Conservatives Battle Liberals In The Classroom

[PoliticalChic]

And your bailiwick is starting a thread that was never about education...merely pretext for your real agenda...pinning Marxism to the left nefariously through Paulo Freire...

Ah, the BoringFriendlessGuy is back.

But, then again, where else could he go?

I suspect that there may be a reason Friendless returns to a thread on which he as been stomped, over and over, time and time again: he’s Friendless.

Any response, no matter how dispositive, no matter how insulting to his argument, his intellect, or his manhood, serves as inducement for Friendless to post a long, repetitive, and often boring response, frequently baited with logical errors, hoping to coax further repartee, and all because- you guessed it: he is lonely.

BoringFriendlessGuy has no compunction about hijacking a thread, or posting huge multicolored font, charts, and graphs that have no bearing on the subject of the thread, or even ending a thread by long, boring pedantry, other than having killed the ‘golden goose’ of a place to post…but then he’s not that smart.

Borrowing from Sherlock Holmes, I would venture a guess that BoringFriendlessGuy might suffer from a speech impediment, which relegates any badinage to cyberspace.

Or- possibly, folks in his locale are more easily able to see him coming, and beat a hasty retreat, than posters on the message board, and so we are the beneficiaries of his argufying ambush!

Again and again he returns to the source of his psychological nourishment, similar to the behavior of a hyena or other scavenger, seeing any opportunity to post as though another scrap of polemical ‘meat’.

If the post does not speak for itself, I for one find him as welcome as emphysema at a glass-blowers convention.

Although I expect to be disappointed, let’s hope that this missive serves as our adieu, BoringFriendlessGuy.

Well PC, I wouldn't show your post to anyone you hope to gain friendship with...

You level descriptions of "the behavior of a hyena or other scavenger", then you exhibit it.

"Resort is had to ridicule only when reason is against us."
Thomas Jefferson

See, what'd I tell ya:

"Again and again he returns to the source of his psychological nourishment, similar to the behavior of a hyena or other scavenger, seeing any opportunity to post as though another scrap of polemical ‘meat’."


Not a healthcare professional, I can't decide whether it is a neurosis or a psychosis.

 

[Bfgrn]

Ah, the BoringFriendlessGuy is back.

But, then again, where else could he go?

I suspect that there may be a reason Friendless returns to a thread on which he as been stomped, over and over, time and time again: he’s Friendless.

Any response, no matter how dispositive, no matter how insulting to his argument, his intellect, or his manhood, serves as inducement for Friendless to post a long, repetitive, and often boring response, frequently baited with logical errors, hoping to coax further repartee, and all because- you guessed it: he is lonely.

BoringFriendlessGuy has no compunction about hijacking a thread, or posting huge multicolored font, charts, and graphs that have no bearing on the subject of the thread, or even ending a thread by long, boring pedantry, other than having killed the ‘golden goose’ of a place to post…but then he’s not that smart.

Borrowing from Sherlock Holmes, I would venture a guess that BoringFriendlessGuy might suffer from a speech impediment, which relegates any badinage to cyberspace.

Or- possibly, folks in his locale are more easily able to see him coming, and beat a hasty retreat, than posters on the message board, and so we are the beneficiaries of his argufying ambush!

Again and again he returns to the source of his psychological nourishment, similar to the behavior of a hyena or other scavenger, seeing any opportunity to post as though another scrap of polemical ‘meat’.

If the post does not speak for itself, I for one find him as welcome as emphysema at a glass-blowers convention.

Although I expect to be disappointed, let’s hope that this missive serves as our adieu, BoringFriendlessGuy.

Well PC, I wouldn't show your post to anyone you hope to gain friendship with...

You level descriptions of "the behavior of a hyena or other scavenger", then you exhibit it.

"Resort is had to ridicule only when reason is against us."
Thomas Jefferson

See, what'd I tell ya:

"Again and again he returns to the source of his psychological nourishment, similar to the behavior of a hyena or other scavenger, seeing any opportunity to post as though another scrap of polemical ‘meat’."


Not a healthcare professional, I can't decide whether it is a neurosis or a psychosis.

Here's an idea...why don't you show my behavior "similar to the behavior of a hyena or other scavenger"...and then it will be my turn...

 

[PoliticalChic]

Well PC, I wouldn't show your post to anyone you hope to gain friendship with...

You level descriptions of "the behavior of a hyena or other scavenger", then you exhibit it.

"Resort is had to ridicule only when reason is against us."
Thomas Jefferson

See, what'd I tell ya:

"Again and again he returns to the source of his psychological nourishment, similar to the behavior of a hyena or other scavenger, seeing any opportunity to post as though another scrap of polemical ‘meat’."


Not a healthcare professional, I can't decide whether it is a neurosis or a psychosis.

Here's an idea...why don't you show my behavior "similar to the behavior of a hyena or other scavenger"...and then it will be my turn...

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Jump to: navigation, search
Look up perseverate in Wiktionary, the free dictionary.

Perseveration is the uncontrollable repetition of a particular response, such as a word, phrase, or gesture, despite the absence or cessation of a stimulus, usually caused by brain injury or other organic disorder. If an issue has been fully explored and discussed to a point of resolution it is not uncommon for something to trigger the re-investigation of the matter. This can happen at any time during a conversation. This is particularly true with those who have had traumatic brain injuries. Those with Asperger syndrome may display a form of perseveration in that they focus on one or a number of narrow interests. This phenomenon can also occur in people with schizophrenia.

Several researchers have tried to connect perseveration with a lack of inhibition; however, this connection could not be found, or was small.[1][2]

 

[Bfgrn]

See, what'd I tell ya:

"Again and again he returns to the source of his psychological nourishment, similar to the behavior of a hyena or other scavenger, seeing any opportunity to post as though another scrap of polemical ‘meat’."


Not a healthcare professional, I can't decide whether it is a neurosis or a psychosis.

Here's an idea...why don't you show my behavior "similar to the behavior of a hyena or other scavenger"...and then it will be my turn...

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Jump to: navigation, search
Look up perseverate in Wiktionary, the free dictionary.

Perseveration is the uncontrollable repetition of a particular response, such as a word, phrase, or gesture, despite the absence or cessation of a stimulus, usually caused by brain injury or other organic disorder. If an issue has been fully explored and discussed to a point of resolution it is not uncommon for something to trigger the re-investigation of the matter. This can happen at any time during a conversation. This is particularly true with those who have had traumatic brain injuries. Those with Asperger syndrome may display a form of perseveration in that they focus on one or a number of narrow interests. This phenomenon can also occur in people with schizophrenia.

Several researchers have tried to connect perseveration with a lack of inhibition; however, this connection could not be found, or was small.[1][2]

5. Liberals hunt for reasons to be insulted the way pigs hunt for truffles. Once they find a satisfactory mote in this category, they feel that it is entirely appropriate for them to use, not logic, facts, nor accepted debating techniques, but ad hominem attacks on the physical appearance, personal history, or imaginary mental defects.

I guess that would make you a .......................................liberal

 

[PoliticalChic]

Here's an idea...why don't you show my behavior "similar to the behavior of a hyena or other scavenger"...and then it will be my turn...

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Jump to: navigation, search
Look up perseverate in Wiktionary, the free dictionary.

Perseveration is the uncontrollable repetition of a particular response, such as a word, phrase, or gesture, despite the absence or cessation of a stimulus, usually caused by brain injury or other organic disorder. If an issue has been fully explored and discussed to a point of resolution it is not uncommon for something to trigger the re-investigation of the matter. This can happen at any time during a conversation. This is particularly true with those who have had traumatic brain injuries. Those with Asperger syndrome may display a form of perseveration in that they focus on one or a number of narrow interests. This phenomenon can also occur in people with schizophrenia.

Several researchers have tried to connect perseveration with a lack of inhibition; however, this connection could not be found, or was small.[1][2]

5. Liberals hunt for reasons to be insulted the way pigs hunt for truffles. Once they find a satisfactory mote in this category, they feel that it is entirely appropriate for them to use, not logic, facts, nor accepted debating techniques, but ad hominem attacks on the physical appearance, personal history, or imaginary mental defects.

I guess that would make you a .......................................liberal

Didn't you understand this: "Although I expect to be disappointed, let’s hope that this missive serves as our adieu, BoringFriendlessGuy."

'Hints' are wasted on you.

 

[Bfgrn]

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Jump to: navigation, search
Look up perseverate in Wiktionary, the free dictionary.

Perseveration is the uncontrollable repetition of a particular response, such as a word, phrase, or gesture, despite the absence or cessation of a stimulus, usually caused by brain injury or other organic disorder. If an issue has been fully explored and discussed to a point of resolution it is not uncommon for something to trigger the re-investigation of the matter. This can happen at any time during a conversation. This is particularly true with those who have had traumatic brain injuries. Those with Asperger syndrome may display a form of perseveration in that they focus on one or a number of narrow interests. This phenomenon can also occur in people with schizophrenia.

Several researchers have tried to connect perseveration with a lack of inhibition; however, this connection could not be found, or was small.[1][2]

5. Liberals hunt for reasons to be insulted the way pigs hunt for truffles. Once they find a satisfactory mote in this category, they feel that it is entirely appropriate for them to use, not logic, facts, nor accepted debating techniques, but ad hominem attacks on the physical appearance, personal history, or imaginary mental defects.

I guess that would make you a .......................................liberal

Didn't you understand this: "Although I expect to be disappointed, let’s hope that this missive serves as our adieu, BoringFriendlessGuy."

'Hints' are wasted on you.

I completely understand...you want out before you are embarrassed and exposed...again...


In skating over thin ice our safety is in our speed.
Ralph Waldo Emerson

 

[PoliticalChic]

Didn't you understand this: "Although I expect to be disappointed, let’s hope that this missive serves as our adieu, BoringFriendlessGuy."

'Hints' are wasted on you.

I completely understand...you want out before you are embarrassed and exposed...again...


In skating over thin ice our safety is in our speed.
Ralph Waldo Emerson

Would this be considered cyberstalking?

Go away.

 

[Bfgrn]

Didn't you understand this: "Although I expect to be disappointed, let’s hope that this missive serves as our adieu, BoringFriendlessGuy."

'Hints' are wasted on you.

I completely understand...you want out before you are embarrassed and exposed...again...


In skating over thin ice our safety is in our speed.
Ralph Waldo Emerson

Would this be considered cyberstalking?

Go away.

I didn't know I was keeping you here...

 

[PoliticalChic]

I completely understand...you want out before you are embarrassed and exposed...again...


In skating over thin ice our safety is in our speed.
Ralph Waldo Emerson

Would this be considered cyberstalking?

Go away.

I didn't know I was keeping you here...

Ah, the BoringFriendlessGuy is back.

But, then again, where else could he go?

I suspect that there may be a reason Friendless returns to a thread on which he as been stomped, over and over, time and time again: he’s Friendless.

Any response, no matter how dispositive, no matter how insulting to his argument, his intellect, or his manhood, serves as inducement for Friendless to post a long, repetitive, and often boring response, frequently baited with logical errors, hoping to coax further repartee, and all because- you guessed it: he is lonely.

BoringFriendlessGuy has no compunction about hijacking a thread, or posting huge multicolored font, charts, and graphs that have no bearing on the subject of the thread, or even ending a thread by long, boring pedantry, other than having killed the ‘golden goose’ of a place to post…but then he’s not that smart.

Borrowing from Sherlock Holmes, I would venture a guess that BoringFriendlessGuy might suffer from a speech impediment, which relegates any badinage to cyberspace.

Or- possibly, folks in his locale are more easily able to see him coming, and beat a hasty retreat, than posters on the message board, and so we are the beneficiaries of his argufying ambush!

Again and again he returns to the source of his psychological nourishment, similar to the behavior of a hyena or other scavenger, seeing any opportunity to post as though another scrap of polemical ‘meat’.

If the post does not speak for itself, I for one find him as welcome as emphysema at a glass-blowers convention.

Although I expect to be disappointed, let’s hope that this missive serves as our adieu, BoringFriendlessGuy.

 

[Bfgrn]

The Education-Crime Connection

There is a clear, reverse relationship between education--in particular, staying in school--and crime.

Among, blacks that drop out of school almost 50% will be convicted of a crime and sent to prison. (The Week, 9/12/2003).

Among other races the rate is lower, but still one in every 37 of these male adults is a convicted criminal.race reading proficiency

The with more than two-million citizens in prison, the United States has the highest incarceration rate in the industrialized world.

But, instead of bolstering our education system, we are reducing funding and spending more and more on prisons. The Chicago Sun-Times said in an editorial on this topic, we are witnessing an "enormous social failure."

As if education wasn't important enough to our nation's future and ability to compete in the world, we seem to be ignoring the fact that in terms of dollars and "sense" we are spending millions on putting more and more people in prison while neglecting the very thing that could alleviate the problem.

The cost of crime goes far beyond the millions we're spending on prisons. When you add the costs of police, ER services, courts, insurance, loss of property and human lives, the cost becomes truly incalculable.

To balance budgets we are also cutting drug education programs. And it's drug related crime that's earning even low-level dealers Draconian 10 and 20 year prison sentences.

All issues of human compassion and citizen welfare aside, when you stand back and look at this issues from an economic standpoint, the education solution simply makes sense.

 

[Dr.Traveler]

1. If the standardized test does not measure what you wish it to measure, the problem is with the test. Revamp.

Easier said than done, but ok.

2. "...invariably scantron multiple choice tests.' Also untrue.
NYState exams in HS, called Regents Exams are largely hand marked and subjective. Essay tests.

Hand graded examinations are costly, take time to grade, and are vulnerable to bias on the part of the grader.

I'm all for hand grading, but in order to eliminate bias you'll need each test graded by multiple graders, with a secure blind process, and with enough time to do the job right. All of that is fine if you're willing to spend the money to do this correctly. The problem is that schools are facing rising classroom sizes and shrinking budgets. Where the money to do this will come from is a major issue.

3. Nothing wrong with teaching how to address questions. Especially if that is the kind of test they will face in international competitions.

"Teaching to the test" is the reason that education is producing such dismal results as is. If a student only knows how to apply knowledge in a few specific cases, then they are failing to develop reasoning skills and only learning indoctrination. I thought Conservatives valued reasoning over indoctrination?

4. "Multiple choice tests fail because they do not measure true knowledge or proficiency."

Largely untrue; you have succumbed to a tenet of progressive education, i.e. a rejection of subject matter.

Strategies for Multiple Choice Tests

 

[Dr.Traveler]

Thanks.

It appears that the main posters on this thread have their expertise in teaching mathematics.

I've tried to broaden the discussion to include the question of progressive vs. traditional education, but, alas, it seems that everyone wants to remain in their own baileywick.

But, it's been fun.

Your OP is an attack on attempts to update mathematics curriculum. Of course it attracted those of us interested in mathematics, and of course they discussed mathematics. That should not be surprising.

 

[Charles Stucker]

Your OP is an attack on attempts to update mathematics curriculum. Of course it attracted those of us interested in mathematics, and of course they discussed mathematics. That should not be surprising.

I felt it was more an attack on "change for the sake of change" but we've been over that. I thanked you for (hopefully) getting this back on the topic of education and off the hostility between posters seen on the last couple of pages.
If liberalism was bout carefully examining the effectiveness of new ideas I could support it more. Unfortunately too many liberals look at an idea and rate it like fashion; the newer and flashier the better.
If we were to consider the space consisting of all education methods feasible, and rate those methods on their success in a general way, I believe we would find that the education methods which evolved over the centuries and culminated in the 19th/early 20th century methods are very good methods. Yes there are certain to exist other methodologies which might create better results, but the problem arises in identifying those methods. I've watched PhD candidates propose all sorts of "new" methods and invariably the "best" methods rely on one thing - the forceful charismatic personality of the PhD candidate.
What this suggests to me is that classes in personal mental discipline and oratory/debate may be more beneficial than some of the tripe taught to teachers. Imagine a teacher who is able to control a class of students without interruption for an entire lesson. That would add a lot to any curricula, but the models taught to teachers tend to emphasize Political correctness, "new methods" and "right thinking" not actually teaching the subject and expecting a high level of performance from students.

 

[PoliticalChic]

1. If the standardized test does not measure what you wish it to measure, the problem is with the test. Revamp.

Easier said than done, but ok.

2. "...invariably scantron multiple choice tests.' Also untrue.
NYState exams in HS, called Regents Exams are largely hand marked and subjective. Essay tests.

Hand graded examinations are costly, take time to grade, and are vulnerable to bias on the part of the grader.

I'm all for hand grading, but in order to eliminate bias you'll need each test graded by multiple graders, with a secure blind process, and with enough time to do the job right. All of that is fine if you're willing to spend the money to do this correctly. The problem is that schools are facing rising classroom sizes and shrinking budgets. Where the money to do this will come from is a major issue.

3. Nothing wrong with teaching how to address questions. Especially if that is the kind of test they will face in international competitions.

"Teaching to the test" is the reason that education is producing such dismal results as is. If a student only knows how to apply knowledge in a few specific cases, then they are failing to develop reasoning skills and only learning indoctrination. I thought Conservatives valued reasoning over indoctrination?

4. "Multiple choice tests fail because they do not measure true knowledge or proficiency."

Largely untrue; you have succumbed to a tenet of progressive education, i.e. a rejection of subject matter.

Strategies for Multiple Choice Tests

I can see that you are not able to digest the larger picture, and how the leftward slant in society has influence you, and resulted in the depredation of education.

For others reading these posts, imagine that DrT was a carpenter, and had been told by his mentors that using blunt nails without sharp points was the correct way to build, and throughout his career he just kept thinking "I've just got to hit them harder."

Education must find a way to eliminate such 'carpenters,' and find folks who will use methods that have been shown to work.

 

[PoliticalChic]

Your OP is an attack on attempts to update mathematics curriculum. Of course it attracted those of us interested in mathematics, and of course they discussed mathematics. That should not be surprising.

I felt it was more an attack on "change for the sake of change" but we've been over that. I thanked you for (hopefully) getting this back on the topic of education and off the hostility between posters seen on the last couple of pages.
If liberalism was bout carefully examining the effectiveness of new ideas I could support it more. Unfortunately too many liberals look at an idea and rate it like fashion; the newer and flashier the better.
If we were to consider the space consisting of all education methods feasible, and rate those methods on their success in a general way, I believe we would find that the education methods which evolved over the centuries and culminated in the 19th/early 20th century methods are very good methods. Yes there are certain to exist other methodologies which might create better results, but the problem arises in identifying those methods. I've watched PhD candidates propose all sorts of "new" methods and invariably the "best" methods rely on one thing - the forceful charismatic personality of the PhD candidate.
What this suggests to me is that classes in personal mental discipline and oratory/debate may be more beneficial than some of the tripe taught to teachers. Imagine a teacher who is able to control a class of students without interruption for an entire lesson. That would add a lot to any curricula, but the models taught to teachers tend to emphasize Political correctness, "new methods" and "right thinking" not actually teaching the subject and expecting a high level of performance from students.

"...and rate those methods on their success in a general way, I believe we would find that the education methods which evolved over the centuries and culminated in the 19th/early 20th century methods are very good methods. "

Well put.

 

[Dr.Traveler]

I can see that you are not able to digest the larger picture, and how the leftward slant in society has influence you, and resulted in the depredation of education.

For others reading these posts, imagine that DrT was a carpenter, and had been told by his mentors that using blunt nails without sharp points was the correct way to build, and throughout his career he just kept thinking "I've just got to hit them harder."

Education must find a way to eliminate such 'carpenters,' and find folks who will use methods that have been shown to work.

Never a substantive response. Notice the methodology of PoliticalChic. Despite a refutation point by point, she is unable to actually refute such points and is forced, as evidenced by her responses to myself and others in this thread, to resort to name calling and dismissive outbursts of smug superiority.

PoliticalChic, you do more damage to your own positions than I could ever do. I salute you.

 

[Dr.Traveler]

Yes there are certain to exist other methodologies which might create better results, but the problem arises in identifying those methods. I've watched PhD candidates propose all sorts of "new" methods and invariably the "best" methods rely on one thing - the forceful charismatic personality of the PhD candidate.

That is a problem. Even if you come up with a very good methodology, dissemenating it out to the teaching population in an effective manner is tough, and teaching a topic or methodology is doomed to failure unless the teacher is throughly versed in exactly how things work.

I've actually seen a similar thing play out involving computerized homework. I've seen various schools implement computerized homework, and it is beginning to appear that the factor that most determines success is the enthusiasm and familiarity of the teacher with the program. We've implemented two seperate homework programs. One has increased success rates by 20% when coupled with other changes (call is program A) in the course, the other has landed with a resounding thud (call it program B). Placed side by side, Program B seems like it should have been the clear winner. Students are provided with more help, more resources, and a cleaner easier to use interface. C'est la vie.

 

[PoliticalChic]

I can see that you are not able to digest the larger picture, and how the leftward slant in society has influence you, and resulted in the depredation of education.

For others reading these posts, imagine that DrT was a carpenter, and had been told by his mentors that using blunt nails without sharp points was the correct way to build, and throughout his career he just kept thinking "I've just got to hit them harder."

Education must find a way to eliminate such 'carpenters,' and find folks who will use methods that have been shown to work.

Never a substantive response. Notice the methodology of PoliticalChic. Despite a refutation point by point, she is unable to actually refute such points and is forced, as evidenced by her responses to myself and others in this thread, to resort to name calling and dismissive outbursts of smug superiority.

PoliticalChic, you do more damage to your own positions than I could ever do. I salute you.

Silly word play.

What remains is that you are unable to comprehend the big picture, and the deleterious effects of liberalism.

Happily, President Obama is managing to perform the same emasculation of liberalism as President Wilson did to progressivism.

My hope is that the same distruction extends to liberal influence in pedagogy.

Nor do I expect you to understand any of the above.

 

[Dr.Traveler]

Nor do I expect you to understand any of the above.

Let me know when you start actually addressing the issues instead of babbling. At that point, you might be worth the effort to understand.

 

[PoliticalChic]

Nor do I expect you to understand any of the above.

Let me know when you start actually addressing the issues instead of babbling. At that point, you might be worth the effort to understand.

My friend, it seems that you end all of your posts in answer to mine with something along the line of the far too optimistic “There, I’ve dispensed with you.”

No, you haven’t.

While you may be well meaning, and a passable math instructor, you and those of your persuasion remain enemies of enlightenment.

The question at the core of each of our jousts is “why continue with progressive pedagogy when more traditional methods regularly produce better results.?”

Time and again, liberal, socialist, communist theorists, when faced with the same question, respond with one of the following:
a) it’s different this time
b) it wasn’t tried long enough
c) not enough money was dedicated to the program
d) this has nothing to do with political philosophy.

The latter excuse would be your choice.

No matter what ideas you cling to, you are not the ally of education.

As for "Let me know..." I should aprise you of the fact that my posts use yours simply as a vehicle to allow thinking members of the board to consider a major battle in pedagogy.

I have no view that you can be convinced, as you have not the background, perspective nor willingness to consider the facts.

Thanks for giving me the opportunity.