Conservatives may want to read this piece about socialism

[DOTR]

Thoughts? Or is this just more "fake news"?
.

Fake news. And misdirection. Cortez lived a privileged life...like most socialists. You dont look for socialist hotbeds among the middle or working class. You find it in Ivy League faculty lounges, in corporate boardrooms and supported by Silicon Valley billionaires. It is always the de rigeur favorite at Hollywood celebrity parties and the safe stance for millionaire senators and government civil servants from old money.

But ask yourself this...why must socialism *always* be paired with an anti-gun stance? A pro abortion stance? An anti-christian stance?

 

[DOTR]

The Meltdown was in many ways the result of government refusing to regulate the very "securities" and derivatives that damn near brought our economy down.
.

Here is where we may part... refusing to regulate is actually incorrect. It was by design. Indeed it was a result of REGULATIONS that were specifically made to route around regulations, and to even remove some market vehicles out of the SEC's jurisdiction.
Larry Summers was one of the top architects of the derivative market (of which he himself made $millions) and BTW - was a two time top advisor to Obama and Obama wanted to make him Fed Chief...so it isn't just Republicans that reward corruption.

As well as. again, it is important to keep driving in the fact that this is NOT capitalism. It is Corporatism. This is critical for people to understand. Corporatism fundamentally changed our country. We are no longer a Democratic Republic. We are a Plutocratic Corporatocracy.

Whatever you may think we are, it is a result of capitalism.

Not it isn't.
It is the result of corruption.
Every single economic method and societal organization is susceptible to corruption.
Corporatism is NOT capitalism.

Capitalism, first and foremost, is a method of producing commodities based on private property. It is driven by self interest and maximizing profits is its goal.

What we have is a natural outcome. Where is the corruption?

And what society has ever existed that wasn't based on greed?
You think the USSR wasn't about greed? You think China isn't about greed?
What nation ever existed that wasn't based on greed?
Greed is not necessarily a bad thing. In fact, greed pretty much is the basis of every improvement in the history of mankind. But, it is susceptible to corruption. Like everything else.
In the words of the late great Milton Friedman:

Marxism is a religion. And it believes it has power over nature (never mind "Nature's God"). The Marxist mind creates new, non gendered, standard colored, non greedy creatures to build utopia.
Free people, on the other hand, do the best with what they have and build institutions based on human nature rather than human wishes.

Remember the Communist "Homo Sovieticus"?

New Soviet man - Wikipedia

 

[Tehon]

The Meltdown was in many ways the result of government refusing to regulate the very "securities" and derivatives that damn near brought our economy down.
.

Here is where we may part... refusing to regulate is actually incorrect. It was by design. Indeed it was a result of REGULATIONS that were specifically made to route around regulations, and to even remove some market vehicles out of the SEC's jurisdiction.
Larry Summers was one of the top architects of the derivative market (of which he himself made $millions) and BTW - was a two time top advisor to Obama and Obama wanted to make him Fed Chief...so it isn't just Republicans that reward corruption.

As well as. again, it is important to keep driving in the fact that this is NOT capitalism. It is Corporatism. This is critical for people to understand. Corporatism fundamentally changed our country. We are no longer a Democratic Republic. We are a Plutocratic Corporatocracy.

Whatever you may think we are, it is a result of capitalism.

Not it isn't.
It is the result of corruption.
Every single economic method and societal organization is susceptible to corruption.
Corporatism is NOT capitalism.

Capitalism, first and foremost, is a method of producing commodities based on private property. It is driven by self interest and maximizing profits is its goal.

What we have is a natural outcome. Where is the corruption?

And what society has ever existed that wasn't based on greed?
You think the USSR wasn't about greed? You think China isn't about greed?
What nation ever existed that wasn't based on greed?
Greed is not necessarily a bad thing. In fact, greed pretty much is the basis of every improvement in the history of mankind. But, it is susceptible to corruption. Like everything else.
In the words of the late great Milton Friedman:

Where is the corruption?

 

[iamwhatiseem]

Here is where we may part... refusing to regulate is actually incorrect. It was by design. Indeed it was a result of REGULATIONS that were specifically made to route around regulations, and to even remove some market vehicles out of the SEC's jurisdiction.
Larry Summers was one of the top architects of the derivative market (of which he himself made $millions) and BTW - was a two time top advisor to Obama and Obama wanted to make him Fed Chief...so it isn't just Republicans that reward corruption.

As well as. again, it is important to keep driving in the fact that this is NOT capitalism. It is Corporatism. This is critical for people to understand. Corporatism fundamentally changed our country. We are no longer a Democratic Republic. We are a Plutocratic Corporatocracy.

Whatever you may think we are, it is a result of capitalism.

Not it isn't.
It is the result of corruption.
Every single economic method and societal organization is susceptible to corruption.
Corporatism is NOT capitalism.

Capitalism, first and foremost, is a method of producing commodities based on private property. It is driven by self interest and maximizing profits is its goal.

What we have is a natural outcome. Where is the corruption?

And what society has ever existed that wasn't based on greed?
You think the USSR wasn't about greed? You think China isn't about greed?
What nation ever existed that wasn't based on greed?
Greed is not necessarily a bad thing. In fact, greed pretty much is the basis of every improvement in the history of mankind. But, it is susceptible to corruption. Like everything else.
In the words of the late great Milton Friedman:

Where is the corruption?

 

[Mike473]

Thoughts? Or is this just more "fake news"?
.

Fake news. And misdirection. Cortez lived a privileged life...like most socialists. You dont look for socialist hotbeds among the middle or working class. You find it in Ivy League faculty lounges, in corporate boardrooms and supported by Silicon Valley billionaires. It is always the de rigeur favorite at Hollywood celebrity parties and the safe stance for millionaire senators and government civil servants from old money.

But ask yourself this...why must socialism *always* be paired with an anti-gun stance? A pro abortion stance? An anti-christian stance?

This has been one of the biggest problems that the liberal cause faces, be it climate change, public schools or just simply arguing about socialism. They don't understand that that when you are asking people to make lifestyle changes, they need to lead by example.

The elites pushing this stuff should put their kids in public schools, drive economic cars, live in regular neighborhoods, fly commercial whenever possible. Show us how it is done. They are the ones arguing for it, is it to much to ask them to "walk the walk".

 

[Mac1958]

Again, you feel someone with a mortgage isn't responsible to pay against the loan.

Again, you're tossing out a dishonest straw man argument and completely ignoring the 12 specific points I made.
.

 

[Mac1958]

I'm getting the funny feeling that there a lot of people who have absolutely no idea whatsoever what happened leading up to the Meltdown, but are just running with the simplest talking points they can conjure.

In an attempt to blur facts Libs love to build extreme complexity into everything...it’s how they keep their head in their anus. No complexity changes who signed the loan docs.

Yes, this was complex. Sorry, but life can be complex. Not everything fits on a bumper sticker.

It's clear that you don't have any idea what those 12 specific examples I provided are about. Okay, no law against that. But willful ignorance and a genetic aversion to complexity doesn't make you right.
.

 

[Mac1958]

what are banks supposed to do when they're more or less forced to give out bad loans they'd never do otherwise?

Well, they don't:

• Drop standards significantly below what is required of them
• Relax standards to the point at which DOGS were buying homes
• Knowingly put people in balloon mortgages they knew those people would lose
• Lobby (successfully) Greenspan, Bush and the government to refuse to regulate the shit securities
• Go after then-CFTC Chairperson Brooksley Born when she BEGGED Greenspan to regulate these shit securities, and their fucked up derivatives cousins, knowing what was coming
  
• Package shit loans into opaque MBS "securities" and sell them off within 12 hours, eliminating their risk
• Threaten to pull business from ratings agencies if these shit securities are not given AAA ratings
• Make the shit securities even shittier by adding fat fees that were absorbed into operating costs
  
• Sell and buy hundreds of billions of dollars of CDSs that had zero (0) dollars in reserve
• Create shit CDOs, which are three times as shitty as MBSs, and misrepresent them
• Bet against the very same shit securities they're selling to "clients"
• Actually create shit securities DESIGNED to fail and buy swaps on them

The Meltdown was about the above, not about legislation.
.

and who told thrm to "drop standards" or else?

Did you miss the "below what was required of them" part?

Or the 11 other specific examples I provided?
.

 

[Mac1958]

The pure volume of clear, easily-accessible information out there on the Meltdown is such that these people must be actively trying to avoid it.

 

[bendog]

The pure volume of clear, easily-accessible information out there on the Meltdown is such that these people must be actively trying to avoid it.

The race card works with his base every time. Of course, Obama is a muslim.

 

[Tehon]

Here is where we may part... refusing to regulate is actually incorrect. It was by design. Indeed it was a result of REGULATIONS that were specifically made to route around regulations, and to even remove some market vehicles out of the SEC's jurisdiction.
Larry Summers was one of the top architects of the derivative market (of which he himself made $millions) and BTW - was a two time top advisor to Obama and Obama wanted to make him Fed Chief...so it isn't just Republicans that reward corruption.

As well as. again, it is important to keep driving in the fact that this is NOT capitalism. It is Corporatism. This is critical for people to understand. Corporatism fundamentally changed our country. We are no longer a Democratic Republic. We are a Plutocratic Corporatocracy.

Whatever you may think we are, it is a result of capitalism.

Not it isn't.
It is the result of corruption.
Every single economic method and societal organization is susceptible to corruption.
Corporatism is NOT capitalism.

Capitalism, first and foremost, is a method of producing commodities based on private property. It is driven by self interest and maximizing profits is its goal.

What we have is a natural outcome. Where is the corruption?

And what society has ever existed that wasn't based on greed?
You think the USSR wasn't about greed? You think China isn't about greed?
What nation ever existed that wasn't based on greed?
Greed is not necessarily a bad thing. In fact, greed pretty much is the basis of every improvement in the history of mankind. But, it is susceptible to corruption. Like everything else.
In the words of the late great Milton Friedman:

Marxism is a religion. And it believes it has power over nature (never mind "Nature's God"). The Marxist mind creates new, non gendered, standard colored, non greedy creatures to build utopia.
Free people, on the other hand, do the best with what they have and build institutions based on human nature rather than human wishes.

Remember the Communist "Homo Sovieticus"?

New Soviet man - Wikipedia

Marxists understand that private property and the social relationship of commodities is the catalyst for the greed you associate with human nature.

Under private property ... Each tries to establish over the other an alien power, so as thereby to find satisfaction of his own selfish need. The increase in the quantity of objects is therefore accompanied by an extension of the realm of the alien powers to which man is subjected, and every new product represents a new potentiality of mutual swindling and mutual plundering.
Human Requirements and Division of Labour, Marx, 1844

 

[Norman]

I'm hoping we can stay on point here and not degenerate into yet another shallow, platitude-filled discussion on the evils of socialism.

Full disclosure up front: Writer Michael Tomasky is a hardcore left wing partisan ideologue. But in this piece, he actually offers some serious, reasonable, salient advice about the rise in popularity of socialism in this country:

Opinion | What Are Capitalists Thinking?

Examples:

You want fewer socialists? Easy. Stop creating them. Ask yourself: If you’re 28 like Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez, the New York congressional candidate who describes herself as a democratic socialist, what have you seen during your sentient life?

You witnessed the financial meltdown of 2008, caused by big banks betting against themselves. Capitalists might want to consider how all that looked to a young person who came from a working-class family and who probably knows someone who lost a job or even his house, while some of the bankers who helped create the mess walked away with golden parachutes, like that of Countrywide Financial’s Angelo Mozilo, which The Times valued at $88 million.

So, back now to our 28-year-old. She was born in 1990. She will probably remember, in the late ’90s, her parents feeling pretty good about things — median household income did go up under Bill Clinton more than they had under any president in a long time, even more than under Ronald Reagan. But ever since, the median income picture has been much spottier, hardly increasing at all in inflation-adjusted dollars over 18 long years. And those incomes at the top have shot to the heavens.

So if you were a person of modest or even middle-class means, how would you feel about capitalism? The kind of capitalism this country has been practicing for all these years has failed most people.

Thoughts? Or is this just more "fake news"?
.

I agree, we need to stop creating them.

And the fastest way to do so?

Close down the border.

 

[iceberg]

what are banks supposed to do when they're more or less forced to give out bad loans they'd never do otherwise?

Well, they don't:

• Drop standards significantly below what is required of them
• Relax standards to the point at which DOGS were buying homes
• Knowingly put people in balloon mortgages they knew those people would lose
• Lobby (successfully) Greenspan, Bush and the government to refuse to regulate the shit securities
• Go after then-CFTC Chairperson Brooksley Born when she BEGGED Greenspan to regulate these shit securities, and their fucked up derivatives cousins, knowing what was coming
  
• Package shit loans into opaque MBS "securities" and sell them off within 12 hours, eliminating their risk
• Threaten to pull business from ratings agencies if these shit securities are not given AAA ratings
• Make the shit securities even shittier by adding fat fees that were absorbed into operating costs
  
• Sell and buy hundreds of billions of dollars of CDSs that had zero (0) dollars in reserve
• Create shit CDOs, which are three times as shitty as MBSs, and misrepresent them
• Bet against the very same shit securities they're selling to "clients"
• Actually create shit securities DESIGNED to fail and buy swaps on them

The Meltdown was about the above, not about legislation.
.

and who told thrm to "drop standards" or else?

Did you miss the "below what was required of them" part?

Or the 11 other specific examples I provided?
.

it's hard enough to finish one point in here, much less 12. but if this is the tone of the thread now i'll find something else to do.

 

[Mac1958]

what are banks supposed to do when they're more or less forced to give out bad loans they'd never do otherwise?

Well, they don't:

• Drop standards significantly below what is required of them
• Relax standards to the point at which DOGS were buying homes
• Knowingly put people in balloon mortgages they knew those people would lose
• Lobby (successfully) Greenspan, Bush and the government to refuse to regulate the shit securities
• Go after then-CFTC Chairperson Brooksley Born when she BEGGED Greenspan to regulate these shit securities, and their fucked up derivatives cousins, knowing what was coming
  
• Package shit loans into opaque MBS "securities" and sell them off within 12 hours, eliminating their risk
• Threaten to pull business from ratings agencies if these shit securities are not given AAA ratings
• Make the shit securities even shittier by adding fat fees that were absorbed into operating costs
  
• Sell and buy hundreds of billions of dollars of CDSs that had zero (0) dollars in reserve
• Create shit CDOs, which are three times as shitty as MBSs, and misrepresent them
• Bet against the very same shit securities they're selling to "clients"
• Actually create shit securities DESIGNED to fail and buy swaps on them

The Meltdown was about the above, not about legislation.
.

and who told thrm to "drop standards" or else?

Did you miss the "below what was required of them" part?

Or the 11 other specific examples I provided?
.

it's hard enough to finish one point in here, much less 12. but if this is the tone of the thread now i'll find something else to do.

Just pointing out what actually happened.

It was complicated, a lot of elements to it, but it's all true and documented.
.

 

[iamwhatiseem]

what are banks supposed to do when they're more or less forced to give out bad loans they'd never do otherwise?

Well, they don't:

• Drop standards significantly below what is required of them
• Relax standards to the point at which DOGS were buying homes
• Knowingly put people in balloon mortgages they knew those people would lose
• Lobby (successfully) Greenspan, Bush and the government to refuse to regulate the shit securities
• Go after then-CFTC Chairperson Brooksley Born when she BEGGED Greenspan to regulate these shit securities, and their fucked up derivatives cousins, knowing what was coming
  
• Package shit loans into opaque MBS "securities" and sell them off within 12 hours, eliminating their risk
• Threaten to pull business from ratings agencies if these shit securities are not given AAA ratings
• Make the shit securities even shittier by adding fat fees that were absorbed into operating costs
  
• Sell and buy hundreds of billions of dollars of CDSs that had zero (0) dollars in reserve
• Create shit CDOs, which are three times as shitty as MBSs, and misrepresent them
• Bet against the very same shit securities they're selling to "clients"
• Actually create shit securities DESIGNED to fail and buy swaps on them

The Meltdown was about the above, not about legislation.
.

and who told thrm to "drop standards" or else?

Did you miss the "below what was required of them" part?

Or the 11 other specific examples I provided?
.

it's hard enough to finish one point in here, much less 12. but if this is the tone of the thread now i'll find something else to do.

Just pointing out what actually happened.

It was complicated, a lot of elements to it, but it's all true and documented.
.

Extremely complicated, years in the making, both the legislative and executive branch were all using and taking advantage of the same loopholes and systems that they created. And of course the Fed.
In my opinion... the architects of the entire event was...

First and foremost - Alan Greenspan for creating the "debt as income" mirage economy. He is the main driver early on that repeatedly convinced the markets, central banks and the government in the value of high consumer debt/income ratio.
Larry Summers - The "muscle". Chief component in the executive branches of 3 Presidents to facilitate executive actions to route around congress and to empower the central banks.
Robert Rubin - The early driving force within the Democrat party to push enlarging the mortgage markets to the point of insanity. He was also a crook at both CitiGroup and Goldman Sachs.

These three people were the main culprits in my opinion. Obviously there were many other players, but without any of these three - it is doubtful the financial crises would have ever happened.

 

[Some Guy]

Again, you feel someone with a mortgage isn't responsible to pay against the loan.

Again, you're tossing out a dishonest straw man argument and completely ignoring the 12 specific points I made.
.

Would you say that government shared any blame in that situation, considering that's the prevailing wisdom in conservative-land?

 

[Mac1958]

Well, they don't:

• Drop standards significantly below what is required of them
• Relax standards to the point at which DOGS were buying homes
• Knowingly put people in balloon mortgages they knew those people would lose
• Lobby (successfully) Greenspan, Bush and the government to refuse to regulate the shit securities
• Go after then-CFTC Chairperson Brooksley Born when she BEGGED Greenspan to regulate these shit securities, and their fucked up derivatives cousins, knowing what was coming
  
• Package shit loans into opaque MBS "securities" and sell them off within 12 hours, eliminating their risk
• Threaten to pull business from ratings agencies if these shit securities are not given AAA ratings
• Make the shit securities even shittier by adding fat fees that were absorbed into operating costs
  
• Sell and buy hundreds of billions of dollars of CDSs that had zero (0) dollars in reserve
• Create shit CDOs, which are three times as shitty as MBSs, and misrepresent them
• Bet against the very same shit securities they're selling to "clients"
• Actually create shit securities DESIGNED to fail and buy swaps on them

The Meltdown was about the above, not about legislation.
.

and who told thrm to "drop standards" or else?

Did you miss the "below what was required of them" part?

Or the 11 other specific examples I provided?
.

it's hard enough to finish one point in here, much less 12. but if this is the tone of the thread now i'll find something else to do.

Just pointing out what actually happened.

It was complicated, a lot of elements to it, but it's all true and documented.
.

Extremely complicated, years in the making, both the legislative and executive branch were all using and taking advantage of the same loopholes and systems that they created. And of course the Fed.
In my opinion... the architects of the entire event was...

First and foremost - Alan Greenspan for creating the "debt as income" mirage economy. He is the main driver early on that repeatedly convinced the markets, central banks and the government in the value of high consumer debt/income ratio.
Larry Summers - The "muscle". Chief component in the executive branches of 3 Presidents to facilitate executive actions to route around congress and to empower the central banks.
Robert Rubin - The early driving force within the Democrat party to push enlarging the mortgage markets to the point of insanity. He was also a crook at both CitiGroup and Goldman Sachs.

These three people were the main culprits in my opinion. Obviously there were many other players, but without any of these three - it is doubtful the financial crises would have ever happened.

Well done, those guys are often overlooked in the analysis. They all had their fingers in this, but especially Greenspan, who steadfastly refused to regulate what clearly needed to be regulated.

His analysis as the fires were burning? Oh yeah, sorry, looks like I fucked up, my bad, oops, shit, sorry.
.

 

[iamwhatiseem]

His analysis as the fires were burning? Oh yeah, sorry, looks like I fucked up, my bad, oops, shit, sorry.
.

Holy hell, I remember the interview wherein he said just that....and even had the audacity to chuckle after saying it.
He was 100% wrong on virtually everything he did. And, of course, at the time was lauded as the financial genius of the century.
Which is so goddamn ludicrous. FFS how smart do you have to be to know that you can create a short term gain by injecting massive debt into the system?? Everyone loved him.
But the BIG holy cow....mother of all gall was Obama seeking to make Summers the Fed Chair. It just doesn't get any worse than that.
I point out Obama specifically for the point to ALL Democrats that it is not just Republicans. Absolutely Republican legislators played huge roles - and STILL play roles in the continuing rip off of the average American. But so do Democrats. And here you had Obama, the globalist/elitist that he is - showing just how "in" with the system he was.

 

[Mac1958]

His analysis as the fires were burning? Oh yeah, sorry, looks like I fucked up, my bad, oops, shit, sorry.
.

Holy hell, I remember the interview wherein he said just that....and even had the audacity to chuckle after saying it.
He was 100% wrong on virtually everything he did. And, of course, at the time was lauded as the financial genius of the century.
Which is so goddamn ludicrous. FFS how smart do you have to be to know that you can create a short term gain by injecting massive debt into the system?? Everyone loved him.
But the BIG holy cow....mother of all gall was Obama seeking to make Summers the Fed Chair. It just doesn't get any worse than that.
I point out Obama specifically for the point to ALL Democrats that it is not just Republicans. Absolutely Republican legislators played huge roles - and STILL play roles in the continuing rip off of the average American. But so do Democrats. And here you had Obama, the globalist/elitist that he is - showing just how "in" with the system he was.

Sure, it started with Clinton (when he signed the repeal of Glass Steagall, made Greenspan out to be God, and groveled at the feet of Summers and Rubin), went all the way through Bush, and into Obama.

This was a group effort. It was wide and deep and vast. All the partisan finger-pointing in the world won't change that.
.

 

[iamwhatiseem]

His analysis as the fires were burning? Oh yeah, sorry, looks like I fucked up, my bad, oops, shit, sorry.
.

Holy hell, I remember the interview wherein he said just that....and even had the audacity to chuckle after saying it.
He was 100% wrong on virtually everything he did. And, of course, at the time was lauded as the financial genius of the century.
Which is so goddamn ludicrous. FFS how smart do you have to be to know that you can create a short term gain by injecting massive debt into the system?? Everyone loved him.
But the BIG holy cow....mother of all gall was Obama seeking to make Summers the Fed Chair. It just doesn't get any worse than that.
I point out Obama specifically for the point to ALL Democrats that it is not just Republicans. Absolutely Republican legislators played huge roles - and STILL play roles in the continuing rip off of the average American. But so do Democrats. And here you had Obama, the globalist/elitist that he is - showing just how "in" with the system he was.

Sure, it started with Clinton (when he signed the repeal of Glass Steagall, made Greenspan out to be God, and groveled at the feet of Summers and Rubin), went all the way through Bush, and into Obama.

This was a group effort. It was wide and deep and vast. All the partisan finger-pointing in the world won't change that.
.

Yep, I remember shaking my head and cursing as Bush was trying to convince the American people that privatizing Social Security and letting people move their Social Security funds into 401ks and the like...FURTHER bankrolling the system...and he said this with the knowledge that the mortgage system was grossly over sold. This was clearly Summers talking.
And of course...Geithner was such an improvement.