Debunking the claim that “Palestinians” are the indigenous people of Israel

[Phoenall]

A good critique of Joan Peters book, and other issues.

Norman Finkelstein - Legitimate vs. Illegitimate Disagreements on the Israel/Palestine Conflict

A left wing Jew's personal take on the subject not supported by any unbiased evidence. In other words islamonazi propaganda and arab muslim talking points

 

[Phoenall]

You posted far more than 500 words, which is a copyright violation, and no one ever claimed that all the Jews in Israel are indigenous. The point is that most of the so-called "Palestinians" are not indigenous. They are immigrants from other countries.

Where is 500 words a copyright infringement according to the rules of USMB? Here, I'll help you, since you and Holly have clearly NOT gone to the link itself, and seen the extremely long article with the graphs and table.

Copyright. Link Each "Copy & Paste" to It's Source. Only paste a small to medium section of the material.

The point is...according to the article from which a posted a "medium" size section, there is no way to prove how many are or are not indiginous, and since your title states that the claim any are is "debunked" ... and you state "most are not indiginous" - your claim is debunked by this information.

There's no need to prove the exact number of so-called "Palestinians" are indigenous. The evidence indicates that the vast majority of them aren't. In fact, because of interbreeding, virtually none of them are indigenous. The so-called "indigenous" Palestinians were swamped by vast numbers if immigrants.

No evidence to support that claim. In fact, even genetically - Palestinians are still very close to the indiginous Jewish population.

It doesn't matter how close they are "genetically." Their genes didn't come from people who lived there before 1948.

Are you now claiming that the Palestinians spontaneously appeared in 1948? That those people did not exist before then? That only Jews lived in Palestine region?

NO not at all just that the majority arrived between 1875 and the present day from the surrounding lands as shown by the evidence from all sides of the argument. Even the leadership of hamas says that the arab muslims calling themselves palestinians are from Egypt, Syria, Iraq, Iran and Yemen.

 

[Phoenall]

Even today, the Arab Palestinians differ in the meaning of the territorial term, "Palestine."

It is interesting that Palestinians rarely us the term Israel. They usually call that territory 48. They don't use the term Arab Israelis they are called 48 Palestinians. It is the same for Palestinians in Palestine and here in the US.

Take that for what you will.

Never heard that before how about a LINK to prove your claim, or is it another of your fantasies ?

 

[Phoenall]

Today, the Arabs refer to themselves as Palestinians.

As did the 1925 citizenship order. The Palestinians have been legally Palestinians since the Treaty of Lausanne.

And just where does the treaty of Lausanne say that, give the section that states palestinians will be called palestinians legally from this date. Or is this another of your poor English comprehension fallacies

 

[Phoenall]

Are you now claiming that the Palestinians spontaneously appeared in 1948? That those people did not exist before then? That only Jews lived in Palestine region?

Well, the people existed, obviously. But they were not a distinct culture or national group until after the beginnings of the conflict. Some would say they are not a distinct culture now. I would say their distinction developed because of the conflict. (Which is fine. Conflict is often a catalyst for change and for cementing self and other. There is no crime or problem in the fact that Palestinian identity is a result of the conflict.)

My beef is certain people tend to claim that they did not exist before as a means of denying them rights. They claim they are mostly immigrants from elsewhere - pretty much the same claim made by others against the Jews. But they aren't - whether they were a culture or not before - they were human beings who were there.

And yet you have no evidence to support your claim that would stand up in a court of law, all you have is the word of anti Semites, Neo Nazi's, Neo Marxists and hate sites

 

[Phoenall]

I see the Zionist bullshitters are at again. The Muslim and Christian Palestinians are descendants of the same people that lived in the area since before Jews arrived in the area. The indigenous people didn't just disappear, they interbred, they changed religions etc., but they are still descendants of the indigenous people in large part, notwithstanding migration and invasion.

Then prove it conclusively using unbiased sources and evidence that would stand up in a court of law.

 

[Phoenall]

Coyote, et al,

Here we go, tripping over these definitions.

Are you now claiming that the Palestinians spontaneously appeared in 1948? That those people did not exist before then? That only Jews lived in Palestine region?

(COMMENT)

In February 1948, when the Arabs declined to participate in the process of addressing the "Step Preparatory to Independence," a Palestinian included both Jewish and Arab Citizens. In 1916, the year of the Balfour Declaration, Arabs of the territory were called Arabs (not Palestinians - Palestine Arab Delegation at the Hotel Cecil in London). Today, the Arabs refer to themselves as Palestinians.

Even today, the Arab Palestinians differ in the meaning of the territorial term, "Palestine."

Most Respectfully,
R

They called themselves the people of Palestine bullshitter.

"Whilst the position in Palestine is, as it stands to-day, with the British Government holding authority by an occupying force, and using that authority to impose upon the people against their wishes a great immigration of alien Jews, many of them of a Bolshevik revolutionary type, no constitution which would fall short of giving the People of Palestine full control of their own affairs could be acceptable...."
UK correspondence with Palestine Arab Delegation and Zionist Organization/British policy in Palestine: "Churchill White Paper" - UK documentation Cmd. 1700/Non-UN document (excerpts) (1 July 1922)

Not a legal UN document so does not count as evidence. There is a difference between calling themselves people of palestine and palestinians, people of palestine is like calling Russians people of the Steppes or South Americans people of the Pampas. They never called themselves palestinians as no nation of palestine existed until 1988

 

[Phoenall]

Q: Debunking the claim that “Palestinians” are the indigenous people of Israel: Does this have an impact on the question?

A: No Definitely not! "An official definition of “indigenous” has not been adopted by any UN-system body." But for all practical purposes, the Arabs had the cultural majority in the region for more than a century.

OK, but what terms did the LoN use?

• inhabited by peoples
• development of such peoples
• tutelage of such peoples
• development of the people
• Certain communities
• wishes of these communities
• interests of the indigenous population.
• in their own countries
• native inhabitants of territories

As you can see, the LoN used several terms to define the people of the place. None of these imply foreigners.

It is true that the population of Palestine was relatively stable all through the Ottoman period. How can anyone say that the do not have rights to that territory? The thought is absurd.

IT IS NOT TRUE AT ALL THAT THE POPULATION OF PALESTINE REMAINED STABLE ALL THROUGH THE OTTOMAN PERIOD. IN THREE SEPARATE INSTANCES THE OTTOMANS TRIED TO COLONISE PALESTINE WITH ARAB MUSLIMS AND FAILED DUE TO THEM LEAVING WHEN THE WORK WAS TOO HARD FOR THEM. THIS MEANT THE OTTOMANS INVITED THE JEWS OF EASTERN EUROPE TO MIGRATE AND COLONISE THE LANDS AND SO THE SEEDS OF DISSENT WERE SOWN

 

[Phoenall]

The PLO recognizes the right of the State of Israel to exist in peace and security.
... ... ...

Yasser Arafat, Chairman. The Palestine Liberation Organization

This recognition issue is just an internal conflict with the people of the West Bank and Gaza Strip that still follow the 1967 Khartoum Resolution (The Three No's).

Arafat acted without the knowledge or approval of the Palestinians.

He acted as all good statesmen would and made decisions for the betterment of those people he represented. He did not need the approval of anyone unless you wanted to see a blood bath when they tried to kill him.


Now how about the link to the law that says he needed the peoples knowledge and approval before he could act, that is just plain idiocy to even say such a thing

 

[Coyote]

My beef is certain people tend to claim that they did not exist before as a means of denying them rights.

You and I have the same beef, then. The fact that they did not exist before has absolutely no significance to the fact that they exist and have rights now.

They claim they are mostly immigrants from elsewhere - pretty much the same claim made by others against the Jews.

Again, I think we agree. Settler migration is a common and normal part of the human experience, with or without the conflict that sometimes arises from it. The fact that people migrate, and migrate for various reasons, should never be a reason to delegitimize an entire peoples, imo.

I honestly think, though, that the reason Team Israel continually points out Arab immigration into Palestine (the geographical area) is to point out the double standard held by Team Palestine in that immigrant Jews are foreigners but immigrant Arabs are "natives". Like you said, its the same claim. But immigrant Arabs are legit while immigrant Jews are thieves.

Don't you think though, that the double standard is prevalent on both sides? As long as I've been here I've heard the same arguments rehashed over and over and well...you know: Jewish Invaders! Arab Squatters! We need to move past it, just like we need to move past "Israel's right to exist". Regardless of how one feels about it's founding, it's here, been here now for generations as a state, and it's not going anywhere, so move on.

I also think we have to seriously consider who we call "immigrants". Are returnees immigrants? Why or why not? And again, not hold a double standard there.

But they aren't - whether they were a culture or not before - they were human beings who were there.

Yep. Of course. But one of the questions to ask yourself is why the Arabs could not (still can't) accept "immigrants". What was (is) the problem?

That is a difficult question to answer...and I don't think there is one right answer. My feeling is...if you are a citizen of country X, and you move to country Y - you're an immigrant. That doesn't mean country Y isn't a part of your heritage, but your citizenry defines your immigration status. That's just my opinion though.

 

[Coyote]

Where is 500 words a copyright infringement according to the rules of USMB? Here, I'll help you, since you and Holly have clearly NOT gone to the link itself, and seen the extremely long article with the graphs and table.

Copyright. Link Each "Copy & Paste" to It's Source. Only paste a small to medium section of the material.

The point is...according to the article from which a posted a "medium" size section, there is no way to prove how many are or are not indiginous, and since your title states that the claim any are is "debunked" ... and you state "most are not indiginous" - your claim is debunked by this information.

There's no need to prove the exact number of so-called "Palestinians" are indigenous. The evidence indicates that the vast majority of them aren't. In fact, because of interbreeding, virtually none of them are indigenous. The so-called "indigenous" Palestinians were swamped by vast numbers if immigrants.

No evidence to support that claim. In fact, even genetically - Palestinians are still very close to the indiginous Jewish population.

It doesn't matter how close they are "genetically." Their genes didn't come from people who lived there before 1948.

Are you now claiming that the Palestinians spontaneously appeared in 1948? That those people did not exist before then? That only Jews lived in Palestine region?

I'm claiming that most of the people who call themselves "Palestinian" are descended from people who lived elsewhere before 1948. They are no more "indigenous" than the Jews who migrated after 1948.

You haven't supported that claim.

 

[Shusha]

Don't you think though, that the double standard is prevalent on both sides?

No, I don't. Not prevalent on both sides. I think most of the double standards are presented by Team Palestine and Team Israel often defends against these double standards by mirroring them. Its an important distinction. Its a call and response. It looks like both sides are contributing equally to the double standards, but in reality one is provoking and one is defending. While there are occasional Team Israel members who post unsavory ideas, I don't believe that any on Team Israel fundamentally believe that the Palestinian people have no right to exist, have no right to self-determination and have no right to a State. Where this is the foundation of nearly everyone on Team Palestine (you being the notable exception).

But you being the reasonable person you are, might be able to convince me. You'd have to bring examples, though. It would be a worthy conversation, if you are interested. I always enjoy debating with you.

As long as I've been here I've heard the same arguments rehashed over and over and well...you know: Jewish Invaders! Arab Squatters! We need to move past it, just like we need to move past "Israel's right to exist". Regardless of how one feels about it's founding, it's here, been here now for generations as a state, and it's not going anywhere, so move on.

Could not possibly agree with you more! I've often said that the actual, practical problems are easy to solve. Its the ideology that is problematic.

 

[montelatici]

Don't you think though, that the double standard is prevalent on both sides?

No, I don't. Not prevalent on both sides. I think most of the double standards are presented by Team Palestine and Team Israel often defends against these double standards by mirroring them. Its an important distinction. Its a call and response. It looks like both sides are contributing equally to the double standards, but in reality one is provoking and one is defending. While there are occasional Team Israel members who post unsavory ideas, I don't believe that any on Team Israel fundamentally believe that the Palestinian people have no right to exist, have no right to self-determination and have no right to a State. Where this is the foundation of nearly everyone on Team Palestine (you being the notable exception).

But you being the reasonable person you are, might be able to convince me. You'd have to bring examples, though. It would be a worthy conversation, if you are interested. I always enjoy debating with you.

As long as I've been here I've heard the same arguments rehashed over and over and well...you know: Jewish Invaders! Arab Squatters! We need to move past it, just like we need to move past "Israel's right to exist". Regardless of how one feels about it's founding, it's here, been here now for generations as a state, and it's not going anywhere, so move on.

Could not possibly agree with you more! I've often said that the actual, practical problems are easy to solve. Its the ideology that is problematic.

99% of team Israel doesn't even believe that Palestinians exist, much less have a right to exist. That's a fact. LOL

 

[Phoenall]

Don't you think though, that the double standard is prevalent on both sides?

No, I don't. Not prevalent on both sides. I think most of the double standards are presented by Team Palestine and Team Israel often defends against these double standards by mirroring them. Its an important distinction. Its a call and response. It looks like both sides are contributing equally to the double standards, but in reality one is provoking and one is defending. While there are occasional Team Israel members who post unsavory ideas, I don't believe that any on Team Israel fundamentally believe that the Palestinian people have no right to exist, have no right to self-determination and have no right to a State. Where this is the foundation of nearly everyone on Team Palestine (you being the notable exception).

But you being the reasonable person you are, might be able to convince me. You'd have to bring examples, though. It would be a worthy conversation, if you are interested. I always enjoy debating with you.

As long as I've been here I've heard the same arguments rehashed over and over and well...you know: Jewish Invaders! Arab Squatters! We need to move past it, just like we need to move past "Israel's right to exist". Regardless of how one feels about it's founding, it's here, been here now for generations as a state, and it's not going anywhere, so move on.

Could not possibly agree with you more! I've often said that the actual, practical problems are easy to solve. Its the ideology that is problematic.

99% of team Israel doesn't even believe that Palestinians exist, much less have a right to exist. That's a fact. LOL

Palesatinians do exist, it is just who you see as being palestinians in the first place. How can Ali from pakistan be a palestinian, or mohamet from Egypt. Suliman from Yemen. amric from Jordan or even bashar from Syria

 

[Shusha]

I'm claiming that most of the people who call themselves "Palestinian" are descended from people who lived elsewhere before 1948. They are no more "indigenous" than the Jews who migrated after 1948.

You haven't supported that claim.

I agree that the claim has not been fully supported. The migration records for the time period between the mid 1850s and 1948 are notoriously incomplete, self-serving, biased and riddled with errors.

It is self-evident that there was a good deal of migration into the area by both Arabs and Jews in this time period. It is amply evident that Palestinian nationalism (as distinct from Arab nationalism) grew in direct correlation to the conflict with the Jewish people and their growing nationalism.

It is also quite evident that there is a double standard held by those on Team Palestine that Arab immigrants from Syria are "natives" and Jewish immigrants from Europe are "foreigners". But its also easy to see why. Arabs are same, Jews are other. But it should also be relatively easy to why the Jewish people bristle at being labelled as "foreigners" in their own ancestral homeland.

The bottom line, however, really is that it does not matter. Who lived where, when and who immigrated and when and who has "legtimacy" and who does not -- are all red herrings. None of it affects matters of sovereignty, legality or social justice. We need to stop examining the past for ammunition as to why the "other" should have no rights today, and start looking forward to how we can provide social justice to BOTH peoples today.

 

[ForeverYoung436]

Don't you think though, that the double standard is prevalent on both sides?

No, I don't. Not prevalent on both sides. I think most of the double standards are presented by Team Palestine and Team Israel often defends against these double standards by mirroring them. Its an important distinction. Its a call and response. It looks like both sides are contributing equally to the double standards, but in reality one is provoking and one is defending. While there are occasional Team Israel members who post unsavory ideas, I don't believe that any on Team Israel fundamentally believe that the Palestinian people have no right to exist, have no right to self-determination and have no right to a State. Where this is the foundation of nearly everyone on Team Palestine (you being the notable exception).

But you being the reasonable person you are, might be able to convince me. You'd have to bring examples, though. It would be a worthy conversation, if you are interested. I always enjoy debating with you.

As long as I've been here I've heard the same arguments rehashed over and over and well...you know: Jewish Invaders! Arab Squatters! We need to move past it, just like we need to move past "Israel's right to exist". Regardless of how one feels about it's founding, it's here, been here now for generations as a state, and it's not going anywhere, so move on.

Could not possibly agree with you more! I've often said that the actual, practical problems are easy to solve. Its the ideology that is problematic.

99% of team Israel doesn't even believe that Palestinians exist, much less have a right to exist. That's a fact. LOL

Well, do you believe Israel has a right to exist? Barely a century ago Palestinians believed they were southern Syrians. But I'd be willing to give them a state on the West Bank (the heartland of Eretz Yisroel), if it would bring peace. Would you be willing to accept Israel for those results?

 

[Coyote]

I'm claiming that most of the people who call themselves "Palestinian" are descended from people who lived elsewhere before 1948. They are no more "indigenous" than the Jews who migrated after 1948.

You haven't supported that claim.

I agree that the claim has not been fully supported. The migration records for the time period between the mid 1850s and 1948 are notoriously incomplete, self-serving, biased and riddled with errors.

It is self-evident that there was a good deal of migration into the area by both Arabs and Jews in this time period. It is amply evident that Palestinian nationalism (as distinct from Arab nationalism) grew in direct correlation to the conflict with the Jewish people and their growing nationalism.

It is also quite evident that there is a double standard held by those on Team Palestine that Arab immigrants from Syria are "natives" and Jewish immigrants from Europe are "foreigners". But its also easy to see why. Arabs are same, Jews are other. But it should also be relatively easy to why the Jewish people bristle at being labelled as "foreigners" in their own ancestral homeland.

The bottom line, however, really is that it does not matter. Who lived where, when and who immigrated and when and who has "legtimacy" and who does not -- are all red herrings. None of it affects matters of sovereignty, legality or social justice. We need to stop examining the past for ammunition as to why the "other" should have no rights today, and start looking forward to how we can provide social justice to BOTH peoples today.

Exactly!

 

[Shusha]

99% of team Israel doesn't even believe that Palestinians exist, much less have a right to exist. That's a fact. LOL

Not so. Team Israel often responds to the call that the Jewish people don't exist as an ethnic group and have no rights with a counter-argument. Team Israel rarely, if ever, originates a discussion by claiming that the Palestinians aren't "real" and therefore can't have self-determination and a State. AND much of Team Israel's insistence that Palestinians aren't ready for a state of their own is directly a result of Palestinian's behaviour, not a fundamental "wrongness" about Palestinians being a people.

 

[P F Tinmore]

Don't you think though, that the double standard is prevalent on both sides?

No, I don't. Not prevalent on both sides. I think most of the double standards are presented by Team Palestine and Team Israel often defends against these double standards by mirroring them. Its an important distinction. Its a call and response. It looks like both sides are contributing equally to the double standards, but in reality one is provoking and one is defending. While there are occasional Team Israel members who post unsavory ideas, I don't believe that any on Team Israel fundamentally believe that the Palestinian people have no right to exist, have no right to self-determination and have no right to a State. Where this is the foundation of nearly everyone on Team Palestine (you being the notable exception).

But you being the reasonable person you are, might be able to convince me. You'd have to bring examples, though. It would be a worthy conversation, if you are interested. I always enjoy debating with you.

As long as I've been here I've heard the same arguments rehashed over and over and well...you know: Jewish Invaders! Arab Squatters! We need to move past it, just like we need to move past "Israel's right to exist". Regardless of how one feels about it's founding, it's here, been here now for generations as a state, and it's not going anywhere, so move on.

Could not possibly agree with you more! I've often said that the actual, practical problems are easy to solve. Its the ideology that is problematic.

99% of team Israel doesn't even believe that Palestinians exist, much less have a right to exist. That's a fact. LOL

Palesatinians do exist, it is just who you see as being palestinians in the first place. How can Ali from pakistan be a palestinian, or mohamet from Egypt. Suliman from Yemen. amric from Jordan or even bashar from Syria

Unsubstantiated Israeli talking point.

 

[montelatici]

Don't you think though, that the double standard is prevalent on both sides?

No, I don't. Not prevalent on both sides. I think most of the double standards are presented by Team Palestine and Team Israel often defends against these double standards by mirroring them. Its an important distinction. Its a call and response. It looks like both sides are contributing equally to the double standards, but in reality one is provoking and one is defending. While there are occasional Team Israel members who post unsavory ideas, I don't believe that any on Team Israel fundamentally believe that the Palestinian people have no right to exist, have no right to self-determination and have no right to a State. Where this is the foundation of nearly everyone on Team Palestine (you being the notable exception).

But you being the reasonable person you are, might be able to convince me. You'd have to bring examples, though. It would be a worthy conversation, if you are interested. I always enjoy debating with you.

As long as I've been here I've heard the same arguments rehashed over and over and well...you know: Jewish Invaders! Arab Squatters! We need to move past it, just like we need to move past "Israel's right to exist". Regardless of how one feels about it's founding, it's here, been here now for generations as a state, and it's not going anywhere, so move on.

Could not possibly agree with you more! I've often said that the actual, practical problems are easy to solve. Its the ideology that is problematic.

99% of team Israel doesn't even believe that Palestinians exist, much less have a right to exist. That's a fact. LOL

Well, do you believe Israel has a right to exist? Barely a century ago Palestinians believed they were southern Syrians. But I'd be willing to give them a state on the West Bank (the heartland of Eretz Yisroel), if it would bring peace. Would you be willing to accept Israel for those results?

It would surprise the publishers of Falastin (Palestine) that they believed that they were southern Syrians. Palestinians may have thought that the only way to achieve limited self-determination was to be included as part of the French Mandate for Syria, since the French had not issued a Balfour Declaration, but they have always been Palestinians, changing religions as conquerors came and went, from when the place called Palaestina during Roman times.