Creation and so forth

[ding]

The CMB is thermal radiation.

When matter comes into contact with anti-matter they mutually annihilate each other, and their masses are instantly turned into radiation according to Einstein’s famous equation, E = mc2, in which E is the energy of the radiation, m is the annihilated mass, and c is the speed of light.

This is where the cosmic background radiation came from; matter / antimatter mutual annhilations.

 

[Wuwei]

Disregarding neutrinos - which do not interact with other matter - and also the host of other particles that appear transiently in the course of high‑energy nuclear interactions, our universe is made of four kinds of so-called elementary particles: neutrons, protons, electrons, and photons, which are particles of radiation. The only important qualification one need make to such a simple statement is that the first three particles exist also as antiparticles, the particles constituting matter, the anti-particles anti-matter. When matter comes into contact with anti-matter they mutually annihilate each other, and their masses are instantly turned into radiation according to Einstein’s famous equation, E = mc2, in which E is the energy of the radiation, m is the annihilated mass, and c is the speed of light.

This is where the cosmic background radiation came from; matter / antimatter mutual annhilations.

George Wald: Life and Mind in the Universe

In 1965, Arno Penzias and Robert Wilson at the Bell Telephone Laboratories in New Jersey discovered the cosmic background radiation - a new microwave radiation that fills the universe, coming equally from all directions, wherever one may be. It is by far the dominant radiation in the universe; billions of years of starlight have added to it only negligibly. It is commonly agreed that this is the residue remaining from that gigantic firestorm of mutual annihilation in the Big Bang.

It turns out that there are about one billion photons of that radiation for every proton in the universe. Hence it is thought that what went into the Big Bang were not exactly equal numbers of particles and anti-particles, but that for every billion anti-particles there were one billion and one particles, so that when all the mutual annihilation had happened, there remained over that one particle per billion, and that now constitutes all the matter in the universe -- all the galaxies, the stars and planets, and of course all life.

George Wald: Life and Mind in the Universe

Yes, I know all about the Standard Model. I know all about the history of the CMB. And I know about the mystery of the matter-antimatter imbalance.

Believe me you are preaching to the choir. But you are very ambiguous in your postings and I don't know what you are thinking or what your point is.

 

[ding]

It is commonly agreed that [cosmic background radiation] is the residue remaining from that gigantic firestorm of mutual annihilation in the Big Bang.

George Wald, Nobel Laureate

George Wald: Life and Mind in the Universe

 

[Wuwei]

Yes, as I said I know all that. I still don't know what your point is.

 

[ding]

Yes, I know all about the Standard Model. I know all about the history of the CMB. And I know about the mystery of the matter-antimatter imbalance.

Believe me you are preaching to the choir. But you are very ambiguous in your postings and I don't know what you are thinking or what your point is.

I'm using direct quotes from George Wald, Nobel Laureate.

My point is that whatever origin theory one comes up with must explain how a massive amount (1 billion times the mass of the universe in matter particles and 1 billion times the mass of the universe in anti-matter particles) came from. There is only one theory that I know of that addresses this; the universe being created from nothing.

 

[ding]

Yes, as I said I know all that. I still don't know what your point is.

I don't believe you did, sorry. Because if you did you would have recognized the importance CMB plays in explaining the origin of the universe. It's not a minor detail. It's center stage.

 

[ding]

The CMB is thermal radiation

This is 100% incorrect. You are describing infrared waves or heat. The CMB are photons.

 

[Wuwei]

Your focus early on was on the nature of the CMB not so much where the energy came from. So my answer was BB radiation.

 

[Wuwei]

This is 100% incorrect. You are describing infrared waves or heat. The CMB are photons.

The COBE satellite found it very accurately had the shape of BB radiation. So what we saw was very hot red shifted to the microwave region.

 

[ding]

The COBE satellite found it very accurately had the shape of BB radiation. So what we saw was very hot red shifted to the microwave region.

What does that have to do with what we are discussing?

Are you arguing that CMB isn't photons? Because it is; E=MC^2

Are you arguing that CMB is thermal radiation? Because it isn't. Thermal radiation is infrared waves or heat. Right?

 

[ding]

Your focus early on was on the nature of the CMB not so much where the energy came from. So my answer was BB radiation.

Which came from what? And how much of what?

 

[Wuwei]

This is 100% incorrect. You are describing infrared waves or heat. The CMB are photons.

Far IR is thermal radiation what we see here. It was very hot where it originated. But highly redshifted here.
It has a wave nature when it goes through space but a particle nature when it was emitted billions of years ago
.

 

[Wuwei]

Which came from what? And how much of what?

I thought we just went through that.

 

[ding]

Far IR is thermal radiation what we see here. It was very hot where it originated. But highly redshifted here.
It has a wave nature when it goes through space but a particle nature when it was emitted billions of years ago
.

Dude, just admit you don't know what you are talking about because arguing that the CMB is thermal radiation is 100% incorrect.

 

[ding]

I thought we just went through that.

I need to hear you say it so that I understand that you understand.

 

[Wuwei]

Dude, just admit you don't know what you are talking about because arguing that the CMB is thermal radiation is 100% incorrect.

I told you this in earlier posts. This is what I'm talking about. Maybe you will believe it from wikipedia:

When the universe was young, before the formation of stars and planets, it was denser, much hotter, and filled with an opaque fog of hydrogen plasma. As the universe expanded the plasma grew cooler and the radiation filling it expanded to longer wavelengths. When the temperature had dropped enough, protons and electrons combined to form neutral hydrogen atoms. Unlike the plasma, these newly conceived atoms could not scatter the thermal radiation by Thomson scattering, and so the universe became transparent.​

Thermal radiation means it comes from anything that's hot. Thermal radiation isn't always all microwave (eg the sun) It comes with a spectrum called black body radiation. The CMB spectrum maximum was way toward the UV and far from microwave. Like every distant galaxy the radiation was red shifted from that extreme UV all the way down to microwaves. It still had the original shape of the CMB but was shifted so the apparent temperature was 2.7K and not the thousands of degrees of the original source billions of years ago.

You are probably confused by the fact that the CMB is said to be 2.7K. It only appears that way here, but we know better.
.

 

[ding]

I told you this in earlier posts. This is what I'm talking about. Maybe you will believe it from wikipedia:

When the universe was young, before the formation of stars and planets, it was denser, much hotter, and filled with an opaque fog of hydrogen plasma. As the universe expanded the plasma grew cooler and the radiation filling it expanded to longer wavelengths. When the temperature had dropped enough, protons and electrons combined to form neutral hydrogen atoms. Unlike the plasma, these newly conceived atoms could not scatter the thermal radiation by Thomson scattering, and so the universe became transparent.​

Thermal radiation means it comes from anything that's hot. Thermal radiation isn't always all microwave (eg the sun) It comes with a spectrum called black body radiation. The CMB spectrum maximum was way toward the UV and far from microwave. Like every distant galaxy the radiation was red shifted from that extreme UV all the way down to microwaves. It still had the original shape of the CMB but was shifted so the apparent temperature was 2.7K and not the thousands of degrees of the original source billions of years ago.

You are probably confused by the fact that the CMB is said to be 2.7K. It only appears that way here, but we know better.
.

This is your source of information? This is why you started talking about plasma and thermal radiation? No where in this description is the explanation of what CMB is and how it was created.

Like I said before, you don't know what you are talking about.

Here's a better source.

The Early Universe

pages.uoregon.edu

You couldn't follow my point (the first three posts of our conversation) - which was clear and concise - because you did not know what CMB was or how it was created. Now you do. So that's good.

 

[Wuwei]

So timid and cowardly. Winner, winner, chicken dinner for me. Loser, loser, now who's dinner for you.

My god. You are really going off the deep end.

 

[Wuwei]

This is your source of information? This is why you started talking about plasma and thermal radiation? No where in this description is the explanation of what CMB is and how it was created.

You emphatically said the CMB was not thermal radiation. Do you disagree with the Wiki citation?
Because if you disagree then all bets are off. But I'm not going to insult you as is your custom.

If you want me to say that the universe came from a sort of vacuum fluctuation with some small asymmetric property of matter/antimatter. Sure that's the best bet, but I neither believe it nor disbelieve it. But when you disagree with some basic physics like the thermal nature of the CMB I pursued that to see if you clearly knew what the physics is.
.

 

[ding]

You emphatically said the CMB was not thermal radiation. Do you disagree with the Wiki citation?
Because if you disagree then all bets are off. But I'm not going to insult you as is your custom.

If you want me to say that the universe came from a sort of vacuum fluctuation with some small asymmetric property of matter/antimatter. Sure that's the best bet, but I neither believe it nor disbelieve it. But when you disagree with some basic physics like the thermal nature of the CMB I pursued that to see if you clearly knew what the physics is.
.

Yes. CMB is not thermal radiation. So says E=MC^2. Thermal radiation is infrared or heat.

From YOUR link: Cosmic background radiation is electromagnetic radiation from the Big Bang. The origin of this radiation depends on the region of the spectrum that is observed. ... This component is redshifted photons that have freely streamed from an epoch when the Universe became transparent for the first time to radiation.



Here are the relevant parts from the link I posted with emphasis added.

• The early universe was radiation dominated
  • density of radiation exceeded density of matter
• After about 50,000 years, the density of matter exceeded the density of radiation for the first time, eventually dominating the universe.
  • In the early universe, matter and anti-matter were being created equally out of the radiation
    • pair production
      • pair production is the production of matter and anti-matter in pairs
      • two photons can produce a pair
      • particle-antiparticle annihilation (the reverse process) is also possible
  • Anti-Matter
    • What is anti-matter (anti-particles)?
      • A type of matter which has the same mass as normal matter, but opposite charge

    • particle​	charge of particle​	anti-particle​	charge of anti-particle​
      proton​	positive​	anti-proton​	negative​
      neutron​	neutral​	anti-neutron​	neutral​
      electron​	negative​	anti-electron or positron​	positive​

  • Matter and anti-matter can be created in pairs from energy (or electromagnetic radiation)
    • E = m c2
      • E = energy
        m = mass
        c2 = speed of light squared (here just a constant of proportionality)
    • For example
      • energy -------->proton + anti-proton
        energy --------> electron + positron
    • OR matter can annihilate in pairs
      • proton + anti-proton ----------> energy
        electron + positron (anti-electron) ---------> energy
• Very early universe (when temperature was 10 billion K)
  • Due to high temperature photons had enough energy to create electron-positron pairs
  • Great numbers of electrons and positrons exist in thermal equilibrium with the radiation
• As universe expanded, it cooled
  • Universe when temperature was 1 billion K
  • Photons now have too little energy to create pairs, so electrons and positrons are no longer in thermal equilibrium

Evolution of Matter

• Radiation Era
  • (The radiation era lasted for about 50,000 years)
  • Planck Epoch
    • First 10-43 seconds after the Big Bang
    • No current theory of physics (quantum gravity) exists
  • GUT (Grand Unified Theory) Epoch
    • After 10-43 seconds, temperature fell to 1032 K
  • Quark Epoch
    • Creation of protons and neutrons continued for about 10-4 seconds
    • Temperature drops below 1013 K, and protons and neutrons are no longer produced in pairs
  • Lepton Epoch
    • Ends when the universe is about 100 seconds old
    • During this epoch, the leptons (electrons, neutrinos, and other light particles) are still produced in pairs, because they are light
    • Ends when temperature drops below 1 billion K
  • Nuclear Epoch (first few minutes)
    • Protons and neutrons fuse into nuclei
    • By the time the universe is about 15 minutes old, much of the helium had been formed
  • Crossover from radiation to matter dominance begins at 50,000 years at a temperature of 16,000 K
  
  
  
• Matter Era
  • Atomic Epoch
    • Begins about 50,000 years after the Big Bang
    • Atoms form and remain intact (electrons attached to nuclei)
      • Electromagnetic radiation decouples
      • Cosmic Microwave Background appears
    • Ends 200,000,000 years after Big Bang
  • Galactic Epoch
    • Large scale structure and bulk of most galaxies form
    • Lasts from 200,000,000 years to 3,000,000,000 after Big Bang
  • Stellar Epoch
    • Stars continue to form up to today
    • Extends into the Dark Energy Era