Delegitimising Israel: Nobody does it better than the Israelis themselves

[Hollie]

In my experience, whenever there is criticism Israeli policies and treatment of Arabs/Palestinians, it is customarily and falsely assumed that all such posters are anti-Jewish.

Things that are NOT valid criticism of Israel:

Delegitimization

• denial of Israel's right to exist
• denial of the Jewish people's rights to independence, self-determination or a State
• denial of the Jewish people's rights to safety and security (including the right to self defense)
• denial of the history of the Jewish people in the land
• denial of the connection of the Jewish people to the territory
• denial of the existence of the Jewish people as a people
• disqualifying the Jewish people from being a people
• unequal assignation of the rights of Palestinians and Jews ("Palestinian land" and stolen land)
• requirement for the Jewish State not to be fundamentally identified as State for the Jewish people
• non-factual statements played as being factual (1967 "borders")

Demonization

• any of the common anti-semitic canards
• assigning responsibility for the continued conflict only to the Jews or Israelis
• using negative emotive language when discussing Jews or Jewish Israelis ("routinely murder")
• softening the language when discussing Palestinian acts or behaviours ("resistance")
• ascribing genocide or apartheid to Jews or Israelis
• claiming evil intent on the part of Jews or Israelis
• any reference to Hitler, Nazis or the Shoah not directly related to those occurences and their time

95% of the conversations on this forum center around the above. And 100% of them eventually devolve in various forms of delegitimization in particular. Almost no one actually discusses Israeli policy.

Now, to be fair, Team Israel also has habits which are detrimental to the conversations with their own brand of delegitimizing and demonization: claiming Palestine doesn't exist, "islamo-nazi", dehumanization, implying all Arabs or all Muslims are terrorists, calls for ethnic cleansing and genocide.

I am not that familiar with this forum to know for sure that your statistics are correct but not everyone who holds some of the opinions in your two long lists makes them antisemites. So, for example, I believe Israel was founded on stolen Palestinian land and I also believe Israel for its occupation of Palestine, the West Bank, including East Jerusalem, and Gaza, thus assigning responsibility for the continued conflict only on the Israelis. I am not, however, antisemitic.

Israel was founded on stolen Palestinian land™

This false statement has been addressed in excruciating detail so I can only believe it is ignorance and/or agenda that causes someone to sputter such a pointless slogan.

 

[Shusha]

I am not that familiar with this forum to know for sure that your statistics are correct but not everyone who holds some of the opinions in your two long lists makes them antisemites. So, for example, I believe Israel was founded on stolen Palestinian land and I also believe Israel for its occupation of Palestine, the West Bank, including East Jerusalem, and Gaza, thus assigning responsibility for the continued conflict only on the Israelis. I am not, however, antisemitic.

I didn't say that people who held these opinions were anti-semitic. I said it was not valid criticism of Israel. But since you brought it up....

Let's talk about stolen Palestinian land. What land was Palestinian land? Why was it Palestinian land? What made it Palestinian land?

What land was Israeli land? Why was it Israeli land? What made it Israeli land?

If land somewhere in the territory is empty and open for building upon is it Palestinian land or Israeli land? Can Arab Palestinians build on that land? Can Jews build on that land?

If you can convince me that you give the same rights to both peoples I will agree that you are not delegitimizing Israel and the Jewish people. I don't think you can, but give it your best shot.

 

[Shusha]

I also believe Israel for its occupation of Palestine, the West Bank, including East Jerusalem, and Gaza, thus assigning responsibility for the continued conflict only on the Israelis. I am not, however, antisemitic.

I think you mean "blame" rather than believe?

You are legitimizing conflict perpetrated by the Palestinians while delegitimizing conflict perpetrated by Israel. Why the double standard? Why is it permissible for a Palestinian to stab a Jew while it is not permissible for a Jew to stab an Arab? Why are Palestinians permitted to "defend themselves" in the form of attacks against innocents, but Jews are not permitted to defend themselves in the form of attacks against innocents or even combatants?

Seems to me you have different rules and "rights" for different people.

 

[Eloy]

I am not that familiar with this forum to know for sure that your statistics are correct but not everyone who holds some of the opinions in your two long lists makes them antisemites. So, for example, I believe Israel was founded on stolen Palestinian land and I also believe Israel for its occupation of Palestine, the West Bank, including East Jerusalem, and Gaza, thus assigning responsibility for the continued conflict only on the Israelis. I am not, however, antisemitic.

I didn't say that people who held these opinions were anti-semitic. I said it was not valid criticism of Israel. But since you brought it up....

Let's talk about stolen Palestinian land. What land was Palestinian land? Why was it Palestinian land? What made it Palestinian land?

What land was Israeli land? Why was it Israeli land? What made it Israeli land?

If land somewhere in the territory is empty and open for building upon is it Palestinian land or Israeli land? Can Arab Palestinians build on that land? Can Jews build on that land?

If you can convince me that you give the same rights to both peoples I will agree that you are not delegitimizing Israel and the Jewish people. I don't think you can, but give it your best shot.

Based on my limited experience on internet boards, I am convinced that nothing I write will persuade you to change your opinions. In other words, I would likely waste my time and yours. As a courtesy, I will answer your questions as best I can:

What land was Palestinian land?
Palestinian land is the land of the Palestine.

Why was it Palestinian land?
It was Palestinian land because it was named so.

What made it Palestinian land?
It was made Palestinian land by the people in classical times by Greeks and later Romans as the province of Syria Palaestina.

What land was Israeli land?
Israeli land was (and is) the land of the Jewish state of Israel.

Why was it Israeli land?
It was (and is) Israeli land because it forms the Jewish state of Israel.

What made it Israeli land?
It became Israeli land when the Jewish state of Israel was founded in 1948.

If land somewhere in the territory is empty and open for building upon is it Palestinian land or Israeli land?
Whether land is Palestinian or Israeli depends on whether it is in the Jewish state of Israel or the state of Palestine.

Can Arab Palestinians build on that land? Can Jews build on that land?
Yes, Arab Palestinians and Jews have the moral right to build on land in the Jewish state of Israel and in the state of Palestine. Unfortunately, the Israeli government restricts Arab-Israelis from building in Israel and Palestinians under occupation have onerous restrictions from building in their homeland. Palestinians who build in Gaza have homes and infrastructure of schools and hospitals and water treatment plants destroyed every decade or so.

 

[Eloy]

I also believe Israel for its occupation of Palestine, the West Bank, including East Jerusalem, and Gaza, thus assigning responsibility for the continued conflict only on the Israelis. I am not, however, antisemitic.

I think you mean "blame" rather than believe?

You are legitimizing conflict perpetrated by the Palestinians while delegitimizing conflict perpetrated by Israel. Why the double standard? Why is it permissible for a Palestinian to stab a Jew while it is not permissible for a Jew to stab an Arab? Why are Palestinians permitted to "defend themselves" in the form of attacks against innocents, but Jews are not permitted to defend themselves in the form of attacks against innocents or even combatants?

Seems to me you have different rules and "rights" for different people.

Yes, I mean blame and believe. What the Israel Defense Force does in the occupied territories of Palestine is government policy and must, therefore, accept blame for their actions. As a government policy, the Jewish state of Israel must be held accountable. Individual acts of resistance by some Palestinians are acting on their own and are of a different order. For this reason, the odious policy of the Israeli government to collectively punish the children and families for acts of resistance by individuals or rogue groups is criminal.

 

[Shusha]

What land was Palestinian land?
Palestinian land is the land of the Palestine.

Why was it Palestinian land?
It was Palestinian land because it was named so.

You can do better than that.

It was also named Israel, Judea and Samaria. So why isn't it Israeli, Judean and Samarian land? Jordan was also once named Palestine, so is Jordan also stolen "Palestinian land"? Why or why not? Is France stolen Aquitane land?

Who has the rights to sovereignty in "Palestine"? Do those rights extend to seceding? Is secession stealing?

 

[Phoenall]

In my experience, whenever there is criticism Israeli policies and treatment of Arabs/Palestinians, it is customarily and falsely assumed that all such posters are anti-Jewish.

Things that are NOT valid criticism of Israel:

Delegitimization

• denial of Israel's right to exist
• denial of the Jewish people's rights to independence, self-determination or a State
• denial of the Jewish people's rights to safety and security (including the right to self defense)
• denial of the history of the Jewish people in the land
• denial of the connection of the Jewish people to the territory
• denial of the existence of the Jewish people as a people
• disqualifying the Jewish people from being a people
• unequal assignation of the rights of Palestinians and Jews ("Palestinian land" and stolen land)
• requirement for the Jewish State not to be fundamentally identified as State for the Jewish people
• non-factual statements played as being factual (1967 "borders")

Demonization

• any of the common anti-semitic canards
• assigning responsibility for the continued conflict only to the Jews or Israelis
• using negative emotive language when discussing Jews or Jewish Israelis ("routinely murder")
• softening the language when discussing Palestinian acts or behaviours ("resistance")
• ascribing genocide or apartheid to Jews or Israelis
• claiming evil intent on the part of Jews or Israelis
• any reference to Hitler, Nazis or the Shoah not directly related to those occurences and their time

95% of the conversations on this forum center around the above. And 100% of them eventually devolve in various forms of delegitimization in particular. Almost no one actually discusses Israeli policy.

Now, to be fair, Team Israel also has habits which are detrimental to the conversations with their own brand of delegitimizing and demonization: claiming Palestine doesn't exist, "islamo-nazi", dehumanization, implying all Arabs or all Muslims are terrorists, calls for ethnic cleansing and genocide.

I am not that familiar with this forum to know for sure that your statistics are correct but not everyone who holds some of the opinions in your two long lists makes them antisemites. So, for example, I believe Israel was founded on stolen Palestinian land and I also believe Israel for its occupation of Palestine, the West Bank, including East Jerusalem, and Gaza, thus assigning responsibility for the continued conflict only on the Israelis. I am not, however, antisemitic.

And this after being shown that international law of the time was responcible for the creation of Israel, and that the arab muslims were illegal immigrants. This is denial of the Jews rights to independence, self determination, safety and security and a homeland

 

[Shusha]

Yes, I mean blame and believe. What the Israel Defense Force does in the occupied territories of Palestine is government policy and must, therefore, accept blame for their actions.

What does the IDF do in the "occupied territories". Be specific both about the behaviours and the territory (ie Area A, Gaza).

As a government policy, the Jewish state of Israel must be held accountable.

Should Hamas and the PA (also governments) also be held accountable? Why or why not?

Individual acts of resistance by some Palestinians are acting on their own and are of a different order. For this reason, the odious policy of the Israeli government to collectively punish the children and families for acts of resistance by individuals or rogue groups is criminal.

Ah. There you go! You have moved ALL the way from "Israel is to blame for the on-going conflict" to "it is an odious policy for the Israeli government to punish the families of those individuals who commit (terrorist attacks)". NOW you are actually giving valid criticism of Israel. Keep it up. (And, btw, I agree with you.)

 

[Eloy]

What land was Palestinian land?
Palestinian land is the land of the Palestine.

Why was it Palestinian land?
It was Palestinian land because it was named so.

You can do better than that.

It was also named Israel, Judea and Samaria. So why isn't it Israeli, Judean and Samarian land? Jordan was also once named Palestine, so is Jordan also stolen "Palestinian land"? Why or why not? Is France stolen Aquitane land?

Who has the rights to sovereignty in "Palestine"? Do those rights extend to seceding? Is secession stealing?

No, I cannot do better. Perhaps someone else can answer your questions.

 

[Shusha]

No, I cannot do better. Perhaps someone else can answer your questions.

I would suggest that you can't answer the questions because it will reveal that you, in fact, hold two different sets of "rights" for two different peoples. Perhaps you were not aware of it yourself until presented with it. But there it is.

 

[P F Tinmore]

What land was Israeli land? Why was it Israeli land? What made it Israeli land?

Good question.

Israel has never legally acquired any land.

 

[montelatici]

No, I cannot do better. Perhaps someone else can answer your questions.

I would suggest that you can't answer the questions because it will reveal that you, in fact, hold two different sets of "rights" for two different peoples. Perhaps you were not aware of it yourself until presented with it. But there it is.

How could Europeans have had the right to expel the native people of Palestine, subjugate the native people and steal their land?

 

[montelatici]

At least 85% of the land was owned by the Palestinian Arab population, another 8% was owned by non-Jews, non-Palestinians and only 6% was owned by the Zionist Jews. So, in large part (85%) the land was stolen from the Palestinian natives, Muslims and Christians by the European Jews.

"UNITED
NATIONS
A

• 
  General Assembly

A/364
3 September 1947

"164. The Arab population, despite the strenuous efforts of Jews to acquire land in Palestine, at present remains in possession of approximately 85 per cent of the land."

A/364 of 3 September 1947

 

[P F Tinmore]

What land was Palestinian land?
Palestinian land is the land of the Palestine.

Why was it Palestinian land?
It was Palestinian land because it was named so.

You can do better than that.

It was also named Israel, Judea and Samaria. So why isn't it Israeli, Judean and Samarian land? Jordan was also once named Palestine, so is Jordan also stolen "Palestinian land"? Why or why not? Is France stolen Aquitane land?

Who has the rights to sovereignty in "Palestine"? Do those rights extend to seceding? Is secession stealing?

Palestine was the successor state to Turkey by treaty.

Israel was the successor state to Palestine by military force.

There is a legal problem with the latter.

 

[Hollie]

What land was Palestinian land?
Palestinian land is the land of the Palestine.

Why was it Palestinian land?
It was Palestinian land because it was named so.

You can do better than that.

It was also named Israel, Judea and Samaria. So why isn't it Israeli, Judean and Samarian land? Jordan was also once named Palestine, so is Jordan also stolen "Palestinian land"? Why or why not? Is France stolen Aquitane land?

Who has the rights to sovereignty in "Palestine"? Do those rights extend to seceding? Is secession stealing?

Palestine was the successor state to Turkey by treaty.

Israel was the successor state to Palestine by military force.

There is a legal problem with the latter.

There is a problem with the latter. The Jewish people declared independence and stated their intent to establish self-determination. It was the muhammedans who crossed the territory to attack.

 

[montelatici]

Nope, the Arab League forces didn't cross into the Jewish partition. The fighting took place in the Arab partition where the Arab League forces tried to expel the Jewish invaders, and in the International sector which was successfully taken by the Arab League to prevent the Jews from invading and expelling the non-Jews.

The Jews invaded the Arab partition conquered Arab cities and destroyed Arab towns long before the declaration of independence or the Arab League's intervention.

For example, Jaffa had been under Jew attack for months before the city surrendered to the Jews on May 13, 1948. Two days before the Jews declared independence.

"Jaffa surrendered to forces of the Haganah on May 13, 1948, two days before the State of Israel was declared.
read more: Why did Palestinian Jaffa fall more quickly than Jerusalem in 1948?

So, as usual, you just post lies.

 

[fanger]

The zionist terror groups declared independence from whom?

 

[fanger]

Some jewish people defend israeli crimes not because they are Israeli, but rather they identify as jews, that has to be racism sasha t?

 

[Shusha]

Israel has never legally acquired any land.

Israel acquired sovereignty over land.

 

[Shusha]

Palestine was the successor state to Turkey by treaty.

The Jewish National Home was the successor state by treaty. You can call it "Palestine" if it makes you feel better but its was and is still the Jewish National Home (now called Israel, again).