Zone1 Coming to know God

[Meriweather]

That reason should be obvious to Christians too. Christians don't believe in any more than one of them. I just went one sky fairy further.

As a child, what delighted me about learning the truth about Santa Claus, the Easter Bunny, and the Tooth Fairy was the realization that adults not only retained their imagination when they grew up, imaginations improved. The reality is not "There is no Santa Claus, etc.", the reality was Mom and Dad took still play imaginary roles.

I don't know about your parents, but my parents, while pretending to be Santa Claus, never once pretended to be God. I never pretended they were God, either.

Just as little Christians pursued the reality behind Santa Claus, they also pursued the reality behind God--atheists chose not to pursue that reality.

 

[Meriweather]

Thank you for the opportunity to explain some important answers to some relevant questions for an atheist.

Always enjoy reading and discussing such matters with you, Donald. My thanks to you.

 

[Donald H]

Old Testament stories are not Encylopedia or newspaper report. They have a lesson with a theme to convey. Instead of calling to mind a lesson or theme, people in modern times get distracted by a someone surviving in the belly of big fish for three days. Do you recall the theme at all?

Thanks for the reply on this topic. I think you've raised some good points that can be addressed.

When I rejected the god, the bible, and Christ I was a young boy of 12 or 13 if I recall correctly. Since then, I haven't been given a reason to change my mind! (the ball's in your court fwiw?)

I think you need to be able to appreciate my point that children are susceptible to the christian's message at an early age, but aren't when they reach the age of 12 or 13.

To your point: Had someone been honest and told me that the Sunday school teaching wasn't to be believed by children, things might have been different for me.

However, that could have just made the matter worse in that the church would have then been rightfully accused of attempting to cause confusion in the minds of young children.

The said mentioned stories from your old testament are the same stories that are taught to young children. What do you expect a young child of 4 to 11 to believe?

Arming children with a warning of caution on that which is not intended to be accepted and believed, would seem to me to be counter productive to the church's cause.

What other of you claims would you like to address with me?

 

[Donald H]

Perhaps it takes a young child to distinguish between the imagination and the reality in the accounts.

That's being deliberately dishonest and irrational. If you're attempting to hang your hat on that statement then you're going to have to provide some evidence for that reasoning.

An older child is more distracted than entertained by the imaginary.

Indeed, it's the imaginary. An older child understands just that!

Hopefully a younger child will go home and ask his parents if a man can live in the belly of a fish?

And hopefully the parent will answer the child's question honestly.

Or

Hopefully for the Sunday school teacher, the parent will play along with the lies!

 

[Meriweather]

And I did study the bible to make myself a better Christian. That's when I learned what is really there instead of what some teacher or preacher said about it. If god doesn't get angry, as you just claimed, why did he order the deaths of so many children, and order the deaths of livestock and then to salt the earth so nothing could grow?

There are a few theories behind this. Judaism notes the serious disease and maladies (no antibiotics then) that could spread and harm other populations. The Israelites were commanded to act for the greater good of all nations.

Another: God was communicating, "End this behavior" and humans interpreted the command as "Get rid of the people."

Next: People, being what we are, wanted the goods, land, and wealth of another community, and convinced themselves God was okay with them demolishing the people and taking over their possessions.

In all interpretations, we contrast what humanity did and compare it to more loving, kind, merciful, just, and disciplined actions. We know how humanity should behave...did we reach the ideal?

 

[Meriweather]

Your semantics are disingenuous in my opinion and I'm very busy with other replies to other topics right now

Have you considered people of faith might find, "I was looking for evidence" as an even more disingenuous response? That it may seem more like a pretense? Kind of like, "Mom, I know you asked me to bring you needle from your sewing box. I looked in the oven for a piece of paper, and there wasn't one, so I knew I wouldn't find a needle in your sewing box either."

Think about it. Scripture does not advise us to seek evidence. It advises us to seek God.

 

[Donald H]

As a child, what delighted me about learning the truth about Santa Claus, the Easter Bunny, and the Tooth Fairy was the realization that adults not only retained their imagination when they grew up, imaginations improved. The reality is not "There is no Santa Claus, etc.", the reality was Mom and Dad took still play imaginary roles.

I don't know about your parents, but my parents, while pretending to be Santa Claus, never once pretended to be God. I never pretended they were God, either.

No, my parents didn't, but what is your point?
I've stated no complaints on the teaching of the other sky fairies, but I state and claim revulsion on a child being expected to believe in the Christian's sky fairy.

Just as little Christians pursued the reality behind Santa Claus, they also pursued the reality behind God--atheists chose not to pursue that reality.

Where's the reality you're hinting at? As I said, the ball's in your court.
You're trying to sell reality of Santa and your god, about 70 years too late.

However, I do have an open mind and a degree of intelligence above 95% of others.

I suspect that you too can exchange ideas on that same level. Let's not insult each other with something less.

 

[Meriweather]

Way to address the OP

Grin. No worries. I have accepted I cannot comprehend his points and stopped reading any of his posts long ago. Even when I never--or hardly ever--respond to some, I still enjoy reading most others. Yours especially.

I very much suspect others have the same views about me and my posts.

 

[ding]

I very much suspect others have the same views about me and my posts.

Your posts are awesome. They are informative, respectful, accurate, balanced and you have a talent for writing conscientious, well thought out and well articulated posts.

 

[Donald H]

Have you considered people of faith might find, "I was looking for evidence" as an even more disingenuous response?

I expect that from some Christians. I'm not subject to a reliance on faith.

That it may seem more like a pretense? Kind of like, "Mom, I know you asked me to bring you needle from your sewing box. I looked in the oven for a piece of paper, and there wasn't one, so I knew I wouldn't find a needle in your sewing box either."

I've missed your point.
I'm not demanding material evidence and I'm amenable to less perhaps, but with an adult's discretion.

Think about it. Scripture does not advise us to seek evidence. It advises us to seek God.

Why should I accept your god? WHY?
The church betrayed the trust of a child when I was 12 or 13.
You're not making an attempt to win it back. Not only will I not seek your god, I won't allow him into my head. His church abused me as a child and the Christian church hasn't yet admitted to child abuse, never mind offering an apology!

 

[Donald H]

What is left of Christianity for us to believe? It's a serious question.

Darwinian evolution has become acceptable to the Catholic church!

The creation myth is not even expected to be believed anymore!

 

[Meriweather]

Thanks for the reply on this topic. I think you've raised some good points that can be addressed.

When I rejected the god, the bible, and Christ I was a young boy of 12 or 13 if I recall correctly. Since then, I haven't been given a reason to change my mind! (the ball's in your court fwiw?)

I think you need to be able to appreciate my point that children are susceptible to the christian's message at an early age, but aren't when they reach the age of 12 or 13.

Yes! Now we are on the same page and seeing the very same problem! As someone who used to teach CCE (Continuing Catholic Education) these students came into the room the first day bored to tears because they have already heard the basics. And you are right. It is like wanting them to take a new look at Goldilocks and the Three Bears and find something different. Unfortunately, most Catechism classes want the students to be taught from the same book.

One year we had just moved to a small town, with a poor church, and no money to spend on books. They told me to do my best, and by the way, good luck with the young teens. Pastor and parents were taken aback when the students came out and excitedly and enthusiastically told them my first words to them were, "First things first. We must kill God." Naturally, I had gone on to tell the students what they were holding onto was a child's image and knowledge of God, and we had to wipe that away so we could move on in our search and study.

Both Pastor and parents were happy that the students were very happy with me and had gone on to learn something that held their interest and motivated them, but they did suggest perhaps I use a less shocking intro. (And the Pastor made a point of dropping by the next class to satisfy himself a crazy person hadn't been given charge of teaching teenagers about their faith.)

Still, when it comes to faith, it can be likened to expecting a teenager to continue to be happy with a wading pool and a tricycle when they are ready for cars and lakes. Some other parishes try entertaining teens instead of challenging hands on activities based on equally challenging instruction.

Not sure what the answer is.

 

[Meriweather]

That's being deliberately dishonest and irrational.

No it is not. I am speaking of my own experience. I had an uncle the same age as me so we learned about Santa at the same time. While I was delighted with adult imaginations, he was angry at adult lies. He never allowed his children to believe in Santa. (Or God, for that matter.)

 

[Donald H]

Your posts are awesome. They are informative, respectful, accurate, balanced and you have a talent for writing conscientious, well thought out and well articulated posts.

But not respectful of the opinions of non-believers. He can't expect others to believe, based on nothing more than his faith.
He knows that but doesn't attempt to offer anything better so far. His replies give the impression that he doesn't believe that evidence can be asked for, but instead tells us that we should seek the god?

 

[Meriweather]

Hopefully a younger child will go home and ask his parents if a man can live in the belly of a fish?

And hopefully the parent will answer the child's question honestly.

Or

Hopefully for the Sunday school teacher, the parent will play along with the lies!

It is easy for a Sunday School teacher to work with the story of Jonah. Ask a student for an example the last time their parent told them to do something they did not want to do and they disobeyed. This progresses to dark feelings and dark times--which is what happened when Jonah told God he didn't want to do something. He landed in deep waters and ended up in a dark place. It took him about three days to "see the light" and understand obeying God (or a parent) brings one out of dark times.

 

[Meriweather]

Why should I accept your god? WHY?

Scripture says absolutely nothing about accepting 'my' God. Scripture advises to seek God.

Why should you seek God? I have no idea. That's up to you. I can tell you why I decided to seek God. Abraham, Noah, and Moses got to meet God, and I wanted to meet Him, too. Since neither of the above three had to wait until they died, I saw no reason why I should have to wait. So off I went on my quest and persisted in it.

I very much suspect some are atheist because pursuing God is too much work, perhaps even too much trouble. Nor are they wrong. I thought it worth the adventure.

 

[Donald H]

Yes! Now we are on the same page and seeing the very same problem!

Not sure what the answer is.

There is no answer that can be suitable to the church.
You are aware that Darwinian evolution has been accepted by the Catholic church. It had to happen. The flock has been forced into having to live the creation lie.

I'm not tuning you out and I'm not asking for material evidence to support your faith.

You suggested that we need to seek god. I'm there waiting on the door step and I assure you that I'm capable of understanding anything you can offer.

And I'm fine too if you have nothing to offer.

 

[Meriweather]

You're not making an attempt to win it back. Not only will I not seek your god, I won't allow him into my head. His church abused me as a child and the Christian church hasn't yet admitted to child abuse, never mind offering an apology!

Indeed, I am sorry you had a rough time with your church. Even so, I see all that as a mere distraction for one who has God as his/her goal.

It is kind of like on the way to the goal line, one is knocked out of bounds--and instead of getting back into the game or on track, one decides not to finish the game. Possibly the game simply isn't for them.

 

[Meriweather]

Darwinian evolution has become acceptable to the Catholic church!

Old news. That occurred in my grandmother's time.

 

[ding]

He can't expect others to believe, based on nothing more than his faith.

She. And I have never seen her expect that of anyone. If I read the bible the way you read the bible, I wouldn't believe it either. But I don't read the bible like you read the bible.