Definitive Proof that GOD Exists?

[Hollie]

Been away from this thread a few days, living life... Amazing, I see a few more pages have been added, and the above exchange is about the only thing said, that is on topic. The rest of it seems to be theological arguments about the bible and Christian interpretation of god.

This question is for the Christians AND the god-haters... Can god not be imagined in any other incarnation than theological ones? Because, it seems like this debate keeps being steered toward a theological tit-for-tat, which never accomplishes a thing. This is precisely why I refused to allow my OP to be perverted into a theological argument. I've tried to avoid turning the thread into the same old argument based on understanding of religion and religious disagreement.

Religions are evidence of man's intrinsic connection to spirituality. Even the bible and Christianity, are man's understanding and interpretations of this spiritual power. The Bible and Christians can be proven completely wrong, and spiritual god can still exist. Defeating the Christian incarnation of god, doesn't defeat the argument for god. Defeating the incarnation of any "god" does not disprove all spiritual power greater than self.

That's silly. Religions are evidence of mans' fears and superstitions. That's precisely why gods have been abandoned as mankind has evolved and learned. The gods of fire, thunder, lightning, etc., have all been superseded by knowledge of the natural world. That's also why the many gods of the past have been replaced by a one-stop shopping god of convenience.

Of course. Every god, with time, is swept away and looked upon as myth.

Where is the worship of Osiris? Of Isis, worshipped for 5,000 years. Where is Zeus, Odin, Jupiter? Where are the Druids, now as silent as Stonehenge, as cold and as silent as the Sphinx.

Dust, all. Antiquities. History suggests it will be with Jehovah, Allah, Jesus, Vishnu.

It’s already happening, and as science makes them less relevant, we see the rise in fundamentalism. Why is Islam so reactionary? Why are fundie Christians so willfully ignorant? Because the adherents sense all around them the growing tide of humanism. Islam defames the U.S. and Russia and other nations as godless because… well, because as time goes on we do grow more godless. And as time goes by, and gods don’t return to this earth, as gods don’t prove salvation, we grow yet further away from fantasy and fiction. And that terrifies the believers. Ultimately, you know there is only faith and belief to support the “belief”. As mankind grows in scientific knowledge, those things once ascribed to the gods are taken away, leaving the gods to sit and judge, nothing more, and even of that, only the dead, a state of being no one ever returns from to testify whether or not the claims are true.

Yahweh has been around for atleast 6,000 years with and without the scriptures. The Almighty is not going anywhere.

And as noted, human invented gawds come and go, as will Yahweh, Jehovah or whatever other name you ascribe to your gawds.

 

[Boss]

That's silly. Religions are evidence of mans' fears and superstitions. That's precisely why gods have been abandoned as mankind has evolved and learned. The gods of fire, thunder, lightning, etc., have all been superseded by knowledge of the natural world. That's also why the many gods of the past have been replaced by a one-stop shopping god of convenience.

Religions are evidence of man's spirituality, not superstition and fear, and we can prove this. Superstitious belief and fear of the unknown has been largely tackled by Science, which has been around 1,200-1,500 years or so. As science has explained natural phenomenon, we see a precipitous drop in those who adhere to superstition and superstitious belief. We see fear of the unknown vanish in the light of knowledge through scientific understanding. What we DO NOT see, is any sort of real change in human spirituality. The gods of fire, thunder and lightning, did not vanish whenever science explained these phenomenon, that happened many many years before, with the advent of monotheism. So what you are doing, is painting an abstract tapestry of various conjectures that are simply not realistic or true, in order to prop up a theory that fails.

Of course. Every god, with time, is swept away and looked upon as myth.

Where is the worship of Osiris? Of Isis, worshipped for 5,000 years. Where is Zeus, Odin, Jupiter? Where are the Druids, now as silent as Stonehenge, as cold and as silent as the Sphinx.

They certainly didn't vanish because of science which hadn't been invented.

Dust, all. Antiquities. History suggests it will be with Jehovah, Allah, Jesus, Vishnu.

Perhaps, but these are RELIGIONS, not human spirituality. It is such an important distinction, I have made it clearly throughout this thread, and continue to correct those who wish to make this a debate about religion or religious incarnations of god. Just as old outdated science is abandoned, so is old outdated religion. Unchanged, is human spiritual nature. It remains, just as human inquisitiveness remains.

It’s already happening, and as science makes them less relevant, we see the rise in fundamentalism. Why is Islam so reactionary? Why are fundie Christians so willfully ignorant? Because the adherents sense all around them the growing tide of humanism.

This is just not true. Through all the ages, religion has come and gone, humans have moved away from religious beliefs and then moved back toward them. Today, nearly 95% of humans believe in something greater than self, and about 5% are Nihilists, who believe in nothing greater than self. That statistic is virtually unchanged throughout mankind. Levels or degrees of religious faith, may change dramatically, or even fade away entirely from time to time, but human spirituality remains as strong as ever. Science simply hasn't rendered human spirituality irrelevant, or the problems with radicalism would not exist. You've not proven your point, although, you have helped to support my argument.

Islam defames the U.S. and Russia and other nations as godless because… well, because as time goes on we do grow more godless. And as time goes by, and gods don’t return to this earth, as gods don’t prove salvation, we grow yet further away from fantasy and fiction. And that terrifies the believers. Ultimately, you know there is only faith and belief to support the “belief”. As mankind grows in scientific knowledge, those things once ascribed to the gods are taken away, leaving the gods to sit and judge, nothing more, and even of that, only the dead, a state of being no one ever returns from to testify whether or not the claims are true.

But science has not killed human spirituality, far from it. When you start speaking of gods returning to this earth, salvation, judgement, afterlife, you are speaking of religious beliefs, which are the byproduct of human spirituality. I do not argue religious beliefs, I don't have religious beliefs, I am a spiritualist, I believe in spiritual nature. I am not terrified by science, which can never prove there is no god, and can never prove there is no need for human spirituality.

The more you talk, the more you reaffirm that this is about your disdain for religion, and you don't comprehend the difference between religion and spirituality.

 

[Montrovant]

You continue to make it sound as though science has answered all of humanity's questions, Boss, which is clearly untrue. Science also does not provide comfort, nor give a guideline for living life as religions do.

Sure, many things that were once thought of as divine or magical have been explained through science. Humanity knows a lot more than it once did. But there are still plenty of questions, there are still plenty of hopes, there are still plenty of fears, all of which can be answered by various religions. If nothing else, simple fear of death remains a huge draw; most religions have some sort of afterlife, which I imagine can be a huge comfort in the face of death.

Your argument that we should see less belief in religion or the supernatural because of scientific advancement is wrong IMO. What we have seen is just what might be expected, a refinement of those beliefs, a trimming away of those things which can no longer be explained through supernatural means.

You give humanity and science far too much credit if you think our scientific advancement has progressed so far that, barring the spiritual connection you posit, religious and supernatural beliefs should no longer exist.

 

[Youwerecreated]

I believe that when a person dies that is it it described in the bible like a state of sleep. I believe we are just a memory until the resurrection. I believe the spirit of a person is the breathe of life and I believe the soul is the blood. A living breathing organism is a living soul. If the blood of the organism is lost the soul is dead. If the breathe of an organism is lost that soul dies.

 

[daws101]

Another of my responses goes unanswered.

Give me a summary of what you're ?

Honestly, you seem to have a desperate need for confirmation from me as to the existence of your magical gawds. I'm afraid that I have no means, methods or mechanisms to confirm your super-magical gawds.

Don't flatter yourself I am just exposing your Ideological agenda one post at a time.

another classic false declaration

 

[daws101]

I believe that when a person dies that is it it described in the bible like a state of sleep. I believe we are just a memory until the resurrection. I believe the spirit of a person is the breathe of life and I believe the soul is the blood. A living breathing organism is a living soul. If the blood of the organism is lost the soul is dead. If the breathe of an organism is lost that soul dies.

belief is only evidence of belief nothing more..
oh yeah, dead is dead...

 

[Boss]

You continue to make it sound as though science has answered all of humanity's questions, Boss, which is clearly untrue. Science also does not provide comfort, nor give a guideline for living life as religions do.

Sure, many things that were once thought of as divine or magical have been explained through science. Humanity knows a lot more than it once did. But there are still plenty of questions, there are still plenty of hopes, there are still plenty of fears, all of which can be answered by various religions. If nothing else, simple fear of death remains a huge draw; most religions have some sort of afterlife, which I imagine can be a huge comfort in the face of death.

Your argument that we should see less belief in religion or the supernatural because of scientific advancement is wrong IMO. What we have seen is just what might be expected, a refinement of those beliefs, a trimming away of those things which can no longer be explained through supernatural means.

You give humanity and science far too much credit if you think our scientific advancement has progressed so far that, barring the spiritual connection you posit, religious and supernatural beliefs should no longer exist.

First, you need to divorce yourself from religion when thinking about this topic, otherwise, you will continue to assume religion and spirituality are the same thing. Just set aside religions for a minute, and think in terms of human spirit. As Breeze pointed out brilliantly, "LIFE" is spiritual. The magical thing that we call "life" and "living" is a spiritual thing, not physical. Yes, physical things are happening to perpetuate a state known as living, but the actual state itself is spiritual.

There are indeed many unknowns, even with the best science. The questions of "WHY?" are often not even addressed by science, they can't be. For instance, we don't know why the properties of electricity behave as they do, we know how, we don't know why. We can explain how we see things in color, but why? Science is inadequate at explaining the WHY part. This is where spirituality comes into play, and it has been around since man discovered fire.

Now, we have to ask ourselves, why are humans the only creatures of life who have this need for comfort, explanation of the unknown, fear of death, etc.? We don't see dogs and cats trying to figure it all out, or being afraid of dying. This is purely an exclusive human attribute....curiously, we are also the only living things that have spirituality and worship. I do not believe that is a coincidence. So what you are basically explaining spirituality with, could also be the result of spiritual connection. We need comfort and explanation because we are spiritually connected, while other forms of life are not. Meaning, you have your assumption reversed. We're not spiritual because we need comfort and explanation, we need comfort and explanation because we are spiritual.

 

[Montrovant]

You continue to make it sound as though science has answered all of humanity's questions, Boss, which is clearly untrue. Science also does not provide comfort, nor give a guideline for living life as religions do.

Sure, many things that were once thought of as divine or magical have been explained through science. Humanity knows a lot more than it once did. But there are still plenty of questions, there are still plenty of hopes, there are still plenty of fears, all of which can be answered by various religions. If nothing else, simple fear of death remains a huge draw; most religions have some sort of afterlife, which I imagine can be a huge comfort in the face of death.

Your argument that we should see less belief in religion or the supernatural because of scientific advancement is wrong IMO. What we have seen is just what might be expected, a refinement of those beliefs, a trimming away of those things which can no longer be explained through supernatural means.

You give humanity and science far too much credit if you think our scientific advancement has progressed so far that, barring the spiritual connection you posit, religious and supernatural beliefs should no longer exist.

First, you need to divorce yourself from religion when thinking about this topic, otherwise, you will continue to assume religion and spirituality are the same thing. Just set aside religions for a minute, and think in terms of human spirit. As Breeze pointed out brilliantly, "LIFE" is spiritual. The magical thing that we call "life" and "living" is a spiritual thing, not physical. Yes, physical things are happening to perpetuate a state known as living, but the actual state itself is spiritual.

There are indeed many unknowns, even with the best science. The questions of "WHY?" are often not even addressed by science, they can't be. For instance, we don't know why the properties of electricity behave as they do, we know how, we don't know why. We can explain how we see things in color, but why? Science is inadequate at explaining the WHY part. This is where spirituality comes into play, and it has been around since man discovered fire.

Now, we have to ask ourselves, why are humans the only creatures of life who have this need for comfort, explanation of the unknown, fear of death, etc.? We don't see dogs and cats trying to figure it all out, or being afraid of dying. This is purely an exclusive human attribute....curiously, we are also the only living things that have spirituality and worship. I do not believe that is a coincidence. So what you are basically explaining spirituality with, could also be the result of spiritual connection. We need comfort and explanation because we are spiritually connected, while other forms of life are not. Meaning, you have your assumption reversed. We're not spiritual because we need comfort and explanation, we need comfort and explanation because we are spiritual.

Why humans are the only creatures asking these questions is easily answered. We are the only ones CAPABLE of doing so. I'm really not sure why any other explanation is needed.

We are, minus some minor examples, the only species to commonly use tools. We are the only species to have advanced any form of technology. We are the only species that, as far as we can tell, use a complex language. There are many things humanity does that other animal species do not, almost all of which are a result of our higher intelligence.

More, I am certain I could find many people who would say that at least some animals seek out comfort, just not explanation. Your dog doesn't need you to provide reasons for why it is in pain, but it will look for comfort when it hurts.

You bring up human worship and spirituality as though they are the only unique aspect to humanity. You describe the differences between humans and other animal species as though we are not more intelligent than those species, as though other species are known for having the ability to ask the questions that humans do. If you cannot accept that humanity is the only species that can ask such questions (as far as we are aware) then there is no reason to continue this line of discussion. You are, as you love to accuse others, being closed minded in such a case.

As to removing religion from the discussion, it is YOU who has brought up religion and worship as your major evidence of the existence of the spiritual.

To the idea that life is spiritual....*sigh*. Once again, a clear definition is needed or it is a statement with no real meaning. Fine, life is spiritual. What does that mean? What is it about life that makes it spiritual? If life is spiritual, why are humans the only creatures with a spiritual connection? What evidence is there that life is spiritual?

This continues to be a matter of you assigning explanations that don't actually explain anything, throwing the word spiritual around as though it answers questions when there is no clear definition for how you are using the word in the first place. At this point I consider your definition of spiritual to be, "anything for which there is no answer".

 

[Boss]

Your argument that we should see less belief in religion or the supernatural because of scientific advancement is wrong IMO.

You are entitled to your opinion, but this isn't a matter of opinion. Simple logic dictates, if spirituality existed solely because man needs a way to explain the unexplained, then as man explained these things through science, spirituality would have all but vanished, like superstition. Once was the time, people adhered to superstitious beliefs... religiously! As science explained natural phenomenon, these beliefs faded away or remained as a quaint novelty. But science, as amazing as it has been, simply has not replaced the need in humans to be spiritually connected. In fact, some of the greatest scientists have also been very spiritually inclined. Newton transcribed most of the Protestant bible in his later years, and penned many religious writings. Francis Collins, the man who mapped the human genome, is a Christian. Even some of Steven Hawkins observations include the consideration of a non-physical part of our universe that we aren't aware of in the physical.

 

[daws101]

Your argument that we should see less belief in religion or the supernatural because of scientific advancement is wrong IMO.

You are entitled to your opinion, but this isn't a matter of opinion. Simple logic dictates, if spirituality existed solely because man needs a way to explain the unexplained, then as man explained these things through science, spirituality would have all but vanished, like superstition. Once was the time, people adhered to superstitious beliefs... religiously! As science explained natural phenomenon, these beliefs faded away or remained as a quaint novelty. But science, as amazing as it has been, simply has not replaced the need in humans to be spiritually connected. In fact, some of the greatest scientists have also been very spiritually inclined. Newton transcribed most of the Protestant bible in his later years, and penned many religious writings. Francis Collins, the man who mapped the human genome, is a Christian. Even some of Steven Hawkins observations include the consideration of a non-physical part of our universe that we aren't aware of in the physical.

isn't a matter of opinion? spiritualty is all opinion...especially when you factor out the unprovable "spiritual evidence".

 

[Derideo_Te]

Your argument that we should see less belief in religion or the supernatural because of scientific advancement is wrong IMO.

You are entitled to your opinion, but this isn't a matter of opinion. Simple logic dictates, if spirituality existed solely because man needs a way to explain the unexplained, then as man explained these things through science, spirituality would have all but vanished, like superstition. Once was the time, people adhered to superstitious beliefs... religiously! As science explained natural phenomenon, these beliefs faded away or remained as a quaint novelty. But science, as amazing as it has been, simply has not replaced the need in humans to be spiritually connected. In fact, some of the greatest scientists have also been very spiritually inclined. Newton transcribed most of the Protestant bible in his later years, and penned many religious writings. Francis Collins, the man who mapped the human genome, is a Christian. Even some of Steven Hawkins observations include the consideration of a non-physical part of our universe that we aren't aware of in the physical.

States of mind are not superceeded by scientific knowledge. Entering into a trance state (AKA spirituality) via prayer, meditation, etc can be measured by medical equipment. Ergo it is physical not spiritual.

Your ignorance is boundless. Newton was an alchemist who would have been burned at the stake if his real views on religion became widely known. He did extensive studying into the occult and even wrote an apocalyptic prophecy for 2060.

 

[Boss]

You continue to make it sound as though science has answered all of humanity's questions, Boss, which is clearly untrue. Science also does not provide comfort, nor give a guideline for living life as religions do.

Sure, many things that were once thought of as divine or magical have been explained through science. Humanity knows a lot more than it once did. But there are still plenty of questions, there are still plenty of hopes, there are still plenty of fears, all of which can be answered by various religions. If nothing else, simple fear of death remains a huge draw; most religions have some sort of afterlife, which I imagine can be a huge comfort in the face of death.

Your argument that we should see less belief in religion or the supernatural because of scientific advancement is wrong IMO. What we have seen is just what might be expected, a refinement of those beliefs, a trimming away of those things which can no longer be explained through supernatural means.

You give humanity and science far too much credit if you think our scientific advancement has progressed so far that, barring the spiritual connection you posit, religious and supernatural beliefs should no longer exist.

First, you need to divorce yourself from religion when thinking about this topic, otherwise, you will continue to assume religion and spirituality are the same thing. Just set aside religions for a minute, and think in terms of human spirit. As Breeze pointed out brilliantly, "LIFE" is spiritual. The magical thing that we call "life" and "living" is a spiritual thing, not physical. Yes, physical things are happening to perpetuate a state known as living, but the actual state itself is spiritual.

There are indeed many unknowns, even with the best science. The questions of "WHY?" are often not even addressed by science, they can't be. For instance, we don't know why the properties of electricity behave as they do, we know how, we don't know why. We can explain how we see things in color, but why? Science is inadequate at explaining the WHY part. This is where spirituality comes into play, and it has been around since man discovered fire.

Now, we have to ask ourselves, why are humans the only creatures of life who have this need for comfort, explanation of the unknown, fear of death, etc.? We don't see dogs and cats trying to figure it all out, or being afraid of dying. This is purely an exclusive human attribute....curiously, we are also the only living things that have spirituality and worship. I do not believe that is a coincidence. So what you are basically explaining spirituality with, could also be the result of spiritual connection. We need comfort and explanation because we are spiritually connected, while other forms of life are not. Meaning, you have your assumption reversed. We're not spiritual because we need comfort and explanation, we need comfort and explanation because we are spiritual.

Why humans are the only creatures asking these questions is easily answered. We are the only ones CAPABLE of doing so. I'm really not sure why any other explanation is needed.

Why are we the only living things capable of this, and also, the only living things who are spiritually connected? I agree, we are capable, but why? And why hasn't any other living thing, achieved this capability or anything remotely similar? You see, I think all our unique attributes of human imagination, creativity, cognitive reasoning, inquisitiveness, humanity, wisdom, intelligence, etc.,etc.,etc..., come from our other unique attribute, our ability to connect spiritually to some power greater than self. This is the thing that makes us different from a chimp who shares 98% of our DNA.

We are, minus some minor examples, the only species to commonly use tools. We are the only species to have advanced any form of technology. We are the only species that, as far as we can tell, use a complex language. There are many things humanity does that other animal species do not, almost all of which are a result of our higher intelligence.

Again, I believe it is not a coincidence we are also very spiritual and spiritually connected to something greater than self, which drives human ambition. Our species is certainly not superior at everything, have you figured out what birds are saying to each other when they sing? Why bees and ants can find their way back home or organize and work together in colonies and hives? Why birds can migrate back and forth to the same nests, year after year, generation after generation? Lots of things are better than humans at doing certain things, but we are the ones who have advanced our species to where we are. Spirituality is a big big part of that, regardless of how much you'd like to dismiss it.

You bring up human worship and spirituality as though they are the only unique aspect to humanity. You describe the differences between humans and other animal species as though we are not more intelligent than those species, as though other species are known for having the ability to ask the questions that humans do. If you cannot accept that humanity is the only species that can ask such questions (as far as we are aware) then there is no reason to continue this line of discussion. You are, as you love to accuse others, being closed minded in such a case.

Well, I think I just addressed this in my last paragraph, but again, I realize where man is and how intelligent we are, but I also realize we have been intrinsically and inseparably tied to spirituality for all of our existence as well. I don't think this is coincidental, and I don't think you can use our success to explain away the very thing that led to our success.

As to removing religion from the discussion, it is YOU who has brought up religion and worship as your major evidence of the existence of the spiritual.

But this is because you demand some sort of evidence. I am not claiming religion is right and the god I am referring to in the OP is the god of Abe. I have repeatedly made the clarification, I am speaking of god as a metaphor, for whatever it is humans are connected to spiritually, because they most certainly have been connected to something. I think this connection sometimes manifests itself into an undesirable religious belief, but for me, that is just more evidence that humans do make some kind of spiritual connection to something.

To the idea that life is spiritual....*sigh*. Once again, a clear definition is needed or it is a statement with no real meaning. Fine, life is spiritual. What does that mean? What is it about life that makes it spiritual? If life is spiritual, why are humans the only creatures with a spiritual connection? What evidence is there that life is spiritual?

You can explain how life works physically, you can't explain why. It just does. We have things that are inorganic, which simply exist as matter. And we have things which are organic, and these are special, they have a special attribute the inorganic things do not have. They are "blessed" with the ability to grow. Taken to their simplest molecule, they are made up of exactly the same things as the inorganic, but there is something which makes them different. We can explain how these things work, the various chemicals reacting, etc. But we can not explain WHY?

Why are humans the only creatures with spiritual connection? Why are humans the only creatures to achieve what humans have achieved? ...I think the answer is the same for both questions.

This continues to be a matter of you assigning explanations that don't actually explain anything, throwing the word spiritual around as though it answers questions when there is no clear definition for how you are using the word in the first place. At this point I consider your definition of spiritual to be, "anything for which there is no answer".

I keep hearing that I have not explained "spiritual" in this thread, and I wish you people would stop lying. Really. I mean, the first time or two, I figured you may have missed my explanation and so I repeated it. But this is getting tiresome and old real fast. For the last time, I will explain this to you: Spiritual means non-physical. Spiritual nature means, the realm of our universe that is not of the physical realm, defined by physical nature. This could be another dimension we are incapable of recognizing from our physical realm. I do not profess to know the answer to that. I do know this spiritual realm exists, because I connect to it daily, as humans have been doing since we arose from the muck, apparently.

The OP makes clear that we must first define what we mean by each word, before we engage in a debate of the question. I pointed all of this out there, and I have repeated it throughout the thread, and to come in here on page 47 and claim this hasn't been sufficiently established, is very intellectually dishonest.

 

[Montrovant]

Your argument that we should see less belief in religion or the supernatural because of scientific advancement is wrong IMO.

You are entitled to your opinion, but this isn't a matter of opinion. Simple logic dictates, if spirituality existed solely because man needs a way to explain the unexplained, then as man explained these things through science, spirituality would have all but vanished, like superstition. Once was the time, people adhered to superstitious beliefs... religiously! As science explained natural phenomenon, these beliefs faded away or remained as a quaint novelty. But science, as amazing as it has been, simply has not replaced the need in humans to be spiritually connected. In fact, some of the greatest scientists have also been very spiritually inclined. Newton transcribed most of the Protestant bible in his later years, and penned many religious writings. Francis Collins, the man who mapped the human genome, is a Christian. Even some of Steven Hawkins observations include the consideration of a non-physical part of our universe that we aren't aware of in the physical.

As I already said, you are making the huge mistake of assuming science has explained all the things which the religious and supernatural explained in the past. That is exceedingly strange considering your admitting that science can often explain the how but not the why.

So which is it? Can science explain all of the why's, which would lead to no need for the spiritual explanations, or is science still in the dark about many issues, some of them long-standing, profound philosophic questions, leaving plenty of things for the religious, supernatural and spiritual to answer?

 

[Boss]

Your argument that we should see less belief in religion or the supernatural because of scientific advancement is wrong IMO.

You are entitled to your opinion, but this isn't a matter of opinion. Simple logic dictates, if spirituality existed solely because man needs a way to explain the unexplained, then as man explained these things through science, spirituality would have all but vanished, like superstition. Once was the time, people adhered to superstitious beliefs... religiously! As science explained natural phenomenon, these beliefs faded away or remained as a quaint novelty. But science, as amazing as it has been, simply has not replaced the need in humans to be spiritually connected. In fact, some of the greatest scientists have also been very spiritually inclined. Newton transcribed most of the Protestant bible in his later years, and penned many religious writings. Francis Collins, the man who mapped the human genome, is a Christian. Even some of Steven Hawkins observations include the consideration of a non-physical part of our universe that we aren't aware of in the physical.

isn't a matter of opinion? spiritualty is all opinion...especially when you factor out the unprovable "spiritual evidence".

That spirituality exists is not an opinion. Humans have practiced it for at least 70k years.

Spiritual evidence is provable if you accept spiritual nature and existence, it is only unprovable physically. We've been over this, it's a logical dichotomy that can't be met. If you prove the spiritual with physical, you have rendered it physical in the process.

 

[Boss]

Your argument that we should see less belief in religion or the supernatural because of scientific advancement is wrong IMO.

You are entitled to your opinion, but this isn't a matter of opinion. Simple logic dictates, if spirituality existed solely because man needs a way to explain the unexplained, then as man explained these things through science, spirituality would have all but vanished, like superstition. Once was the time, people adhered to superstitious beliefs... religiously! As science explained natural phenomenon, these beliefs faded away or remained as a quaint novelty. But science, as amazing as it has been, simply has not replaced the need in humans to be spiritually connected. In fact, some of the greatest scientists have also been very spiritually inclined. Newton transcribed most of the Protestant bible in his later years, and penned many religious writings. Francis Collins, the man who mapped the human genome, is a Christian. Even some of Steven Hawkins observations include the consideration of a non-physical part of our universe that we aren't aware of in the physical.

As I already said, you are making the huge mistake of assuming science has explained all the things which the religious and supernatural explained in the past. That is exceedingly strange considering your admitting that science can often explain the how but not the why.

So which is it? Can science explain all of the why's, which would lead to no need for the spiritual explanations, or is science still in the dark about many issues, some of them long-standing, profound philosophic questions, leaving plenty of things for the religious, supernatural and spiritual to answer?

We seem to be having two different arguments, the one I am presenting and the one you are reading. I'm not sure how to deal with that. My presenting either needs to improve, or your reading needs to.

I have never assumed that science has explained everything. The 'argument' was posited; human spirituality emerged as a way to explain the unexplained. So did superstition. As we see over time, science explains things of physical nature, superstitions fade away. This has not happened with human spirituality, at all. Religion may modify itself through these scientific findings, it may even rise or fall in popularity, but human spirituality remains unchanged in our species.

The question is not why do humans need a spiritual connection. The spiritual evidence is overwhelming, they have a spiritual connection and always will. This is what drives us, and everything we do as humans. It's what makes us ask why, when other animals couldn't care less. The question is, what is this spiritual power humans are connected to?

 

[Derideo_Te]

You are entitled to your opinion, but this isn't a matter of opinion. Simple logic dictates, if spirituality existed solely because man needs a way to explain the unexplained, then as man explained these things through science, spirituality would have all but vanished, like superstition. Once was the time, people adhered to superstitious beliefs... religiously! As science explained natural phenomenon, these beliefs faded away or remained as a quaint novelty. But science, as amazing as it has been, simply has not replaced the need in humans to be spiritually connected. In fact, some of the greatest scientists have also been very spiritually inclined. Newton transcribed most of the Protestant bible in his later years, and penned many religious writings. Francis Collins, the man who mapped the human genome, is a Christian. Even some of Steven Hawkins observations include the consideration of a non-physical part of our universe that we aren't aware of in the physical.

As I already said, you are making the huge mistake of assuming science has explained all the things which the religious and supernatural explained in the past. That is exceedingly strange considering your admitting that science can often explain the how but not the why.

So which is it? Can science explain all of the why's, which would lead to no need for the spiritual explanations, or is science still in the dark about many issues, some of them long-standing, profound philosophic questions, leaving plenty of things for the religious, supernatural and spiritual to answer?

I have never assumed that science has explained everything. The 'argument' was posited; human spirituality emerged as a way to explain the unexplained.

Your erroneous ASSUMPTION never reached the level of an "argument" because you never made that connection.

 

[Montrovant]

You are entitled to your opinion, but this isn't a matter of opinion. Simple logic dictates, if spirituality existed solely because man needs a way to explain the unexplained, then as man explained these things through science, spirituality would have all but vanished, like superstition. Once was the time, people adhered to superstitious beliefs... religiously! As science explained natural phenomenon, these beliefs faded away or remained as a quaint novelty. But science, as amazing as it has been, simply has not replaced the need in humans to be spiritually connected. In fact, some of the greatest scientists have also been very spiritually inclined. Newton transcribed most of the Protestant bible in his later years, and penned many religious writings. Francis Collins, the man who mapped the human genome, is a Christian. Even some of Steven Hawkins observations include the consideration of a non-physical part of our universe that we aren't aware of in the physical.

As I already said, you are making the huge mistake of assuming science has explained all the things which the religious and supernatural explained in the past. That is exceedingly strange considering your admitting that science can often explain the how but not the why.

So which is it? Can science explain all of the why's, which would lead to no need for the spiritual explanations, or is science still in the dark about many issues, some of them long-standing, profound philosophic questions, leaving plenty of things for the religious, supernatural and spiritual to answer?

We seem to be having two different arguments, the one I am presenting and the one you are reading. I'm not sure how to deal with that. My presenting either needs to improve, or your reading needs to.

I have never assumed that science has explained everything. The 'argument' was posited; human spirituality emerged as a way to explain the unexplained. So did superstition. As we see over time, science explains things of physical nature, superstitions fade away. This has not happened with human spirituality, at all. Religion may modify itself through these scientific findings, it may even rise or fall in popularity, but human spirituality remains unchanged in our species.

The question is not why do humans need a spiritual connection. The spiritual evidence is overwhelming, they have a spiritual connection and always will. This is what drives us, and everything we do as humans. It's what makes us ask why, when other animals couldn't care less. The question is, what is this spiritual power humans are connected to?

We ask 'why' because we are capable of asking it. Other animals don't because they cannot. No spirituality is needed! Intelligence explains why other animals couldn't care less. That you believe our asking is evidence of the spiritual is one thing, but that other animals do not is evidence only of their inability to do so. How would they ask the question, with a spiritual connection, but without the intelligence to do so?

We are having two different arguments because your argument is contradictory. You have said that, without a spiritual connection, humanity should have stopped believing in the spiritual as science progressed and answered questions. That assumes that science must have answered either all questions, or enough that people would feel no need to believe in the supernatural. That gives science and humanity too much credit. Science has many, many questions still to answer, and science does not even attempt to answer many more. There are still many things which science cannot provide answers to but religion or supernatural beliefs can. As I also already said, spiritual and supernatural beliefs can provide comfort or give guidelines for living that science cannot. So your argument about scientific discovery causing an end to supernatural, spiritual beliefs, if those beliefs are mere imagination, is wrong. Simple fear of death is probably enough to maintain spiritual beliefs even if they are nothing but imagination.

Speaking of which, it seems contradictory to me to use human supernatural beliefs through history as evidence of the spiritual, while at the same time dismissing the idea those beliefs could simply be imagination, when you've pretty much said that many of humanity's older beliefs WERE nothing but imagination. If science has explained many phenomena that humans assigned imaginary supernatural beliefs to in the past, why is that evidence that there is SOME kind of supernatural force in the universe, but not evidence that humanity will imagine answers that don't exist?

Put another way, if you accept that lightning and thunder are products of weather and not some kind of thunder god, and if you accept that the whole concept of a thunder god being what creates those things is nothing but a myth made up by people looking for any kind of explanation, why can't current supernatural beliefs be the same? Why can't all supernatural beliefs in history be the same? Why can't humans have been making things up for all of our history, rather than these imaginary beliefs being evidence of the spiritual?

 

[Montrovant]

First, you need to divorce yourself from religion when thinking about this topic, otherwise, you will continue to assume religion and spirituality are the same thing. Just set aside religions for a minute, and think in terms of human spirit. As Breeze pointed out brilliantly, "LIFE" is spiritual. The magical thing that we call "life" and "living" is a spiritual thing, not physical. Yes, physical things are happening to perpetuate a state known as living, but the actual state itself is spiritual.

There are indeed many unknowns, even with the best science. The questions of "WHY?" are often not even addressed by science, they can't be. For instance, we don't know why the properties of electricity behave as they do, we know how, we don't know why. We can explain how we see things in color, but why? Science is inadequate at explaining the WHY part. This is where spirituality comes into play, and it has been around since man discovered fire.

Now, we have to ask ourselves, why are humans the only creatures of life who have this need for comfort, explanation of the unknown, fear of death, etc.? We don't see dogs and cats trying to figure it all out, or being afraid of dying. This is purely an exclusive human attribute....curiously, we are also the only living things that have spirituality and worship. I do not believe that is a coincidence. So what you are basically explaining spirituality with, could also be the result of spiritual connection. We need comfort and explanation because we are spiritually connected, while other forms of life are not. Meaning, you have your assumption reversed. We're not spiritual because we need comfort and explanation, we need comfort and explanation because we are spiritual.

Why humans are the only creatures asking these questions is easily answered. We are the only ones CAPABLE of doing so. I'm really not sure why any other explanation is needed.

Why are we the only living things capable of this, and also, the only living things who are spiritually connected? I agree, we are capable, but why? And why hasn't any other living thing, achieved this capability or anything remotely similar? You see, I think all our unique attributes of human imagination, creativity, cognitive reasoning, inquisitiveness, humanity, wisdom, intelligence, etc.,etc.,etc..., come from our other unique attribute, our ability to connect spiritually to some power greater than self. This is the thing that makes us different from a chimp who shares 98% of our DNA.



Again, I believe it is not a coincidence we are also very spiritual and spiritually connected to something greater than self, which drives human ambition. Our species is certainly not superior at everything, have you figured out what birds are saying to each other when they sing? Why bees and ants can find their way back home or organize and work together in colonies and hives? Why birds can migrate back and forth to the same nests, year after year, generation after generation? Lots of things are better than humans at doing certain things, but we are the ones who have advanced our species to where we are. Spirituality is a big big part of that, regardless of how much you'd like to dismiss it.



Well, I think I just addressed this in my last paragraph, but again, I realize where man is and how intelligent we are, but I also realize we have been intrinsically and inseparably tied to spirituality for all of our existence as well. I don't think this is coincidental, and I don't think you can use our success to explain away the very thing that led to our success.



But this is because you demand some sort of evidence. I am not claiming religion is right and the god I am referring to in the OP is the god of Abe. I have repeatedly made the clarification, I am speaking of god as a metaphor, for whatever it is humans are connected to spiritually, because they most certainly have been connected to something. I think this connection sometimes manifests itself into an undesirable religious belief, but for me, that is just more evidence that humans do make some kind of spiritual connection to something.

To the idea that life is spiritual....*sigh*. Once again, a clear definition is needed or it is a statement with no real meaning. Fine, life is spiritual. What does that mean? What is it about life that makes it spiritual? If life is spiritual, why are humans the only creatures with a spiritual connection? What evidence is there that life is spiritual?

You can explain how life works physically, you can't explain why. It just does. We have things that are inorganic, which simply exist as matter. And we have things which are organic, and these are special, they have a special attribute the inorganic things do not have. They are "blessed" with the ability to grow. Taken to their simplest molecule, they are made up of exactly the same things as the inorganic, but there is something which makes them different. We can explain how these things work, the various chemicals reacting, etc. But we can not explain WHY?

Why are humans the only creatures with spiritual connection? Why are humans the only creatures to achieve what humans have achieved? ...I think the answer is the same for both questions.

This continues to be a matter of you assigning explanations that don't actually explain anything, throwing the word spiritual around as though it answers questions when there is no clear definition for how you are using the word in the first place. At this point I consider your definition of spiritual to be, "anything for which there is no answer".

I keep hearing that I have not explained "spiritual" in this thread, and I wish you people would stop lying. Really. I mean, the first time or two, I figured you may have missed my explanation and so I repeated it. But this is getting tiresome and old real fast. For the last time, I will explain this to you: Spiritual means non-physical. Spiritual nature means, the realm of our universe that is not of the physical realm, defined by physical nature. This could be another dimension we are incapable of recognizing from our physical realm. I do not profess to know the answer to that. I do know this spiritual realm exists, because I connect to it daily, as humans have been doing since we arose from the muck, apparently.

The OP makes clear that we must first define what we mean by each word, before we engage in a debate of the question. I pointed all of this out there, and I have repeated it throughout the thread, and to come in here on page 47 and claim this hasn't been sufficiently established, is very intellectually dishonest.

'That which is not physical' IS a vague and mostly useless definition. It is a catch-all, it gives you a word to use for anything for which there is no observable evidence.

Most of this post is a bunch of 'why?' questions. Nothing wrong with that, of course. However, I think it is a perfect example of the point I have been making. Humanity is still full of questions without definitive answers. Just as in the past, people have created answers to those questions out of their imagination, so too can they still do so today. There is no good evidence that the spiritual exists. That man has believed in spiritual beings and forces is not good evidence, since many or most of those beliefs have turned out to be false.

My why question is why you continue to tout false beliefs as strong evidence. 'Humans believed in something completely made up, but that belief is evidence there was something really there!'. That argument seems pretty silly to me.

You seem to be doing what people have done throughout history; creating answers to questions of 'why' without evidence.

 

[Youwerecreated]

You continue to make it sound as though science has answered all of humanity's questions, Boss, which is clearly untrue. Science also does not provide comfort, nor give a guideline for living life as religions do.

Sure, many things that were once thought of as divine or magical have been explained through science. Humanity knows a lot more than it once did. But there are still plenty of questions, there are still plenty of hopes, there are still plenty of fears, all of which can be answered by various religions. If nothing else, simple fear of death remains a huge draw; most religions have some sort of afterlife, which I imagine can be a huge comfort in the face of death.

Your argument that we should see less belief in religion or the supernatural because of scientific advancement is wrong IMO. What we have seen is just what might be expected, a refinement of those beliefs, a trimming away of those things which can no longer be explained through supernatural means.

You give humanity and science far too much credit if you think our scientific advancement has progressed so far that, barring the spiritual connection you posit, religious and supernatural beliefs should no longer exist.

We know science has no clue about many things most importantly how life came in to existence.

 

[Youwerecreated]

Honestly, you seem to have a desperate need for confirmation from me as to the existence of your magical gawds. I'm afraid that I have no means, methods or mechanisms to confirm your super-magical gawds.

Don't flatter yourself I am just exposing your Ideological agenda one post at a time.

another classic false declaration

I was speaking to Hollie , you must have forgotten who you were signed in as.