Comparing Rich with Poor: Moral Bankruptcy

[Samson]

Thomas Sowell has done exhaustive research on the segregated inner NYC school he attended in the 1940's and the 'all white' school located a few blocks away. The records indicated that in some years the 'black' school performed slightly better in the core subjects of math, reading, science etc. and in some years the 'white' school did slightly better, but overall the two were definitely on a par with each other. And he is adament that in both schools the kids got an education that prepared them to be able to compete with anybody.

In a recent column he cites a different comparison--allowing the kids from a poor inner city school to compare their circumstances with rich kids attending a private school charging $43k in annual tuition. And how demoralizing that has been for the poorer kids and how much it is taking away from basic education in those core subjects.

What do you think? Is he right in his perception of the negative effect it is having on the poor kids? That is is shortchanging their eduction more than ever? Or do you think he is exaggerating the negatives and this experiment in multiculturalism is more likely a good thing?

Here is his column published earlier this month:
Thomas Sowell: Moral Bankruptcy

I think the communities would have been better served to take the rich kids and have them spend the day in the poor school.

Well, they may have.

The link from the OP is Sowell's OPINION about the program. He doesn't give any exaustive description to help us understand much about it. He does mention that:

They go to a big park in the Bronx together and take part in a garden project there.

Horrifying!!! Classes mixing together....in a PARK!!



Another Sign of Apocolypse!!!

 

[jasonnfree]

Last I looked, everybody had the exact same "opportunity" to create Facebook, invent the light-bulb, start their own business, or write a book that sells a million copies.. Failure to do so is not a lack of opportunity, economic status, or anything else.

What a simple way to look at things. Is it empowering?

Yes.
Maybe instead of sniveling about "opportunity" you should seize the opportunity. You might feel empowered. Simple solutions are usually the best solutions.

.....Opportunities are everywhere.
He could find a place to build a baseball stadium. Have some property eminent domained, pay less than what the value of the property is and get heavy subsidies from taxpayers. From rags to riches, gw bush. Another success story for you right wing lickspittles to drool over.

 

[alan1]

It's a real shame that some didn't do even that. If they had they would know that is not all I said.

You said.....and said again...that a poor person can do something to get out of poverty regardless of his or her circumstances and without being presented with an opportunity. Simply by somehow "educating himself", working hard at some readily available job, and not making any mistakes.

That is bullshit. It is a romantic ideal that we all find so appealing. But it is not reality. It is not the norm.

Millions of poor people do everything within their power to improve their lot in life. It usually works to some small degree.....BUT NOT ENOUGH TO GET SOLIDLY INTO THE MIDDLE CLASS!!

The opportunities are not there?

Then why are 10 million Mexicans in the USA illigally?

Because the Vietnamese boat people need somebody to mow their yards, paint their houses and work in the restaurant.

The opportunities ARE NOT THERE in quantity nor in degree.

My friend Xuan arrived in the USA as a Viet Nam refugee. He didn't speak English. He had only the clothes on his back, a wife and three children when he arrived. He was missing most of his left left leg.
He also had no opportunity, which is why he now owns a beauty salon. His three kids also had no opportunity because they came from a poor family. His eldest son is an OB/GYN doctor with a private practice. His daughter is a divorce attorney, also her own practice. His youngest son is a franchisee owner of five Burger King restaurants in the city.
Imagine what they could have accomplished if they actually had opportunity.

 

[Samson]

You said.....and said again...that a poor person can do something to get out of poverty regardless of his or her circumstances and without being presented with an opportunity. Simply by somehow "educating himself", working hard at some readily available job, and not making any mistakes.

That is bullshit. It is a romantic ideal that we all find so appealing. But it is not reality. It is not the norm.

Millions of poor people do everything within their power to improve their lot in life. It usually works to some small degree.....BUT NOT ENOUGH TO GET SOLIDLY INTO THE MIDDLE CLASS!!

The opportunities are not there?

Then why are 10 million Mexicans in the USA illigally?

Because the Vietnamese boat people need somebody to mow their yards, paint their houses and work in the restaurant.

The opportunities ARE NOT THERE in quantity nor in degree.

My friend Xuan arrived in the USA as a Viet Nam refugee. He didn't speak English. He had only the clothes on his back, a wife and three children when he arrived. He was missing most of his left left leg.
He also had no opportunity, which is why he now owns a beauty salon. His three kids also had no opportunity because they came from a poor family. His eldest son is an OB/GYN doctor with a private practice. His daughter is a divorce attorney, also her own practice. His youngest son is a franchisee owner of five Burger King restaurants in the city.
Imagine what they could have accomplished if they actually had opportunity.

I'm astonished they could recover from the shock of seeing all the wealth in the USA, then, realizing that they were poor, sinking into a deep depression from which they'd never recover according to Sowell.

 

[alan1]

The opportunities are not there?

Then why are 10 million Mexicans in the USA illigally?

Because the Vietnamese boat people need somebody to mow their yards, paint their houses and work in the restaurant.

The opportunities ARE NOT THERE in quantity nor in degree.

My friend Xuan arrived in the USA as a Viet Nam refugee. He didn't speak English. He had only the clothes on his back, a wife and three children when he arrived. He was missing most of his left left leg.
He also had no opportunity, which is why he now owns a beauty salon. His three kids also had no opportunity because they came from a poor family. His eldest son is an OB/GYN doctor with a private practice. His daughter is a divorce attorney, also her own practice. His youngest son is a franchisee owner of five Burger King restaurants in the city.
Imagine what they could have accomplished if they actually had opportunity.

I'm astonished they could recover from the shock of seeing all the wealth in the USA, then, realizing that they were poor, sinking into a deep depression from which they'd never recover according to Sowell.

I'm guessing that they weren't subject to feel good educational practices that serve no purpose.

 

[Samson]

Because the Vietnamese boat people need somebody to mow their yards, paint their houses and work in the restaurant.

My friend Xuan arrived in the USA as a Viet Nam refugee. He didn't speak English. He had only the clothes on his back, a wife and three children when he arrived. He was missing most of his left left leg.
He also had no opportunity, which is why he now owns a beauty salon. His three kids also had no opportunity because they came from a poor family. His eldest son is an OB/GYN doctor with a private practice. His daughter is a divorce attorney, also her own practice. His youngest son is a franchisee owner of five Burger King restaurants in the city.
Imagine what they could have accomplished if they actually had opportunity.

I'm astonished they could recover from the shock of seeing all the wealth in the USA, then, realizing that they were poor, sinking into a deep depression from which they'd never recover according to Sowell.

I'm guessing that they weren't subject to feel good educational practices that serve no purpose.

Dodged that bullet......Yep, I'm certain that going to a park with kids wealthier than themselves would have been practically fatal to any chance they may have had to succeed.

 

[Againsheila]

I disagree about that. I don't think he has a very optimistic message at all. I don't think enough people speak the more realistic truth--if you work your ass off, you will probably do a little better than your parents and that is good enough. Too many people paint these pie in the sky pictures of what hard work brings, setting people up for disappointment. Even if he had overcome great barriers, he is still a statistical outlier, and people should stop pretending that everybody can have the success he has, or a rap star has, or a pro athlete has.

It all comes down to OPPORTUNITY. Hard work is great. But without opportunity, it is not going to lift a family out of poverty.

If hard work created opportunity........we'd have very few poor people in this nation. This is a hard working nation.

Last I looked, everybody had the exact same "opportunity" to create Facebook, invent the light-bulb, start their own business, or write a book that sells a million copies.. Failure to do so is not a lack of opportunity, economic status, or anything else.

Yeah, right. It's just a coincidence that Gates came from an upper middleclass family. Really, he's a rags to riches story. They all are.

 

[Foxfyre]

The opportunities are not there?

Then why are 10 million Mexicans in the USA illigally?

Because the Vietnamese boat people need somebody to mow their yards, paint their houses and work in the restaurant.

The opportunities ARE NOT THERE in quantity nor in degree.

My friend Xuan arrived in the USA as a Viet Nam refugee. He didn't speak English. He had only the clothes on his back, a wife and three children when he arrived. He was missing most of his left left leg.
He also had no opportunity, which is why he now owns a beauty salon. His three kids also had no opportunity because they came from a poor family. His eldest son is an OB/GYN doctor with a private practice. His daughter is a divorce attorney, also her own practice. His youngest son is a franchisee owner of five Burger King restaurants in the city.
Imagine what they could have accomplished if they actually had opportunity.

I'm astonished they could recover from the shock of seeing all the wealth in the USA, then, realizing that they were poor, sinking into a deep depression from which they'd never recover according to Sowell.

Except that Sowell didn't say anything remotely like that did he. You didn't read his essay did you.

 

[Foxfyre]

You said.....and said again...that a poor person can do something to get out of poverty regardless of his or her circumstances and without being presented with an opportunity. Simply by somehow "educating himself", working hard at some readily available job, and not making any mistakes.

That is bullshit. It is a romantic ideal that we all find so appealing. But it is not reality. It is not the norm.

Millions of poor people do everything within their power to improve their lot in life. It usually works to some small degree.....BUT NOT ENOUGH TO GET SOLIDLY INTO THE MIDDLE CLASS!!

The opportunities are not there?

Then why are 10 million Mexicans in the USA illigally?

Because the Vietnamese boat people need somebody to mow their yards, paint their houses and work in the restaurant.

The opportunities ARE NOT THERE in quantity nor in degree.

My friend Xuan arrived in the USA as a Viet Nam refugee. He didn't speak English. He had only the clothes on his back, a wife and three children when he arrived. He was missing most of his left left leg.
He also had no opportunity, which is why he now owns a beauty salon. His three kids also had no opportunity because they came from a poor family. His eldest son is an OB/GYN doctor with a private practice. His daughter is a divorce attorney, also her own practice. His youngest son is a franchisee owner of five Burger King restaurants in the city.
Imagine what they could have accomplished if they actually had opportunity.

When I was the administrator of a church in West Texas many years ago, we adopted a refugee family who had managed to escape from Castro's Cuba. When we met them at the airport in Amarillo, Juan, his wife, and his elementary age son and daughter spoke no English at all. They had only a few dollars in pocket change and their combined possessions fit into one small suitcase. But with our pastor's French and my very limited Santa Fe street Spanish plus English/Spanish dictionaries we were able to communicate well enough for Juan to become the church janitor earning minimum wage. We found them a small modest apartment and with some donated items from the church members, they set up housekeeping. We located a Mexican family in the area who provided translation services for us for awhile.

Juan and the Mrs. worked very hard with us to learn the language and the ropes of being American. Volunteer tutors, including the Mexican family, worked with the kids to help them get established and caught up. Within a year all were speaking, reading, and writing passable English, enough to get by, and within two years all were entirely fluent in the language and the adults were attending night and weekend college classes.

Juan and his wife went on to buy a small interest in an appliance business and eventually bought out their partners and became sole owners prospering way more than my hubby and I ever prospered. Both their kids graduated college with honors and one now is a high level executive in a large firm and one is a tenured college professor.

It is too bad they didn't have any chance to succeed because of their circumstances.

 

[Samson]

Because the Vietnamese boat people need somebody to mow their yards, paint their houses and work in the restaurant.

My friend Xuan arrived in the USA as a Viet Nam refugee. He didn't speak English. He had only the clothes on his back, a wife and three children when he arrived. He was missing most of his left left leg.
He also had no opportunity, which is why he now owns a beauty salon. His three kids also had no opportunity because they came from a poor family. His eldest son is an OB/GYN doctor with a private practice. His daughter is a divorce attorney, also her own practice. His youngest son is a franchisee owner of five Burger King restaurants in the city.
Imagine what they could have accomplished if they actually had opportunity.

I'm astonished they could recover from the shock of seeing all the wealth in the USA, then, realizing that they were poor, sinking into a deep depression from which they'd never recover according to Sowell.

Except that Sowell didn't say anything remotely like that did he. You didn't read his essay did you.

Perhaps YOU didn't read the essay:

These young people do not yet have enough experience to know that posh surroundings are neither necessary nor sufficient for a good education. Is anyone foolish enough to think that making poor kids feel disheartened is doing them a favor?

And the outrage continues as he cherry picks:

When the low-income youngsters visited the posh private school, "they were just overwhelmed" by it, according to the New York Times. "One kid ran crying off campus." Apparently others felt "so disheartened about their own circumstances."

 

[Foxfyre]

I'm astonished they could recover from the shock of seeing all the wealth in the USA, then, realizing that they were poor, sinking into a deep depression from which they'd never recover according to Sowell.

Except that Sowell didn't say anything remotely like that did he. You didn't read his essay did you.

Perhaps YOU didn't read the essay:

These young people do not yet have enough experience to know that posh surroundings are neither necessary nor sufficient for a good education. Is anyone foolish enough to think that making poor kids feel disheartened is doing them a favor?

And the outrage continues as he cherry picks:

When the low-income youngsters visited the posh private school, "they were just overwhelmed" by it, according to the New York Times. "One kid ran crying off campus." Apparently others felt "so disheartened about their own circumstances."

Yes I did read it. And that says nothing even remotely as you characterized it.

 

[Samson]

Except that Sowell didn't say anything remotely like that did he. You didn't read his essay did you.

Perhaps YOU didn't read the essay:

These young people do not yet have enough experience to know that posh surroundings are neither necessary nor sufficient for a good education. Is anyone foolish enough to think that making poor kids feel disheartened is doing them a favor?

And the outrage continues as he cherry picks:

When the low-income youngsters visited the posh private school, "they were just overwhelmed" by it, according to the New York Times. "One kid ran crying off campus." Apparently others felt "so disheartened about their own circumstances."

Yes I did read it. And that says nothing even remotely as you characterized it.

You mean instead of, "depressed" I should have said, "disheartened."

I'm astonished they could recover from the shock of seeing all the wealth in the USA, then, realizing that they were poor, DISHEARTENED from which they'd never recover according to Sowell.


Gee, well played!

 

[Foxfyre]

Perhaps YOU didn't read the essay:

These young people do not yet have enough experience to know that posh surroundings are neither necessary nor sufficient for a good education. Is anyone foolish enough to think that making poor kids feel disheartened is doing them a favor?

And the outrage continues as he cherry picks:

When the low-income youngsters visited the posh private school, "they were just overwhelmed" by it, according to the New York Times. "One kid ran crying off campus." Apparently others felt "so disheartened about their own circumstances."

Yes I did read it. And that says nothing even remotely as you characterized it.

You mean instead of, "depressed" I should have said, "disheartened."

Gee, well played!

No, that is not what I meant. I'm not picking up much confidence that you are interested in understanding what I meant. And I'm not interested in taking the bait to get into a food fight over it either. So let's agree to disagree and move on, okay?

 

[Samson]

Yes I did read it. And that says nothing even remotely as you characterized it.

You mean instead of, "depressed" I should have said, "disheartened."

Gee, well played!

No, that is not what I meant. I'm not picking up much confidence that you are interested in understanding what I meant. And I'm not interested in taking the bait to get into a food fight over it either. So let's agree to disagree and move on, okay?

Clearly, I've read the article, and it seems you're convinced that Sowell's opinion within is correct, regardless of his lop-sided presentation and omission of facts. If your intent was to simply act as an echo chamber for Sowell's opinion, then I understand what you meant.

Otherwise, I agree that you haven't much of an arguement to the contrary, and happily move on.

 

[LoneLaugher]

The opportunities are not there?

Then why are 10 million Mexicans in the USA illigally?

Because the Vietnamese boat people need somebody to mow their yards, paint their houses and work in the restaurant.

The opportunities ARE NOT THERE in quantity nor in degree.

My friend Xuan arrived in the USA as a Viet Nam refugee. He didn't speak English. He had only the clothes on his back, a wife and three children when he arrived. He was missing most of his left left leg.
He also had no opportunity, which is why he now owns a beauty salon. His three kids also had no opportunity because they came from a poor family. His eldest son is an OB/GYN doctor with a private practice. His daughter is a divorce attorney, also her own practice. His youngest son is a franchisee owner of five Burger King restaurants in the city.
Imagine what they could have accomplished if they actually had opportunity.

When I was the administrator of a church in West Texas many years ago, we adopted a refugee family who had managed to escape from Castro's Cuba. When we met them at the airport in Amarillo, Juan, his wife, and his elementary age son and daughter spoke no English at all. They had only a few dollars in pocket change and their combined possessions fit into one small suitcase. But with our pastor's French and my very limited Santa Fe street Spanish plus English/Spanish dictionaries we were able to communicate well enough for Juan to become the church janitor earning minimum wage. We found them a small modest apartment and with some donated items from the church members, they set up housekeeping. We located a Mexican family in the area who provided translation services for us for awhile.

Juan and the Mrs. worked very hard with us to learn the language and the ropes of being American. Volunteer tutors, including the Mexican family, worked with the kids to help them get established and caught up. Within a year all were speaking, reading, and writing passable English, enough to get by, and within two years all were entirely fluent in the language and the adults were attending night and weekend college classes.

Juan and his wife went on to buy a small interest in an appliance business and eventually bought out their partners and became sole owners prospering way more than my hubby and I ever prospered. Both their kids graduated college with honors and one now is a high level executive in a large firm and one is a tenured college professor.

It is too bad they didn't have any chance to succeed because of their circumstances.

Juan was presented with a SHITLOAD of opportunity. He seized it. Excellent.

I would LOVE to have a discussion with both you and Juan.

 

[Againsheila]

You said.....and said again...that a poor person can do something to get out of poverty regardless of his or her circumstances and without being presented with an opportunity. Simply by somehow "educating himself", working hard at some readily available job, and not making any mistakes.

That is bullshit. It is a romantic ideal that we all find so appealing. But it is not reality. It is not the norm.

Millions of poor people do everything within their power to improve their lot in life. It usually works to some small degree.....BUT NOT ENOUGH TO GET SOLIDLY INTO THE MIDDLE CLASS!!

The opportunities are not there?

Then why are 10 million Mexicans in the USA illigally?

Because the Vietnamese boat people need somebody to mow their yards, paint their houses and work in the restaurant.

The opportunities ARE NOT THERE in quantity nor in degree.

My friend Xuan arrived in the USA as a Viet Nam refugee. He didn't speak English. He had only the clothes on his back, a wife and three children when he arrived. He was missing most of his left left leg.
He also had no opportunity, which is why he now owns a beauty salon. His three kids also had no opportunity because they came from a poor family. His eldest son is an OB/GYN doctor with a private practice. His daughter is a divorce attorney, also her own practice. His youngest son is a franchisee owner of five Burger King restaurants in the city.
Imagine what they could have accomplished if they actually had opportunity.

If the government offered the same programs to American citizens they do to immigrants, things would be better. What other country provides more benefits for it's immigrants than it does for it's own people?

 

[alan1]

It all comes down to OPPORTUNITY. Hard work is great. But without opportunity, it is not going to lift a family out of poverty.

If hard work created opportunity........we'd have very few poor people in this nation. This is a hard working nation.

Last I looked, everybody had the exact same "opportunity" to create Facebook, invent the light-bulb, start their own business, or write a book that sells a million copies.. Failure to do so is not a lack of opportunity, economic status, or anything else.

Yeah, right. It's just a coincidence that Gates came from an upper middleclass family. Really, he's a rags to riches story. They all are.

Funny, I didn't mention Bill Gates.
Guess who the author was that I referred to.

 

[alan1]

I'm astonished they could recover from the shock of seeing all the wealth in the USA, then, realizing that they were poor, sinking into a deep depression from which they'd never recover according to Sowell.

Except that Sowell didn't say anything remotely like that did he. You didn't read his essay did you.

Perhaps YOU didn't read the essay:

These young people do not yet have enough experience to know that posh surroundings are neither necessary nor sufficient for a good education. Is anyone foolish enough to think that making poor kids feel disheartened is doing them a favor?

And the outrage continues as he cherry picks:

When the low-income youngsters visited the posh private school, "they were just overwhelmed" by it, according to the New York Times. "One kid ran crying off campus." Apparently others felt "so disheartened about their own circumstances."

I'm usually not impressed or influenced by the opinion of writers for the New York Times.
Color me cynical.

 

[alan1]

The opportunities are not there?

Then why are 10 million Mexicans in the USA illigally?

Because the Vietnamese boat people need somebody to mow their yards, paint their houses and work in the restaurant.

The opportunities ARE NOT THERE in quantity nor in degree.

My friend Xuan arrived in the USA as a Viet Nam refugee. He didn't speak English. He had only the clothes on his back, a wife and three children when he arrived. He was missing most of his left left leg.
He also had no opportunity, which is why he now owns a beauty salon. His three kids also had no opportunity because they came from a poor family. His eldest son is an OB/GYN doctor with a private practice. His daughter is a divorce attorney, also her own practice. His youngest son is a franchisee owner of five Burger King restaurants in the city.
Imagine what they could have accomplished if they actually had opportunity.

If the government offered the same programs to American citizens they do to immigrants, things would be better. What other country provides more benefits for it's immigrants than it does for it's own people?

Last I looked natural born USA citizens actually have better opportunities than people like Xuan. Simply speaking the native language gives us an advantage at the start.

 

[DGS49]

The accurate picture can be gleaned from tracking people over their "working" lives. Most people have been in the infamous "bottom quintile" at some point, and have worked their way up to the middle or higher. I'm speaking now of people who have what used to be called, "middle-class values," and believe in education, hard work, and personal responsibility. The examples are countless.

But we also have, as DPMoynihan pointed out, "The Underclass," which scorns middle-class values, looks to government and charity for its needs, and sees wealth as something to be resented rather than aspired to.

Them folks ain't goin' nowhere, are they?