Comparing the AR with other Legal Firearms

[Vrenn]

Yes, ban the AR-15 and people will use another gun. That is exactly WHY we need to ban them. And yes, it is not rocket science, the damage inflicted by the AR-15 is absolutely devastating. I have mentioned the word more than once in this thread, "cavitation".

What I Saw Treating the Victims From Parkland Should Change the Debate on Guns

They weren’t the first mass-shooting victims the Florida radiologist saw—but their wounds were radically different.

www.theatlantic.com

Routine handgun injuries leave entry and exit wounds and linear tracks through the victim’s body that are roughly the size of the bullet. If the bullet does not directly hit something crucial like the heart or the aorta, and the victim does not bleed to death before being transported to our care at the trauma center, chances are that we can save him. The bullets fired by an AR-15 are different: They travel at a higher velocity and are far more lethal than routine bullets fired from a handgun. The damage they cause is a function of the energy they impart as they pass through the body. A typical AR-15 bullet leaves the barrel traveling almost three times faster than—and imparting more than three times the energy of—a typical 9mm bullet from a handgun.

This thread is at almost 500 posts. I jumped in early. The debate, or the "question" is really very simple. Does the AR-15, and its assault rifle variants, provide any unique, UNIQUE meaning can't be replicated by another gun, advantage in any area--self-defense, hunting, target shooting, that outweighs the DAMAGE caused by AR-15 used in mass shootings?

This ain't about stopping mass shootings. This ain't about stopping gun crimes. This is about improving the odds of survival of a victim of a mass shooting, PERIOD.

I was looking at a CT scan of one of the mass-shooting victims from Marjory Stoneman Douglas High School, who had been brought to the trauma center during my call shift. The organ looked like an overripe melon smashed by a sledgehammer, and was bleeding extensively. How could a gunshot wound have caused this much damage?

The reaction in the emergency room was the same. One of the trauma surgeons opened a young victim in the operating room, and found only shreds of the organ that had been hit by a bullet from an AR-15, a semiautomatic rifle that delivers a devastatingly lethal, high-velocity bullet to the victim. Nothing was left to repair—and utterly, devastatingly, nothing could be done to fix the problem. The injury was fatal.

Not a single poster has even attempted to make the argument. No one has listed a single unique advantage of the AR-15. Instead, all we get is worthless blathering about the second amendment as if it some magic amendment that precludes the banning of a single type of weapon, it is not, and Scalia in Heller said as much. All we get is the slippery slope argument, oh, they ban the AR-15 it will just be a beginning. No, that was not the case in the previous ban, nor will it be this time. Or my personal favorite, a ban would be ineffective because there are so many AR's already in the hands of gun owners. So what?

Here is the deal, if we ban the AR-15, ban assault rifles just like we did before, with the same definition of an assault rifle that we had before. Then, just like in the past, if just one mass shooter has to purchase a Glock, instead of an AR, to use in his murderous spree, more people will survive his shooting spree than would survive if he used an AR. Columbine resulted in 13 deaths, not counting the shooters themselves. But an additional 21 people were shot and injured. That is a better than 60% survival rate. In the Stoneman Douglas shooting there were 17 killed and 17 injured, a 50% survival rate, and 12 of the deaths occurred inside the building. And that was ONE person, not two. Although few people know, two of those survivors committed suicide within 13 months, which brings us to a 45% survival rate.

But there is one UNIQUE advantage of the AR-15 and other assault rifles. They are, by far, the most profitable gun sold in America. You gun nuts all screaming and hollering against an assault weapons ban are little more than useful idiots for the gun lobby. They play all of you for fools, hell, they are the ones that teach you how to make these illogical arguments, how to avoid the real "question" that I have put forth. And while at least ten percent of the deaths in mass shootings are directly attributable to that gun lobby, you guys are enabling them.

Don't ban, regulate. Banning won't stand up in court but regulating will because that's the traditional way of handling it.

 

[Bell Huey]

Jesus Christ, these people are idiots.

 

[Vrenn]

No, the history clearly shows the Colt Ar 15 or it’s knock offs and was not designed for battle.
Listen to what you just posted. And if they can’t get an AR 15, you think they they’re gonna stop?

It was designed for the battle field. It's first firefight was in Maylasia during a civil war there in 1959.

The idea isn't to completely stop the high body count shootings. It's minimize the body count of those same High Body Count shootings.

 

[Bell Huey]

Don't ban, regulate. Banning won't stand up in court but regulating will because that's the traditional way of handling it.

You want to regulate based on appearance. You will end up with these:

 

[Vrenn]

You want to regulate based on appearance. You will end up with these:

View attachment 776940

So you still want to be dishonest. So be it. But I want to see the AR and it's family regulated like the Thompson M1921.

 

[Winston]

However, more importantly, you could use it for the security of a free state, as is proscribed in the Constitution.

That is about the stupidest thing anyone has ever posted. The whole "insurrection" argument. Really, that is why the founders created the second amendment? Then WTF is this,

Treason against the United States, shall consist only in levying War against them, or in adhering to their Enemies, giving them Aid and Comfort. No Person shall be convicted of Treason unless on the Testimony of two Witnesses to the same overt Act, or on Confession in open Court.

Seriously, anyone that makes the insurrection argument about the second amendment has no clue as to US history. The only purpose of the second amendment was to enable a militia to be formed instead of having a standing army. The founders had little to no fear of a despotic government forming, hell, they wrote that whole Constitution thing to prevent that from happening. What they did fear was a standing army, and they incorporated protections against that in that same Constitution.

 

[Bell Huey]

It was designed for the battle field. It's first firefight was in Maylasia during a civil war there in 1959.

The idea isn't to completely stop the high body count shootings. It's minimize the body count of those same High Body Count shootings.

The Colt Ar 15 Sporter wasn’t. If you had read what I provided it wasn’t certified until Dec 1963.
What was sold to Malaysia was the Armalite Version Which became the M 16.

 

[Bell Huey]

So you still want to be dishonest. So be it. But I want to see the AR and its family regulated like the Thompson M1921.

According to the ATF it is not a machine gun. If you want to talk about honesty.

 

[Winston]

The shooter will just use pistols.

Good.

 

[Bell Huey]

It was designed for the battle field. It's first firefight was in Maylasia during a civil war there in 1959.

The idea isn't to completely stop the high body count shootings. It's minimize the body count of those same High Body Count shootings.

This is how I know you are ignorant. You are conflating what became the M 16 with the semi automatic Colt AR 15 Sporter.
Game. Set. Match.

 

[Blues Man]

Yes, ban the AR-15 and people will use another gun. That is exactly WHY we need to ban them. And yes, it is not rocket science, the damage inflicted by the AR-15 is absolutely devastating. I have mentioned the word more than once in this thread, "cavitation".

What I Saw Treating the Victims From Parkland Should Change the Debate on Guns

They weren’t the first mass-shooting victims the Florida radiologist saw—but their wounds were radically different.

www.theatlantic.com

Routine handgun injuries leave entry and exit wounds and linear tracks through the victim’s body that are roughly the size of the bullet. If the bullet does not directly hit something crucial like the heart or the aorta, and the victim does not bleed to death before being transported to our care at the trauma center, chances are that we can save him. The bullets fired by an AR-15 are different: They travel at a higher velocity and are far more lethal than routine bullets fired from a handgun. The damage they cause is a function of the energy they impart as they pass through the body. A typical AR-15 bullet leaves the barrel traveling almost three times faster than—and imparting more than three times the energy of—a typical 9mm bullet from a handgun.

This thread is at almost 500 posts. I jumped in early. The debate, or the "question" is really very simple. Does the AR-15, and its assault rifle variants, provide any unique, UNIQUE meaning can't be replicated by another gun, advantage in any area--self-defense, hunting, target shooting, that outweighs the DAMAGE caused by AR-15 used in mass shootings?

This ain't about stopping mass shootings. This ain't about stopping gun crimes. This is about improving the odds of survival of a victim of a mass shooting, PERIOD.

I was looking at a CT scan of one of the mass-shooting victims from Marjory Stoneman Douglas High School, who had been brought to the trauma center during my call shift. The organ looked like an overripe melon smashed by a sledgehammer, and was bleeding extensively. How could a gunshot wound have caused this much damage?

The reaction in the emergency room was the same. One of the trauma surgeons opened a young victim in the operating room, and found only shreds of the organ that had been hit by a bullet from an AR-15, a semiautomatic rifle that delivers a devastatingly lethal, high-velocity bullet to the victim. Nothing was left to repair—and utterly, devastatingly, nothing could be done to fix the problem. The injury was fatal.

Not a single poster has even attempted to make the argument. No one has listed a single unique advantage of the AR-15. Instead, all we get is worthless blathering about the second amendment as if it some magic amendment that precludes the banning of a single type of weapon, it is not, and Scalia in Heller said as much. All we get is the slippery slope argument, oh, they ban the AR-15 it will just be a beginning. No, that was not the case in the previous ban, nor will it be this time. Or my personal favorite, a ban would be ineffective because there are so many AR's already in the hands of gun owners. So what?

Here is the deal, if we ban the AR-15, ban assault rifles just like we did before, with the same definition of an assault rifle that we had before. Then, just like in the past, if just one mass shooter has to purchase a Glock, instead of an AR, to use in his murderous spree, more people will survive his shooting spree than would survive if he used an AR. Columbine resulted in 13 deaths, not counting the shooters themselves. But an additional 21 people were shot and injured. That is a better than 60% survival rate. In the Stoneman Douglas shooting there were 17 killed and 17 injured, a 50% survival rate, and 12 of the deaths occurred inside the building. And that was ONE person, not two. Although few people know, two of those survivors committed suicide within 13 months, which brings us to a 45% survival rate.

But there is one UNIQUE advantage of the AR-15 and other assault rifles. They are, by far, the most profitable gun sold in America. You gun nuts all screaming and hollering against an assault weapons ban are little more than useful idiots for the gun lobby. They play all of you for fools, hell, they are the ones that teach you how to make these illogical arguments, how to avoid the real "question" that I have put forth. And while at least ten percent of the deaths in mass shootings are directly attributable to that gun lobby, you guys are enabling them.

Any gun that fires the same round will do the same damage.

And I'm not a gun nut in any sense of the word. I do not own an AR type rifle. I prefer handguns or a shotgun over any rifle I own for a self or home defense situation.

So you people all say you want to ban only the scary black rifles when it will do nothing to stop anyone hell bent on shooting up a school with the exact same ammunition.

Locked steel doors at schools will actually stop more school shootings than banning a rifle.

 

[80zephyr]

Once more, you just tell part of the story and leave out the rest. Yes, the handgun leads in the number of single attempts but the AR, per shooting, holds the absolute body count short of a truck bomb.

And if AR's were banned?

 

[Bell Huey]

And if AR's were banned?

He claims he doesn’t want them banned. He wants them regulated like NFA firearms. Like auotmatic weapons. Which makes no sense.

 

[Winston]

Any gun that fires the same round will do the same damage.

And I'm not a gun nut in any sense of the word. I do not own an AR type rifle. I prefer my handguns and shotguns over any rifle I own for a self or home defense situation.

So you people all say you want to ban only the scary black rifles when it will do nothing to stop anyone hell bent on shooting up a school with the exact same ammunition.

Locked steel doors at schools will actually stop more school shootings than banning a rifle.

You are wrong. The damage is not caused by the caliber, it is caused by the velocity. At almost 3,000 fps a .223 round fired from an AR-15 is going to do much more damage than the same round fired from a rifle at a little over 1,000 fps.

 

[Winston]

And if AR's were banned?

Survivability increases significantly, how hard is that to understand?

 

[Bell Huey]

So you still want to be dishonest. So be it. But I want to see the AR and it's family regulated like the Thompson M1921.

Below is how congress defines an assault weapon. notice There is nothing about function, velocity, ammo, internal design, etc with the exception of say bump sto is.

“(ii) has any 1 of the following:
“(I) A pistol grip.
“(II) A forward grip.
“(III) A folding, telescoping, or detachable stock, or a stock that is otherwise foldable or adjustable in a manner that operates to reduce the length, size, or any other dimension, or otherwise enhances the concealability, of the weapon.
“(IV) A grenade launcher.
“(V) A barrel shroud.
“(VI) A threaded barrel.
“(B) A semiautomatic rifle that has a fixed ammunition feeding device with the capacity to accept more than 15 rounds, except for an attached tubular device designed to accept, and capable of operating only with, .22 caliber rimfire ammunition.
“(C) Any part, combination of parts, component, device, attachment, or accessory that is designed or functions to accelerate the rate of fire of a semiautomatic firearm but not convert the semiautomatic firearm into a machinegun.

Text - H.R.1808 - 117th Congress (2021-2022): Assault Weapons Ban of 2022

Text for H.R.1808 - 117th Congress (2021-2022): Assault Weapons Ban of 2022

www.congress.gov

 

[Bell Huey]

You are wrong. The damage is not caused by the caliber, it is caused by the velocity. At almost 3,000 fps a .223 round fired from an AR-15 is going to do much more damage than the same round fired from a rifle at a little over 1,000 fps.

Many rifles have the same or higher.

Rifle Ballistics Summary

 

[Bell Huey]

Survivability increases significantly, how hard is that to understand?

Really? 32 dead from handguns in the 2007 Va Tech mass shooting.

 

[Vrenn]

The Colt Ar 15 Sporter wasn’t. If you had read what I provided it wasn’t certified until Dec 1963.
What was sold to Malaysia was the Armalite Version Which became the M 16.

It also became the AR-15 model 750 which is what almost all ARs are copies of. Colt just saw a way of legally getting a ton of sales out of their already successful product. It's called Marketing.

 

[80zephyr]

Good.

Really? In the mass shootings from 1982 to 2020, 156 were by handgun, 86 by rifle, and 30 by shotgun.