Complaints Complaints! Solutions?

[boedicca]

First, Insurance is not an industry. An industry is something that makes something someone will willingly pay for that is IN THE PUBLIC INTEREST.

Considering that many people quite willingly purchase insurance or accept it as part of their compensation package, your claim pins the bogometer.

If Health Insurance is not a desirable service, seemingly highly coveted by those who do not have it, why is Obama's Health Care reform really just Mandatory Health Insurance (with an enormous federal bureaucracy, mandated benefits, and price controls to boot)?

 

[Founder]

There is such a thing as service industries.

There is always room for fine-tuning my proposals and conclusions. Yes, there is such a thing as service, but I would not call it an industry.

Massage is a service, but most all services are in the realm of luxuries that we don't really need, but want.

Yes, we live in a free society and we want to keep it that way, but freedom is not free, it is paid for in many ways, one of which is controls on that freedom so it harms not.

Aristotle wisely said, "All is by permission of politics." A perfect statement except for what he assumed we all knew as well as he knew it. Namely that all in politics is by permission of religion. He lived the the most absolute theocracy man has ever known, and didn't think it warranted being commented upon.

 

[DiamondDave]

Yes, politics. It takes political involvement to solve anything. Are people just too lazy to be involved in politics, and just too money hungry to contribute to worthwhile causes that are trying to solve problems, not create more?

Money hungry?

Let me explain how I, a conservative, sees healthcare.

I am 100% for the way it is now...the taxpayer (like me) pay for those without insurance to use the ER. I dont mind it as I know that if the government gets involved, it may cost me less tax wise, but it will result in bigger government...which is not what this country was founded on.

So contrary to your "money hungry" comment...I am willing to spend money to maintain the sanctity of our republic.

Sorry. Has nothing to do with my hunger for money....AT ALL.

Let's get a few things straight: Health Care is not an industry, it is at best charitable welfare, and if the government is good at anything it is good as handing out welfare.

Nor is health care a business, therefore, none of the rules that apply to business apply to health care. If every aspect of health care disappeared tomorrow the nation's economy would not suffer but rather radically improve. Health care takes, but produces nothing.

The military medical corp should be given the job of providing basic medical care for the underclass who have no insurance, and the rest of society who don't want that level of care can buy what they want on the open market where the government would play no role of any sort.

The best health care I ever had was in the military in its purely socialized medical care system.

We are spending way, way, too much on medical care in this country, and it should be reduced by at least 80 percent.

The cost of health care alone is destroying the country. It went from 2 percent of GDP in 1950 to close to 20% today, and heading to 100%. This is insane.

Legal costs also went from 2% to 20% today, and headed also to 100% of GDP.

We need to knock both these criminal rackets in head with a hammer to stop them ripping off the nation. They are two totally worthless parasites on the nation.

Now scream....

This affirms your idiocy

Health Care is indeed an industry... it is an industry of risk mitigation and calculated gambles resulting in slim profit margins.... what next are you going to tell us? Auto insurance and auto repair is not an industry??
Socialized 'health care' is social welfare....
And if you think government runs welfare 'good', there is truly no help for you... compare the multiple layers of cost associated with a simple welfare or entitlement check and compare it to a viable charitable organization... the government is horrid, inefficient, and too concerned with power to run welfare 'good'

Your level of ignorance is topped off by your claim to be 'military' and to have received 'socialized health care' in the military system.... each and every member of the military contributes and accepts health care in the benefit package for employment... not to mention that each and every person in the military, being an employee and part of a system that relies on them being a healthy and fit fighting machine for national defense, is part of a maintenance plan (for a lack of a better term)... much like up keeping a fleet or a factory full of machines that are necessary for business..
Socialized health care benefits non-contributors at the expense of contributors... it is not a benefit for employment services and is not upkeep for crucial cogs that keep the intended service running

The 'criminal racket' that needs to be worked on is the government itself, that has expanded into a monstrosity... fed by power and greed that is even greater of that of the profit seeking corporations

 

[uscitizen]

yes, politics. It takes political involvement to solve anything. Are people just too lazy to be involved in politics, and just too money hungry to contribute to worthwhile causes that are trying to solve problems, not create more?

ohh no you got that wrong. Politics is the problem not the soloution.

you don't like politics? Try nazism, and communism, and anarchy, and the mafia. That is who you get ruling you when you oppose politics.

huh?

 

[antagon]

Yes, politics. It takes political involvement to solve anything. Are people just too lazy to be involved in politics, and just too money hungry to contribute to worthwhile causes that are trying to solve problems, not create more?

Money hungry?

Let me explain how I, a conservative, sees healthcare.

I am 100% for the way it is now...the taxpayer (like me) pay for those without insurance to use the ER. I dont mind it as I know that if the government gets involved, it may cost me less tax wise, but it will result in bigger government...which is not what this country was founded on.

So contrary to your "money hungry" comment...I am willing to spend money to maintain the sanctity of our republic.

Sorry. Has nothing to do with my hunger for money....AT ALL.

Let's get a few things straight: Health Care is not an industry, it is at best charitable welfare, and if the government is good at anything it is good as handing out welfare.

Nor is health care a business, therefore, none of the rules that apply to business apply to health care. If every aspect of health care disappeared tomorrow the nation's economy would not suffer but rather radically improve. Health care takes, but produces nothing.

The military medical corp should be given the job of providing basic medical care for the underclass who have no insurance, and the rest of society who don't want that level of care can buy what they want on the open market where the government would play no role of any sort.

The best health care I ever had was in the military in its purely socialized medical care system.

We are spending way, way, too much on medical care in this country, and it should be reduced by at least 80 percent.

The cost of health care alone is destroying the country. It went from 2 percent of GDP in 1950 to close to 20% today, and heading to 100%. This is insane.

Legal costs also went from 2% to 20% today, and headed also to 100% of GDP.

We need to knock both these criminal rackets in head with a hammer to stop them ripping off the nation. They are two totally worthless parasites on the nation.

Now scream....

oldandtired, you think that the government pays for the uninsured to visit the ER? what, through bad debt writedowns in april? the health care sector is riddled with lame debt over the uninsured. all components from insurers to suppliers to providers and patients are affected.

it is so consistent that when you run into a voice of vehement opposition to the reforms on the table, it is an uninformed voice.

founder, healthcare is one of the largest sectors of our economy. it is one of those, which given the right nurturing, will be a dominant part of our economy much like manufacture was in the last century. while there is a great deal of public health service from states and federal coffers, there is indeed a huge private health infrastructure, which the rest of the world has room to envy.

to those who havent been paying attention, the public/private setup we have in the US is a point of strength in our economy, and its growth is a testament to that. 'tired fails to realize the status quo, and furthermore that the status quo was emplaced by the government similarly to the plan in the legislature. why do your homework when you can just yap tpoints.

 

[Founder]

Insurance is an industry. I have asked numerous times here and elsewhere, for anyone to explain why the markets or reason demand a for profit health insurance middle man.

No replies yet.

Okay. Let's assume for a moment that we eliminate all health insurance company profits:

He's telling people what they want to hear, not what they need to know. Whatever their sins, insurers are mainly intermediaries; they pass along the costs of the delivery system. In 2009, the largest 14 insurers had profits of roughly $9 billion; that approached 0.4 percent of total health spending of $2.472 trillion. This hardly explains high health costs. What people need to know is that Obama's plan evades health care's major problems and would worsen the budget outlook. It's a big new spending program when government hasn't paid for the spending programs it already has.

RealClearPolitics - Obama's Proposal is the Illusion of 'Reform'


Eliminating $9B (of the largest insurers who make up the majority of the market) from $2,472B is a reduction of .36% (a little over 1/3 of 1%). Let's assume the rest actually round that figure up to a full 1% (which is very inflated). What happens to the remaining 99% of the costs when we removing the little bit of cost control discipline provided by for profit companies?

You miss the whole point about the nature of insurance.

It is not just the profits on total sales at all, not at all. That is totally deceptive. What are the real costs of the insurance "intermediaries"?

It is the massive hidden costs. The costs of administration, including massive sales commissions, horrendous advertising costs, and the even more hidden costs of misdirection and misuse of resources much of them public resources, such as over-use ad nauseum. Insurance encourages. It is by its nature, unnatural and wasteful conduct. It is also by its nature a cost-plus business, where the higher insurance companies drive the costs the greater the sales and the greater all the profits all along the line to all those involved including the doctors and hospitals. What we face is a Health Care Racketeering "Industry." And it needs to be knocked in the head by we the people through our elected representatives.

I'm a very strong Conservative Beleiver Republican, but on this issue, my party is substantially wrong, and so is, in bed with lawyers, Obama. He is total poison in every possible way.

A good estimate, (mine) is over half of all premiums paid-in are a totally waste to society, maybe as much as 70%. Now take that figure and do the subtraction and it is a horrendous figure.

Now we are looking at near 3 trillion in total health spending, of which over 90% is insured work, and you have a waste due to the existence of the insurance "industry" of about 2 trillion a year, which in 10 years would be 20 trillion dollars, not the piffling amounts that "profits" represent.

 

[Founder]

Money hungry?

Let me explain how I, a conservative, sees healthcare.

I am 100% for the way it is now...the taxpayer (like me) pay for those without insurance to use the ER. I dont mind it as I know that if the government gets involved, it may cost me less tax wise, but it will result in bigger government...which is not what this country was founded on.

So contrary to your "money hungry" comment...I am willing to spend money to maintain the sanctity of our republic.

Sorry. Has nothing to do with my hunger for money....AT ALL.

Let's get a few things straight: Health Care is not an industry, it is at best charitable welfare, and if the government is good at anything it is good as handing out welfare.

Nor is health care a business, therefore, none of the rules that apply to business apply to health care. If every aspect of health care disappeared tomorrow the nation's economy would not suffer but rather radically improve. Health care takes, but produces nothing.

The military medical corp should be given the job of providing basic medical care for the underclass who have no insurance, and the rest of society who don't want that level of care can buy what they want on the open market where the government would play no role of any sort.

The best health care I ever had was in the military in its purely socialized medical care system.

We are spending way, way, too much on medical care in this country, and it should be reduced by at least 80 percent.

The cost of health care alone is destroying the country. It went from 2 percent of GDP in 1950 to close to 20% today, and heading to 100%. This is insane.

Legal costs also went from 2% to 20% today, and headed also to 100% of GDP.

We need to knock both these criminal rackets in head with a hammer to stop them ripping off the nation. They are two totally worthless parasites on the nation.

Now scream....

oldandtired, you think that the government pays for the uninsured to visit the ER? what, through bad debt writedowns in april? the health care sector is riddled with lame debt over the uninsured. all components from insurers to suppliers to providers and patients are affected.

it is so consistent that when you run into a voice of vehement opposition to the reforms on the table, it is an uninformed voice.

founder, healthcare is one of the largest sectors of our economy. it is one of those, which given the right nurturing, will be a dominant part of our economy much like manufacture was in the last century. while there is a great deal of public health service from states and federal coffers, there is indeed a huge private health infrastructure, which the rest of the world has room to envy.

to those who havent been paying attention, the public/private setup we have in the US is a point of strength in our economy, and its growth is a testament to that. 'tired fails to realize the status quo, and furthermore that the status quo was emplaced by the government similarly to the plan in the legislature. why do your homework when you can just yap tpoints.

You are just spouting party line talking points that you have not considered or checked.

HEALTH CARE IS NOT AN INDUSTRY AND NEVER HAS BEEN IN THE HISTORY OF THE WORLD AND SHOULD NEVER BE. IT IS LIKE BETTING ON THE LOSING LAME HORSE IN EVERY RACE. IT IS A TOTAL LOSER IN EVERY SENSE EXCEPT AS A CHARITABLE COMPASSION THING.

 

[Founder]

Money hungry?

Let me explain how I, a conservative, sees healthcare.

I am 100% for the way it is now...the taxpayer (like me) pay for those without insurance to use the ER. I dont mind it as I know that if the government gets involved, it may cost me less tax wise, but it will result in bigger government...which is not what this country was founded on.

So contrary to your "money hungry" comment...I am willing to spend money to maintain the sanctity of our republic.

Sorry. Has nothing to do with my hunger for money....AT ALL.

Let's get a few things straight: Health Care is not an industry, it is at best charitable welfare, and if the government is good at anything it is good as handing out welfare.

Nor is health care a business, therefore, none of the rules that apply to business apply to health care. If every aspect of health care disappeared tomorrow the nation's economy would not suffer but rather radically improve. Health care takes, but produces nothing.

The military medical corp should be given the job of providing basic medical care for the underclass who have no insurance, and the rest of society who don't want that level of care can buy what they want on the open market where the government would play no role of any sort.

The best health care I ever had was in the military in its purely socialized medical care system.

We are spending way, way, too much on medical care in this country, and it should be reduced by at least 80 percent.

The cost of health care alone is destroying the country. It went from 2 percent of GDP in 1950 to close to 20% today, and heading to 100%. This is insane.

Legal costs also went from 2% to 20% today, and headed also to 100% of GDP.

We need to knock both these criminal rackets in head with a hammer to stop them ripping off the nation. They are two totally worthless parasites on the nation.

Now scream....

This affirms your idiocy

Health Care is indeed an industry... it is an industry of risk mitigation and calculated gambles resulting in slim profit margins.... what next are you going to tell us? Auto insurance and auto repair is not an industry??
Socialized 'health care' is social welfare....
And if you think government runs welfare 'good', there is truly no help for you... compare the multiple layers of cost associated with a simple welfare or entitlement check and compare it to a viable charitable organization... the government is horrid, inefficient, and too concerned with power to run welfare 'good'

Your level of ignorance is topped off by your claim to be 'military' and to have received 'socialized health care' in the military system.... each and every member of the military contributes and accepts health care in the benefit package for employment... not to mention that each and every person in the military, being an employee and part of a system that relies on them being a healthy and fit fighting machine for national defense, is part of a maintenance plan (for a lack of a better term)... much like up keeping a fleet or a factory full of machines that are necessary for business..
Socialized health care benefits non-contributors at the expense of contributors... it is not a benefit for employment services and is not upkeep for crucial cogs that keep the intended service running

The 'criminal racket' that needs to be worked on is the government itself, that has expanded into a monstrosity... fed by power and greed that is even greater of that of the profit seeking corporations

You don't convince at all. You are grasping, gasping, and flailing, trying to defend the indefensible. I have answered all you "points" elsewhere. Bottom line is Health Care is NOT an industry, so in the larger sense we don't even need it, but it does represent some degree of compassion, and charity, but only when done right, and that is about all. Our military might and our economic power in the world have NOTHING to do with our so-called Health Care "Industry."

 

[DiamondDave]

Let's get a few things straight: Health Care is not an industry, it is at best charitable welfare, and if the government is good at anything it is good as handing out welfare.

Nor is health care a business, therefore, none of the rules that apply to business apply to health care. If every aspect of health care disappeared tomorrow the nation's economy would not suffer but rather radically improve. Health care takes, but produces nothing.

The military medical corp should be given the job of providing basic medical care for the underclass who have no insurance, and the rest of society who don't want that level of care can buy what they want on the open market where the government would play no role of any sort.

The best health care I ever had was in the military in its purely socialized medical care system.

We are spending way, way, too much on medical care in this country, and it should be reduced by at least 80 percent.

The cost of health care alone is destroying the country. It went from 2 percent of GDP in 1950 to close to 20% today, and heading to 100%. This is insane.

Legal costs also went from 2% to 20% today, and headed also to 100% of GDP.

We need to knock both these criminal rackets in head with a hammer to stop them ripping off the nation. They are two totally worthless parasites on the nation.

Now scream....

This affirms your idiocy

Health Care is indeed an industry... it is an industry of risk mitigation and calculated gambles resulting in slim profit margins.... what next are you going to tell us? Auto insurance and auto repair is not an industry??
Socialized 'health care' is social welfare....
And if you think government runs welfare 'good', there is truly no help for you... compare the multiple layers of cost associated with a simple welfare or entitlement check and compare it to a viable charitable organization... the government is horrid, inefficient, and too concerned with power to run welfare 'good'

Your level of ignorance is topped off by your claim to be 'military' and to have received 'socialized health care' in the military system.... each and every member of the military contributes and accepts health care in the benefit package for employment... not to mention that each and every person in the military, being an employee and part of a system that relies on them being a healthy and fit fighting machine for national defense, is part of a maintenance plan (for a lack of a better term)... much like up keeping a fleet or a factory full of machines that are necessary for business..
Socialized health care benefits non-contributors at the expense of contributors... it is not a benefit for employment services and is not upkeep for crucial cogs that keep the intended service running

The 'criminal racket' that needs to be worked on is the government itself, that has expanded into a monstrosity... fed by power and greed that is even greater of that of the profit seeking corporations

You don't convince at all. You are grasping, gasping, and flailing, trying to defend the indefensible. I have answered all you "points" elsewhere. Bottom line is Health Care is NOT an industry, so in the larger sense we don't even need it, but it does represent some degree of compassion, and charity, but only when done right, and that is about all. Our military might and our economic power in the world have NOTHING to do with our so-called Health Care "Industry."

Spouting off meaningless bullshit is not 'answering' any points... no matter how much you repeat your inane bull, it does not make it truth

Bottom line.. health care is indeed an industry... born out of a demand for services rendered by medical doctors and staff, institutions and companies that provide a place for service, research firms and manufacturing firms to build the equipment that is in demand and to supply the raw materials needed

you are some doe eyed, indoctrinated, entitlement junkie with a complete ignorance of industry.. or you are a hyper-partisan troll.. or you are simply a complete idiot with no grasp of reality.. the challenge now is to figure out which it is or if it is a combination of 2 or more of those options

 

[☭proletarian☭]

First, Insurance is not an industry. An industry is something that makes something someone will willingly pay for that is IN THE PUBLIC INTEREST.

• S: (n) industry (the people or companies engaged in a particular kind of commercial enterprise) "each industry has its own trade publications"
• S: (n) industry, manufacture (the organized action of making of goods and services for sale) "American industry is making increased use of computers to control production"
• S: (n) diligence, industriousness, industry (persevering determination to perform a task) "his diligence won him quick promotions"; "frugality and industry are still regarded as

Says nothing about the public interest.

You get an F on today's English test.

That said, insurance to the extent it is allowed

'To the extent it should be allowed'? You have an argument for ding away with insurance?

Of course, even if you hadn't been proven wrong, there's a case to be made that an industry that serves to ensure the health and wellbeing of the health by insuring their medical care does, in fact, serve the public interest.


Moron.

We have to be careful about allowing self defined "industries" to grow up like cancers on society that are fundamentally NOT in the public interest. For example, "industries" based on gambling, addictive substances like alcohol, tobacco, drugs of all sorts, including prescription, and pay for play "sports", and banking to name just a few pests that are way, way out of control and harming families and the national interest.

You're an idiot. The NFL is a danger to the public good?

An industry is something that makes things the public actually needs like shoes, coats, cars and so forth

The dictionaries disagree.

. If we have a brain

If? So that's your problem...

 

[boedicca]

HEALTH CARE IS NOT AN INDUSTRY AND NEVER HAS BEEN IN THE HISTORY OF THE WORLD AND SHOULD NEVER BE. IT IS LIKE BETTING ON THE LOSING LAME HORSE IN EVERY RACE. IT IS A TOTAL LOSER IN EVERY SENSE EXCEPT AS A CHARITABLE COMPASSION THING.

Repeating nonsense in all caps doesn't make it any less nonsensical or any more convincing.

Just sayin'.

 

[Oldandtired]

HEALTH CARE IS NOT AN INDUSTRY AND NEVER HAS BEEN IN THE HISTORY OF THE WORLD AND SHOULD NEVER BE. IT IS LIKE BETTING ON THE LOSING LAME HORSE IN EVERY RACE. IT IS A TOTAL LOSER IN EVERY SENSE EXCEPT AS A CHARITABLE COMPASSION THING.

Repeating nonsense in all caps doesn't make it any less nonsensical or any more convincing.

Just sayin'.

HEALTH CARE IS NOT AN INDUSTRY AND NEVER HAS BEEN IN THE HISTORY OF THE WORLD AND SHOULD NEVER BE. IT IS LIKE BETTING ON THE LOSING LAME HORSE IN EVERY RACE. IT IS A TOTAL LOSER IN EVERY SENSE EXCEPT AS A CHARITABLE COMPASSION THING.

Had to try ity. You are correct. It doesnt look any more sensical or convincing by putting it in caps. If anything, it makes it look even less rational than it already is...which isnt saying much.

 

[boedicca]

Shouting is usually a poor way to communicate - unless one is trying to clear out a burning movie theater.

In the case of health care, it is the arsonists trying to destroy health care who are shouting in a desperate attempt to look like rescuers. They are not fooling the majority of American.s

 

[Oldandtired]

Shouting is usually a poor way to communicate - unless one is trying to clear out a burning movie theater.

In the case of health care, it is the arsonists trying to destroy health care who are shouting in a desperate attempt to look like rescuers. They are not fooling the majority of American.s

Yeah...but I am struggling with the moral issue ....

My son had to buy his own insurance for the first time....he is 24....

What if he were like my nephew....who survived lukemia when he was 8 years old?

What would he have done when my policy dropped him?

What will my nephew do in 6 years when his parents policy drops him due to age?

 

[boedicca]

Yeah...but I am struggling with the moral issue ....

My son had to buy his own insurance for the first time....he is 24....

What if he were like my nephew....who survived lukemia when he was 8 years old?

What would he have done when my policy dropped him?

What will my nephew do in 6 years when his parents policy drops him due to age?

If one has evidence of prior/continuous coverage (at least in CA), then employer provided insurance must cover the person. One problem is the coupling of employment and health insurance. If this provision applied to individuals and we had a real market for individual policies, then this issue could be more easily resolved.

 

[Oldandtired]

Yeah...but I am struggling with the moral issue ....

My son had to buy his own insurance for the first time....he is 24....

What if he were like my nephew....who survived lukemia when he was 8 years old?

What would he have done when my policy dropped him?

What will my nephew do in 6 years when his parents policy drops him due to age?

If one has evidence of prior/continuous coverage (at least in CA), then employer provided insurance must cover the person. One problem is the coupling of employment and health insurance. If this provision applied to individuals and we had a real market for individual policies, then this issue could be more easily resolved.

My son graduated and started his own company (proud papa.....he is doing well (knock wood)).....what would he have done if he had been his cousin?

It is an issue that needs to be addresses with honesty by both sides. Instead it is spin and dodge from both sides.....and I have pretty much had enough of it.

 

[boedicca]

I doubt ObamaCare is the right answer.

 

[Oldandtired]

I doubt ObamaCare is the right answer.

I am not looking for "what is not the answer"...I am looking foir the answer.

I guess I am looking for a congress that does not lie.

I am also looking for a bridge for sale. Know of any?

 

[☭proletarian☭]

I doubt ObamaCare is the right answer.

I am not looking for "what is not the answer"...I am looking foir the answer.

Local/state-run clinics and referral programs to provide free and low-cost checkups and routine healthcare for the working poor (one possibility is working with medical schools; students in need of real-world experience can work at the clinics for credit and training, supervised by a physician to ensure quality care), denying any medical care to those known to be illegal aliens, and improving the economy overall so that we can afford to invest in such programs.

 

[Founder]

HEALTH CARE IS NOT AN INDUSTRY AND NEVER HAS BEEN IN THE HISTORY OF THE WORLD AND SHOULD NEVER BE. IT IS LIKE BETTING ON THE LOSING LAME HORSE IN EVERY RACE. IT IS A TOTAL LOSER IN EVERY SENSE EXCEPT AS A CHARITABLE COMPASSION THING.

Repeating nonsense in all caps doesn't make it any less nonsensical or any more convincing.

Just sayin'.

HEALTH CARE IS NOT AN INDUSTRY AND NEVER HAS BEEN IN THE HISTORY OF THE WORLD AND SHOULD NEVER BE. IT IS LIKE BETTING ON THE LOSING LAME HORSE IN EVERY RACE. IT IS A TOTAL LOSER IN EVERY SENSE EXCEPT AS A CHARITABLE COMPASSION THING.

Had to try ity. You are correct. It doesnt look any more sensical or convincing by putting it in caps. If anything, it makes it look even less rational than it already is...which isnt saying much.

My bad, no more caps, I promise. I usually don't do that, but people are so dense. I is not that they disagree with you, it is that they don't even understand what you are saying. That gets frustrating. It is like reading Shakespeare to a dog, and expecting him to understand.