Debunking Rape Epidemic Claims

[Coyote]

Only a piece of true excrement would call the rejection of rape an act of bigotry.

Your "concern" for rape comes to a stuttering halt when it doesn't involve Muslims. Your obsession with excrement is duly noted, Dogcrap.

By the way, why did you chose a poll from a hate site, instead of a reputable one like Pew, when you attempted to demonize American Muslims? Was it because Pew didn't portray them as the evil intolerant thugs you wish them to be?

Yawn.
View attachment 86842

And yet...you're still here. Spray doesn't seem very effective.

 

[StLucieBengal]

Coyote what is your fascination with Islam and these migrants?

It seems you desperately want to make every known excuse in the book for them.

One. I'm not making excuses. Name one excuse I've given for rape, or any other violent behavior. I want the truth. What is the truth? What are the facts when you strip emotional hype and fear?

Fear drives us to unspeakable things to our fellow people.

My fascination is less with Islam then it is with scapegoating and broadbrushing an entire group of people and right now, it's acceptable to scapegoat Muslims broadly and completely, with out regard to whether it's conspiracy theory, the actions of a few, or hype over fact. Seems to be me any right thinking person should be concerned when a group gets scapegoated. We don't tolerate it when it's Jews or Blacks do we? How do our resident racists/anti-semites get treated? Not with respect. But when it comes to Muslims, it's the broad brush and if you question it, ask for facts, you are labeled.

I'll give an example. Why do I press Dogma on the issue of a poll? Because, in a thread on American Muslims, he wanted to show that American Muslims are just as violent, extremist, intolerant, etc as he views Muslims in other countries. Previously he had used Pew, a well respected non-partisan source for views of Muslims around the world towards Sharia, apostacy, homosexuality and women's rights. So did he use Pew in this thread? No. He chose a poll that who's methodology is roundly criticized and debunked, from a site widely considered way out there by many, and a hate site, who's results purported to show something like over 50% suppported religous violence and Sharia as law of the land, or something. This completely contradicted Pew, which showed American Muslims are largely the same as other demographic groups in America in their opinions towards seperation of religion and state, violence, homosexuality, and women's rights. So, Pew is "good enough" for worldwide opinion but suddenly not "good enough" for American Muslim opinion? When a person deliberately chooses to use something from a disreputable site over something from a reputable site - I think it's reasonable to ask "why" and what are the motivations?

My "fascination" with migrants and refugees is because they are PEOPLE, living, breathing people who have gone through horrendous experiences in an attempt to escape what are often desperate situations. It takes a particular desperation and courage to do that, and the death toll in those sea voyages and at the hands of traffickers is very high. We tend to forget they are human beings.

1. This entire thread is about a conspiracy against Muslims. This is an excuse to the media reports of them rapefugees.

Conspiracy theories aren't backed by data or facts. My thread's OP is backed by crime statistics over a period of time. The same sort of crime statistics, I might add, that are perfectly acceptable under other circumstances. The fact that you refer to refugees/migrants as whole as "rapefugees" pretty much supports my position.

2. On broad stroking a group of people.... If it walks like a duck, quacks like a duck, and looks like a duck... It's a duck.

Muslims worldwide share the belief in oppression of women and children. Not all rape away in praise to Allah. But they do support wearing oppressive garmets.

This is my biggest issue with Islam. Their constant oppression, which has no place in western society. Which is why I would shut the borders to them. Until they had a reformation to remove these beliefs and teachings . My wife is Russian orthodox and wears a scarf in church but only wears it in church. She doesn't wear it everywhere .... She still believes in God and isn't any less of an orthodox because of this .... How is this any different than a Muslim?

There I disagree with you, because it assumes two things - that all Muslims adhere to the most conservative aspects of Islam, that they all believe in oppressing women, and that Islam is unchangeable. Attitudes towards women vary according to the culture of the people who practice that faith. For example - look at FGM. It's most prevalent in N. Africa, and in the countries where it is still practiced, it is done by Christian, Animaist and Muslims alike. Yet, in other Muslim majority countries it is unheard of. There is nothing in Islam itself that demands it - it's a cultural legacy.

Opinions of Muslims towards the role of women around the world may lag behind those of western countries, but within Western countries, like the US, Muslim opinions are in line with that of other demographic groups.

Muslims and Islam: Key findings in the U.S. and around the world

What do American Muslims believe?

Our 2011 survey of Muslim Americans found that roughly half of U.S. Muslims (48%) say their own religious leaders have not done enough to speak out against Islamic extremists.


Living in a religiously pluralistic society, Muslim Americans are more likely than Muslims in many other nations to have many non-Muslim friends. Only about half (48%) of U.S. Muslims say all or most of their close friends are also Muslims, compared with a global median of 95% in the 39 countries we surveyed.


Roughly seven-in-ten U.S. Muslims (69%) say religion is very important in their lives. Virtually all (96%) say they believe in God, nearly two-thirds (65%) report praying at least daily and nearly half (47%) say they attend religious services at least weekly. By all of these traditional measures, Muslims in the U.S. are roughly as religious as U.S. Christians, although they are less religious than Muslims in many other nations.


When it comes to political and social views, Muslims are far more likely to identify with or lean toward the Democratic Party (70%) than the Republican Party (11%) and to say they prefer a bigger government providing more services (68%) over a smaller government providing fewer services (21%). As of 2011, U.S. Muslims were somewhat split between those who said homosexuality should be accepted by society (39%) and those who said it should be discouraged (45%), although the group had grown considerably more accepting of homosexuality since a similar survey was conducted in 2007.​

Section 5: Political Opinions and Social Values

Muslim Americans show strong support for allowing women to join the workforce. Nine-in-ten either completely (72%) or mostly agree (18%) that women should be able to work outside the home. Among the U.S. general public, almost all either completely (81%) or mostly (16%) agree with this.

Attitudes among Muslim Americans are similar to attitudes among Muslims in Lebanon and Turkey. But support for women working outside the home is considerably smaller in many other Muslim nations. For example, in Egypt, only about six-in-ten say they either completely agree (23%) or mostly agree (39%) that women should be allowed to work outside the home. About four-in-ten (39%) disagree.

Nearly seven-in-ten U.S. Muslims (68%) say gender makes no difference in the quality of political leaders. Still, about a quarter (27%) say men make better political leaders. Very few (4%) say women make better leaders. There are only slight differences in views on this between men and women and among various age groups. Among the U.S. public, 72% say gender does not determine who will be the better political leader. About one-in-ten each say men (12%) or women (13%) make better lead

​

3. How you treat other posters is of no concern to me in this discussion. That is between you and them. I am more concerned with the topic and not a side argument over past threads.

4. So you would be willing to take on any people as long as they can make it here?

This type of belief is just not feasible in our society. If we didn't have any social benefits then possibly.... But we just can afford adding people from the 3rd world. Not to mention the harm it would do our culture to be flooded with 3rd worlders.

No, I would not be willing to take on any people. I would not take those convicted of violent crimes for example. I'm not "open borders". I think there should be a good vetting process for people from certain countries and we do need to have limits. I don't think it's because of our social benefits system, since few tend to utilize them, and when they do it's not for long. Most want to work.

The question I have though, is that your argument - " the harm it would do our culture to be flooded with 3rd worlders" - is the same argument that has been applied to many other immigrant groups over successive waves of immigration: Irish, Chinese, East European Jews, Italians etc. and the sky never fell.

And it's not courageous for fighting aged men to flee the fight to go to the west. Were you also cheering on the guy in titanic who got on the lifeboat ahead of women and children? Was he courageous?

I don't think it is that black and white. Many of those "fighting age men" are not - they're just men, and there is no breakdown in ages in the data. There is also considerable differences in the different groups. For migrants and refugees trying to make it to Europe, 53% are men, with no age breakdown.

That number includes all migrants. However, the number of Syrian refugees overall, is dominated by women and children, most of whom are in the camps.

I don't consider it comparable to the life boat situation because I can see why men would go first. The journey is tremendously dangerous, with a high mortality rate and an uncertain future. The family is usually left in relative safety by comparison. While the conditions are bad in the refugee camps, at least they aren't being straffed by barrel bombs or sold as sex slaves by ISIS. I would think it would be the men who would take the risks to try and establish themselves and bring their families over.

I've heard the argument before that these men are cowardly and should stay and fight. My response is this - who are we to judge them when we do not walk in their shoes? Listening to interviews with refugees from the Syrian conflict - what they and their families have been through is horrendous. It's a war with no clear sides and horrible atrocities perpetrated on civilians. It's not a new argument. In fact, the same arguments were made in taking Jewish refugees during the holocaust. Some countries that were willing to take them, would only take the children. So desperate parents sent their children to try and save them. And of course, the parents died. In a conflict like Syria - I wouldn't judge the men. That's different than the migrants though, but even then - they are fleeing different things so you can't just broadly judge it, it's case by case.

As for being human beings.... If they are brought up to believe In oppression and rape of women and children.... Just how human are they? Sounds more like how animals believe....

Just how human are they? Very.

You assume they are all rapists and abusers regardless of background, education, culture and individuality. I disagree with that assumption.

All We have is all these personal accounts of women who have been raped and sexually assaulted by Arab and African men. Migrants are African and Arab.

What's odd is that you take these personal accounts and dismiss them.

Even if you live at the holy altar of government crime stats. Where there is smoke there is fire. Unless you think these women are making stuff up?

Probably should consider that Sweden stopped charting gang rape stats in 2006 because it was rising. Stats are kept to make police efforts look better. There has been a long Muslim problem in Sweden for a time. Same as Finland.

 

[Tilly]

Regardless of the rape apologists obfuscations and lies, Islam has a rape culture, and we've invited it into Europe. Now we are paying.

 

[StLucieBengal]

There is a lot of gibberish talked about the role of women in Islam. It really isnt as straightforward as the frothers would make out.

Afghanistan[edit]

• Miss Kubra Nurzai

First female minister of Afghanistan. The third Afghan Constitution (in 1964 under King Zahir Shah) gave women the right to vote and enter parliament as elected candidates for the first time. As a result, in elections the following year three women were elected as members of the parliament and two appointed as members of the senate. Kubra Nurzai was appointed Minister of Public Health in 1965 and re-appointed in 1967.[12]

• Massouda Jalal

After graduating medical school in Kabul in 1988, she practiced as a physician until 1999 when the rule of the Taliban made this impossible. She began working for the women-led UN World Food Progamme (WFP) in 1999. After the Taliban was removed from power in 2002 she was one of 200 women who participated in the loya jirga. She ran for president in 2002, becoming the first woman to run for this position in Afghanistan. She won 171 votes (the second most ballots received) in the 2002 presidential election against Karzai.[13] She lost the election to Hamid Karzai but served within his cabinet as the Women's Affairs Minister from 2004-2006. Jalal was later nominated to study in Washington, DC at the Center for Development and Population Activities (CEDPA), which teaches women how to advance their leadership roles.[13]

• Azra Jafari

One of 200 women who participated in the loya jirga after the fall of the Taliban in 2002. She is the first female mayor in Afghanistan. She is the current mayor of Nili, a town inDaykundi Province of Afghanistan.

• Fawzia Koofi

In 2014 she became a candidate for President of Afghanistan after being elected as the Vice President of the National Assembly of Afghanistan in 2005. As Vice President she became the first female Second Deputy Speaker of Parliament.

• Sima Samar

She served as the Afghanistan Ministry of Women's Affairs from 2001-2003.

• Frozan Fana

Ran in the Afghan Presidential Election of 2009.

• Shahla Atta

Ran in the Afghan Presidential Election of 2009.

Azerbaijan[edit]

• Lala Shevket

She is a Professor and Doctor of medicine. She became the first female ambassador in Azerbaijan in 1993. She served as the Secretary of State in Azerbaijan from 1993-1994. She chose to resign from this position because of her dissatisfaction with corruption within the government. She founded the Azerbaijan Liberal Party in 1995 and has conducted Presidential runs as the head of this party.[14]

Bahrain[edit]

• Lateefa Al Gaood

First female elected to the Council of Representatives of Bahrain in 2006 and is the only female to ever have been a council member.

• Nada Haffadh
• First ever female cabinet minister when she was appointed as the Minister of Health in 2004. She also served within the upper house of parliament in the Consultative Council in 2007.
  
  Bangladesh[edit]
  As the third most populous Muslim-majority country, Bangladesh has been ruled, as of 2016, for the last 25 years by female Prime Ministers[15] by electing Khaleda Zia[16] andSheikh Hasina as prime ministers.
  • Sheikh Hasina
  Prime Minister of Bangladesh from 1996-2001 and 2009–Present. She is a member of the Council of Women World Leaders.
  • Khaleda Zia
  Prime Minister of Bangladesh from 1991-1996 and 2001-2006. When elected in 1991 she became the first female Prime Minister of Bangladesh and the second female leader in the Muslim world to be a leader of a democratic government.[17] She is also the chairperson and leader of the Bangladesh Nationalist Party and has been ranked by Forbes three times as the 100 Most Powerful Women in the World. [17][18][19]
  
  Egypt[edit]
  Nearly one-third of the Parliament of Egypt- the fifth most populous Muslim majority nation- also consists of women.[20]
  • Rawya Ateya
  In 1956 she became the first woman to be commissioned as an officer in the Liberation Army of Egypt. She is considered to be a pioneer for female leaders in Muslim-majority countries. She was the first female Parliamentarian in the Arab world when in 1957 she served in the Parliament of Egypt.[21][22]
  
  Indonesia[edit]
  The most populous Muslim-majority country.
  • Megawati Sukarnoputri
  She served as president of Indonesia from 2001-2004, becoming the first female president of Indonesia and the fourth female to lead a Muslim-majority nation.[23]
  
  Jordan[edit]
  • Toujan al-Faisal
  She became Jordan's first female member of Parliament when elected in 1993. She faced lots of backlash as a female in this position, including arrests and mistreatment while imprisoned, causing a global outcry and the assistance of Amnesty International.
  
  Kosovo[edit]
  • Atifete Jahjaga
  In the Muslim majority territory of Kosovo, President Atifete Jahjaga was unanimously elected by the Assembly of Kosovo on April 7, 2011.[24]
  
  Kyrgyzstan[edit]
  • Roza Otunbayeva
  As an atheist,[25] she was sworn in as President of the Muslim-majority Kyrgyzstan on 3 July 2010, after acting as interim leader following the Tulip Revolution.
  
  Pakistan[edit]
  The second most populous Muslim-majority country.
  
  
• • Benazir Bhutto
  In 1982 she became the first female in Pakistan to lead a political party, the Pakistan People's Party. Her father, Zulfiqar Ali Bhutto, founded thePakistan People's Party in 1968.[26] She was elected twice as the Prime Minister [27] of Pakistan. Her first election to Prime Minister in 1988 made her the first woman to lead a Muslim-majority country. She served in this position from 1988-1990 and from 1992-1996. She was assassinated as a candidate in the 2008 election for Prime Minister.
  
  Senegal[edit]
  • Mame Madior Boye
  She was elected as the Minister of Justice in 2000 and was Prime Minister from 2001 to 2002. She is the first female in Senegal to hold this position.
  
  Turkey[edit]
  • Tansu Çiller
  Became Prime Minister of Turkey in 1993. Four Muslim countries have been or are currently led by women because of successions after deceased fathers, husbands, etc. Ciller, however, won her position as Prime Minister entirely on her own.[28] Ciller attended Robert College and later received her Master’s and Ph.D. Ciller returned to Turkey and taught economics at Bosphorus University after her husband was offered a good job. She entered politics in 1990 by joining the True Path Party (which she is now the president of) under Suleyman Demirel. Ciller quickly became assistant of the party, and then entered the 1991 election where she won and received the responsibility for ministry of economy in the government. President Turgu Ozal died in 1993, so Demirel took his position as president. Ciller saw her chance and took it, for she won the position as prime minister in June 1993. Tansu Ciller is one of Turkey’s most powerful politicians and is said to be the key to forming the next government. Ciller’s supporters favor her modernization/westernization ideas. Despite her followers, Ciller also had many people against her reforms. Ciller was forced to leave the government after she made some unpopular actions as prime minister. Her questionable decisions led to three different parliamentary investigations on her, so Ciller decided to leave office in 1995. Despite her mistakes, Ciller still remains very powerful today.[29]

All of these oppressed women have managed to make it to the top in savage third world shitholes. It doesnt really tally with a narrative of downtrodden submissive housewives who cant go out of the house without permission.

I do recognise that it isnt the full story but neither is the broad brush approach to 1.6bn people.

Meanwhile in the Land of the Free a woman who is standing for President is described as all sorts of disgusting things. Her daughter is castigated for the crime of being "******* ugly" as well.

Another candidates wife is used as some sort of trophy to beat up a rivals wife who isnt a supermodel.

A tv reporter who has the cheek to do her job is thought to be having a period.

Women earn less than men and have the pleasure of men deciding what is best for their bodies.

Male rapists in this country are set free if a conviction will damage their career prospects and all in all its a lot more nuanced than the idiocracy would have you believe.

You think your slick posting a book so no one will actually go through this mess.

How many of these women came to power under secular leadership?

I know the Turkish PM was under a secular led government.

It's funny to see you grandstand and the minions who like the post. None of you have taken the time to educate yourselves on this list. And that's why logic leaves these boards and makes it practically impossible to have a logical conversation because for you guys its all about emotion.

I'm sure I am not the only one who. Called this out. I haven't gotten that far in the thread yet to see the others blast this post.

 

[StLucieBengal]

What is clear is that people are not prepared to discuss the subject as adults.

The hysterical mindset does not allow for that.

Oh there is a lot of clear things in this thread. Your lazy posts being one of them.

Coyote at least engages and discusses even though she takes the emotional position over the logical one.

 

[StLucieBengal]

Rape has been a weapon of war since time immemorial. Some fools seem to think it started with Islam. They call it "rape jihad", a recently coined term that did not exist a few decades ago. Perhaps these fools should check out the Old Testement, and see what it has to say about rape and war. Is that "rape jihad" too?

Rape jihad didn't exist when they did it to the Byzantines?

Didn't become prominent out in the open in Egypt when The Muslim brotherhood took over. (Thanks Obama)

Rape jihad is just shaming women to the point they don't want to have non Muslim children or if they are lucky they pregnate the victims with a Muslim kid.

 

[Dogmaphobe]

Only a piece of true excrement would call the rejection of rape an act of bigotry.

Your "concern" for rape comes to a stuttering halt when it doesn't involve Muslims. Your obsession with excrement is duly noted, Dogcrap.

By the way, why did you chose a poll from a hate site, instead of a reputable one like Pew, when you attempted to demonize American Muslims? Was it because
Pew didn't portray them as the evil intolerant thugs you wish them to be?

This will only work if you actually take it, filth.

 

[Uncensored2008]

Thank you for you're valuable contribution to this discussion. Perhaps, some day you can tell us why you chose to use a discredited poll from a hate site over a reputable source in your rabid efforts to demonize Muslims. Think you can answer that sweetie or will it make it obvious to all what a bigot you are under that thin veneer of "liberal values"?

He used a poll from the Huffington Post?

 

[Uncensored2008]

The Myth of Rape Jihad

A new term coined by modern day bigots attempting to instill the fear of MOOOOOOSSSSLIIIIIMMMMMS in us white women. I'm sure some are daily wetting their panties over this. Rape has long been a tool of war, if you have any doubts, look at what has been occurring and is still occuring in the Congo civil war. Of course, it's not of interest to some of the denizens in this thread because it doesn't involve Muslims as either victims or perpetrators of atrocities, and participants are all Africans, which probably even makes it less interesting to some but it is an example of exactly how horrifically "rape jihad" is being used as a weapon of war, even to brutalizing infants.

For some reason, people now seem to think that every act of rape, sexual assault, or harrassment by someone who is foreign looking and possibly Muslim is a clear act of "rape jihad". Not rape. Not sexual assault. Not sexual harrassment. But this brand new made up term: rape jihad because the prevailing hysteria is all Muslims want to do is destroy us, and if they can't do it by propoganda (which is tough to comprehend how 1.6 billion Muslims, including groups that don't even get along with each other, can come up with an agreed-upon propoganda) then by gum, it's going to be rape jihad. Sweden's crime statistics don't even come close to supporting this claim.

Perhaps it's largely fabricated out of fear and xenophobic hatred? Or maybe it grew from a false claim from Pamela Gellar about a supposed fatwa calling for "sexual jihad". This fatwa does not appear to exist outside of Gellar's imagination.

Rape is indeed a weapon of war, one which your Muslim allies are using liberally in Europe as part of your war on Western Civilization. You excuse it simply because of your goal to crush Western culture.

 

[Uncensored2008]

You'd be funny, if you weren't so pathetically bigoted.

Why did you choose that poll, eh?

Bigoted against rape?

 

[Tilly]

Such respect for women:

Gang of French Muslims probed by police after group of British women assaulted in Spain
A GANG of French Muslims have been probed by police after a group of British women holidaymakers were assaulted at a popular Spanish tourist resort.
By GERARD COUZENS
PUBLISHED: 14:20, Thu, Aug 25, 2016 | UPDATED: 14:21, Thu, Aug 25, 2016

GETTY

Puerto Banus is southwest of Marbella, Spain on the Costa del Sol
One woman, a 19-year-old from Farnborough in Hampshire, suffered a broken nose after being punched in the face.

A second woman, a 20-year-old from Essex, was taken to hospital semi-conscious with arm and head injuries.

Witnesses claimed the men, French-born but of Arabic origin, began to attack the young women in the upmarket resort of Puerto Banus near Marbella after one tried to touch up the teenager who suffered the broken nose.

One man was arrested for assault and three friends taken with him to a nearby police station so they could be identified as part of an ongoing investigation. ...

Gang of French Muslims probed by police after group of British women assaulted in Spain

 

[Dogmaphobe]

You excuse it simply because of your goal to crush Western culture.

Which, in turn, is caused by a lack of self-worth.

When those who lack a sense of self worth look inside themselves and recognize just how worthless they feel, the honest and courageous people take stock of themselves and take measures to improve their worth -- not only to themselves, but to others as well. Cowardly, simpering individuals, however, simply blame their worthlessness on everybody else, and so align themselves with those seeking to destroy their own culture in a childish exhibition of nihilistic acting out.

 

[StLucieBengal]

Such respect for women:

Gang of French Muslims probed by police after group of British women assaulted in Spain
A GANG of French Muslims have been probed by police after a group of British women holidaymakers were assaulted at a popular Spanish tourist resort.
By GERARD COUZENS
PUBLISHED: 14:20, Thu, Aug 25, 2016 | UPDATED: 14:21, Thu, Aug 25, 2016

GETTY

Puerto Banus is southwest of Marbella, Spain on the Costa del Sol
One woman, a 19-year-old from Farnborough in Hampshire, suffered a broken nose after being punched in the face.

A second woman, a 20-year-old from Essex, was taken to hospital semi-conscious with arm and head injuries.

Witnesses claimed the men, French-born but of Arabic origin, began to attack the young women in the upmarket resort of Puerto Banus near Marbella after one tried to touch up the teenager who suffered the broken nose.

One man was arrested for assault and three friends taken with him to a nearby police station so they could be identified as part of an ongoing investigation. ...

Gang of French Muslims probed by police after group of British women assaulted in Spain

wait this article says that Muslims are in the wrong...... Must be a fake article from a hate site

 

[Coyote]

Coyote what is your fascination with Islam and these migrants?

It seems you desperately want to make every known excuse in the book for them.

One. I'm not making excuses. Name one excuse I've given for rape, or any other violent behavior. I want the truth. What is the truth? What are the facts when you strip emotional hype and fear?

Fear drives us to unspeakable things to our fellow people.

My fascination is less with Islam then it is with scapegoating and broadbrushing an entire group of people and right now, it's acceptable to scapegoat Muslims broadly and completely, with out regard to whether it's conspiracy theory, the actions of a few, or hype over fact. Seems to be me any right thinking person should be concerned when a group gets scapegoated. We don't tolerate it when it's Jews or Blacks do we? How do our resident racists/anti-semites get treated? Not with respect. But when it comes to Muslims, it's the broad brush and if you question it, ask for facts, you are labeled.

I'll give an example. Why do I press Dogma on the issue of a poll? Because, in a thread on American Muslims, he wanted to show that American Muslims are just as violent, extremist, intolerant, etc as he views Muslims in other countries. Previously he had used Pew, a well respected non-partisan source for views of Muslims around the world towards Sharia, apostacy, homosexuality and women's rights. So did he use Pew in this thread? No. He chose a poll that who's methodology is roundly criticized and debunked, from a site widely considered way out there by many, and a hate site, who's results purported to show something like over 50% suppported religous violence and Sharia as law of the land, or something. This completely contradicted Pew, which showed American Muslims are largely the same as other demographic groups in America in their opinions towards seperation of religion and state, violence, homosexuality, and women's rights. So, Pew is "good enough" for worldwide opinion but suddenly not "good enough" for American Muslim opinion? When a person deliberately chooses to use something from a disreputable site over something from a reputable site - I think it's reasonable to ask "why" and what are the motivations?

My "fascination" with migrants and refugees is because they are PEOPLE, living, breathing people who have gone through horrendous experiences in an attempt to escape what are often desperate situations. It takes a particular desperation and courage to do that, and the death toll in those sea voyages and at the hands of traffickers is very high. We tend to forget they are human beings.

1. This entire thread is about a conspiracy against Muslims. This is an excuse to the media reports of them rapefugees.

Conspiracy theories aren't backed by data or facts. My thread's OP is backed by crime statistics over a period of time. The same sort of crime statistics, I might add, that are perfectly acceptable under other circumstances. The fact that you refer to refugees/migrants as whole as "rapefugees" pretty much supports my position.

2. On broad stroking a group of people.... If it walks like a duck, quacks like a duck, and looks like a duck... It's a duck.

Muslims worldwide share the belief in oppression of women and children. Not all rape away in praise to Allah. But they do support wearing oppressive garmets.

This is my biggest issue with Islam. Their constant oppression, which has no place in western society. Which is why I would shut the borders to them. Until they had a reformation to remove these beliefs and teachings . My wife is Russian orthodox and wears a scarf in church but only wears it in church. She doesn't wear it everywhere .... She still believes in God and isn't any less of an orthodox because of this .... How is this any different than a Muslim?

There I disagree with you, because it assumes two things - that all Muslims adhere to the most conservative aspects of Islam, that they all believe in oppressing women, and that Islam is unchangeable. Attitudes towards women vary according to the culture of the people who practice that faith. For example - look at FGM. It's most prevalent in N. Africa, and in the countries where it is still practiced, it is done by Christian, Animaist and Muslims alike. Yet, in other Muslim majority countries it is unheard of. There is nothing in Islam itself that demands it - it's a cultural legacy.

Opinions of Muslims towards the role of women around the world may lag behind those of western countries, but within Western countries, like the US, Muslim opinions are in line with that of other demographic groups.

Muslims and Islam: Key findings in the U.S. and around the world

What do American Muslims believe?

Our 2011 survey of Muslim Americans found that roughly half of U.S. Muslims (48%) say their own religious leaders have not done enough to speak out against Islamic extremists.


Living in a religiously pluralistic society, Muslim Americans are more likely than Muslims in many other nations to have many non-Muslim friends. Only about half (48%) of U.S. Muslims say all or most of their close friends are also Muslims, compared with a global median of 95% in the 39 countries we surveyed.


Roughly seven-in-ten U.S. Muslims (69%) say religion is very important in their lives. Virtually all (96%) say they believe in God, nearly two-thirds (65%) report praying at least daily and nearly half (47%) say they attend religious services at least weekly. By all of these traditional measures, Muslims in the U.S. are roughly as religious as U.S. Christians, although they are less religious than Muslims in many other nations.


When it comes to political and social views, Muslims are far more likely to identify with or lean toward the Democratic Party (70%) than the Republican Party (11%) and to say they prefer a bigger government providing more services (68%) over a smaller government providing fewer services (21%). As of 2011, U.S. Muslims were somewhat split between those who said homosexuality should be accepted by society (39%) and those who said it should be discouraged (45%), although the group had grown considerably more accepting of homosexuality since a similar survey was conducted in 2007.​

Section 5: Political Opinions and Social Values

Muslim Americans show strong support for allowing women to join the workforce. Nine-in-ten either completely (72%) or mostly agree (18%) that women should be able to work outside the home. Among the U.S. general public, almost all either completely (81%) or mostly (16%) agree with this.

Attitudes among Muslim Americans are similar to attitudes among Muslims in Lebanon and Turkey. But support for women working outside the home is considerably smaller in many other Muslim nations. For example, in Egypt, only about six-in-ten say they either completely agree (23%) or mostly agree (39%) that women should be allowed to work outside the home. About four-in-ten (39%) disagree.

Nearly seven-in-ten U.S. Muslims (68%) say gender makes no difference in the quality of political leaders. Still, about a quarter (27%) say men make better political leaders. Very few (4%) say women make better leaders. There are only slight differences in views on this between men and women and among various age groups. Among the U.S. public, 72% say gender does not determine who will be the better political leader. About one-in-ten each say men (12%) or women (13%) make better lead

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3. How you treat other posters is of no concern to me in this discussion. That is between you and them. I am more concerned with the topic and not a side argument over past threads.

4. So you would be willing to take on any people as long as they can make it here?

This type of belief is just not feasible in our society. If we didn't have any social benefits then possibly.... But we just can afford adding people from the 3rd world. Not to mention the harm it would do our culture to be flooded with 3rd worlders.

No, I would not be willing to take on any people. I would not take those convicted of violent crimes for example. I'm not "open borders". I think there should be a good vetting process for people from certain countries and we do need to have limits. I don't think it's because of our social benefits system, since few tend to utilize them, and when they do it's not for long. Most want to work.

The question I have though, is that your argument - " the harm it would do our culture to be flooded with 3rd worlders" - is the same argument that has been applied to many other immigrant groups over successive waves of immigration: Irish, Chinese, East European Jews, Italians etc. and the sky never fell.

And it's not courageous for fighting aged men to flee the fight to go to the west. Were you also cheering on the guy in titanic who got on the lifeboat ahead of women and children? Was he courageous?

I don't think it is that black and white. Many of those "fighting age men" are not - they're just men, and there is no breakdown in ages in the data. There is also considerable differences in the different groups. For migrants and refugees trying to make it to Europe, 53% are men, with no age breakdown.

That number includes all migrants. However, the number of Syrian refugees overall, is dominated by women and children, most of whom are in the camps.

I don't consider it comparable to the life boat situation because I can see why men would go first. The journey is tremendously dangerous, with a high mortality rate and an uncertain future. The family is usually left in relative safety by comparison. While the conditions are bad in the refugee camps, at least they aren't being straffed by barrel bombs or sold as sex slaves by ISIS. I would think it would be the men who would take the risks to try and establish themselves and bring their families over.

I've heard the argument before that these men are cowardly and should stay and fight. My response is this - who are we to judge them when we do not walk in their shoes? Listening to interviews with refugees from the Syrian conflict - what they and their families have been through is horrendous. It's a war with no clear sides and horrible atrocities perpetrated on civilians. It's not a new argument. In fact, the same arguments were made in taking Jewish refugees during the holocaust. Some countries that were willing to take them, would only take the children. So desperate parents sent their children to try and save them. And of course, the parents died. In a conflict like Syria - I wouldn't judge the men. That's different than the migrants though, but even then - they are fleeing different things so you can't just broadly judge it, it's case by case.

As for being human beings.... If they are brought up to believe In oppression and rape of women and children.... Just how human are they? Sounds more like how animals believe....

Just how human are they? Very.

You assume they are all rapists and abusers regardless of background, education, culture and individuality. I disagree with that assumption.

All We have is all these personal accounts of women who have been raped and sexually assaulted by Arab and African men. Migrants are African and Arab.

What's odd is that you take these personal accounts and dismiss them.

Even if you live at the holy altar of government crime stats. Where there is smoke there is fire. Unless you think these women are making stuff up?

Probably should consider that Sweden stopped charting gang rape stats in 2006 because it was rising. Stats are kept to make police efforts look better. There has been a long Muslim problem in Sweden for a time. Same as Finland.

Actually, what we have are personal accounts that actually include few rapes, lots of sexual harrassment and assault claims.

I frankly think that the claim "where there is smoke there is fire" is a bad thing to go by. It can ruin innocent people's lives and reputations. Personal testimonials are iffy as reliable unless they are investigated. If you think Sweden stopped charting crime stats in 2006, then offer some evidence for it. Personally my thought is that a ten year conspiracy of silence and deliberate hiding of crime statistics throughout an entire nation, in a society as open as Sweden's would be difficult to pull off and not very believable.

I'm not outright dismissing claims - I'm saying all claims should be investigated and some have been verified and even arrests made. But I'm skeptical because there is a mass hysteria aspect to it that is not reflected in official crime rates. When you couple that with increased xenophobia, a rise in rightwing nationalism and anti-immigrant sentiment overall that is looking for scapegoats, then any reasonable person should be careful of jumping to conclusions. There are two things you can always count on to anger and mobilize a population: outsiders raping their women and sexually abusing children and that occurs in every culture.

I mentioned earlier examples with attitudes of whites towards black men during Jim Crowe, and how innocent men were lynched for just looking at a white woman wrong. A more recent example involves sexual abuse of children. Some years ago...maybe the 80's or 90's?....there was a rash of claims of sexual abuse of children in daycares. There was a fairly new psychiatric method by which they interviewed extremely young children, I'm thinking as young as 1-2, barely verbal, and got them to give information leading them to believe the child had been molested. The method was controversial and untested, there was no physical evidence supporting it, but it was used to charge people and take them to court. The result was massive hysteria, news coverage, etc and parents wanting their children examined. The outcome of it was, few convictions, I think, but also people subsequently found innocent, their lives completely ruined because of the "where there's smoke there's fire" and it led to descrediting of that particular pschological tool. So, were these kids being molested? In some cases, I'm sure they were. In others, not. But the hysteria that just the possibility it could have occurred created a mood that pushed events faster than they could be investigated responsibly, and into the court of public opinion.

That is why I'm skeptical of claims of "mass rapes on white women" and "sexual jihad". And, I also suspect that now someone is going to claim I support abuse of children.

 

[Coyote]

Rape has been a weapon of war since time immemorial. Some fools seem to think it started with Islam. They call it "rape jihad", a recently coined term that did not exist a few decades ago. Perhaps these fools should check out the Old Testement, and see what it has to say about rape and war. Is that "rape jihad" too?

Rape jihad didn't exist when they did it to the Byzantines?

Didn't become prominent out in the open in Egypt when The Muslim brotherhood took over. (Thanks Obama)

Rape jihad is just shaming women to the point they don't want to have non Muslim children or if they are lucky they pregnate the victims with a Muslim kid.

Rape jihad did not exist. Rape as a tool of war certainly did, and I doubt you would find a single civilization in the pre-modern era that did not use it, and it is still used in many conflicts. What people who are now calling it "rape jihad" are trying to do is make it seem as if it's unique to Islamic conflicts.

 

[Coyote]

Rape has been a weapon of war since time immemorial. Some fools seem to think it started with Islam. They call it "rape jihad", a recently coined term that did not exist a few decades ago. Perhaps these fools should check out the Old Testement, and see what it has to say about rape and war. Is that "rape jihad" too?

Rape jihad didn't exist when they did it to the Byzantines?

Didn't become prominent out in the open in Egypt when The Muslim brotherhood took over. (Thanks Obama)

Rape jihad is just shaming women to the point they don't want to have non Muslim children or if they are lucky they pregnate the victims with a Muslim kid.

That occurs in a number of conservative religious groups - they don't want daughters marrying outside the faith or having children outside the faith.

 

[Coyote]

You excuse it simply because of your goal to crush Western culture.

Which, in turn, is caused by a lack of self-worth.

When those who lack a sense of self worth look inside themselves and recognize just how worthless they feel, the honest and courageous people take stock of themselves and take measures to improve their worth -- not only to themselves, but to others as well. Cowardly, simpering individuals, however, simply blame their worthlessness on everybody else, and so align themselves with those seeking to destroy their own culture in a childish exhibition of nihilistic acting out.

Was it lack of self worth that caused you to select a discredited poll from a hate site over the reputable sources you normally use or is it simply that your pathological hatred of all Muslims, even Americans, has created a total breakdown in your integrity and honesty?

Not that I expect an honest answer from you

 

[StLucieBengal]

I just love these threads started by rape apologists.
They could give a damn less about the victims.

Oh please, you know damn well you guys don't give a damn about rape, or other abusive crimes against women and girls such as child marriages UNLESS Muslims are involved

Feel free to test than theory and post a thread about a story of a pedo rapist and see what happens .

Here is a list of threads involving abusive practices to women, rape, child rape, etc. Feel free to join in. Most didn't get much attention.

Ex-Employee Leaks Details About Refugee Abuse On Nauru
Child Marriages
Rape
Worst Places for Women
For India's Widows, A Riot Of Color, An Act Of Liberation
Congolese Doctor Denis Mukwege Receives Sakharov Prize
In Congo, Trapped In Violence And Forgotten

I will check these as I go. But if you are looking for sympathy for anyone who chooses not to live right then you are barking up the wrong tree.

I would shut borders from any place that oppresses women and/or children. I think we need less of these people and more of the people who know how to live right.

My sister in law lives in Belarus and she would be a much better addition to any western country than anyone from the Middle East outside of Israel. But she refuses to enter any country by hook or crook.

If you want to discuss immigration policy then I would take a page from the US immigration 1924 and limit each country to 3% yearly of the foreign born population of legal citizens. I would block the Middle East and Central America. One being at war with Islamic terrorism and Central America for the purpose to allow us to work through all the current illegals in this country. Given most are from Central America. A 10 year hold on immigration from these parts should allow us to catch up and tackle the current illegals. After we round up any of them who have had a felony and deported them immediately.

Immigration should be a slow and steady drip so they can assimilate to our nation and our cultural beliefs since they are moving to be part of our culture.

I love the Australian point system for immigration. If you are not familiar then I encourage you to familiarize yourself.

In light of your feelings about the oppression of women, you might want to rethink whether you want to bring in people from Belarus...

Empowering Belarusian Women to Combat Domestic Violence

Every fourth woman in Belarus has been physically abused by her partner. Just in the last three months, 24 Belarusians have died as a result of domestic violence, a 41% increase from last year.


For decades, impunity for such abuse has persisted in Belarus, a country with a traditional view on a women’s place in society and a troublesome human rights record for both men and women. Domestic violence is finally becoming a public issue and preventative and punitive measures are being taken...

...A typical Belarusian domestic bully is a man in his thirties or forties, intoxicated and unemployed, according to Oleg Karazei, Head of the Prevention Office of the Central Department for Law Enforcement and Prevention of the Belarusian Interior Ministry. Thus, a high level of alcohol consumption, economic problems, and the lower status of women may contribute to the high prevalence of domestic violence in Belarus.

The Role of Culture and Gender Roles


Most important, the prevalence of domestic violence correlates with the status of women and cultural norms regarding gender roles. On the one hand, the law treats women and men in Belarus equally. The country has acceded to all major relevant international conventions related to the rights of women, including the Convention on the Elimination of All Forms of Discrimination against Women (Women’s Convention) and 
its Optional Protocol.


On the other hand, discrimination against women on the job market and the so-called “glass ceiling” remain prevalent. Patriarchal notions of a woman's role in the family pervade the social and political sphere. Belarusian women are largely responsible for child upbringing, and President Lukashenka himself views women primarily as “keepers of hearth and home". For example, in 2010 he said, "It is undeniable that the Lord has ordained a woman to be a mother. Regardless of a woman's career, she has to care for her children. I want our women to give birth to at least three children."


Gender stereotypes make violence easier to justify and can prevent women from reporting abuse. Cultural norms play a large role in the way women choose to respond to violence. Women in Belarus, as well as in other post-Soviet states, are expected "not to wash their dirty laundry in public".​

I can only assume this was supposed to be your "gotcha" post showing me that Belarusian women are victims as well. Not sure what point you were trying to make especially when i said my sister in law. Now I should make sure that you know that sister in law means a woman. She isnt one of those trannies or delusional pretenders. An actual real life woman here.....

I am really not sure what point you are trying to make. That men who drink get into violent fits and pick on someone weaker than them? Belarusian culture doesn't oppress women. They are equals in society....

This was interesting...


..A typical Belarusian domestic bully is a man in his thirties or forties, intoxicated and unemployed, according to Oleg Karazei, Head of the Prevention Office of the Central Department for Law Enforcement and Prevention of the Belarusian Interior Ministry. Thus, a high level of alcohol consumption, economic problems, and the lower status of women may contribute to the high prevalence of domestic violence in Belarus.

You know what we didnt see in there....... Their religion telling them its ok and permitted to abuse, rape, or assault their women. They have drinking problem when it comes to violence at home. Not a religion problem. Same as we have here.....

 

[StLucieBengal]

Rape has been a weapon of war since time immemorial. Some fools seem to think it started with Islam. They call it "rape jihad", a recently coined term that did not exist a few decades ago. Perhaps these fools should check out the Old Testement, and see what it has to say about rape and war. Is that "rape jihad" too?

Rape jihad didn't exist when they did it to the Byzantines?

Didn't become prominent out in the open in Egypt when The Muslim brotherhood took over. (Thanks Obama)

Rape jihad is just shaming women to the point they don't want to have non Muslim children or if they are lucky they pregnate the victims with a Muslim kid.

That occurs in a number of conservative religious groups - they don't want daughters marrying outside the faith or having children outside the faith.

Yes but how many religions promote rape to hinder outsiders?

 

[Uncensored2008]

[


Was it lack of self worth that caused you to select a discredited poll from a hate site over the reputable sources you normally use or is it simply that your pathological hatred of all Muslims, even Americans, has created a total breakdown in your integrity and honesty?

Not that I expect an honest answer from you

Which hate site did he use? DailyKOS? ThinkProgress? Alternet? Democratic Underground? MoveOn?

All that hatred has a common source...