In essence, the thread question is answered according to whether or not you accept spiritual nature. Those who refuse to acknowledge spiritual nature, can never find the proof they require to believe god exists, while those who do accept spiritual nature, have an abundance of spiritual evidence to support their belief.
Right. I've gathered that much. And I can't answer such a question without a more complete definition of 'spiritual nature'. It seems likely you've been around this shed somewhere in the midst of these 2000 or so posts, so I apologize if I'm asking you to repeat yourself. I was hoping you'd address my question regarding the distinctions among the related concepts of 'non-physical', 'spiritual' and 'supernatural'.
I can accept that man has a non-physical, 'spiritual' nature. But the concept of supernatural is incoherent. Either something is real, or it's not. As I've stated, I believe gods are real, non-physical entities (just as human minds are real, non-physical entities), but they aren't magical in nature. They're subtle, and quite powerful, constructs of human society that we are only beginning to understand.
I really do appreciate your candor and willingness to intelligently discuss this topic like a mature adult. I want to again commend you on the effort, it is certainly appreciated in light of what we've been getting from others here. At least you are willing to open your mind to some possibility, and that is all anyone can ask in a debate of this magnitude.
I am going to take the liberty of giving my personal interpretations here, I am not claiming this to be empirical, it's simply where my personal viewpoints rest. I think spiritual nature is an unseen energy or presence of spirit that we can't detect with physics at this time. It is there, just as the material world around us is there. It is part of reality, just as physical presence is part of reality, it just can't be verified or confirmed physically, because it isn't physical in nature. I don't believe this qualifies it as "supernatural" because it is a fundamental part of nature. In fact, it was pointed out earlier, the actual condition we recognize as "life" is spiritual. Everything in the universe is comprised of common elements, they are arranged by humans on the Periodic Table. What makes particular combinations of these elements "organic" rather than "inorganic" is spiritual nature. Certain elements come together and their atoms react with one another to create what is known as "electricity" and the force which makes this 'reality' is spiritual nature. Everything that is a predictable law of physics or science, is the result of spiritual energy. We can explain HOW something happens with physical science, we can't explain WHY it happens.
Black holes were mentioned earlier, and it's interesting because the phenomenon is not predicted by physics. We believed that physics applied everywhere in our universe, that it was consistent and...well...universal. But then we discovered black holes, dark energy, antimatter, wormholes. We're not sure what the heck these things are, because they simply defy what we previously understood and thought. It is causing us to have to literally reevaluate the universe and what we know about it.
Now think about this for a hot second... Let's imagine that 60 years ago, long before science knew anything about black holes, some 'prophet' began speaking of this 'message from god' he had received, and god had revealed to him, the universe has a hole in it, where even light could not escape... what would have been the response from the science community to this? Oh, that's absolute nonsense! We would have been bombarded with physics and science showing that such a thing was just not possible. The closed-minded would have mocked and ridiculed the prophet, and demanded some kind of "proof" for his insane claims. Of course, all the prophet has is spiritual evidence, so it would have been dismissed by those who reject spiritual evidence.
I think we have to be extremely careful drawing assumptive conclusions regarding physical sciences. As we've seen throughout the history of science, it is not always correct or complete. In fact, the very nature of scientific method, continues to ask questions, it does not conclude things. I do not know that we will never make a physical discovery of spiritual energy, but the logic dichotomy comes into play if we ever do, because it would immediately cease to be "spiritual" if proven by physical evidence. Perhaps, in that case, we would still refer to it as "spiritual" out of habit, or distinction?
I want to tackle one more thing here... you used the word "magical" when you spoke of god previously. What do you mean by "magic?" As most of us are aware, there is really not a such thing as true "magic" and what we perceive as such, is merely an illusion. How it is presented, may be a complete mystery, but there is always a logical and rational explanation, the magician does not have supernatural powers. When I examine the numerous theories of abiogenesis, it seems quite "magical" to me.
It reminds me of when I was a kid, and we vacationed in Florida. We would buy these things called "Sea Monkeys" at the novelty store. It was a dry packet of crystals you mixed with water, and in a few days, you were supposed to have mystical and fascinating sea monkeys, doing tricks and acrobatics, right before your very eyes! Well the "magic" was, these were dehydrated brine shrimp, when hydrated, they began growing. Mine never did tricks or look like the ones on the packet, I was very disappointed.
I resurrected this memory because when I think of all the amazing miracles of life around us, I can't imagine it resulting from a single-cell organism, and it reminds me of Sea Monkeys. To me, it is much more plausible to think life emerged through spiritual energy, much the same as electricity, gravity, and principles of physics. This belief does not mean that I have a religious concept of a god who is jealous or angry, who requires praise and worship, who punishes sin or whatever. That is a theological concept that may or may not be correct, in my opinion. I am not here to address the possibility of such a deity, I don't know that such a god exists, even in a spiritual sense. Still, I think there is a guiding spiritual force in our universe, and humans have the ability to connect with it, which is the "magic" behind humans and humanity.
