Dear Oldguy and Professor: Thank you both for bringing up key points that will need to be answered in this process. I apologize my previous explanations to OG are too vague and general, and would make more sense giving specific examples.
The simplest example I can give of people using natural laws the same way Christians use scripture, is instead of talking with a secular humanist/atheist using the Bible which is not their law, you might cite Constitutional laws or principles. Such as free speech, or equal protections of the law. So if you explain that jesus represents equal justice under law for all people, that uses terms of natural laws where they do have values with meaning to them.
I also found citing natural laws works better with my American Muslim friends. instead of arguing over Jesus in the Bible, I've had more success communicating and understanding each other by using Constitutional laws as the common frame of reference. So corrections that Christian make using Matthew 18:15-20 do not mean to use the Bible only; if the person responds better to explanations using civil laws, those come from natural laws. One of the most common mistake I find Christians make that causes rejection is insisting on using the Bible to preach at people, instead of explaining using their own laws and belief system.
I once heard two people arguing at an atheist protest against the national day of prayer.
A Christian who came to witness to the atheists kept taunting the head of the group: you need Jesus! While he kept turning around and saying no i don't, back and forth. finally i asked him do you believe in justice, and he said yes. so i explained well that's the same thing. if you believe justice will come, that is what it means for Jesus to return and come back for all people. I also shared this idea with a Christian friend, who took a few minutes to realize what it means that jesus means justice and she agreed later. The difference is both people will keep using their same laws to approach justice. but hopefully we can agree we want the same kind of justice, justice for all, restorative justice, justice with mercy where we forgive but we also make corrections and work out restitution. And hopefully we can agree we don't want retributive justice imposed on us, so why impose this on other people. Restorative Justice includes and protects all interests equally, so in the end this makes us equal. so instead of fighting over church or state laws in competition and conflict, can we agree that truly universal and equal justice will satisfy both standards of laws? this is what it means for the spirit of jesus to fulfill the law as the authority for all. it does not mean everyone will be under church law. those under state/natural laws are also covered. The deciding factor is not whether we believe in church laws or in personifying jesus as Christians do, but whether we believe in restorative justice and take the laws we do follow to heart by conscience and enforce them by living by them ourselves. that is the equivalent of taking Jesus into our hearts, is whether we also fully forgive in order to embody the laws the same way Christians do with scriptural laws. if we do not forgive, we end up under retributive justice that kills relationships instead of forgiving before seeking corrections which save relationships. so that forgiveness needed for restorative justice is the deciding factor in salvation, regardless if we personify this as jesus or not.
What are you looking for? A universally accepted religion?
Good luck with that. You're not going to find any way to bridge the differences in Christianity and Islam. One accepts Jesus Christ as the Son of God and one the Trinity and the other categorically rejects it. Nor will you get many Christian's to agree with Jews that Jesus was not the promised Messiah. These are fundamental concepts which cannot be discarded or agreed away.
Hi Oldguy: no, the point is to work WITH the given systems as is.
like the several states all under one law of the nation but remaining sovereign under
their respective local laws and leaders. we don't necessarily convert from TX or CA law
to Constitutional law, but we make sure to reconcile any conflicts so we can follow both.
And there are ALREADY people reconciling Muslim/Christian
or Jewish/Christian etc.
the Messianic Jews are a denomination under the Southern Baptist Convention
so why not a denomination just for Muslim/Christians.
I have Muslim friends who are faithful to the teachings in Islam to
follow the Jewish Torah, Christian Scriptures and Muslim Quran.
All that is missing is to finish reconciling in Christ
and you're right some may choose to drop Islam after that
some may bring Christ into Islam.
The point is to resolve conflicts and then see what happens after that.
not to judge just because we don't think it will happen
cus there's already people who have reconciled this
within their own families or communities and we just need to share more of the same.
Thanks for replying!
Christians believe that Jesus is the son of God, and Muslims believe Him to be merely a Prophet on the same order as Muhammad. Good luck trying to reconcile that conflict.
What you have to recognize is that if Muslims were to accept the divinity of Christ, they would have to denounce their faith and embrace Christianity. Conversely, if Christians were to accept that Christ is just another prophet – like Muhammad – they would have to abandon their own faith. Chances of that ever happening: ZERO.
Actually, even Christians cannot agree on who Jesus is. Some believe he is the son of God (having no existence until his birth), while other believe he is an equal part of a Holy Trinity of Father, Son and Holy Ghost, while still others believe He is God Himself. I am convinced it is impossible to reconcile the many differences existing among those of the Christian faith, and it is laughable to try to reconcile the differences between Christians and those of other faiths. Of course I could be wrong. I mean, I've never been wrong before, but it could happen (joking).
Edited to add the following:
Some Christians believe that justification is by faith alone and that good works are irrelevant; however, other Christians believe that salvation is through works, and faitfoh without works is dead. Some Christians believe in the doctrine of "once saved always saved" whereby one cannot lose salvation after accepting Christ; however, other Christians believe that those who continue in sin after knowing of Christ are to be treated as an infidel or worse. Some Christians believe in a pre-tribulation rapture and others say the Book of Revelation precludes such an event.
If you cannot first make peace among the Christians , you have no chance of reconciling those of obviously conflicting faiths.
Dear Professor: Thank you for bringing up more points that I agree need to be reconciled.
1. For Muslims and Christians, I find that for either Muslims atheists or even Jehovah's Witnesses who do not recognize the divinity of Jesus as Christians do,
it is more effective to communicate by addressing each other as fellow gentiles under natural laws and framing all issues or corrections from that common reference.
The same need to forgive all conflicts and to seek restorative justice to correct problems still comes up in that context.
So that explains it better, by stating it in terms of whatever common beliefs and values we share, either exercising Islam under constitutional respect for equal religious freedom
or JW theology which is equally protected under constitutional laws, so this also involves enforcing those laws in redressing grievances.
If the other issues about jesus are going to be resolved it will be in this context anyway.
2. As for the other issues, i believe the key points that will open the door for all others to be resolved
is to align the trinity with the values people naturally have, and once they are on the same page
then all the other questions and answers will follow from there
a. with jesus, the critical factor that determines alignment or not is forgiveness
and if people recognize the difference it makes between retributive justice and restorative justice
if this issue is focused on first, any forgiveness it takes to resolve it will solve all other conflicts blocked by unforgiveness
b. with the works/faith issue, most people of faith do believe the faith comes first and the works follow
but under natural laws, people must do or see the proof first before the belief is based on proof
so both processes are going on at once
they should help each other, where the more proof we see the more we believe
such as the more we forgive the more we understand how to correct
and the more we see how to correct the more we understand and forgive
so these work together
where gentiles favor proof first before faith
but with forgiveness sometimes the faith to ask has to come first
before the understanding and corrections follow
In general I believe all the issues you point out
will indeed be resolved in the same process of forgiveness in order to reach reconciliation
as a gentile it is natural you would ask to see proof of such reconciliation before your mind accepts it as fully true
with the spiritual laws, the believers may need to believe it is possible before they ask and work to reconcile it
where the believers have not forgiven each other, that is the first step to unblocking the process.
to come together and agree to forgive and ask help together to receive the corrections
this will invoke jesus or justice to come where those prayers will be answered
where different independent witnesses to truth join and ask together in agreement
that is the spirit that will bring the answers to come forth thank you very much
