Death of the Republic, the Michael Flynn chapter.

[SavannahMann]

No, as part of Flynn’s plea deal, he had to cooperate with the investigation. He did provide information, but not what the Agents were convinced happened, and the Prosecutor went to the Judge and said that Flynn was no cooperating and should go to prison for his crimes. Flynn changed his plea to Not Guilty.

Okay, without getting into the whole issue, the point was, HE DID EXACTLY WHAT HE WAS ACCUSED OF.

This isn't like a black kid who got a bag of coke planted in his trunk, Flynn did what he was accused of doing. He lied about his discussions with the Russians. He lied about his contacts and lobbying for the Turkish government, including attempts to extradite a Turkish dissident who would have faced execution. This is NOT a nice man.

In the end, either the rules matter, the constitution matters, or it does not. If it doesn’t, then we should stop pretending we are a Republic, we would not be. We would not be a democracy either. We would be either a Fascist or Socialist dictatorship.

The constitution has a remedy, it's called a "Pardon", if Trump truly feels that Flynn's service to the country outweighed his crimes. Flynn doing "backsies" after he was caught because Barr is ignoring his duty is not a remedy.

I worry a lot more about an administration committing crimes because they know their own people won't prosecute them for it, rather than, "you didn't dot all the i's on your paperwork." That's when we drift towards dictatorship.

No. The Constitutional remedy is suppression of the evidence. The Fourth Amendment. The remedy is not to prosecute because of insufficient evidence. It is the same remedy that has been in use forever. Why is it inappropriate now?

 

[JoeB131]

No. The Constitutional remedy is suppression of the evidence. The Fourth Amendment. The remedy is not to prosecute because of insufficient evidence. It is the same remedy that has been in use forever. Why is it inappropriate now?

The Constitution isn't a suicide pact.

This is a guy who had access to the highest levels of national security, and he was on the payroll of the Russians, who also had evidence of criminality on his part.

If we can't hold that accountable, who do we hold accountable.

 

[SavannahMann]

No. The Constitutional remedy is suppression of the evidence. The Fourth Amendment. The remedy is not to prosecute because of insufficient evidence. It is the same remedy that has been in use forever. Why is it inappropriate now?

The Constitution isn't a suicide pact.

This is a guy who had access to the highest levels of national security, and he was on the payroll of the Russians, who also had evidence of criminality on his part.

If we can't hold that accountable, who do we hold accountable.

Either the Constitution is the supreme law of the land and applies to everyone or we are not a Constitutional Republic. We are one of those tin pot dictatorships that have the laws written in pencil.

 

[JoeB131]

Either the Constitution is the supreme law of the land and applies to everyone or we are not a Constitutional Republic. We are one of those tin pot dictatorships that have the laws written in pencil.

I'm a realist. We have 2 million people in prison and another 7 million on parole or probation... All of whom did less serious shit than Flynn did.

The only reason why this is an issue is because Trump has decided to tank the case so he doesn't break bad on him.

 

[SavannahMann]

Either the Constitution is the supreme law of the land and applies to everyone or we are not a Constitutional Republic. We are one of those tin pot dictatorships that have the laws written in pencil.

I'm a realist. We have 2 million people in prison and another 7 million on parole or probation... All of whom did less serious shit than Flynn did.

The only reason why this is an issue is because Trump has decided to tank the case so he doesn't break bad on him.

And Obama wanted to tank the case against Cliven Bundy? The only reason we are discussing it is because the routine answer for LEO and Prosecutorial misconduct is unpalatable. Now for the first time ever we are hearing that the misconduct is so routine we should just ignore it.

The problem is not Flynn. It isn’t Bundy. It is not any of the guilty people released because of Brady Violations. It is that the LEOs and Prosecutors still regularly violating Brady.

It is not like these are new rules. These rules have been around for decades. There is not a single Federal Agent or Prosecutor working today who was working before the Brady Decision. Prosecutors today learned about it in law school. There is every probability that a Brady question was on their BAR exam. Every LEO is informed of it during training. So how did a violation of this well known rule happen?

Jesus they covered Disclosure in the movie My Cousin Vinnie. And that movie was more than thirty years ago.

So the routine violation of a rule always results in the suppression of evidence. It means all the evidence about Flynn being guilty is inadmissible. He is getting away with it. Not because of Trump unless you think he told the Agents and Prosecutors to lie and hide evidence that was to the benefit of the Defense. Or if you think he told the Agents to lie on the warrant application.

The only way the Prosecution can move forward is if we decide violations of Brady are so routine that they no longer matter. That means we have a legal system based upon the prosecution being allowed to cheat and lie to get convictions. That was the standard in the Soviet Block East Germany. I joined the Army to keep that from happening here. I am not going to be silent today when the effort to do it is happening here.

Blackwell. It is better for a thousand guilty to go free than one innocent man go to prison.

 

[JoeB131]

And Obama wanted to tank the case against Cliven Bundy? The only reason we are discussing it is because the routine answer for LEO and Prosecutorial misconduct is unpalatable. Now for the first time ever we are hearing that the misconduct is so routine we should just ignore it.

The problem is not Flynn. It isn’t Bundy. It is not any of the guilty people released because of Brady Violations. It is that the LEOs and Prosecutors still regularly violating Brady.

Uh, if Bundy was a black kid pulling the shit he did, he'd have been shot multiple times.

The only way the Prosecution can move forward is if we decide violations of Brady are so routine that they no longer matter. That means we have a legal system based upon the prosecution being allowed to cheat and lie to get convictions. That was the standard in the Soviet Block East Germany. I joined the Army to keep that from happening here. I am not going to be silent today when the effort to do it is happening here.

Except nobody "cheated" to catch Flynn. Flynn was given MULTIPLE chances to come clean about his actions. He didn't.

Blackwell. It is better for a thousand guilty to go free than one innocent man go to prison.

Sounds nice in principle... but the reality is, if you are poor and black, you are really likely to go to jail, even if you are innocent.

Flynn did what he was accused of.
Bundy did what he was accused of.

But... they're white.

 

[SavannahMann]

And Obama wanted to tank the case against Cliven Bundy? The only reason we are discussing it is because the routine answer for LEO and Prosecutorial misconduct is unpalatable. Now for the first time ever we are hearing that the misconduct is so routine we should just ignore it.

The problem is not Flynn. It isn’t Bundy. It is not any of the guilty people released because of Brady Violations. It is that the LEOs and Prosecutors still regularly violating Brady.

Uh, if Bundy was a black kid pulling the shit he did, he'd have been shot multiple times.

The only way the Prosecution can move forward is if we decide violations of Brady are so routine that they no longer matter. That means we have a legal system based upon the prosecution being allowed to cheat and lie to get convictions. That was the standard in the Soviet Block East Germany. I joined the Army to keep that from happening here. I am not going to be silent today when the effort to do it is happening here.

Except nobody "cheated" to catch Flynn. Flynn was given MULTIPLE chances to come clean about his actions. He didn't.

Blackwell. It is better for a thousand guilty to go free than one innocent man go to prison.

Sounds nice in principle... but the reality is, if you are poor and black, you are really likely to go to jail, even if you are innocent.

Flynn did what he was accused of.
Bundy did what he was accused of.

But... they're white.

They had more expensive, and thus better lawyers. But this is one of those things that groups like the Innocence Project uses to get people off of Dearth Row, and out of Prison. Most of those folks are Black.

You do not deny that the information was gained illegally. You do not deny that the warrant was gotten illegally. You don’t argue that this is unheard of. You argue that he’s guilty and nothing else should matter.

That is an argument normally made by the extreme Right Wing. The ones who advocate and support Stop and Frisk. It is one normally made by people you traditionally would categorize as Fascist. Correctly by the way. Because it is the actions of Military type Dictatorial Governments.

Oddly, you don’t demand punitive measures for the Agents, or Prosecutors, who knowingly submitted false and misleading information to the courts.

Everything about this case has been routine. It was routine to lie on the Warrant application. It was routine to hide the information from the defense. It was routine to get a plea deal, and it was routine to back out of the deal to change the plea to Not Guilty. It is routine to discover the shenanigans of the Prosecution and Agents. Providing that you have enough people to comb through the records and get to double checking things.

All of that was routine. The next step was routine too. Either dismissal of the charges, or suppression of the evidence. The only thing the Prosecution can go to the Jury with right now, that is not tainted, or destined to be suppressed is that Flynn is a bad guy. No evidence from the wire taps. Not even his admission as part of the plea deal, since that was gotten by lying to the courts as well.

We should see this in every case that the cops lie. We should see the cops penalized. We should see the fired in disgrace at a minimum. We should see the Prosecutors starting their new careers in Fast Food after being disbarred. We don’t. And if you want to know what the real crime is, that is it. We don’t uphold our ideals, and we don’t stand firm behind the Constitution. We shrug and say oh well, the cops got caught This time.

Flynn is a crook, so was Bundy. What saved them was not the color of their skin, but the quality of their lawyers. We should want that sort of quality defense for every accused. Lord knows I do, it is why I am still a member of the ACLU. Because others got screwed does not mean you participate in the screwing of someone else. That is not Justice. That is exactly what this nation fought against many times.

 

[EvilCat Breath]

Flynn did nothing. The FBI made a thorough investigation and found Flynn entirely innocent and they were closing the case. Peter Strzok asked the FBI to keep it open because he could donp something. That something was a white house meeting with Strzok, Comey, Biden and shitstain obama where the whole case was fabricated,

 

[Toddsterpatriot]

The argument is that the FBI shouldn't have been listening in on Flynn's conversations with Vislak because the warrants were partially based on the Steele Dossier

That's not the argument at all. Not even a little bit.

 

[JoeB131]

You do not deny that the information was gained illegally. You do not deny that the warrant was gotten illegally. You don’t argue that this is unheard of. You argue that he’s guilty and nothing else should matter.

Uh, yeah, when he's potentially in a position that will get young servicemen KILLED, I am totally for taking him out if he's guilty.

We should see this in every case that the cops lie. We should see the cops penalized. We should see the fired in disgrace at a minimum. We should see the Prosecutors starting their new careers in Fast Food after being disbarred. We don’t. And if you want to know what the real crime is, that is it. We don’t uphold our ideals, and we don’t stand firm behind the Constitution. We shrug and say oh well, the cops got caught This time.

Let's get real. Any other country would have taken Flynn out behind a back wall and shot him for his treachery.

The crime here is that you have a guy who is obviously guilty, but the government is protecting bigger fish.

 

[Toddsterpatriot]

Okay, without getting into the whole issue, the point was, HE DID EXACTLY WHAT HE WAS ACCUSED OF.

Based on the 302?

 

[SavannahMann]

You do not deny that the information was gained illegally. You do not deny that the warrant was gotten illegally. You don’t argue that this is unheard of. You argue that he’s guilty and nothing else should matter.

Uh, yeah, when he's potentially in a position that will get young servicemen KILLED, I am totally for taking him out if he's guilty.

We should see this in every case that the cops lie. We should see the cops penalized. We should see the fired in disgrace at a minimum. We should see the Prosecutors starting their new careers in Fast Food after being disbarred. We don’t. And if you want to know what the real crime is, that is it. We don’t uphold our ideals, and we don’t stand firm behind the Constitution. We shrug and say oh well, the cops got caught This time.

Let's get real. Any other country would have taken Flynn out behind a back wall and shot him for his treachery.

The crime here is that you have a guy who is obviously guilty, but the government is protecting bigger fish.

Fine. I give up. No fourth fifth or sixth amendment. Fuck the bastards. If they have nothing to fear they should have nothing to hide right?

I was right. It is the death of the republic. Nobody gives a damn about the Constitution.

 

[JoeB131]

Fine. I give up. No fourth fifth or sixth amendment. Fuck the bastards. If they have nothing to fear they should have nothing to hide right?

I was right. It is the death of the republic. Nobody gives a damn about the Constitution.

Obviously, you Trump supporters don't. But Flynn got better representation than most people get in this country.

 

[SavannahMann]

Fine. I give up. No fourth fifth or sixth amendment. Fuck the bastards. If they have nothing to fear they should have nothing to hide right?

I was right. It is the death of the republic. Nobody gives a damn about the Constitution.

Obviously, you Trump supporters don't. But Flynn got better representation than most people get in this country.

A lot of ACLU members are supporting Trump. Or something. If you want to bring politics into it. I voted for Trump. Because IMO he was the least worst option. Both candidates stunk to high heaven. I had voted Obama, twice. Kerry and Gore before that. Clinton twice. And Democrats all the way back. Today I see the same problem. Two candidates that stink to high heaven. I honestly do not know if I will vote. Or who it would be for. Or against. Right now I honestly believe it is not with the time to cast a ballot. It does not matter who we get. Joe will say anything and mean none of it. Trump has tons of issues too.

Neither would be my first choice. And the VP for Biden is liable to be extremely important while he is trying to find some black woman with name recognition. I don’t think he can finish a single term and the VP will be next up. One of those in the running is a former nurse practitioner. She has been in Congress for six whole years. So obviously she is ready to step up at a moments notice.

I do not like either. And neither party would be worth the urine needed to piss out the flames if they were on fire. My reason is simple. The constitution doesn’t mean shit to either.

 

[SavannahMann]

Fine. I give up. No fourth fifth or sixth amendment. Fuck the bastards. If they have nothing to fear they should have nothing to hide right?

I was right. It is the death of the republic. Nobody gives a damn about the Constitution.

Obviously, you Trump supporters don't. But Flynn got better representation than most people get in this country.

In fact, help me out. Why should I vote Biden over Trump? Or why should I vote at all? Georgia looks to be close this year. So why should I vote Democratic? Not because they love the Constitution. Obviously they do not if they are willing to trample the Fourth, Fifth, and Sixth Amendment to get a guy. Is it because they are totally going to give me a better nation afterwards? Obviously they won’t, because the nation will be founded in whatever they want today, not the rules and laws we have held sacred for more than two centuries.

Why should I vote Trump? He’s an unequaled ass who can’t stop sending out tweets like a petulant child. But he got our troops out of Syria, where we had no business beIng. So neutral so far. He ended the Justice Department investigations and compliance actions against Police Departments who were violating the Constitution. So a big negative there. But we already know the Democrats don’t like the Constitution when it applies to anyone they hate, so not a plus for the Dems either.

This is what happens when you hate your opponents. Nothing is too much to get them. Nothing is beyond the line, or too extreme. Laws don’t matter, no matter how high those laws may be. Even the supreme law of the land is irrelevant to make someone pay.

It is why I have no respect for Republicans, or Democrats. I have none left for either party. As far as I am concerned, we would be better off as a colony under the British, at least our rights would be established in every single case, not just the ones where we were on the political right side of the issue.

The reality is we have become a nation of two competing cults, and neither side will rest until the other one is destroyed to the last. If you want to know why, just read your opinions on Flynn. The Constitution does not matter. It is not a suicide pact. We aren’t talking about national suicide. We are talking about established laws and standards for decades. But it is suicide. Because without those established laws, and standards, we are a cult which deserves whatever death awaits us.

 

[JoeB131]

A lot of ACLU members are supporting Trump. Or something. If you want to bring politics into it. I voted for Trump. Because IMO he was the least worst option.

And that tells me that I can't trust your judgement. I'm not overly fond of Mrs. Clinton, but frankly, I have no doubt she would have avoided the daily shennanigans Trump engages in.

I had voted Obama, twice. Kerry and Gore before that. Clinton twice. And Democrats all the way back. Today I see the same problem. Two candidates that stink to high heaven. I honestly do not know if I will vote. Or who it would be for. Or against. Right now I honestly believe it is not with the time to cast a ballot. It does not matter who we get. Joe will say anything and mean none of it. Trump has tons of issues too.

You see, I'm kind of the opposite. I voted for Republicans from Reagan to McCain, but then the crazies took over the GOP. The types who think the Rapture is actually going to be a thing that happens, and they look forward to it.

To me, it's a simple choice. Trump has proven himself to be incompetent and corrupt. As much as he whines about the "Deep State", the professionals in government you whine about have kept this from being a LOT worse than it could have been. But now we are in crises that he has no idea how to deal with. Biden isn't an administrative genius nor does he need to be. He just has to have the good sense to let the professionals do their jobs.

 

[Toddsterpatriot]

So obviously she is ready to step up at a moments notice.

Obviously? Why?

 

[JoeB131]

In fact, help me out. Why should I vote Biden over Trump? Or why should I vote at all? Georgia looks to be close this year. So why should I vote Democratic? Not because they love the Constitution. Obviously they do not if they are willing to trample the Fourth, Fifth, and Sixth Amendment to get a guy. Is it because they are totally going to give me a better nation afterwards? Obviously they won’t, because the nation will be founded in whatever they want today, not the rules and laws we have held sacred for more than two centuries.

If you are looking at it like a Constitutional Fetishist, and you think the Founding Slave Rapists shit marble, probably then there is nothing I can do.

I'm more pragmatic. The best constitution in the world does you no good if you have an awful human being in charge. The worst constitution is fine if you have good people in charge. We aren't a country of laws, we are a country of people.

I should also point out it wasn't the DEMOCRATS who went out to get Flynn, it was Mueller and his team, and Mueller was a Republican.

The problem with the GOP is that it has become the Cult of Trump. But you worry more about General Flynn not having all the paperwork filled out when he was caught red handed selling us out to Russia than some poor Hispanic Kid in a cage in the Southwest. I'm sure he'd like to have some Constitutional rights, too.

This is what happens when you hate your opponents. Nothing is too much to get them. Nothing is beyond the line, or too extreme. Laws don’t matter, no matter how high those laws may be. Even the supreme law of the land is irrelevant to make someone pay.

Here's the thing. Trump is corrupt. He's an awful human being by any objective standard. So, yeah, getting him is a primary thing. The constitution actually has several mechanisms for avoiding or getting rid of bad presidents. We didn't avail ourselves of any of them.

Today, we found out that Trump's master Putin was paying bounties to kill US Servicemen in Afghanistan. Trump did nothing about it. Big Surprise there.

 

[Toddsterpatriot]

In fact, help me out. Why should I vote Biden over Trump? Or why should I vote at all? Georgia looks to be close this year. So why should I vote Democratic? Not because they love the Constitution. Obviously they do not if they are willing to trample the Fourth, Fifth, and Sixth Amendment to get a guy. Is it because they are totally going to give me a better nation afterwards? Obviously they won’t, because the nation will be founded in whatever they want today, not the rules and laws we have held sacred for more than two centuries.

If you are looking at it like a Constitutional Fetishist, and you think the Founding Slave Rapists shit marble, probably then there is nothing I can do.

I'm more pragmatic. The best constitution in the world does you no good if you have an awful human being in charge. The worst constitution is fine if you have good people in charge. We aren't a country of laws, we are a country of people.

I should also point out it wasn't the DEMOCRATS who went out to get Flynn, it was Mueller and his team, and Mueller was a Republican.

The problem with the GOP is that it has become the Cult of Trump. But you worry more about General Flynn not having all the paperwork filled out when he was caught red handed selling us out to Russia than some poor Hispanic Kid in a cage in the Southwest. I'm sure he'd like to have some Constitutional rights, too.

This is what happens when you hate your opponents. Nothing is too much to get them. Nothing is beyond the line, or too extreme. Laws don’t matter, no matter how high those laws may be. Even the supreme law of the land is irrelevant to make someone pay.

Here's the thing. Trump is corrupt. He's an awful human being by any objective standard. So, yeah, getting him is a primary thing. The constitution actually has several mechanisms for avoiding or getting rid of bad presidents. We didn't avail ourselves of any of them.

Today, we found out that Trump's master Putin was paying bounties to kill US Servicemen in Afghanistan. Trump did nothing about it. Big Surprise there.

I should also point out it wasn't the DEMOCRATS who went out to get Flynn, it was Mueller and his team, and Mueller was a Republican.

Mueller was a clueless figurehead.
His entire team was made up of rabid Hillary and Obama supporters.

 

[EvilCat Breath]

You do not deny that the information was gained illegally. You do not deny that the warrant was gotten illegally. You don’t argue that this is unheard of. You argue that he’s guilty and nothing else should matter.

Uh, yeah, when he's potentially in a position that will get young servicemen KILLED, I am totally for taking him out if he's guilty.

We should see this in every case that the cops lie. We should see the cops penalized. We should see the fired in disgrace at a minimum. We should see the Prosecutors starting their new careers in Fast Food after being disbarred. We don’t. And if you want to know what the real crime is, that is it. We don’t uphold our ideals, and we don’t stand firm behind the Constitution. We shrug and say oh well, the cops got caught This time.

Let's get real. Any other country would have taken Flynn out behind a back wall and shot him for his treachery.

The crime here is that you have a guy who is obviously guilty, but the government is protecting bigger fish.

Fine. I give up. No fourth fifth or sixth amendment. Fuck the bastards. If they have nothing to fear they should have nothing to hide right?

I was right. It is the death of the republic. Nobody gives a damn about the Constitution.

Democrats want to burn the Constitution. White men wrote it.