Definitive Proof that GOD Exists?

[Derideo_Te]

1. Matter cannot create matter.
2. Show anything in the universe you believe will never end.

1. Only believers are obsessed with the concept of "creation". The rest of us have moved beyond such infantile obsessions.

2. Rampant ignorance and blatant stupidity seems like a good candidate. Do you have even the vaguest clue what the law of conservation of mass means?

You can't logically explain creation without creation. Testable evidence shows, whenever there is a "big bang" things are disorganized and chaotic as a result, they don't find order and pattern. Testable evidence also shows, whenever there is a "big bang" there has to be an energy source responsible. Testable evidence shows that physical matter is unable to create physical matter. (laws of conservation of mass)

Do you exist? Seriously, answer that question! If we can conclude you do exist, then you must be the product of creation. You obviously haven't existed forever, and you won't exist indefinitely. The state of your matter changed from inorganic to organic, and will again change to inorganic. Spiritual nature is what causes inorganic matter to become organic.

You don't have to agree with this, you can continue to believe that physical mass created itself through an unexplained explosion, and this cataclysm resulted in harmonious order and predictable physics across the universe. That is more of a 'miracle' than any god ever conceived.

Yet another mindless noise response devoid of all hard facts. We have all come to expect your creationist kneejerk obtuseness. Have a nice day.

 

[Hollie]

First of all, what I have suggested is not a religion. You simply want to dismiss all spiritual belief as a religion, and I understand why. I didn't configure spiritual nature, it existed before I did, it existed before physical nature did. It doesn't exist 'because I say so.' It is indeed verifiable and provable, and I can even show you how, if you are willing to open your mind. It doesn't require abandoning rationality or reason at all, spirituality is a perfectly natural human behavioral state.

What you're requiring of me is precisely the requirement that religions require: that I "believe" you. According to you, I must 'open my mind", to accept your assertions. What dies that mean, to "open my mind"? This is why your claims are phony.

I don't need to "open my mind" to understand the natural world. I can experience the natural, rational world around me. If I need explanations for the effects of gravity or what causes a lunar eclipse, I can research peer reviewed science journals and get the consensus of those who research the phenomenon. There is no requirement to "open my mind" to science as there is for your spirit worlds and other such claims which are asserted but carry a requirement to "believe", absent reliable corroboration.

Save "belief" for Sunday school. In the natural, rational world, facts have a way trumping "belief".

I didn't require you to believe me. However, you must have faith and belief in anything, including science, in order to accept it and believe in it. I posed the question earlier: Do you believe gravity will behave on Earth tomorrow, as it behaves on Earth today? Most will say, yes! This is because the evidence is strong, gravity has behaved in a predictable way up until today, therefore, it is rational to presume it will behave the same tomorrow... but we can't ever absolutely "prove" it will. We have faith it will.

Science is nothing more than theory of probability and predictability. Earlier, I presented the question asked by Theoretical Physicist, Dr. Michio Kaku, to his new students; Calculate the possibility that your body will disintegrate and re-materialize on the other side of a brick wall. Now, you are a smart person who puts all you faith and hope in science and the scientific method... do you have a calculation? Believe it or not, there is an actual calculation, and there is this possibility. Kaku says you would have to calculate longer than the universe has existed, but the possibility does indeed exist and is calculable.

What you and others continue to do, is dismiss spiritual nature on the grounds that it doesn't seem to conform to physical nature, or limits/requirements on physical nature. The flaw is simple, spiritual nature is not physical nature, it is entirely different. It's kind of like saying water can't possibly contain oxygen because we obviously can't breathe it. You are applying a criteria to oxygen that it doesn't have to meet to exist.

You can have all the understanding in the world, of science and physical nature... your science can never explain the WHY, just the HOW part. I stated in the OP, that certain things we are aware of, don't really have a "physical" presence we can put our finger on... like "talent." We can certainly measure brain wave activity and see that the brain is functioning or in thought, and we can detect chemical reactions happening and neurons firing, etc. But what made Mozart's neurons fire differently? Chance? I know through science, how friction causes atoms to become electrically charged, producing electricity... but can you explain why that happens? Of course not, because all science breaks down to basic physical laws and principles we accept as part of reality in a physical universe. Did all of this assimilation of order just happen by randomness and chance?

Now I personally dig science, I think it's wonderful and great, and probably the best thing that has ever come from human spiritual understanding. It helps us to see (sometimes) how the miracles of spiritual nature work. But this constant using it to try and defy spiritual nature, is laughable to me. It's as if you have discovered a working computer on the beach... and you've chosen to believe it exists because of random chances which all fell into place and created the computer there on the beach. Others suggest it was intelligently designed, but you demand evidence and proof. As you dig into the guts, you find a CPU... Ah-ha! You see... there is the "answer" the CPU surely created the computer through evolution! No intelligent designer needed! Yeah, because... the silicone is natural and available in nature... and heavy metals... and they just happened to wash up on the beach in the right combo, along with a bolt of lightning which electrically charged the CPU and brought it to life, and from there... natural selection, baby!

I thought the Muslim guy in the video posted earlier, made an interesting observation about the universe. Isn't it curious, we find atoms, the smallest thing in the universe we can see... and they are orbited by little round protons, neutrons, and electrons. Then we can go to the most powerful telescopes and as far out into the universe as we can look, we see small suns, orbited by planets and planets orbited by moons... a pattern. Big Bangs do not create patterns, they create chaos. This is a testable hypothesis. So what can be the physical science explanation for pattern, order, logic, where we should find chaos?

Spiritual energy.

Sheesh. That was quite an impassioned plea but unfortunately, totally wrong.

These "spiritual energy" claims of yours which you promote as some engine for the creation of "patterns" is totally bogus.

Firstly, where is this "order" you see in the universe? It doesn't exist. Have you realized that photos of planetary objects in this solar system depict objects that are pock-marked with craters? Why do you think that Is?

Have you ever heard of Shoemaker-Levy? How about a minor event on this planet 65 million years ago?

The fact is, the universe is a place hostile to life and unforgiving of "patterns". There is planetary bombardment by meteors, asteroids, etc. Galaxies collide, stars exhaust their fuel and explode in emission of energy that is "cosmic" in scale which obliterates other space objects. Black holes consume entire portions of space. Space objects collide and are reduced to dust. There are also huge areas of the cosmos which are empty and other areas relatively dense with planets, stars, etc.

This "order" you see is a function of your religious bias. We live in Hunan time frames, not geologic time frames, thus we are spared experiencing the chaos of the universe.

 

[Boss]

Yet another mindless noise response devoid of all hard facts. We have all come to expect your creationist kneejerk obtuseness. Have a nice day.

It appears your "hard facts" are your opinions. This is based on the obvious lack of presentation on your part, of anything approaching a "hard fact" or "fact" of any type, for that matter. We are entertained with yet another barrage of hate-filled ridicule and name-calling, intertwined with mass doses of your intellectual opinion. Then we get a layer of lies and distortions, along with another dose of insults and opinion. Page after page, you have repeated this process, and it's just not working for you. Of course, your buddies are all here to cheer you on, and reassure you that you are "winning" the debate, but you haven't even started debating. No evidence has been presented on your part, it's all rhetorical opinion, most of which is adequately debunked with basic logic and common sense.

I'm not sure how long you have been debating on message boards, and perhaps this is the strategy you find most effective at "winning" a debate; to demagogue your opponent and filibuster the thread with nonsensical opinions and lies until he simply throws up his hands in frustration and leaves? But I can assure you, this tactic isn't going to work on me. I will continue to expose you as someone who has presented no evidence to support your opinions, and a habitual liar.

 

[MaryL]

I am sure agnostic/atheist have prayed at least once in their lives. I have a time or two. I am sure just as many theists have cursed god under their breath and doubted the whole shebang. Would they be that honest? Admit it. Such a simple thing, you doubt for a second that religion makes any sense. Just for a second. Don’t give me that “devil” stuff. We humans are all about doubt. Only an idiot or a animal doesn’t doubt.

 

[hobelim]

How can anything without reasoning ability create intelligently?

You missed the point. The ability to create intelligently requires a reasoning ability.

Prove your statement true, or stop making it. We can say, from what we know of intelligent physical entities, they require reasoning to create intelligently. I have no problem with that statement, but that isn't what you said. .

Stop the horseshit. The very definition of intelligence includes the ability to reason.

There is nothing for me to prove.




.

[........I'm trying to get you to understand that your opinions are not facts, but you are being rather hard headed about this. Seems you think, whenever you have bestowed your profound opinions, we are not to question them or ask for proof.

Again it is not my opinion that the ability to reason is foundational to intelligence.

by that standard you are not very bright.

 

[Boss]

Sheesh. That was quite an impassioned plea but unfortunately, totally wrong.

Let it be noted that Hollie has the OPINION that I am wrong, and has offered NO evidence to support said opinion. I presume this means "because I say so?"

These "spiritual energy" claims of yours which you promote as some engine for the creation of "patterns" is totally bogus.

Firstly, where is this "order" you see in the universe? It doesn't exist.

Sure it does. You created an entire science around this, it's called "Physics." Are you trying to claim the speed of light is random, or things in the universe are totally unpredictable? If not, then there IS order.

Have you realized that photos of planetary objects in this solar system depict objects that are pock-marked with craters? Why do you think that Is?

It's largely due to atmosphere. Our special planet happens to have an atmosphere with layers of protection against radiation and ultraviolet rays, as well as many asteroids and meteors, which burn up as they enter the atmosphere. It's almost as if whatever force enabled life, also enabled an atmosphere to protect life, as if it were intelligently designed this way.

Have you ever heard of Shoemaker-Levy? How about a minor event on this planet 65 million years ago?

Now you are trying to claim there is no order in the universe because random collisions happen. Of course, we knew when Shoemaker-Levy would impact, we watched it happen after our predicting it. According to your theory of non-order, this would have been random, it may have happened, and it may not have happened, depending on chance. Since we know physics and can rely on order and logic, we were able to predict this event would indeed happen, and we were correct.

The fact is, the universe is a place hostile to life and unforgiving of "patterns". There is planetary bombardment by meteors, asteroids, etc. Galaxies collide, stars exhaust their fuel and explode in emission of energy that is "cosmic" in scale which obliterates other space objects. Black holes consume entire portions of space. Space objects collide and are reduced to dust. There are also huge areas of the cosmos which are empty and other areas relatively dense with planets, stars, etc.

Yet we find "pattern" all over the universe. We also find "order" and "logic," and all of it is the result of spiritual nature which we cannot see or physically confirm.

This "order" you see is a function of your religious bias. We live in Hunan time frames, not geologic time frames, thus we are spared experiencing the chaos of the universe.

No, the order I see in the physical universe, is proof to me that a spiritual nature exists and is responsible for it, because random chance doesn't produce such results in any testable circumstance.

We live in human time frames, we also live in human conception of reality. Our arrogance as intellectual life forms, often results in our assumptions which happen to be false. This is as true for science as it is for religion, it's part of human nature.

 

[Youwerecreated]

Sheesh. That was quite an impassioned plea but unfortunately, totally wrong.

Let it be noted that Hollie has the OPINION that I am wrong, and has offered NO evidence to support said opinion. I presume this means "because I say so?"

These "spiritual energy" claims of yours which you promote as some engine for the creation of "patterns" is totally bogus.

Firstly, where is this "order" you see in the universe? It doesn't exist.

Sure it does. You created an entire science around this, it's called "Physics." Are you trying to claim the speed of light is random, or things in the universe are totally unpredictable? If not, then there IS order.



It's largely due to atmosphere. Our special planet happens to have an atmosphere with layers of protection against radiation and ultraviolet rays, as well as many asteroids and meteors, which burn up as they enter the atmosphere. It's almost as if whatever force enabled life, also enabled an atmosphere to protect life, as if it were intelligently designed this way.



Now you are trying to claim there is no order in the universe because random collisions happen. Of course, we knew when Shoemaker-Levy would impact, we watched it happen after our predicting it. According to your theory of non-order, this would have been random, it may have happened, and it may not have happened, depending on chance. Since we know physics and can rely on order and logic, we were able to predict this event would indeed happen, and we were correct.

The fact is, the universe is a place hostile to life and unforgiving of "patterns". There is planetary bombardment by meteors, asteroids, etc. Galaxies collide, stars exhaust their fuel and explode in emission of energy that is "cosmic" in scale which obliterates other space objects. Black holes consume entire portions of space. Space objects collide and are reduced to dust. There are also huge areas of the cosmos which are empty and other areas relatively dense with planets, stars, etc.

Yet we find "pattern" all over the universe. We also find "order" and "logic," and all of it is the result of spiritual nature which we cannot see or physically confirm.

This "order" you see is a function of your religious bias. We live in Hunan time frames, not geologic time frames, thus we are spared experiencing the chaos of the universe.

No, the order I see in the physical universe, is proof to me that a spiritual nature exists and is responsible for it, because random chance doesn't produce such results in any testable circumstance.

We live in human time frames, we also live in human conception of reality. Our arrogance as intellectual life forms, often results in our assumptions which happen to be false. This is as true for science as it is for religion, it's part of human nature.

Hmm, do I really exist ?

 

[edthecynic]

Isn't it curious, we find atoms, the smallest thing in the universe we can see... and they are orbited by little round protons, neutrons, and electrons. Then we can go to the most powerful telescopes and as far out into the universe as we can look, we see small suns, orbited by planets and planets orbited by moons... a pattern. Big Bangs do not create patterns, they create chaos. This is a testable hypothesis. So what can be the physical science explanation for pattern, order, logic, where we should find chaos?

Spiritual energy.

And this scientific ignoramus claims to be a MOLECULAR biologist. Before you can understand the structure of a molecule, you must understand the structure of the atom, especially the electrons which are the key to how atoms combine into molecules. This idiot thinks protons and neutrons are in orbit!

Atoms are made up of protons neutrons and electrons. Protons and neutrons do not orbit an atom, they make up the nucleus of an atom. Electrons orbit the nucleus.

The universe IS chaotic!!! Something in the universe is smashing into something else constantly. The universe is a Perpetual Commotion Machine.

 

[Boss]

You missed the point. The ability to create intelligently requires a reasoning ability.

Prove your statement true, or stop making it. We can say, from what we know of intelligent physical entities, they require reasoning to create intelligently. I have no problem with that statement, but that isn't what you said. .

Stop the horseshit. The very definition of intelligence includes the ability to reason.

There is nothing for me to prove.

You mean the definition of human intelligence? Again, I do not argue that spiritual gods have, need, or require, human intelligence. What you need to prove, is that a spiritual entity would require ability to reason, in order to display intelligence in creation. Since you do not believe spiritual entities exist, and you don't comprehend spiritual existence or spiritual nature, it is impossible for you to prove this. You can rely on definitions pertaining to physical concepts, but spiritual nature doesn't conform to them.

Perhaps this is a good place to note, when I am using the words "intelligent designer" I am not using them in context of 'physical nature' understandings. What you comprehend as "intelligent" is not necessarily what I mean in context of "spiritual intelligence." There is just not another word in our vocabulary to adequately describe it here. We see "intelligence" as the product of rational thought, but a spiritual energy or entity, doesn't require thought, it already has the knowledge...doesn't need to rationalize it or think about it, as humans in a physical universe.

.

[........I'm trying to get you to understand that your opinions are not facts, but you are being rather hard headed about this. Seems you think, whenever you have bestowed your profound opinions, we are not to question them or ask for proof.

Again it is not my opinion that the ability to reason is foundational to intelligence.

by that standard you are not very bright.

Again, you are arguing a point on the basis of physical reasoning, not spiritual. It is indeed your opinion that all physical examples of intelligence we are aware of, has the ability to reason, which is what makes it intelligence. I agree with this completely, but that wasn't the argument. Spiritual nature does not have to conform to physical rationale, and most often, it simply doesn't. While we can only comprehend intelligence as something that requires rational ability to reason, that doesn't mean this is the only way intelligence can exist in a spiritual sense. We continue to run into the same exact problem, over and over again, your inability to open your mind to spiritual nature and it's presence in our universe.

You also seem to like jumping to conclusions, and pretending your perceptions are factual. It's preposterous that intelligence without ability to reason can exist...nonsense... yet you have offered no proof that it doesn't. This is an assumption you have made, and then closed your mind to anything which challenges that assumption. Either through ignorance or stubbornness, you are unable to open your mind to any possibility, other than the conclusions you have drawn.

 

[Boss]

Isn't it curious, we find atoms, the smallest thing in the universe we can see... and they are orbited by little round protons, neutrons, and electrons. Then we can go to the most powerful telescopes and as far out into the universe as we can look, we see small suns, orbited by planets and planets orbited by moons... a pattern. Big Bangs do not create patterns, they create chaos. This is a testable hypothesis. So what can be the physical science explanation for pattern, order, logic, where we should find chaos?

Spiritual energy.

And this scientific ignoramus claims to be a MOLECULAR biologist. Before you can understand the structure of a molecule, you must understand the structure of the atom, especially the electrons which are the key to how atoms combine into molecules. This idiot thinks protons and neutrons are in orbit!

Atoms are made up of protons neutrons and electrons. Protons and neutrons do not orbit an atom, they make up the nucleus of an atom. Electrons orbit the nucleus.

The universe IS chaotic!!! Something in the universe is smashing into something else constantly. The universe is a Perpetual Commotion Machine.

Uhm.. I never claimed to be a molecular biologist, I think that was YWC.

Maybe he can explain the atoms, protons, neutrons, electrons thing better than I? The point is still, from the smallest things to the farthest reaching things, our universe has pattern of design. Now.... Go and blow up ANYTHING... and see what results?

Pattern or Chaos?

 

[JimBowie1958]

Quite the opposite. A "created" universe is improbable whereas an infinitely existing universe is both logical and fully conforms to the law of conservation of mass.

My point is that an infinitely old universe is impossible due to the nature of infinite limits. They can be approached but never reached. Infinitely distant limits from the negative side are impossible to derive from as there is no starting point.

Infinity is not a mathematical value.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Limit_of_a_function#Limits_involving_infinity

Limits can also have infinite values. When infinities are not considered legitimate values, which is standard (but see below), a formalist will insist upon various circumlocutions. For example, rather than say that a limit is infinity, the proper thing is to say that the function "diverges" or "grows without bound"....
Limits involving infinity are connected with the concept of asymptotes.
These notions of a limit attempt to provide a metric space interpretation to limits at infinity.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Infinity

Infinity (symbol: &#8734 refers to something without any limit, and is a concept relevant in a number of fields, predominantly mathematics and physics. The English word infinity derives from Latin infinitas, which can be translated as "unboundedness", itself calqued from the Greek word apeiros, meaning "endless".[1]

In mathematics, "infinity" is often treated as if it were a number (i.e., it counts or measures things: "an infinite number of terms") but it is not the same sort of number as the real numbers. In number systems incorporating infinitesimals, the reciprocal of an infinitesimal is an infinite number, i.e., a number greater than any real number. Georg Cantor formalized many ideas related to infinity and infinite sets during the late 19th and early 20th centuries. In the theory he developed, there are infinite sets of different sizes (called cardinalities).[2] For example, the set of integers is countably infinite, while the infinite set of real numbers is uncountable.[3]

It is a concept. The mathematical limitations of calculus do not apply to time or matter.

Of course they do. All mathematical concepts apply in some way to matter and of those that do not appear to (very very few), if historical patterns hold, then eventually some realtion to the material universe will be found for them.

The conservation of mass is not infringed by creation since it comes from an infinite source of energy.

Your premise rests upon an assumption that there is "an infinite source of energy" which begs the question as to what "created" that source in the first place.

You do not seem to grasp the nature of what 'infinite' means. Look at a number line, with the left side progressing toward negative infinity and the right side progressing to positive infinity. There is no point before negative infinity, nor after positive infinity.

Cantor explored these infinite values and infinite sets quite a bit and his set number system is considered essential to modern mathematics, and he firmly believed that his transfinite numbers proved the existence of God at least as a concept.

An infinite universe that has always existed and will always exist does not need any such assumptions and is in full compliance with the conservation of mass.

1. We know the universe is not infinite. Any model that is infinite is outside our known universe and as fanciful and nonscientific as any other notion of what might be outside our universe.

2. An infinite universe is still subject to the first moment problem. IF there is no first moment in time, then nothing can follow after to the present. There is nothing for the universe to come after.

 

[JimBowie1958]

The concept of a cyclical universe with multiple big bangs is now gaining more and more credence amongst reputable scientists.

https://www.google.com/search?q=cyclical+universe+multiple+big+bangs&rlz=1C1CHKZ_enUS438US513&oq=cyclical+universe+multiple+big+bangs&aqs=chrome.0.57j0l3.12475j0&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8

Our current time did begin with the big bang. However the existence of matter and energy preceded the big bang since the singularity was all matter and energy in the universe compressed into a single object.

I have read different ideas on what actually existed at time point ZERO. Some seem to think that there was nothing prior to ZERO, some say it was there before but only sprang into existence in an instant. Some say Membranes of an interdimensional region 'touched' (whatever that actually means) and caused the Big Bang.

All I know is this: no matter how many iterations of time you use, whether linear, circular or spiral or whatever, an infinite number of finite periods of time cannot have preceded the present. It is as impossible as counting to and down from an infinite value. Cant happen. This fact is not of the Xeno paradox sort in that no time is reduced in parallel to with distance, etc. This infinite limit is simply a mathematical fact.

That is not what is being proposed. There is only a single infinite universe of space/time. The period of time that we are counting from the current big bang is meaningless as far as the universe is concerned. It is an entirely arbitrary limitation that we are using from our own myopic perspective. The universe has always existed and while it constantly changes form it has no limitations as far as time is concerned.

The flow of time must have a first moment in time for the simple fact that if there is no first moment in time, then there is nothing for time to come after. If there is no first hour, then there are no hours that follow. If there is no first second, then no seconds can follow.

The universe cannot have always existed. It is impossible.

 

[Boss]

I am sure agnostic/atheist have prayed at least once in their lives. I have a time or two. I am sure just as many theists have cursed god under their breath and doubted the whole shebang. Would they be that honest? Admit it. Such a simple thing, you doubt for a second that religion makes any sense. Just for a second. Don’t give me that “devil” stuff. We humans are all about doubt. Only an idiot or a animal doesn’t doubt.

Mary, here is the thing I think you are confused about... Spiritual nature does indeed exist, and you know that it does, but the thing about admitting it does, lends at least a plausible credibility to religious philosophies you totally disagree with. You have become content enough with yourself as a human being, to seemingly 'abandon' spirituality, in order to do battle against these religious philosophies you despise. I can relate, because I recall a time in my life, where I felt this way as well. It's indeed a frustrating dilemma as a person.

What you don't yet realize, and I hope one day you will, is that Religion is not Spirituality. Your personal connection to spiritual nature is not dependent on religious beliefs or dogma in any way. Spiritual energy is present, just like electricity, for you to tap into. But of course, if you are some backwoods hillbilly who'd never heard of such things as electricity, and someone came along with it... what use would you possibly have for such hocus pocus? You have to first be able to open your mind to your spiritual self, your spiritual possibilities, your very own spiritual nature. No one on this planet can do that, only you.

My OP argument attempts to escape the shackles of Religion, to set aside our emotional sentiments toward organized religious beliefs for a moment, and consider human behavior, the fundamentals of human spirituality, our intrinsic connection to something spiritual, how this is our most unique and defining attribute, and most likely responsible for why we are so advanced as a species. I even paid respects to Darwin in my argument, and the scientific method as well. Against the backdrop of "intellectuals" here, I have presented support for my beliefs by people like Aristotle and Plato. Indeed, this question has been pondered by mankind for all our existence, it's not going to be settled in this thread.

 

[daws101]

Sheesh. That was quite an impassioned plea but unfortunately, totally wrong.

Let it be noted that Hollie has the OPINION that I am wrong, and has offered NO evidence to support said opinion. I presume this means "because I say so?"



Sure it does. You created an entire science around this, it's called "Physics." Are you trying to claim the speed of light is random, or things in the universe are totally unpredictable? If not, then there IS order.



It's largely due to atmosphere. Our special planet happens to have an atmosphere with layers of protection against radiation and ultraviolet rays, as well as many asteroids and meteors, which burn up as they enter the atmosphere. It's almost as if whatever force enabled life, also enabled an atmosphere to protect life, as if it were intelligently designed this way.



Now you are trying to claim there is no order in the universe because random collisions happen. Of course, we knew when Shoemaker-Levy would impact, we watched it happen after our predicting it. According to your theory of non-order, this would have been random, it may have happened, and it may not have happened, depending on chance. Since we know physics and can rely on order and logic, we were able to predict this event would indeed happen, and we were correct.



Yet we find "pattern" all over the universe. We also find "order" and "logic," and all of it is the result of spiritual nature which we cannot see or physically confirm.

This "order" you see is a function of your religious bias. We live in Hunan time frames, not geologic time frames, thus we are spared experiencing the chaos of the universe.

No, the order I see in the physical universe, is proof to me that a spiritual nature exists and is responsible for it, because random chance doesn't produce such results in any testable circumstance.

We live in human time frames, we also live in human conception of reality. Our arrogance as intellectual life forms, often results in our assumptions which happen to be false. This is as true for science as it is for religion, it's part of human nature.

Hmm, do I really exist ?

in the same way jock itch does....incessantly.

 

[Hollie]

Sheesh. That was quite an impassioned plea but unfortunately, totally wrong.

Let it be noted that Hollie has the OPINION that I am wrong, and has offered NO evidence to support said opinion. I presume this means "because I say so?"

Let it be noted that Boss is befuddled. The fact of a chaotic universe is not in question, as was demonstrated.

These "spiritual energy" claims of yours which you promote as some engine for the creation of "patterns" is totally bogus.

Firstly, where is this "order" you see in the universe? It doesn't exist.

Sure it does. You created an entire science around this, it's called "Physics." Are you trying to claim the speed of light is random, or things in the universe are totally unpredictable? If not, then there IS order.

More befuddlement as the speed of light has nothing to do with any bogus claim of “order” in the universe.

It's largely due to atmosphere. Our special planet happens to have an atmosphere with layers of protection against radiation and ultraviolet rays, as well as many asteroids and meteors, which burn up as they enter the atmosphere. It's almost as if whatever force enabled life, also enabled an atmosphere to protect life, as if it were intelligently designed this way.

Yet more religious claims made by Boss in connection with an “intelligent Designer”. It seems Boss has identified again that he is just an ordinary, pedestrian intelligent design “creationist”.

Now you are trying to claim there is no order in the universe because random collisions happen. Of course, we knew when Shoemaker-Levy would impact, we watched it happen after our predicting it. According to your theory of non-order, this would have been random, it may have happened, and it may not have happened, depending on chance. Since we know physics and can rely on order and logic, we were able to predict this event would indeed happen, and we were correct.

It seems Boss would have us believe that his gawds “intelligently designed” the universe.... just once in a while, the gawds are subject to an oopsies.

Yet we still have Boss insisting that his gawds designed an orderly universe when, as noted, Boss's gawds provide "order" by way of planetary bombardment by meteors, asteroids, etc. Galaxies collide, stars exhaust their fuel and explode in emission of energy that is "cosmic" in scale which obliterates other space objects. Black holes consume entire portions of space. Space objects collide and are reduced to dust. There are also huge areas of the cosmos which are empty and other areas relatively dense with planets, stars, etc.

It seem the gawds have played a cruel joke on Boss.

The fact is, the universe is a place hostile to life and unforgiving of "patterns". There is planetary bombardment by meteors, asteroids, etc. Galaxies collide, stars exhaust their fuel and explode in emission of energy that is "cosmic" in scale which obliterates other space objects. Black holes consume entire portions of space. Space objects collide and are reduced to dust. There are also huge areas of the cosmos which are empty and other areas relatively dense with planets, stars, etc.

Yet we find "pattern" all over the universe. We also find "order" and "logic," and all of it is the result of spiritual nature which we cannot see or physically confirm.

Yet we find "order" in terms of planetary bombardment by meteors, asteroids, etc. Galaxies collide, stars exhaust their fuel and explode in emission of energy that is "cosmic" in scale which obliterates other space objects. Black holes consume entire portions of space. Space objects collide and are reduced to dust. There are also huge areas of the cosmos which are empty and other areas relatively dense with planets, stars, etc.

This "order" you see is a function of your religious bias. We live in Hunan time frames, not geologic time frames, thus we are spared experiencing the chaos of the universe.

No, the order I see in the physical universe, is proof to me that a spiritual nature exists and is responsible for it, because random chance doesn't produce such results in any testable circumstance.

I'm afraid your "intelligent design" fundamentalist brethren are in need of some schooling in connection with the natural world.

We live in human time frames, we also live in human conception of reality. Our arrogance as intellectual life forms, often results in our assumptions which happen to be false. This is as true for science as it is for religion, it's part of human nature.

Yes, we live in terms of human conceptions. Sadly for intelligent design creationists, those human conceptions are based within a natural reality not subordinate to your rather conceptions of gawds.

 

[Hollie]

Sheesh. That was quite an impassioned plea but unfortunately, totally wrong.

Let it be noted that Hollie has the OPINION that I am wrong, and has offered NO evidence to support said opinion. I presume this means "because I say so?"



Sure it does. You created an entire science around this, it's called "Physics." Are you trying to claim the speed of light is random, or things in the universe are totally unpredictable? If not, then there IS order.



It's largely due to atmosphere. Our special planet happens to have an atmosphere with layers of protection against radiation and ultraviolet rays, as well as many asteroids and meteors, which burn up as they enter the atmosphere. It's almost as if whatever force enabled life, also enabled an atmosphere to protect life, as if it were intelligently designed this way.



Now you are trying to claim there is no order in the universe because random collisions happen. Of course, we knew when Shoemaker-Levy would impact, we watched it happen after our predicting it. According to your theory of non-order, this would have been random, it may have happened, and it may not have happened, depending on chance. Since we know physics and can rely on order and logic, we were able to predict this event would indeed happen, and we were correct.



Yet we find "pattern" all over the universe. We also find "order" and "logic," and all of it is the result of spiritual nature which we cannot see or physically confirm.

This "order" you see is a function of your religious bias. We live in Hunan time frames, not geologic time frames, thus we are spared experiencing the chaos of the universe.

No, the order I see in the physical universe, is proof to me that a spiritual nature exists and is responsible for it, because random chance doesn't produce such results in any testable circumstance.

We live in human time frames, we also live in human conception of reality. Our arrogance as intellectual life forms, often results in our assumptions which happen to be false. This is as true for science as it is for religion, it's part of human nature.

Hmm, do I really exist ?

Not in any meaningful way.

 

[Youwerecreated]

Isn't it curious, we find atoms, the smallest thing in the universe we can see... and they are orbited by little round protons, neutrons, and electrons. Then we can go to the most powerful telescopes and as far out into the universe as we can look, we see small suns, orbited by planets and planets orbited by moons... a pattern. Big Bangs do not create patterns, they create chaos. This is a testable hypothesis. So what can be the physical science explanation for pattern, order, logic, where we should find chaos?

Spiritual energy.

And this scientific ignoramus claims to be a MOLECULAR biologist. Before you can understand the structure of a molecule, you must understand the structure of the atom, especially the electrons which are the key to how atoms combine into molecules. This idiot thinks protons and neutrons are in orbit!

Atoms are made up of protons neutrons and electrons. Protons and neutrons do not orbit an atom, they make up the nucleus of an atom. Electrons orbit the nucleus.

The universe IS chaotic!!! Something in the universe is smashing into something else constantly. The universe is a Perpetual Commotion Machine.

This a good answer that anyone could have googled why don't you give Boss the chance to explain it.

Daws this why you were lying you needed Physics and Biochemistry to understand Rna at the molecular level.

 

[edthecynic]

Isn't it curious, we find atoms, the smallest thing in the universe we can see... and they are orbited by little round protons, neutrons, and electrons. Then we can go to the most powerful telescopes and as far out into the universe as we can look, we see small suns, orbited by planets and planets orbited by moons... a pattern. Big Bangs do not create patterns, they create chaos. This is a testable hypothesis. So what can be the physical science explanation for pattern, order, logic, where we should find chaos?

Spiritual energy.

And this scientific ignoramus claims to be a MOLECULAR biologist. Before you can understand the structure of a molecule, you must understand the structure of the atom, especially the electrons which are the key to how atoms combine into molecules. This idiot thinks protons and neutrons are in orbit!

Atoms are made up of protons neutrons and electrons. Protons and neutrons do not orbit an atom, they make up the nucleus of an atom. Electrons orbit the nucleus.

The universe IS chaotic!!! Something in the universe is smashing into something else constantly. The universe is a Perpetual Commotion Machine.

Uhm.. I never claimed to be a molecular biologist, I think that was YWC.

Maybe he can explain the atoms, protons, neutrons, electrons thing better than I? The point is still, from the smallest things to the farthest reaching things, our universe has pattern of design. Now.... Go and blow up ANYTHING... and see what results?

Pattern or Chaos?

And that point is still wrong because as was pointed out, the universe is chaotic. You are simply pontificating that chaos is a pattern. Blow something up and you set it in motion. The universe is in motion with something colliding into something else due to that chaotic motion. For short periods you might observe some gravitational patterns to the objects in chaotic motion, but the patterns never last. Chaos wins out in the end.

 

[Youwerecreated]

Isn't it curious, we find atoms, the smallest thing in the universe we can see... and they are orbited by little round protons, neutrons, and electrons. Then we can go to the most powerful telescopes and as far out into the universe as we can look, we see small suns, orbited by planets and planets orbited by moons... a pattern. Big Bangs do not create patterns, they create chaos. This is a testable hypothesis. So what can be the physical science explanation for pattern, order, logic, where we should find chaos?

Spiritual energy.

And this scientific ignoramus claims to be a MOLECULAR biologist. Before you can understand the structure of a molecule, you must understand the structure of the atom, especially the electrons which are the key to how atoms combine into molecules. This idiot thinks protons and neutrons are in orbit!

Atoms are made up of protons neutrons and electrons. Protons and neutrons do not orbit an atom, they make up the nucleus of an atom. Electrons orbit the nucleus.

The universe IS chaotic!!! Something in the universe is smashing into something else constantly. The universe is a Perpetual Commotion Machine.

Uhm.. I never claimed to be a molecular biologist, I think that was YWC.

Maybe he can explain the atoms, protons, neutrons, electrons thing better than I? The point is still, from the smallest things to the farthest reaching things, our universe has pattern of design. Now.... Go and blow up ANYTHING... and see what results?

Pattern or Chaos?

Ed had it right.

 

[Youwerecreated]

And this scientific ignoramus claims to be a MOLECULAR biologist. Before you can understand the structure of a molecule, you must understand the structure of the atom, especially the electrons which are the key to how atoms combine into molecules. This idiot thinks protons and neutrons are in orbit!

Atoms are made up of protons neutrons and electrons. Protons and neutrons do not orbit an atom, they make up the nucleus of an atom. Electrons orbit the nucleus.

The universe IS chaotic!!! Something in the universe is smashing into something else constantly. The universe is a Perpetual Commotion Machine.

Uhm.. I never claimed to be a molecular biologist, I think that was YWC.

Maybe he can explain the atoms, protons, neutrons, electrons thing better than I? The point is still, from the smallest things to the farthest reaching things, our universe has pattern of design. Now.... Go and blow up ANYTHING... and see what results?

Pattern or Chaos?

And that point is still wrong because as was pointed out, the universe is chaotic. You are simply pontificating that chaos is a pattern. Blow something up and you set it in motion. The universe is in motion with something colliding into something else due to that chaotic motion. For short periods you might observe some gravitational patterns to the objects in chaotic motion, but the patterns never last. Chaos wins out in the end.

Parts of the universe can be considered Chaotic but we can set our calendars to other parts of the universe because of it's predictable order So in my opinion it is both.