Deception Rape?

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I have to admit I'm ambiguous on this and didn't know what to think when I first heard about it.

It seems that some states have a law that adds deceiving a woman (or probably a man too) to have sex with her to the definition of rape. The logic, which I'm not disagreeing with, is that a woman cannot possibly give consent when she doesn't know who she's having sex with because he made himself out to be someone he wasn't.

I saw this on a Dateline episode where a man posing as a CIA spy, married and created families with several different women. Everything he said was lies on top of lies, a parfait of deception. When he was caught, he was charged for several crimes, the most serious of which was rape.....by deception.

The jury dismissed that charge, not perceiving that any real harm was demonstrated by prosecutors, at least not in the sex.

Then I saw it again while watching the famous movie "Overboard" (Kurt Russel, Goldie Hawn) with the family, which I'm sure everyone has seen. When he finally has sex with the amnesiac woman he deceived, there was flowery music as if this were a positive and intensely romantic scene instead a woman being raped because she didn't know he wasn't really her husband. I looked at this scene (the kids were in bed, no they didn't see that part!) and asked my wife, "Is this rape?"

She doesn't know either.

 

Skylar

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I'd have to know more about the laws in question and the States you're referring to. The description you've given wouldn't be rape by any conventional definition I've ever heard of.
 

PaintMyHouse

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Rape, by deception? Eye of the beholder. If dinner out, flowers, wine, and a nice gift means you bed him, is that a seduction or prostitution? I know it when I see it.
 

Iceweasel

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Libs are nuts. How many times have couples parted and said they didn't even realize who the other person was until....

A law like that could be used at will by attorneys to play god, and get compensated pretty well in the process.
 

Skylar

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Libs are nuts. How many times have couples parted and said they didn't even realize who the other person was until....

A law like that could be used at will by attorneys to play god, and get compensated pretty well in the process.
And which states do these laws exist in?
 

Iceweasel

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Libs are nuts. How many times have couples parted and said they didn't even realize who the other person was until....

A law like that could be used at will by attorneys to play god, and get compensated pretty well in the process.
And which states do these laws exist in?
The OP saw the show, go ahead and ask him.
 

Skylar

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Libs are nuts. How many times have couples parted and said they didn't even realize who the other person was until....

A law like that could be used at will by attorneys to play god, and get compensated pretty well in the process.
And which states do these laws exist in?
The OP saw the show, go ahead and ask him.
I did. He hasn't said.

If you don't know....how do you know its 'liberal' anything? It could be California. It could be Minnesota. It could be Texas.

Or....it could be none of the above, as no such laws may actually exist. Wouldn't it be best to know before you ubiquitously blame 'libs'?
 

Skylar

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saintmichaeldefendthem
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Rape, by deception? Eye of the beholder. If dinner out, flowers, wine, and a nice gift means you bed him, is that a seduction or prostitution? I know it when I see it.
Yeah, you get the feeling that it's not going to be very enforceable. There's some things people do to each other that just stink to high heaven, but you can't really make it illegal. I think I might have even told some fibs in high school to sleep with girls...or maybe I just embellished a tad. Thank God the statute of limitations for rape has expired!
 

Roadrunner

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I'd have to know more about the laws in question and the States you're referring to. The description you've given wouldn't be rape by any conventional definition I've ever heard of.
This might help:

Rape by deception - Wikipedia the free encyclopedia
I don't know the legal definition of deception rape, or if there is legally such a thing, but, I knew it when I saw it.

My best friend lived for one thing, to charm his way into the pants of any and every girl he could, by any means necessary.

As I grew up, I parted ways with him, but, what he did was immoral, if not illegal.
 
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I'd have to know more about the laws in question and the States you're referring to. The description you've given wouldn't be rape by any conventional definition I've ever heard of.
This might help:

Rape by deception - Wikipedia the free encyclopedia
These are about sneaking into darkened bedrooms at night. Not about lying to a woman.
Actually it is. Read further. The scenario I gave in the OP happened IRL. A man had several different women he was lying to, marrying, and even having kids with. And he was prosecuted for rape, albeit unsuccessfully.
 

Roadrunner

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Skylar

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I'd have to know more about the laws in question and the States you're referring to. The description you've given wouldn't be rape by any conventional definition I've ever heard of.
This might help:

Rape by deception - Wikipedia the free encyclopedia
These are about sneaking into darkened bedrooms at night. Not about lying to a woman.
Ah, different deception.
Impersonation. A man sneaking into a woman's bedroom at night and pretending to be her boyfriend in the dark.

Which has nothing to do with what the OP describes.
 
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Libs are nuts. How many times have couples parted and said they didn't even realize who the other person was until....

A law like that could be used at will by attorneys to play god, and get compensated pretty well in the process.
And which states do these laws exist in?
The OP saw the show, go ahead and ask him.
I did. He hasn't said.

If you don't know....how do you know its 'liberal' anything? It could be California. It could be Minnesota. It could be Texas.

Or....it could be none of the above, as no such laws may actually exist. Wouldn't it be best to know before you ubiquitously blame 'libs'?
The laws do exist, there's no debate about that. The question is whether or not they should.
 

Iceweasel

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Libs are nuts. How many times have couples parted and said they didn't even realize who the other person was until....

A law like that could be used at will by attorneys to play god, and get compensated pretty well in the process.
And which states do these laws exist in?
The OP saw the show, go ahead and ask him.
I did. He hasn't said.

If you don't know....how do you know its 'liberal' anything? It could be California. It could be Minnesota. It could be Texas.

Or....it could be none of the above, as no such laws may actually exist. Wouldn't it be best to know before you ubiquitously blame 'libs'?
I've been around long enough to know how much libs like to play the blame game and embrace the victimhood mentality. Any law close to that is definitely liberal. Life is full of chances, pick one and it fails, it's your fault. Live and learn.
 

Skylar

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Libs are nuts. How many times have couples parted and said they didn't even realize who the other person was until....

A law like that could be used at will by attorneys to play god, and get compensated pretty well in the process.
And which states do these laws exist in?
The OP saw the show, go ahead and ask him.
I did. He hasn't said.

If you don't know....how do you know its 'liberal' anything? It could be California. It could be Minnesota. It could be Texas.

Or....it could be none of the above, as no such laws may actually exist. Wouldn't it be best to know before you ubiquitously blame 'libs'?
I've been around long enough to know how much libs like to play the blame game and embrace the victimhood mentality. Any law close to that is definitely liberal. Life is full of chances, pick one and it fails, it's your fault. Live and learn.
Ah. So why burden yourself with evidence. Or even a passing understanding of the topic.
 
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saintmichaeldefendthem
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Libs are nuts. How many times have couples parted and said they didn't even realize who the other person was until....

A law like that could be used at will by attorneys to play god, and get compensated pretty well in the process.
And which states do these laws exist in?
The OP saw the show, go ahead and ask him.
I did. He hasn't said.

If you don't know....how do you know its 'liberal' anything? It could be California. It could be Minnesota. It could be Texas.

Or....it could be none of the above, as no such laws may actually exist. Wouldn't it be best to know before you ubiquitously blame 'libs'?
I've been around long enough to know how much libs like to play the blame game and embrace the victimhood mentality. Any law close to that is definitely liberal. Life is full of chances, pick one and it fails, it's your fault. Live and learn.
I have no doubt these laws were pushed by feminists for whom the issue of rape is their sharpest rapier. (Ha!) Yes rape is a terrible thing, but not a reason to criminalize every interaction between people, even crumby ones.
 

Skylar

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Libs are nuts. How many times have couples parted and said they didn't even realize who the other person was until....

A law like that could be used at will by attorneys to play god, and get compensated pretty well in the process.
And which states do these laws exist in?
The OP saw the show, go ahead and ask him.
I did. He hasn't said.

If you don't know....how do you know its 'liberal' anything? It could be California. It could be Minnesota. It could be Texas.

Or....it could be none of the above, as no such laws may actually exist. Wouldn't it be best to know before you ubiquitously blame 'libs'?
The laws do exist, there's no debate about that. The question is whether or not they should.
The laws prevent impersonation. Pretending to be some woman's boyfriend in the dark, for example.

(A) Was unconscious or asleep.

(B) Was not aware, knowing, perceiving, or cognizant that the act occurred.

(C) Was not aware, knowing, perceiving, or cognizant of the essential characteristics of the act due to the perpetrator's fraud in fact.

(D) Was not aware, knowing, perceiving, or cognizant of the essential characteristics of the act due to the perpetrator's fraudulent representation that the sexual penetration served a professional purpose when it served no professional purpose.

- See more at: CAL. PEN. CODE 261 California Code - Section 261
With one of the 'essential characteristics' being who they're having sex with.
 
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saintmichaeldefendthem
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Libs are nuts. How many times have couples parted and said they didn't even realize who the other person was until....

A law like that could be used at will by attorneys to play god, and get compensated pretty well in the process.
And which states do these laws exist in?
The OP saw the show, go ahead and ask him.
I did. He hasn't said.

If you don't know....how do you know its 'liberal' anything? It could be California. It could be Minnesota. It could be Texas.

Or....it could be none of the above, as no such laws may actually exist. Wouldn't it be best to know before you ubiquitously blame 'libs'?
I've been around long enough to know how much libs like to play the blame game and embrace the victimhood mentality. Any law close to that is definitely liberal. Life is full of chances, pick one and it fails, it's your fault. Live and learn.
Ah. So why burden yourself with evidence. Or even a passing understanding of the topic.
You can be combative about anything, can't you? This isn't one of those kind of topics. Just discuss the issue without making enemies out of everyone.
 

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