Corporate Surveillance Of People's Private Lives

[no1tovote4]

this is broken.

You only feel it is broken because you feel unprotected as a "long-haired professional". However, if enough people were effected by the rule that they no longer could employ qualified personnel or their employees got upset and unionized they would change the rule either voluntarily or because of the strike. For you there is no middle ground, only the Government can "fix" things and that is simply wrong and it isn't even the best way to make them change things. Boycotts, Unions, Etc. can hold employers and companies responsible for the choices they make without involving the government "Big Brother" effect to take charge.

 

[SmarterThanYou]

Smarter,

You FEEL that a private business owner should not be allowed to fire or not hire someone they believe will be bad for their business due to non-legally protected habits.

You FEEL that a private business should HAVE to hire you if you are qualified, despite the fact that they know (or think they know) that your long hair puts off their customers.

You want to restrict their legal rights to run their private business in order to protect your right to maintain your lengthy locks. Therefore, you support restricting the legal rights of one citizen in order to maintain the comfort of another.

I'll restate. I disagree.

job performance should not be based on one's looks. THATS what i'm saying. Do you disagree with that?

 

[SmarterThanYou]

You only feel it is broken because you feel unprotected as a "long-haired professional". However, if enough people were effected by the rule that they no longer could employ qualified personnel or their employees got upset and unionized they would change the rule either voluntarily or because of the strike. For you there is no middle ground, only the Government can "fix" things and that is simply wrong and it isn't even the best way to make them change things. Boycotts, Unions, Etc. can hold employers and companies responsible for the choices they make without involving the government "Big Brother" effect to take charge.

I feel unprotected? no, I AM unprotected. If 'enough' people are affected.once again, its 'he who has the gold, makes the rules'. It's wrong.

 

[no1tovote4]

you were in the military, what did they say was their reason for cutting your hair? The rest of your argument simply proves my point about 'he who has the gold makes the rules'. It's wrong.

No, it doesn't. It makes the point that not enough employees feel put upon by the rule to effect change. The company therefore can still get enough employees to make their product and enough people to buy them to make the profit they need to stay in business. If they decided to cut the pay of every employee by half, they are within their legal right to do it but they would fast lose all their employees, they would effect the change necessary to stay in business and reverse such a decision.

If you owned a company you could set a rule that only "long-hairs" could work for you. There is no law against making such a rule. You would likely not be able to find as many employees as you wanted to make your business run, but there is no reason for the government to step in and change your rule. You will either go out of business or survive on how you run your company and what product you put out.

It is self-correcting. Those who have the gold make the rules isn't true, it is how much we can sell with the rules we apply that actually sets the rules, truly it is the customer that sets the rules.

If their rule changes the survivability of the company their shareholders or owners will effect the necessary changes or the company will simply no longer exist. As I said before there are other avenues to take, employees hold at least half of the cards in those decisions if they choose to take up the cause they will win, no company can survive without the voluntary participation of their employees.

 

[no1tovote4]

I feel unprotected? no, I AM unprotected. If 'enough' people are affected.once again, its 'he who has the gold, makes the rules'. It's wrong.

No you only feel unprotected. All it would take is a simple hair cut to get your job? You want to feel you have the higher moral ground but do not. How employees appear is important to companies, you do not wish to comply. This would be like a biker upset he cannot wear his torn t-shirt to work but must wear casual business attire. You are unconvincing with the whole "I am so put upon" act, especially when arguing with somebody that also didn't want to cut his hair but realized that sometimes adults have to do some things they don't want to do.

 

[no1tovote4]

job performance should not be based on one's looks. THATS what i'm saying. Do you disagree with that?

It depends on what you mean by how one looks and what type of position you were going for. Many companies require business attire, should they be allowed to? They do this because of studies that say that if people, even those not in direct contact with the public, dress and look professional they act more professional towards each other and in work ethic. This effects the Bottom-Line. They are perfectly within their rights to make changes that effect the survivability of the company.

 

[Gem]

Smarter Wrote:

job performance should not be based on one's looks. THATS what i'm saying. Do you disagree with that?

Not one person here has said that job performance should be based upon looks.

What people ARE saying...is that if a private business owner believes that your having long hair detracts from their business...they have the right to not hire you. Or, fire you, if you refuse to cut your hair after they have requested that you do so.

No one has stated that they feel someone doing such a thing is right, makes sense, is logical, fair, just, etc. What they have said over and over, is that the private business owner has the protected RIGHT to do so...and that we should be as vigilant in protecting their rights...as we are about protecting your rights not to be discriminated against for the reasons that we have set forth as legally protected.

Now, I think that a private business owner who fired a good, hardworking employee simply because they had long, well-kept hair, would be asinine. However, if I had poured my heart, soul, money, time, and effort into opening and running my own business...and my customers were put off by the personal habits of one of my employees, causing my business to suffer...and, after addressing it with that employee and discovering that they were unwilling to change to better serve my customers...I would most certainly fire that employee, and would feel bad about letting them go, but good about doing what was best for my business.

 

[SmarterThanYou]

No you only feel unprotected. All it would take is a simple hair cut to get your job? You want to feel you have the higher moral ground but do not. How employees appear is important to companies, you do not wish to comply. This would be like a biker upset he cannot wear his torn t-shirt to work but must wear casual business attire. You are unconvincing with the whole "I am so put upon" act, especially when arguing with somebody that also didn't want to cut his hair but realized that sometimes adults have to do some things they don't want to do.

comparing clothes and hair is apples and oranges.

You're argument is also condescending because now you're implying that i'm not an adult because i have long hair....because I won't conform. Again, all you and everybody else are doing is furthering an idiotic stereotype that all professional business people wear ties and coats and have short groomed hair.
Nothing could be further from the truth and anyone with common sense would realize this.

 

[no1tovote4]

comparing clothes and hair is apples and oranges.

You're argument is also condescending because now you're implying that i'm not an adult because i have long hair....because I won't conform. Again, all you and everybody else are doing is furthering an idiotic stereotype that all professional business people wear ties and coats and have short groomed hair.
Nothing could be further from the truth and anyone with common sense would realize this.

People with common sense would also realize that most businessmen have short hair and wear either casual or full business attire, and that it is easier to comply with those preconceived notions than to attempt to change society to meet their needs. You are attempting to equate length of hair with religion or race but it isn't the same, it is something easily changed and a rule that many reasonable companies make and reasonable people follow. Your unreasoned insistence that the rest of society meet your needs on something so unimportant as your hair length shows a self-centered attitude that I would definitely call childish. If your hair is so important to you then either continue to look for a company that doesn't have such a rule or find a different line in which to work.

I notice that you didn't even talk about the study that I brought up that showed that those that dress and groom themselves as businessmen/women are shown to treat others in a more professional manner. This is the reason many companies make rules for even those that do not meet with customers directly to wear business attire and to groom themselves in a certain way. It effects the bottom line and therefore is well within their right to make such a choice. It isn't arbitrary or made to make your life heck, it is made to make the workplace more professional and to effect the bottom line positively.

 

[SmarterThanYou]

Damn still a long hair hippy freak eh? Get a hair cut and a real job!

I know. my $36 an hour isn't cutting it anymore

 

[no1tovote4]

I know. my $36 an hour isn't cutting it anymore

Clearly you are sooooo put upon. It appears your "minority" status as a "long-haired professional" didn't effect you that negatively. You must have found a company that didn't put so much stress on that part of your appearance.

 

[SmarterThanYou]

People with common sense would also realize that most businessmen have short hair and wear either casual or full business attire, and that it is easier to comply with those preconceived notions than to attempt to change society to meet their needs.

hmmm, i never said that I didn't realize what you're stating is true. I'm simply questioning the wisdom of continuing pre-conceived notions of the look of a business professional when the mind is what drives the professional. silly me, i guess.

You are attempting to equate length of hair with religion or race but it isn't the same, it is something easily changed and a rule that many reasonable companies make and reasonable people follow. Your unreasoned insistence that the rest of society meet your needs on something so unimportant as your hair length shows a self-centered attitude that I would definitely call childish. If your hair is so important to you then either continue to look for a company that doesn't have such a rule or find a different line in which to work.

I controlled up to 40 jets in my airspace at one time. I did that with my mind, not my short hair. I had no idea that it would be self centered to try to wake up the business world and see that its the mind that makes a professional, not the clothes or hair.

I notice that you didn't even talk about the study that I brought up that showed that those that dress and groom themselves as businessmen/women are shown to treat others in a more professional manner.

I saw no reason to talk about something that I prove is bunk every day of my life. I work in a professional IT job wearing business casual attire and long hair. These people have seen and experienced first hand, by me, that its not the image that works, but the knowledge, experience, and attitude.

This is the reason many companies make rules for even those that do not meet with customers directly to wear business attire and to groom themselves in a certain way. It effects the bottom line and therefore is well within their right to make such a choice. It isn't arbitrary or made to make your life heck, it is made to make the workplace more professional and to effect the bottom line positively.

read above.

 

[SmarterThanYou]

Clearly you are sooooo put upon. It appears your "minority" status as a "long-haired professional" didn't effect you that negatively. You must have found a company that didn't put so much stress on that part of your appearance.

It wasn't easy to do. It took knowing someone on the inside to get that opportunity. Otherwise, I might never have had it. Thats my point though. I could understand if the greasy haired, torn t-shirt wearing, unshaved individual didn't even get interviewed but not a clean shaven, neatly dressed and groomed male or female. I just think more people should be a little less closed minded. Theres alot of talent and skill out there in people that don't meet the status quo of what a 'professional' looks like.

 

[Itsthetruth]

Easy now, I was a long hair once too!

A lot of people did until they went bald!

 

[JOKER96BRAVO]

damn your old enough to be bald? I kind of assumed it was the other way around and your sac was still bald!

It has to drop first.....

 

[no1tovote4]

It wasn't easy to do. It took knowing someone on the inside to get that opportunity. Otherwise, I might never have had it. Thats my point though. I could understand if the greasy haired, torn t-shirt wearing, unshaved individual didn't even get interviewed but not a clean shaven, neatly dressed and groomed male or female. I just think more people should be a little less closed minded. Theres alot of talent and skill out there in people that don't meet the status quo of what a 'professional' looks like.

I agree that people should change their preconceived notions and have more open minds, I disagree that the Government should get involved or that the company isn't within their rights to set rules you may think are arbitrary.

Just saying that you prove it bunk doesn't mean that it is bunk. The study was conducted with the same group of people, when they dressed and groomed themselves casually they acted more casually with their coworkers and customers, when they dressed in business attire whether it was casual business attire or full business attire they treated their coworkers and customers with more professionalism. This protects many companies from harrassment lawsuits and keeps in the mind of their employees that they are to act professionally at all times.

What you may prove to be is the exception that proves the rule, not the standard by which we should measure all future employees and base laws on.

 

[no1tovote4]

A lot of people did until they went bald!

I just went grey early. Long hair looks cool with grey mixed in. I was depressed when I cut my hair.

It wasn't for work.

 

[JOKER96BRAVO]

I just went grey early. Long hair looks cool with grey mixed in. I was depressed when I cut my hair.

It wasn't for work.

I'm growing mine back out...

 

[no1tovote4]

I'm growing mine back out...

I've been thinking of running for County Commissioner in my county. It would not be the best political decision to grow it out.

 

[JOKER96BRAVO]

I've been thinking of running for County Commissioner in my county. It would not be the best political decision to grow it out.

Maybe if you lived in Manitou or Boulder...