Conservatives: Do You Give

[Newby]

Legal marriage under our American system has been a defined entity for thousands of years? Really? Fascinating since America as a nation has only been around for less than 250 years. How is that possible?

Please explain that for us.

Did I say anything about 'American'? I don't think so, you might try addressing the post instead of arguing with a strawman.

Yanno Newby, I am not a christian and even I know, polygamy and same sex marriage along with every other adult love pair bond possible between or among human adults is all described in the Bible in very loving terms.

Are you a "cafeteria christian", who just follows the Bible when it suits her?

In loving terms?? I guess I missed that part then.

 

[Madeline]

Did I say anything about 'American'? I don't think so, you might try addressing the post instead of arguing with a strawman.

Hello, Newby!!! The whole topic under discussion is American legal marriage. Whether the American legal government should recognize American legal marriages or not.

So, you admit to going on and on about something that has NOTHING to do with the topic...alrightie then.

We're talking about the institution of marriage, which was a concept long before America was. Get with it.

Let me completely clear. The caselaw and legal principles I spoke of as dating back to the Magna Carta are predominately about the property and inheritance rights of spouses and children in families...not about the outer limits of who may legally form a marriage. It has only been 43 years since Loving v. Virginia declared miscegenation laws are unconstitutional and yet STILL just last year, a JOP in Louisiana refused to marry an interracial couple (hetero) because "he doesn't believe in it".

Interracial Couple Denied Marriage License By Louisiana Justice Of The Peace

You'd be very hard pressed (I hope) to find an American in his 20's or 30's who doesn't see the GLARING civil rights violation this JOP committed, Newby -- but if you look around among Baby Boomers or their elders, it would be possible, yes. I can CLEARLY remember the physical risks interracial couples (hetero) faced in my HS and even college years. Random assaults on the street were not uncommon.....some/many strangers were extremely angry at the very sight of them and would attack.

My point is, the clear light of day has us all 100% certain that interracial marriage is an American civil right....and only 40 years ago, a majority of US adults were unsure or opposed. Gay marriage has far more popular support now than interracial marriage had then and it is a legal inevitabilty in this country. And for the same reason -- it is an adult's personal, private civil right to marry the adult they choose, regardless of gender.

Your kids and grandkids are gonna wonder WTF all the fuss was over, just as you may wonder HTF anyone in their right mind could ever have opposed interracial marriage. That's the beauty of this country....we move inevitablily towards freedom as our one true road.

 

[Newby]

Hello, Newby!!! The whole topic under discussion is American legal marriage. Whether the American legal government should recognize American legal marriages or not.

So, you admit to going on and on about something that has NOTHING to do with the topic...alrightie then.

We're talking about the institution of marriage, which was a concept long before America was. Get with it.

Let me completely clear. The caselaw and legal principles I spoke of as dating back to the Magna Carta are predominately about the property and inheritance rights of spouses and children in families...not about the outer limits of who may legally form a marriage. It has only been 43 years since Loving v. Virginia declared miscegenation laws are unconstitutional and yet STILL just last year, a JOP in Louisiana refused to marry an interracial couple (hetero) because "he doesn't believe in it".

Interracial Couple Denied Marriage License By Louisiana Justice Of The Peace

You'd be very hard pressed (I hope) to find an American in his 20's or 30's who doesn't see the GLARING civil rights violation this JOP committed, Newby -- but if you look around among Baby Boomers or their elders, it would be possible, yes. I can CLEARLY remember the physical risks interracial couples (hetero) faced in my HS and even college years. Random assaults on the street were not uncommon.....some/many strangers were extremely angry at the very sight of them and would attack.

My point is, the clear light of day has us all 100% certain that interracial marriage is an American civil right....and only 40 years ago, a majority of US adults were unsure or opposed. Gay marriage has far more popular support now than interracial marriage had then and it is a legal inevitabilty in this country. And for the same reason -- it is an adult's personal, private civil right to marry the adult they choose, regardless of gender.

Your kids and grandkids are gonna wonder WTF all the fuss was over, just as you may wonder HTF anyone in their right mind could ever have opposed interracial marriage. That's the beauty of this country....we move inevitablily towards freedom as our one true road.

The only difference being that your example does not fit the same criteria that we have now with gays. An interracial couple were still 1 male and 1 female, what is happening now is the effort to change the fundamental meaning of what marriage is and has been for centuries.

 

[rightwinger]

We're talking about the institution of marriage, which was a concept long before America was. Get with it.

Let me completely clear. The caselaw and legal principles I spoke of as dating back to the Magna Carta are predominately about the property and inheritance rights of spouses and children in families...not about the outer limits of who may legally form a marriage. It has only been 43 years since Loving v. Virginia declared miscegenation laws are unconstitutional and yet STILL just last year, a JOP in Louisiana refused to marry an interracial couple (hetero) because "he doesn't believe in it".

Interracial Couple Denied Marriage License By Louisiana Justice Of The Peace

You'd be very hard pressed (I hope) to find an American in his 20's or 30's who doesn't see the GLARING civil rights violation this JOP committed, Newby -- but if you look around among Baby Boomers or their elders, it would be possible, yes. I can CLEARLY remember the physical risks interracial couples (hetero) faced in my HS and even college years. Random assaults on the street were not uncommon.....some/many strangers were extremely angry at the very sight of them and would attack.

My point is, the clear light of day has us all 100% certain that interracial marriage is an American civil right....and only 40 years ago, a majority of US adults were unsure or opposed. Gay marriage has far more popular support now than interracial marriage had then and it is a legal inevitabilty in this country. And for the same reason -- it is an adult's personal, private civil right to marry the adult they choose, regardless of gender.

Your kids and grandkids are gonna wonder WTF all the fuss was over, just as you may wonder HTF anyone in their right mind could ever have opposed interracial marriage. That's the beauty of this country....we move inevitablily towards freedom as our one true road.

The only difference being that your example does not fit the same criteria that we have now with gays. An interracial couple were still 1 male and 1 female, what is happening now is the effort to change the fundamental meaning of what marriage is and has been for centuries.

Yes you are correct. They are trying to change the fundamental meaning of marriage and correct centuries of injustice. Can you explain the harm you will suffer if gays are allowed to marry?

 

[bodecea]

Did I say anything about 'American'? I don't think so, you might try addressing the post instead of arguing with a strawman.

Yanno Newby, I am not a christian and even I know, polygamy and same sex marriage along with every other adult love pair bond possible between or among human adults is all described in the Bible in very loving terms.

Are you a "cafeteria christian", who just follows the Bible when it suits her?

In loving terms?? I guess I missed that part then.

Jonathan and David.

 

[bodecea]

We're talking about the institution of marriage, which was a concept long before America was. Get with it.

Let me completely clear. The caselaw and legal principles I spoke of as dating back to the Magna Carta are predominately about the property and inheritance rights of spouses and children in families...not about the outer limits of who may legally form a marriage. It has only been 43 years since Loving v. Virginia declared miscegenation laws are unconstitutional and yet STILL just last year, a JOP in Louisiana refused to marry an interracial couple (hetero) because "he doesn't believe in it".

Interracial Couple Denied Marriage License By Louisiana Justice Of The Peace

You'd be very hard pressed (I hope) to find an American in his 20's or 30's who doesn't see the GLARING civil rights violation this JOP committed, Newby -- but if you look around among Baby Boomers or their elders, it would be possible, yes. I can CLEARLY remember the physical risks interracial couples (hetero) faced in my HS and even college years. Random assaults on the street were not uncommon.....some/many strangers were extremely angry at the very sight of them and would attack.

My point is, the clear light of day has us all 100% certain that interracial marriage is an American civil right....and only 40 years ago, a majority of US adults were unsure or opposed. Gay marriage has far more popular support now than interracial marriage had then and it is a legal inevitabilty in this country. And for the same reason -- it is an adult's personal, private civil right to marry the adult they choose, regardless of gender.

Your kids and grandkids are gonna wonder WTF all the fuss was over, just as you may wonder HTF anyone in their right mind could ever have opposed interracial marriage. That's the beauty of this country....we move inevitablily towards freedom as our one true road.

The only difference being that your example does not fit the same criteria that we have now with gays. An interracial couple were still 1 male and 1 female, what is happening now is the effort to change the fundamental meaning of what marriage is and has been for centuries.

Show where American law FOR CENTURIES has stated that legal marriage is only between one man and one woman.

Links plz.

 

[Intense]

Yanno Newby, I am not a christian and even I know, polygamy and same sex marriage along with every other adult love pair bond possible between or among human adults is all described in the Bible in very loving terms.

Are you a "cafeteria christian", who just follows the Bible when it suits her?

In loving terms?? I guess I missed that part then.

Jonathan and David.

Jonathan and David

That's disputable. I've seen both sides of that argument, at best you can question it. The reference is not conclusive. Not a good defense at all. If you can get past Roman's Chapter 1 and 2, you might have something scripturally, but I doubt it. You'd be better off with the Nobody's perfect, we all have vices defense. We all carry burdens, there are no exceptions.

 

[bodecea]

In loving terms?? I guess I missed that part then.

Jonathan and David.

Jonathan and David

That's disputable. I've seen both sides of that argument, at best you can question it. The reference is not conclusive. Not a good defense at all. If you can get past Roman's Chapter 1 and 2, you might have something scripturally, but I doubt it. You'd be better off with the Nobody's perfect, we all have vices defense. We all carry burdens, there are no exceptions.

Ahem. You can question EVERYTHING in the Bible.

 

[Madeline]

Ask any Jew. The Old Testament is more or less the Torah, and they have 5,000 years' practice interpreting it. Judaism is likely the most sex-positive of all mainstream American religions and the OT definately DOES contemplate same sex marriage.

 

[The Rabbi]

Ask any Jew. The Old Testament is more or less the Torah, and they have 5,000 years' practice interpreting it. Judaism is likely the most sex-positive of all mainstream American religions and the OT definately DOES contemplate same sex marriage.

Talking out of your ass again? Do you have any--anything at all-support for that statement? I mean like something based in reality.

 

[Madeline]

Ask any Jew. The Old Testament is more or less the Torah, and they have 5,000 years' practice interpreting it. Judaism is likely the most sex-positive of all mainstream American religions and the OT definately DOES contemplate same sex marriage.

Talking out of your ass again? Do you have any--anything at all-support for that statement? I mean like something based in reality.

I'm fresh out of Jews right at the moment, The Rabbi. Lemme see if I can scare one up for you.

 

[The Rabbi]

Ask any Jew. The Old Testament is more or less the Torah, and they have 5,000 years' practice interpreting it. Judaism is likely the most sex-positive of all mainstream American religions and the OT definately DOES contemplate same sex marriage.

Talking out of your ass again? Do you have any--anything at all-support for that statement? I mean like something based in reality.

I'm fresh out of Jews right at the moment, The Rabbi. Lemme see if I can scare one up for you.

So the answer is: Yes. No.
Glad we cleared that one up.
Any other pieces of misinformation or misconceptions you'd care to post? How about the fact that Ben Franklin married a young man but had to divorce him when got to Paris?

 

[jillian]

Talking out of your ass again? Do you have any--anything at all-support for that statement? I mean like something based in reality.

I'm fresh out of Jews right at the moment, The Rabbi. Lemme see if I can scare one up for you.

So the answer is: Yes. No.
Glad we cleared that one up.
Any other pieces of misinformation or misconceptions you'd care to post? How about the fact that Ben Franklin married a young man but had to divorce him when got to Paris?

and how would you correct her being the great pretend jewish scholar that you are?

 

[Madeline]

I'm fresh out of Jews right at the moment, The Rabbi. Lemme see if I can scare one up for you.

So the answer is: Yes. No.
Glad we cleared that one up.
Any other pieces of misinformation or misconceptions you'd care to post? How about the fact that Ben Franklin married a young man but had to divorce him when got to Paris?

and how would you correct her being the great pretend jewish scholar that you are?

Pretend Jew is more like it...even a shiksa like me can spot that fake. I dun buy GHook as a Jew, either. What is this weird USMB thingie of claiming cool points that dun belong to you?

We got fake women, fake vets, fake blacks.....yikes!

 

[The Rabbi]

So the answer is: Yes. No.
Glad we cleared that one up.
Any other pieces of misinformation or misconceptions you'd care to post? How about the fact that Ben Franklin married a young man but had to divorce him when got to Paris?

and how would you correct her being the great pretend jewish scholar that you are?

Pretend Jew is more like it...even a shiksa like me can spot that fake. I dun buy GHook as a Jew, either. What is this weird USMB thingie of claiming cool points that dun belong to you?

We got fake women, fake vets, fake blacks.....yikes!

And fake sentient beings. Like you.

I'm not the one that has posted absurd, grossly incorrect things over the past two days here. I wasn't the way who said Joe Biden was Thomas' superior at EEOC. I'm not the one who claimed that the public supports gay marriage. And I'm not the one claiming the "Old Testament" supports homosexual marriage.

 

[Madeline]

and how would you correct her being the great pretend jewish scholar that you are?

Pretend Jew is more like it...even a shiksa like me can spot that fake. I dun buy GHook as a Jew, either. What is this weird USMB thingie of claiming cool points that dun belong to you?

We got fake women, fake vets, fake blacks.....yikes!

And fake sentient beings. Like you.

I'm not the one that has posted absurd, grossly incorrect things over the past two days here. I wasn't the way who said Joe Biden was Thomas' superior at EEOC. I'm not the one who claimed that the public supports gay marriage. And I'm not the one claiming the "Old Testament" supports homosexual marriage.

Man, you DO read all my posts, The Rabbi. I dun know whether to be creeped out or flattered.

I was *wrong* about Joe Biden. I *said* I was *wrong* on the thread where I made my error.

The majority of the American public DOES support gay marriage. See this post.....

http://www.usmessageboard.com/2896282-post215.html

And The OT does speak lovingly of all sorts of adult love pair bonds (and of polygamy), including same sex ones....

http://gardenofpraise.com/bibl15s.htm

 

[Intense]

Jonathan and David.

Jonathan and David

That's disputable. I've seen both sides of that argument, at best you can question it. The reference is not conclusive. Not a good defense at all. If you can get past Roman's Chapter 1 and 2, you might have something scripturally, but I doubt it. You'd be better off with the Nobody's perfect, we all have vices defense. We all carry burdens, there are no exceptions.

Ahem. You can question EVERYTHING in the Bible.

You can Question everything period. Free will is pretty cool huh.

From my perspective, I have a friend that is closer than a brother, this is a platonic friendship. I am familiar with the verses used on your side of the argument, and I know they can be interpreted the way you would prefer, but, it is a presumption, taking a leap, to get there. Interpreting it the more accepted way, actually does fit better all the way around.

My point or suggestion, in relation to the Bible would be to question the validity of precepts and Justification's being from God or Man? Where the Scribes Protecting Principle, through the chronicled word of the Prophets, or running cover, abandoning principle, trying to protect and justify misdeeds of the Prophets and Rulers.

My faith in God is complete, I surrender to it. My faith is not in anything of this world, though I appreciate this world. The Written word is at best other peoples words telling us what God is, and what God is not. Is it inspired, Yes, are there appear to be contradictions, yes. At some point in our lives we all need training wheels, there may come a time when we may even need them again. I believe that we are each meant to see and experience life through our own eyes, our own experience. God gave us Conscience as a guide and barometer, we learn through cause and effect, experience, and what we share. The Gay thing, even Gay Marriage is between you and your Maker, My load under the same Authority. My advice is that you coin a different term other than the word Marriage, be creative, have fun with it. You will find much more tolerance and support doing that.
Locke followed the two great commandments and built the foundation of his philosophy on them. Jefferson pretty much limited his interest to Psalm's, Proverbs, and Jesus words in the New Testament. We are all governed by cause and effect. Conscience first in all things.

 

[Madeline]

Now that sounded truely inspired.

Thankies, Intense.

 

[The Rabbi]

Pretend Jew is more like it...even a shiksa like me can spot that fake. I dun buy GHook as a Jew, either. What is this weird USMB thingie of claiming cool points that dun belong to you?

We got fake women, fake vets, fake blacks.....yikes!

And fake sentient beings. Like you.

I'm not the one that has posted absurd, grossly incorrect things over the past two days here. I wasn't the way who said Joe Biden was Thomas' superior at EEOC. I'm not the one who claimed that the public supports gay marriage. And I'm not the one claiming the "Old Testament" supports homosexual marriage.

Man, you DO read all my posts, The Rabbi. I dun know whether to be creeped out or flattered.

I was *wrong* about Joe Biden. I *said* I was *wrong* on the thread where I made my error.

The majority of the American public DOES support gay marriage. See this post.....

http://www.usmessageboard.com/2896282-post215.html

And The OT does speak lovingly of all sorts of adult love pair bonds (and of polygamy), including same sex ones....


David and Jonathan

Joe Biden was never head of EEOC.
Gay marriage has failed in every ballot measure.
The OT condemns homosexual sex and prescribes teh death penalty for it.

Facts are inconvenient things, I know. Better to make them up to suit yourself.

 

[Madeline]

The Rabbi wrote:

Joe Biden was never head of EEOC.
Gay marriage has failed in every ballot measure.
The OT condemns homosexual sex and prescribes teh death penalty for it.

Facts are inconvenient things, I know. Better to make them up to suit yourself.

I was in error about Joe Biden, and I have said so. Let me see a post you made in which you admitted a mistake of fact, The Rabbi.

Gay marriage has failed in ballot initiatives because of interference from organized religions, not because the average American does not support GLBT people's rights. You can bang that drum all you like, but the research is unequivocal.

The OT includes more passages than Levittucuss, which you misinterpret anyway.

Gentiles who claim to be Jews on the 'net for the stolen cool points are assholes, and don't realize how easy it is to see through their costume.