their own damn fault. Illegals are killing over 3,000 American citizens each year, more than were killed on 9-11. The number of illegal on American citizen crimes is staggering. Illegals are a net loss to our economy. They are a burden on social services. They traffic drugs into our country stringing out our kids on that shit. Why the fuck would we give people like that citizenship? We wouldn't, THAT'S why we have standards you have to meet to immigrate legally and most of these illegals do not qualify.

Hyperbole at it's finest.

I have looked at a lot of the immigration policies this election cycle. No candidate wants a completely open border. Even Bernie, who is softest on immigration, still wants a screening process with standards.

Love the partisan hack posts.

Kasich probably has the most realistic policy

How many American citizens need to suffer at the hands of illegals pick a number and a side.

the purpose of this thread wasn't for me to pick a side EVEN THOUGH I just said Kasich probably has the best immigration plan

the purpose of this thread was to demonstrate how the democratic establishment has abandoned many liberal ideologies. the democratic establishment has move to the center right.

I listed numerous different policy positions with some citations but instead of us actually debating policy all I keep getting are hack comments with no substance

Substance, over 3,000 American citizens killed each year by illegals there's substance for you. Over $4 billion a year stolen by illegals via fraudulent tax returns there's some more substance. Illegals have taken over the meth trafficing in American, FACT as documented by National Geographic.

bold claim, please link the articles. I have seen the studies that 1st generation immigrants are less likely to commit crimes so I would like to see where you got your info

First-Generation Immigrants Less Likely to Commit Serious Crimes - News Center - The University of Texas at Dallas

It was front page news this week, do I look like your social studies tutor?

 

[Iceweasel]

I see a lot of forum posts on here about how the democratic party has become more left wing and radical over the years.

Most of these claims are not supported by any evidence. Usually its just partisan hacks making absurd claims.

I have made some of these arguments here but because I am stubborn I will make the case again.

In the U.S. we once had a 2 party system. Unfortunately, The GoP has moved to the extreme right and in the process has pulled the Democratic party to the center right.

Now granted, there are a few liberal politicians but they are on the fringe, politicians like Bernie Sanders and Elizabeth Warren.

The first issue where the Democratic party has moved to the right is healthcare.

The ACA, or as pundits call it Obamacare, was a healthcare policy originally endorsed by 2 prominent Republicans. Bob Dole and Mitt Romney, both presidential Candidates, were vocal advocates of healthcare legislation that we now call Obamacare. In Mass. it was actually passed.

Bob Dole 1996 On The Issues Health Care

There is Bob Dole's official healthcare platform from his 1996 campaign website.

Barack Obama and previously Bill Clinton completely abandoned the liberal position of universal single payer healthcare. Obama even stripped the public option from the ACA.

The second issue where the Democratic party has moved to the right is military.

The liberal foreign policy agenda is usually more pacifist and non interventionist. But, if we look at the past 7 years under Barack Obama he has done multiple things to contradict this.

1. Obama has GREATLY expanded the drone war program that began during the Bush years. We are not conducting military operations in MORE countries (primarily Africa and the Middle East) than under the previous administration.

2. Even though Obama initially withdrew military forces from Iraq he has gradually been sending special operations and other ground forces back into the middle east under the guise of "advisors". This has allowed for troop deployments without having to justify it to the American people.

The third issue where Democrats have been moving to the right is economic policy.

1. Where has the minimum wage increase been from the president? It's still sitting at $7.25 per hour. In fact the last piece of federal legislation was Fair Minimum Wage Act of 2007. If we know our history, it was a Republican president who last raised the minimum wage.

2. Historically, liberals have been opposed to tax dollars funding large corporations and defense contractors. Unfortunately Barack Obama has done the opposite.

The ACA, while being called socialist or government insurance by pundits, has actually been a HUGE
boon to private insurance. Blue Cross and United healthcare have been lining their pockets to the tune of $$ billions since passage of the ACA

Lets not forget Bill Clinton repealed glass stegall

Let's not forget the bailouts to corporate America.

Let's not forget the subsidized loans to companies like Solyndra andTesla.

Lets not forget all the fossil fuel deductions and tax credits under Obama https://www.treasury.gov/open/Documents/USA FFSR progress report to G20 2014 Final.pdf

of course there are more and more examples:

1. extending the bush tax cuts for the rich
2. reauthorization of the USA patriot act
3. Gitmo is still open
4. private prisons still a booming business
etc etc.

So next time someone says the democratic establishment has moved to the left they are clearly full of shit

You're completely full of it. The arguments are made here everyday and many many other places. Like most libs, if you don't believe it, it doesn't exist. Bob Dole didn't get far with his health plan, I don't see how linking obamacare to it makes a valid point.

Of course the insurance companies are doing better, they wrote the fucking law! Mandate a service on the federal level and see if it goes up or down. The left has been trying hard but the party of no seems to foil their agenda.

The FACT is you can no longer distinguish between the Democratic party and a socialist. That's moving left, so much so they think we've been moving to the right.

Weasel,wouldn't letting capitalist insurance companies basically writing the "fucking law" be defiling the basic principles of socialism?
The right's version of socialism isn't even close to actual real socialism. There is a vast, vast difference between socialized medicine and Obamacare. (Which I never supported because of the mandates).
The fact that the Dems being in bed with America's healthcare insurance companies as much as the GOP is pretty obvious.
As long as this trend continues, Americans and American businesses will continue getting raped by the cost of healthcare.
Regarding the OP, there is no way the Dems have moved to the center. The center is the largest voting demographic, yet is the most unrepresented in Washington, thanks to both parties moving further and further from the center. That is a fucking shame and is basically taxation without representation.

The left wants to close that very wide gap between obamacare and single payer socialism. But is isn't socialism until government takes it over. It's crony capitalism so it's well on its' way.

Many on the right (not GOP necessarily) want reforms and a freer marketplace. obicare is the wrong answer.

 

[MACAULAY]

further right, man that cracked me up

I've watched over 35 years from them being more moderate with the blue dog dems. to watching them all be kicked out by people like Pelosi, Reid, Hillary, Obama, etc to be what they are today. So far left they are inching towards, Fascism and communist.

__________________________________

After reading the first page of this thread, this is the post I most agree with...and I completely disagree with the O. P. The Democratic Party is sooo far left, I don't think it would admit John F. Kennedy today, and I don't think he would want to join.

But, one thing is remarkable. The O. P. engaged in Political Discourse. He made and explained his points.

You just don't get that from liberals anymore....their philosophy is so bankrupt, it can't be defended without saying flat out "I'm a Socialist" which is why ole Bern is having some success. He's actually honest....and he is up against the most pathological liar out there.

At any rate....I don't agree with a word the O.P. said, but I commend him for undertaking to explain himself...instead of just going with the usual Left-Wing elementary school name-calling.

 

[Nicholas_1982]

further right, man that cracked me up

I've watched over 35 years from them being more moderate with the blue dog dems. to watching them all be kicked out by people like Pelosi, Reid, Hillary, Obama, etc to be what they are today. So far left they are inching towards, Fascism and communist.

__________________________________

After reading the first page of this thread, this is the post I most agree with...and I completely disagree with the O. P. The Democratic Party is sooo far left, I don't think it would admit John F. Kennedy today, and I don't think he would want to join.

But, one thing is remarkable. The O. P. engaged in Political Discourse. He made and explained his points.

You just don't get that from liberals anymore....their philosophy is so bankrupt, it can't be defended without saying flat out "I'm a Socialist" which is why ole Bern is having some success. He's actually honest....and he is up against the most pathological liar out there.

At any rate....I don't agree with a word the O.P. said, but I commend him for undertaking to explain himself...instead of just going with the usual Left-Wing elementary school name-calling.

I am not a liberal nor am I am conservative. I think both parties have ideas that are both constructive and destructive.

Policy over party

Example: single payer healthcare good idea, open borders bad idea

 

[MACAULAY]

Some democrats are growing tired of the Democratic party establishment shitting on them and shipping their jobs out of the country while telling them to eat cake.

I agree. You have actual progressive democrats like Bernie Sanders (who is to progressive to even be a democrat, that's why he always ran for the house and senate and mayor as an independent) Elizabeth Warren, and Tulsi gabbard. but these high profile names are on the fringe of the democratic blue dog center right establishment.

Another example: Marco Rubio proposed a moderate immigration reform policy. Obama (being the blue dog he is) supported it and as soon as Obama supported it Rubio ran away from it to the far right

Still spewing nonsense...............the left voters are flocking to Bernie...............the Free Shit campaign................if that is a move to the right then I have.....



Rubio...........gang of 8.........toasted him completely...............Pro Amnesty in the Republican Party will end you.

Bernie is only winning caucuses, he is losing his ass in popular vote. Bernie sanders will never win the nomination.

again with the partisan hack comments and hyperbole.

Bernie is fringe. Hillary will be the democratic nominee and probably the next president, which is a freakin tragedy of epic proportions

Bernie gets more donations from the average person than Hillary. I don't know if he is the fringe.

sure he is raising money, but AGAIN, she is kicking his ass in popular vote. explain that? if he can win the nomination with fewer delegates and fewer popular votes that will be impressive

_______________

I will undertake to explain it. She got almost every Black vote in the South. She smoked the Bern, solely with the Black vote, in states like Texas, Mississippi, Louisiana, Alabama, South Carolina....states she will never win in November no matter who the Republican Candidate is. That accounts for her popular vote lead and they will do her no good at all in the General Election.

The Bern smoked her in Michigan. I think that is more significant than all the Black votes she got in the South. If they hate her in Michigan, she's got problems.

How far Left are you if you get ALL the Black votes? They are the most natural Socialist voters in the nation...The Bern just wasn't able to explain that to them in time.

And, why did Blacks vote for Hillary....because they liked her husband...the very man who has handed her everything she has ever supposedly done for herself. How about it? The First Woman President will have gotten to the White House with the biggest Man-Crutch in history.

Except for the Blacks, who I suspect are just confused, The Bern is now the norm for the Democratic Party---i.e. Socialism...which of course is why I disagree with everything you said in the O.P.

__--_

 

[Nicholas_1982]

I agree. You have actual progressive democrats like Bernie Sanders (who is to progressive to even be a democrat, that's why he always ran for the house and senate and mayor as an independent) Elizabeth Warren, and Tulsi gabbard. but these high profile names are on the fringe of the democratic blue dog center right establishment.

Another example: Marco Rubio proposed a moderate immigration reform policy. Obama (being the blue dog he is) supported it and as soon as Obama supported it Rubio ran away from it to the far right

Still spewing nonsense...............the left voters are flocking to Bernie...............the Free Shit campaign................if that is a move to the right then I have.....



Rubio...........gang of 8.........toasted him completely...............Pro Amnesty in the Republican Party will end you.

Bernie is only winning caucuses, he is losing his ass in popular vote. Bernie sanders will never win the nomination.

again with the partisan hack comments and hyperbole.

Bernie is fringe. Hillary will be the democratic nominee and probably the next president, which is a freakin tragedy of epic proportions

Bernie gets more donations from the average person than Hillary. I don't know if he is the fringe.

sure he is raising money, but AGAIN, she is kicking his ass in popular vote. explain that? if he can win the nomination with fewer delegates and fewer popular votes that will be impressive

_______________

I will undertake to explain it. She got almost every Black vote in the South. She smoked the Bern, solely with the Black vote, in states like Texas, Mississippi, Louisiana, Alabama, South Carolina....states she will never win in November no matter who the Republican Candidate is. That accounts for her popular vote lead and they will do her no good at all in the General Election.

The Bern smoked her in Michigan. I think that is more significant than all the Black votes she got in the South. If they hate her in Michigan, she's got problems.

How far Left are you if you get ALL the Black votes? They are the most natural Socialist voters in the nation...The Bern just wasn't able to explain that to them in time.

And, why did Blacks vote for Hillary....because they liked her husband...the very man who has handed her everything she has ever supposedly done for herself. How about it? The First Woman President will have gotten to the White House with the biggest Man-Crutch in history.

Except for the Blacks, who I suspect are just confused, The Bern is now the norm for the Democratic Party---i.e. Socialism...which of course is why I disagree with everything you said in the O.P.

__--_

And the Obama policies the past 8 years that I listed in the OP that are just original GoP positions that Obama either adopted or expanded?

 

[MACAULAY]

further right, man that cracked me up

I've watched over 35 years from them being more moderate with the blue dog dems. to watching them all be kicked out by people like Pelosi, Reid, Hillary, Obama, etc to be what they are today. So far left they are inching towards, Fascism and communist.

__________________________________

After reading the first page of this thread, this is the post I most agree with...and I completely disagree with the O. P. The Democratic Party is sooo far left, I don't think it would admit John F. Kennedy today, and I don't think he would want to join.

But, one thing is remarkable. The O. P. engaged in Political Discourse. He made and explained his points.

You just don't get that from liberals anymore....their philosophy is so bankrupt, it can't be defended without saying flat out "I'm a Socialist" which is why ole Bern is having some success. He's actually honest....and he is up against the most pathological liar out there.

At any rate....I don't agree with a word the O.P. said, but I commend him for undertaking to explain himself...instead of just going with the usual Left-Wing elementary school name-calling.

I am not a liberal nor am I am conservative. I think both parties have ideas that are both constructive and destructive.

Policy over party

Example: single payer healthcare good idea, open borders bad idea

________________________________

You have a right to categorize yourself, and I have right to buy it or not. I think...that if you think...the Democratic Party has moved to the Right...then your view is from way...way...way...out in Left Field.....eating a hot dog with The Bern in Yankee Stadium kind of Left Field.

But, I appreciate the civil discussion...first one I've had in my two years here...with a Liberal without being called a Rube, Racist, or "Hater Dupe" in the very first response. And, I think you are just young, and therefore confused.

You may have heard this before, but to make sure....every young person should hear Winston Churchill's famous assessment...as young as possible:

"If you are not a Liberal when you are 20, you have no Heart; and if you are not a Conservative when you are 40, you have no Brain".

Take note of that every couple of years and see if ole Winston doesn't impress you more as the time goes by. He was half crazy you know....and a Genius...and with the best set of balls of the 20th Century (unless it was Margaret Thatcher who had them.) Churchill fought in the Boer War when he was young...and later said that "the most exhilarating thing in the world is to be shot at without effect."

You are a Liberal son, but with a brain. Read everything Thomas Jefferson ever wrote...all his letters....everything, I mean everything, Mark Twain ever wrote...he and Jefferson are America's greatest Philosophers so far...one is also the Soul of the Country, the other is also its best writer...read the first chapter of Go Down Moses...read that three times, you will need to, because Faulkner doesn't tell you everything the first time....DO these things and you will be well prepared to get on with a successful life...in spite of your current youthful confusion.
_______