Collective bargaining at itsfinest

[Bfgrn]

Yes. Management. Politicians elected to represent the public. The public is NOT being represented at the negotiating table. Up until now there has been no incentive for politicians to negotiate, keeping in mind the taxpayers. That is coming to an end.
Again, there are no similarities between private sector and public sector negotiations.
When one says' Don't blame the workers, blame the politicians", they are missing the most important point of this issue. That is the fact that the people responsible for paying the bills have no say in the process.

Empty propaganda. For 52 years the State of Wisconsin has collectively bargained with public unions. The results:

Are Public Employees Overpaid?

Walker has said that the labor changes are necessary because Wisconsin’s local and state employees haven’t made the same sacrifices during the Great Recession as private sector workers.

Walker glossed over the fact that state employees had eight unpaid furlough days in 2009 and 2010, which saved the state $121 million, and their wages have been flat for years.

He also forgot to mention that when he was Milwaukee County executive, members of the largest county employee union took 26 unpaid furlough days in 2010, or one unpaid day off for every two-week pay period—a 10% pay cut. They’ll have 26 unpaid days off this year, too, as a result of Walker’s final county budget. (The employees at the Shepherd Express, a private sector company, did not have any wage decreases or forced furlough days.)

So is Walker correct when he says that public employees are making more than their counterparts in the private sector?

The short answer is no, according to a new study by the national nonpartisan Economic Policy Institute (EPI), which found that Wisconsin’s state and local employees earn 4.8% less per hour in total compensation than their peers in the private sector. That number jumps to 25% for college-educated employees. EPI found that, on average, Wisconsin’s public employees with a bachelor’s degree earn $61,668 in total compensation; their peers working for private employers earn $82,134 in wages and benefits.

And although Gov. Scott Walker is earning $144,423 as a public sector employee with “some college” education, his pay package is not typical. Public sector employees who attended college but did not earn a diploma earn an average $46,707 in wages and benefits, while those in the private sector earn 7% more, or $50,324, EPI found.

and still with all the days off, the state's taxpayers still are unable to afford the public workers.

So those services are no longer needed. Great...why educate children, parents can handle that. Why do hospitals need nurses, a ******* patient should know how to start their own IV. And neighbors can all pitch in and shovel the snow off theirs streets, gather up their garbage and take it to the dump. Problems solved...

 

[Quantum Windbag]

Those are terrible policies.

That isn't the fault of collective bargaining though.

That is the fault of bad bargaining on the part of managment.

What management?

 

[Big Fitz]

Our founding fathers were not lovers of corporations and they treated corporations with suspicion equal to or greater than their suspicion of government.

You do realize that most of the founders were businessmen of some sort or another? Not community organizers? Corporations in the modern sense didn't exist then. They were more like the East India Company which was a template for the abominations known as Government Sponsored Enterprises.

They HEAVILY regulated corporations and frequently pulled their charters if they did anything that brought harm to the people.

Start showing proof of this allegation.

But what America has devolved into is a minority of liberals who understand our founders' intent

Strict Constructionalist libertarians, yes by the historical use of the word liberal. Modern Liberals (nee communist/socialist/fascists) sure as shit don't.

These same right wing ideologues now believe the nations panacea is to put complete trust and undying faith in the very entities (corporations) our founders despised.

Your original premise that the founders hated corporations is still wrong and without proof.

It was a corporate tax break to the British East India Company which threatened to decimate small Colonial businesses that enraged patriots enough to dress like Indians and dump tea in Boston harbor, even though rescinding that corporate tax break would likely make tea more expensive for the settlers.

Wow, talk about bass ackwards! The colonists were mad because their tea was taxed an intolerable rate. Then through the policy of mercantilism, made a government monopoly allowing only EITCo tea to be traded or purchased. This didn't tax the independent business owner, it destroyed them. That was it's purpose as well.

I didn't think even public schools got it this wrong before.

Tardtard, you're still a tard among tards.

 

[Quantum Windbag]

We can all agree that if these things are true they are wrong. But there are some assumptions that I would challenge, particularly when someone insinuates that a lower-cost health care plan is equal to what it would replace.

Who, other than you, insinuated any such thing? The teacher quoted said that she would have having a job and a lower cost plan that cost her the same amount of money out of pocket ($0.00) to not having a job and the higher cost plan.

But here are the facts; in the 52 years Wisconsin has had public unions, there is scant evidence of malfeasance. Public sector employees in Wisconsin make less than their private sector counterparts. And for jobs requiring a college degree, considerably less.

What, exactly, does scant evidence of malfeasance mean?

Republicans and the right have spread a bunch of lies, and you empty vessels absorb it like mindless sponges.

WEA Trust, the health care provider created by the teachers union in Wisconsin is a model of how a health care provider should be run. They offer many more benefits than their competitors at close to the same price. AND, if the competitors had to offer an identical plan, they couldn't match WEA's rates. WEA spends 93 cents out of every dollar on benefits. Private insurance companies are being forced to spend at least 80 cents by the Affordable Heath Care Act.

You believe that the model of how a health care plan should be run is that it is sold by the special interest group who make money off of it, that it charges more than comparable plans in the same market, and that it should all be paid by the taxpayer. Aren't you also one of the people that argue that Obamacare will save us money?

You say teachers are not the problem, but Walker is cutting their pay and there is no one on the right standing up for teachers, just parroting the talking points of a despot Governor who admitted he is union busting.

Teachers pay is getting cut everywhere, even in California where there is no one on the right who is involved in the decision. The fact is that states simply do not have enough money to pay the benefits that unions demand and keep up the other services you want, like health care. This is true in Democratic and Republican controlled states, and your attempt to make it into a partisan issue is getting older every time you do it. Start living in the real world sometime.

 

[Big Fitz]

Empty propaganda. For 52 years the State of Wisconsin has collectively bargained with public unions. The results:

Are Public Employees Overpaid?

Walker has said that the labor changes are necessary because Wisconsin’s local and state employees haven’t made the same sacrifices during the Great Recession as private sector workers.

Walker glossed over the fact that state employees had eight unpaid furlough days in 2009 and 2010, which saved the state $121 million, and their wages have been flat for years.

He also forgot to mention that when he was Milwaukee County executive, members of the largest county employee union took 26 unpaid furlough days in 2010, or one unpaid day off for every two-week pay period—a 10% pay cut. They’ll have 26 unpaid days off this year, too, as a result of Walker’s final county budget. (The employees at the Shepherd Express, a private sector company, did not have any wage decreases or forced furlough days.)

So is Walker correct when he says that public employees are making more than their counterparts in the private sector?

The short answer is no, according to a new study by the national nonpartisan Economic Policy Institute (EPI), which found that Wisconsin’s state and local employees earn 4.8% less per hour in total compensation than their peers in the private sector. That number jumps to 25% for college-educated employees. EPI found that, on average, Wisconsin’s public employees with a bachelor’s degree earn $61,668 in total compensation; their peers working for private employers earn $82,134 in wages and benefits.

And although Gov. Scott Walker is earning $144,423 as a public sector employee with “some college” education, his pay package is not typical. Public sector employees who attended college but did not earn a diploma earn an average $46,707 in wages and benefits, while those in the private sector earn 7% more, or $50,324, EPI found.

and still with all the days off, the state's taxpayers still are unable to afford the public workers.

So those services are no longer needed. Great...why educate children, parents can handle that. Why do hospitals need nurses, a ******* patient should know how to start their own IV. And neighbors can all pitch in and shovel the snow off theirs streets, gather up their garbage and take it to the dump. Problems solved...

You do not seem to understand the concept between reasonable collaborative enterprises able to be undertaken by government on a local level and the federal government.

Is there a federal "Department of Sanitation"? How about Snow Shovelling? Dog Catching? Hospitals... oh wait... Obamacare

The point is that the feds have no business in these matters. It is not their job or enumerated power.

On the other hand, states have been granted through the 10th amendment broad and undefined powers in which to take on such aspects of life and administer many things OR delegate this to the local authorities to handle. This is known as federalism. Now you don't need the National Dog Catcher's office to handle the animal control tasks. You just need a town dog catcher... assuming your community even feels the need for one. If you live in south Florida, who needs snow removal?

Redacto in absurdum fail. quelle suprise.

 

[Quantum Windbag]

So how often is this actually done and what percentage of public workers that walker is stripping of their collective bargaining rights does it apply to?? Furthermore how does a correctional officer exploiting the system have anything to do with teachers??

I have no idea ho often it happens, but the fact that it happens at all is wrong. The fact that there are honest empoyees that do not do it does not excuse those that do.

BTW, how can you qualify for overtime if you only work 8 hours?? Fuzzy math?? My guess is that the officer works 32 hours exploits a loophole that does need to be addressed and takes sick leave for 8 hours and then works an additional 8 at the overtime rate. Funny how your link claims he only works 8 hours. LOL

The contract is written so that anytime you clock in for two shifts in one day you get overtime for the second shift. This means that you can take your sick day for a week, work the second shift every day, work only 40 hours, and get paid for 100 hours.

Maybe you should work on your comprehension skills, and you math.

uh you do realize that the numbers now add up to 104.2% don't you?? How can teachers contribute 4.2% and the school district pay 100%. More of that fuzzy math? I am beginning to doubt the veractiy of the content from your link. Funny how the blog fails to offer anything of substance to back up it's claims and yet you jump at the chance to swallow what it is feeding you without question.

I take that back, you definitely need to work on both.

They receive two, entirely separate pensions. One is not detailed here, and it is entirely supported by taxpayers, the second pension is equivalent to 4.2% of their salary, and is also 100% taxpayer funded. Neither of them require any contributions by teachers, and adding them together does not add up to more than 100% of anything.

Yeah that sucks but it's good that seniority counts for something in this world. BTW was her lay off directly caused by the hc plan and if so can you show proof of that link? Or was it part of the overall budget shortfall that every state is running into because of the economy??


BTW come to find out that your blog is parroting walker's talking points.

Media Room

LOL Good job. quantum want a cracker?

Seniority is more important than merit? Why?

The point I, and the teacher, am making is that she would rather have a less expensive health care plan and a job than no health care and no job. She was not given a choice in the matter though, because her "right" to collective bargaining trumped her right to make a choice.

Calling a fact a talking point doe not make them false, it just means you have no rebuttal.

 

[Quantum Windbag]

You know, I have no problem with any of this, as far as the workers go. If the employer has agreed to such terms, then that's on the employer, plain and simple. If I sit down at the table with you and work out a business deal that ends up being foolish for me, then that is my fault for being foolish in my business deals. Same thing applies.

You have no problem with the fact that your community cannot afford to pay for basic services because some idiot in the past gave unions a sweetheart deal? My advice to you is not to expect anyone to fill potholes around you house because you think it is more important to pay a teacher two pensions than fill holes.

That is why you renegotiate the deal. Unions were willing to compromise walker was not. If you have a mole on your foot that you want to remove you don't amputate the leg.

According to walker's own website he sites a press release with no link and your source is parroting walker's talking points and I cannot find an original copy of the press release so can you prove your claim that they get two pensions??

That is certainly one way to interpret the situation, but there are others. He put out the terms of his deal, and the union rejected them. Did you notice in all of this that his plan affects more than just the teachers union? Or that the teachers union is the only one that raised a big stink and refused to accept it? Until, that is, the President of the United States decided to interject himself into state politics and made a bigger issue of it.

 

[Bfgrn]

Our founding fathers were not lovers of corporations and they treated corporations with suspicion equal to or greater than their suspicion of government.

You do realize that most of the founders were businessmen of some sort or another? Not community organizers? Corporations in the modern sense didn't exist then. They were more like the East India Company which was a template for the abominations known as Government Sponsored Enterprises.

They HEAVILY regulated corporations and frequently pulled their charters if they did anything that brought harm to the people.

Start showing proof of this allegation.



Strict Constructionalist libertarians, yes by the historical use of the word liberal. Modern Liberals (nee communist/socialist/fascists) sure as shit don't.

These same right wing ideologues now believe the nations panacea is to put complete trust and undying faith in the very entities (corporations) our founders despised.

Your original premise that the founders hated corporations is still wrong and without proof.

It was a corporate tax break to the British East India Company which threatened to decimate small Colonial businesses that enraged patriots enough to dress like Indians and dump tea in Boston harbor, even though rescinding that corporate tax break would likely make tea more expensive for the settlers.

Wow, talk about bass ackwards! The colonists were mad because their tea was taxed an intolerable rate. Then through the policy of mercantilism, made a government monopoly allowing only EITCo tea to be traded or purchased. This didn't tax the independent business owner, it destroyed them. That was it's purpose as well.

I didn't think even public schools got it this wrong before.

Tardtard, you're still a tard among tards.

No problem...BTW, our founding fathers were not libertarians.
Were the Founding Fathers Libertarians? | FrumForum


When American colonists declared independence from England in 1776, they also freed themselves from control by English corporations that extracted their wealth and dominated trade. After fighting a revolution to end this exploitation, our country's founders retained a healthy fear of corporate power and wisely limited corporations exclusively to a business role. Corporations were forbidden from attempting to influence elections, public policy, and other realms of civic society.

Initially, the privilege of incorporation was granted selectively to enable activities that benefited the public, such as construction of roads or canals. Enabling shareholders to profit was seen as a means to that end.

The states also imposed conditions (some of which remain on the books, though unused) like these:

* Corporate charters (licenses to exist) were granted for a limited time and could be revoked promptly for violating laws.

* Corporations could engage only in activities necessary to fulfill their chartered purpose.

* Corporations could not own stock in other corporations nor own any property that was not essential to fulfilling their chartered purpose.

* Corporations were often terminated if they exceeded their authority or caused public harm.

* Owners and managers were responsible for criminal acts committed on the job.

* Corporations could not make any political or charitable contributions nor spend money to influence law-making.

For 100 years after the American Revolution, legislators maintained tight control of the corporate chartering process. Because of widespread public opposition, early legislators granted very few corporate charters, and only after debate. Citizens governed corporations by detailing operating conditions not just in charters but also in state constitutions and state laws. Incorporated businesses were prohibited from taking any action that legislators did not specifically allow.

States also limited corporate charters to a set number of years. Unless a legislature renewed an expiring charter, the corporation was dissolved and its assets were divided among shareholders. Citizen authority clauses limited capitalization, debts, land holdings, and sometimes, even profits. They required a company's accounting books to be turned over to a legislature upon request. The power of large shareholders was limited by scaled voting, so that large and small investors had equal voting rights. Interlocking directorates were outlawed. Shareholders had the right to remove directors at will.

Our Hidden History of Corporations in the United States

Other sources that reinforce our founders strictly regulated corporations.

The History of the Corporation

Early corporations

The Uncooling of America The History of Corporations in the United States

Unequal Protection by Thom Hartmann

 

[thereisnospoon]

Empty propaganda. For 52 years the State of Wisconsin has collectively bargained with public unions. The results:

Are Public Employees Overpaid?

Walker has said that the labor changes are necessary because Wisconsin’s local and state employees haven’t made the same sacrifices during the Great Recession as private sector workers.

Walker glossed over the fact that state employees had eight unpaid furlough days in 2009 and 2010, which saved the state $121 million, and their wages have been flat for years.

He also forgot to mention that when he was Milwaukee County executive, members of the largest county employee union took 26 unpaid furlough days in 2010, or one unpaid day off for every two-week pay period—a 10% pay cut. They’ll have 26 unpaid days off this year, too, as a result of Walker’s final county budget. (The employees at the Shepherd Express, a private sector company, did not have any wage decreases or forced furlough days.)

So is Walker correct when he says that public employees are making more than their counterparts in the private sector?

The short answer is no, according to a new study by the national nonpartisan Economic Policy Institute (EPI), which found that Wisconsin’s state and local employees earn 4.8% less per hour in total compensation than their peers in the private sector. That number jumps to 25% for college-educated employees. EPI found that, on average, Wisconsin’s public employees with a bachelor’s degree earn $61,668 in total compensation; their peers working for private employers earn $82,134 in wages and benefits.

And although Gov. Scott Walker is earning $144,423 as a public sector employee with “some college” education, his pay package is not typical. Public sector employees who attended college but did not earn a diploma earn an average $46,707 in wages and benefits, while those in the private sector earn 7% more, or $50,324, EPI found.

and still with all the days off, the state's taxpayers still are unable to afford the public workers.

So those services are no longer needed. Great...why educate children, parents can handle that. Why do hospitals need nurses, a ******* patient should know how to start their own IV. And neighbors can all pitch in and shovel the snow off theirs streets, gather up their garbage and take it to the dump. Problems solved...

Ahh yes..The liberal mainstay called the "all or nothing straw man argument".
No one said anything about eliminating services. You made that up. Stop the shrill nonsense. Get your head out of the sand.
The issue is the taxpayers can no longer afford the high wages and gold plated benefits.
The people are demanding the public sector do with less. Just as the private sector must do with less.
If you and those who support this nonsense wish, you may dig into YOUR pocket and cover the cost. Don't sit there and demand others pay up for what only YOU want.
On public education....Don't dare go there. 10% of all students are home schooled. Another 20% go to private schools. Another 5% go to Charter Schools.
So don't try that shit. Public schools are NOT the only venue fr education. You are right with the teacher's unions in that regard.
I find it laughable when the only people who gripe about school vouchers, private schools and Charter Schools and the ******* teacher's unions.
Trash removal.....Hey genius most towns and cities already have private contractors do that. Most towns have volunteer fire departments. Some small towns and gated communities have private security( sworn officers with powers of arrest) too patrol te streets.
The point heavy government is not necessary. Where I live \our town has 25,000 people. We have limited government. We employ the county sheriff's dept to be our police dept. It cost's $800,000 per year as opposed to a neighboring town with half the population which has it's own PD at a cost of $4million per year. We have private contractors collect the trash, take care of the landscaping in the public areas and the county hires private contractors to maintain the roadways. Our tax rate......a whopping 12 cents per $100 of assessed value.....How about THAT!!!!
No unions. No collective bargaining. No expensive and bulbous municipal budgets and no political patronage or nepotism. No bullshit...We don't want it and we don't need it.
I am running into people who hail from the high tax areas of the Northeast. They come down here and tell me they can buy twice the house 1/3 the money. They say the were paying $1,000 per month in property taxes there and $1,000 a year here.
Gee, why is that?.....
So you go ahead and make that silly "no services" argument. Full of shit is an understatement.
Try again.

 

[signelect]

Why do you cut and past the same quotes over and over and over and over, get the message, once is enough.

 

[Bfgrn]

and still with all the days off, the state's taxpayers still are unable to afford the public workers.

So those services are no longer needed. Great...why educate children, parents can handle that. Why do hospitals need nurses, a ******* patient should know how to start their own IV. And neighbors can all pitch in and shovel the snow off theirs streets, gather up their garbage and take it to the dump. Problems solved...

Ahh yes..The liberal mainstay called the "all or nothing straw man argument".
No one said anything about eliminating services. You made that up. Stop the shrill nonsense. Get your head out of the sand.
The issue is the taxpayers can no longer afford the high wages and gold plated benefits.
The people are demanding the public sector do with less. Just as the private sector must do with less.
If you and those who support this nonsense wish, you may dig into YOUR pocket and cover the cost. Don't sit there and demand others pay up for what only YOU want.
On public education....Don't dare go there. 10% of all students are home schooled. Another 20% go to private schools. Another 5% go to Charter Schools.
So don't try that shit. Public schools are NOT the only venue fr education. You are right with the teacher's unions in that regard.
I find it laughable when the only people who gripe about school vouchers, private schools and Charter Schools and the ******* teacher's unions.
Trash removal.....Hey genius most towns and cities already have private contractors do that. Most towns have volunteer fire departments. Some small towns and gated communities have private security( sworn officers with powers of arrest) too patrol te streets.
The point heavy government is not necessary. Where I live \our town has 25,000 people. We have limited government. We employ the county sheriff's dept to be our police dept. It cost's $800,000 per year as opposed to a neighboring town with half the population which has it's own PD at a cost of $4million per year. We have private contractors collect the trash, take care of the landscaping in the public areas and the county hires private contractors to maintain the roadways. Our tax rate......a whopping 12 cents per $100 of assessed value.....How about THAT!!!!
No unions. No collective bargaining. No expensive and bulbous municipal budgets and no political patronage or nepotism. No bullshit...We don't want it and we don't need it.
I am running into people who hail from the high tax areas of the Northeast. They come down here and tell me they can buy twice the house 1/3 the money. They say the were paying $1,000 per month in property taxes there and $1,000 a year here.
Gee, why is that?.....
So you go ahead and make that silly "no services" argument. Full of shit is an understatement.
Try again.

No, actually the polarized, all or none, black or white argument is a mainstay of the right. My use of it was to point out the fact those services are required and the need for them will remain a requirement. There are some services I support privatizing, like garbage collection. There are others I oppose privatizing like education, law enforcement or any service where a human life is a stake.

The GOVERNOR of Wisconsin decided the public unions needed to be busted. Which is what this was all about. If you are unaware of this fact, or deny it, you are uninformed or just stupid.

Walker claimed Wisconsin had a $137 million dollar deficit, declared an emergency and passed a little used 'repair' provision to use executive power as an ax.

What you won't hear on Fox News is this:

Walker claims there is a $137 million deficit -- it is not because of a drop in revenues or increases in the cost of state employee contracts, benefits or pensions. It is because Walker and his allies pushed through $140 million in new spending for special-interest groups in January. If the Legislature were simply to rescind Walker’s new spending schemes -- or delay their implementation until they are offset by fresh revenues -- the “crisis” would not exist.

Walker Concocts 'Scoop and Toss' Borrowing Scheme to Pay for $140 Million in Special Interest Spending
Wall Street Bond Holders Win; Wisconsin's Long-Term Debt Rises

Madison-- Republican Gov. Scott Walker plans to pay for $140 million in new special interest spending signed into law in January by extending the state's long term debt in a "scoop and toss" refinancing scheme that will cost untold tens of millions of dollars in additional debt for Wisconsin.

"Scott Walker railed non-stop against budget gimmicks as a candidate and now as governor he's put together a scheme that would make a pay-day lender blush," said Scot Ross, One Wisconsin Now Executive Director. "Gov. Walker created this problem by handing out $140 million in special interest spending to his corporate pals and he's going to make our children pay for it by taking loans the state was ready to pay off and borrow more money on them."

Walker is refusing to provide full accounting of how much in additional costs his "scoop and toss" scheme would cost taxpayers down the road. Since his inauguration in early January, Walker has approved $140 million in new special interest spending that includes:

* $25 million for an economic development fund for job creation that still has $73 million due to a lack of job creation. Walker is creating a $25 million hole which will not create or retain jobs. [Wisconsin Legislative Fiscal Bureau, 1/7/11]

* $48 million for private health savings accounts, which primarily benefit the wealthy. A study from the federal Governmental Accountability Office showed the average adjusted gross income of HSA participants was $139,000 and nearly half of HSA participants reported withdrawing nothing from their HSA, evidence that it is serving as a tax shelter for wealthy participants. [Government Accountability Office, 4/1/08; Wisconsin Legislative Fiscal Bureau, 1/11/11]

* $67 million for a tax shift plan, so ill-conceived that at-best the benefit provided to job creators would be less than a dollar a day per new job, and may be as little as 30 cents a day. [Associated Press, 1/28/01]

Walker Concocts 'Scoop and Toss' Borrowing Scheme to Pay for $140 Million in Special Interest Spending - One Wisconsin Now


BTW, Wisconsin is not a southern state. They have things called snow, frost and blizzards that are annual events during long periods of the year. The need for public works, highway departments and much more frequent road repair are significant factors.

 

[thereisnospoon]

Why do you cut and past the same quotes over and over and over and over, get the message, once is enough.

Excuse me I tried to answer each of the points one by one without having to re write the other poster's points.
Does that work for you Mr Board Monitor?
I'm just not as skilled as you, ok.
Now, do you have anything of substance to add? Because I'm fuckin busy.

 

[thereisnospoon]

So those services are no longer needed. Great...why educate children, parents can handle that. Why do hospitals need nurses, a ******* patient should know how to start their own IV. And neighbors can all pitch in and shovel the snow off theirs streets, gather up their garbage and take it to the dump. Problems solved...

Ahh yes..The liberal mainstay called the "all or nothing straw man argument".
No one said anything about eliminating services. You made that up. Stop the shrill nonsense. Get your head out of the sand.
The issue is the taxpayers can no longer afford the high wages and gold plated benefits.
The people are demanding the public sector do with less. Just as the private sector must do with less.
If you and those who support this nonsense wish, you may dig into YOUR pocket and cover the cost. Don't sit there and demand others pay up for what only YOU want.
On public education....Don't dare go there. 10% of all students are home schooled. Another 20% go to private schools. Another 5% go to Charter Schools.
So don't try that shit. Public schools are NOT the only venue fr education. You are right with the teacher's unions in that regard.
I find it laughable when the only people who gripe about school vouchers, private schools and Charter Schools and the ******* teacher's unions.
Trash removal.....Hey genius most towns and cities already have private contractors do that. Most towns have volunteer fire departments. Some small towns and gated communities have private security( sworn officers with powers of arrest) too patrol te streets.
The point heavy government is not necessary. Where I live \our town has 25,000 people. We have limited government. We employ the county sheriff's dept to be our police dept. It cost's $800,000 per year as opposed to a neighboring town with half the population which has it's own PD at a cost of $4million per year. We have private contractors collect the trash, take care of the landscaping in the public areas and the county hires private contractors to maintain the roadways. Our tax rate......a whopping 12 cents per $100 of assessed value.....How about THAT!!!!
No unions. No collective bargaining. No expensive and bulbous municipal budgets and no political patronage or nepotism. No bullshit...We don't want it and we don't need it.
I am running into people who hail from the high tax areas of the Northeast. They come down here and tell me they can buy twice the house 1/3 the money. They say the were paying $1,000 per month in property taxes there and $1,000 a year here.
Gee, why is that?.....
So you go ahead and make that silly "no services" argument. Full of shit is an understatement.
Try again.

No, actually the polarized, all or none, black or white argument is a mainstay of the right. My use of it was to point out the fact those services are required and the need for them will remain a requirement. There are some services I support privatizing, like garbage collection. There are others I oppose privatizing like education, law enforcement or any service where a human life is a stake.

The GOVERNOR of Wisconsin decided the public unions needed to be busted. Which is what this was all about. If you are unaware of this fact, or deny it, you are uninformed or just stupid.

Walker claimed Wisconsin had a $137 million dollar deficit, declared an emergency and passed a little used 'repair' provision to use executive power as an ax.

What you won't hear on Fox News is this:

Walker claims there is a $137 million deficit -- it is not because of a drop in revenues or increases in the cost of state employee contracts, benefits or pensions. It is because Walker and his allies pushed through $140 million in new spending for special-interest groups in January. If the Legislature were simply to rescind Walker’s new spending schemes -- or delay their implementation until they are offset by fresh revenues -- the “crisis” would not exist.

Walker Concocts 'Scoop and Toss' Borrowing Scheme to Pay for $140 Million in Special Interest Spending
Wall Street Bond Holders Win; Wisconsin's Long-Term Debt Rises

Madison-- Republican Gov. Scott Walker plans to pay for $140 million in new special interest spending signed into law in January by extending the state's long term debt in a "scoop and toss" refinancing scheme that will cost untold tens of millions of dollars in additional debt for Wisconsin.

"Scott Walker railed non-stop against budget gimmicks as a candidate and now as governor he's put together a scheme that would make a pay-day lender blush," said Scot Ross, One Wisconsin Now Executive Director. "Gov. Walker created this problem by handing out $140 million in special interest spending to his corporate pals and he's going to make our children pay for it by taking loans the state was ready to pay off and borrow more money on them."

Walker is refusing to provide full accounting of how much in additional costs his "scoop and toss" scheme would cost taxpayers down the road. Since his inauguration in early January, Walker has approved $140 million in new special interest spending that includes:

* $25 million for an economic development fund for job creation that still has $73 million due to a lack of job creation. Walker is creating a $25 million hole which will not create or retain jobs. [Wisconsin Legislative Fiscal Bureau, 1/7/11]

* $48 million for private health savings accounts, which primarily benefit the wealthy. A study from the federal Governmental Accountability Office showed the average adjusted gross income of HSA participants was $139,000 and nearly half of HSA participants reported withdrawing nothing from their HSA, evidence that it is serving as a tax shelter for wealthy participants. [Government Accountability Office, 4/1/08; Wisconsin Legislative Fiscal Bureau, 1/11/11]

* $67 million for a tax shift plan, so ill-conceived that at-best the benefit provided to job creators would be less than a dollar a day per new job, and may be as little as 30 cents a day. [Associated Press, 1/28/01]

Walker Concocts 'Scoop and Toss' Borrowing Scheme to Pay for $140 Million in Special Interest Spending - One Wisconsin Now


BTW, Wisconsin is not a southern state. They have things called snow, frost and blizzards that are annual events during long periods of the year. The need for public works, highway departments and much more frequent road repair are significant factors.

That's right be the good liberal. Yiou people recognize the only way to deflect criticism from yourselves is to accuse your opposition of what your side is well known to do.
Nice try but that ******* raccoon won't get into my trash can.
The fact is many states get along just fine without burdensome unions representing government workers. Public worker unions represent themselves. They are costly and stand in the way of productivity and merit.
So yes, when you say the Wisconsin government would or is trying to bust the union, nothing would make the taxpayers happier.
All the bullshit articles about the alleged real cost of public union labor aside, the fact is that taxes in the states where public workers are unionized are out of control. Get it? OUT OF CONTROL.....
The unions, their workers and their supporters cannot think they can continue to fleece taxpayers and continue to receive the high wages and gold plated benefits. They can't. The bank accounts of the taxpayers are not bottomless pits.

 

[thereisnospoon]

So those services are no longer needed. Great...why educate children, parents can handle that. Why do hospitals need nurses, a ******* patient should know how to start their own IV. And neighbors can all pitch in and shovel the snow off theirs streets, gather up their garbage and take it to the dump. Problems solved...

Ahh yes..The liberal mainstay called the "all or nothing straw man argument".
No one said anything about eliminating services. You made that up. Stop the shrill nonsense. Get your head out of the sand.
The issue is the taxpayers can no longer afford the high wages and gold plated benefits.
The people are demanding the public sector do with less. Just as the private sector must do with less.
If you and those who support this nonsense wish, you may dig into YOUR pocket and cover the cost. Don't sit there and demand others pay up for what only YOU want.
On public education....Don't dare go there. 10% of all students are home schooled. Another 20% go to private schools. Another 5% go to Charter Schools.
So don't try that shit. Public schools are NOT the only venue fr education. You are right with the teacher's unions in that regard.
I find it laughable when the only people who gripe about school vouchers, private schools and Charter Schools and the ******* teacher's unions.
Trash removal.....Hey genius most towns and cities already have private contractors do that. Most towns have volunteer fire departments. Some small towns and gated communities have private security( sworn officers with powers of arrest) too patrol te streets.
The point heavy government is not necessary. Where I live \our town has 25,000 people. We have limited government. We employ the county sheriff's dept to be our police dept. It cost's $800,000 per year as opposed to a neighboring town with half the population which has it's own PD at a cost of $4million per year. We have private contractors collect the trash, take care of the landscaping in the public areas and the county hires private contractors to maintain the roadways. Our tax rate......a whopping 12 cents per $100 of assessed value.....How about THAT!!!!
No unions. No collective bargaining. No expensive and bulbous municipal budgets and no political patronage or nepotism. No bullshit...We don't want it and we don't need it.
I am running into people who hail from the high tax areas of the Northeast. They come down here and tell me they can buy twice the house 1/3 the money. They say the were paying $1,000 per month in property taxes there and $1,000 a year here.
Gee, why is that?.....
So you go ahead and make that silly "no services" argument. Full of shit is an understatement.
Try again.

No, actually the polarized, all or none, black or white argument is a mainstay of the right. My use of it was to point out the fact those services are required and the need for them will remain a requirement. There are some services I support privatizing, like garbage collection. There are others I oppose privatizing like education, law enforcement or any service where a human life is a stake.

The GOVERNOR of Wisconsin decided the public unions needed to be busted. Which is what this was all about. If you are unaware of this fact, or deny it, you are uninformed or just stupid.

Walker claimed Wisconsin had a $137 million dollar deficit, declared an emergency and passed a little used 'repair' provision to use executive power as an ax.

What you won't hear on Fox News is this:

Walker claims there is a $137 million deficit -- it is not because of a drop in revenues or increases in the cost of state employee contracts, benefits or pensions. It is because Walker and his allies pushed through $140 million in new spending for special-interest groups in January. If the Legislature were simply to rescind Walker’s new spending schemes -- or delay their implementation until they are offset by fresh revenues -- the “crisis” would not exist.

Walker Concocts 'Scoop and Toss' Borrowing Scheme to Pay for $140 Million in Special Interest Spending
Wall Street Bond Holders Win; Wisconsin's Long-Term Debt Rises

Madison-- Republican Gov. Scott Walker plans to pay for $140 million in new special interest spending signed into law in January by extending the state's long term debt in a "scoop and toss" refinancing scheme that will cost untold tens of millions of dollars in additional debt for Wisconsin.

"Scott Walker railed non-stop against budget gimmicks as a candidate and now as governor he's put together a scheme that would make a pay-day lender blush," said Scot Ross, One Wisconsin Now Executive Director. "Gov. Walker created this problem by handing out $140 million in special interest spending to his corporate pals and he's going to make our children pay for it by taking loans the state was ready to pay off and borrow more money on them."

Walker is refusing to provide full accounting of how much in additional costs his "scoop and toss" scheme would cost taxpayers down the road. Since his inauguration in early January, Walker has approved $140 million in new special interest spending that includes:

* $25 million for an economic development fund for job creation that still has $73 million due to a lack of job creation. Walker is creating a $25 million hole which will not create or retain jobs. [Wisconsin Legislative Fiscal Bureau, 1/7/11]

* $48 million for private health savings accounts, which primarily benefit the wealthy. A study from the federal Governmental Accountability Office showed the average adjusted gross income of HSA participants was $139,000 and nearly half of HSA participants reported withdrawing nothing from their HSA, evidence that it is serving as a tax shelter for wealthy participants. [Government Accountability Office, 4/1/08; Wisconsin Legislative Fiscal Bureau, 1/11/11]

* $67 million for a tax shift plan, so ill-conceived that at-best the benefit provided to job creators would be less than a dollar a day per new job, and may be as little as 30 cents a day. [Associated Press, 1/28/01]

Walker Concocts 'Scoop and Toss' Borrowing Scheme to Pay for $140 Million in Special Interest Spending - One Wisconsin Now


BTW, Wisconsin is not a southern state. They have things called snow, frost and blizzards that are annual events during long periods of the year. The need for public works, highway departments and much more frequent road repair are significant factors.

if Walker's office won't release details then why are there so man details.
I'm guessing this information has some accuracy but it's intent has to be called into question.
Now, if health savings accounts are available, and then the writer says "will benefit mainly the rich", why did he not state how he knows this? Why did he not provide the data which states that only the rich can participate. And even if it does, it is THEIR money to save! Got a problem with that?
In any event your post has ZILCH to do with the fact that the public worker unions have to be reined in. Too much money for too long has been drained from the pockets of taxpayers to fund this garbage.
THERE IS NO MORE MONEY.

 

[MikeK]

Some of these are indefensible.

Calling in sick and getting overtime?

Correctional Officer collective bargaining agreements allow officers a practice known as “sick leave stacking.” Officers can call in sick for a shift, receiving 8 hours of sick pay, and then are allowed to work the very next shift, earning time-and-a-half for overtime. This results in the officer receiving 2.5 times his or her rate of pay, while still only working 8 hours.

Remember those teachers taking their students out of class to protest? Now I know why they like collective bargaining.

Due to a 1982 provision of their collective bargaining agreement, Milwaukee Public School teachers actually receive two pensions upon retirement instead of one. The contribution to the second pension is equal to 4.2% of a teacher’s salary, with the school district making 100% of the contribution, just like they do for the first pension. This extra benefit costs taxpayers more than $16 million per year.

I love this one.

Milwaukee Public Schools teacher Megan Sampson was laid off less than one week after being named Outstanding First Year Teacher by the Wisconsin Council of English Teachers. She lost her job because the collective bargaining agreement requires layoffs to be made based on seniority rather than merit. Informed that her union had rejected a lower-cost health care plan, that still would have required zero contribution from teachers, Sampson said, “Given the opportunity, of course I would switch to a different plan to save my job, or the jobs of 10 other teachers."

CARPE DIEM: Collective Bargaining Abuse Examples in Wisconsin

Guess what people, teachers might not be the problem, but their union is.

These are examples of abuse. They, along with any other abusive practice, should be reviewed and corrected. But don't make the grave mistake of tossing out the baby with the bathwater.

Unions are like weapons. They need to be paid attention to and kept clean or they will malfunction.

 

[The T]

Some of these are indefensible.

Calling in sick and getting overtime?

Correctional Officer collective bargaining agreements allow officers a practice known as “sick leave stacking.” Officers can call in sick for a shift, receiving 8 hours of sick pay, and then are allowed to work the very next shift, earning time-and-a-half for overtime. This results in the officer receiving 2.5 times his or her rate of pay, while still only working 8 hours.

Remember those teachers taking their students out of class to protest? Now I know why they like collective bargaining.

Due to a 1982 provision of their collective bargaining agreement, Milwaukee Public School teachers actually receive two pensions upon retirement instead of one. The contribution to the second pension is equal to 4.2% of a teacher’s salary, with the school district making 100% of the contribution, just like they do for the first pension. This extra benefit costs taxpayers more than $16 million per year.

I love this one.

Milwaukee Public Schools teacher Megan Sampson was laid off less than one week after being named Outstanding First Year Teacher by the Wisconsin Council of English Teachers. She lost her job because the collective bargaining agreement requires layoffs to be made based on seniority rather than merit. Informed that her union had rejected a lower-cost health care plan, that still would have required zero contribution from teachers, Sampson said, “Given the opportunity, of course I would switch to a different plan to save my job, or the jobs of 10 other teachers."

CARPE DIEM: Collective Bargaining Abuse Examples in Wisconsin

Guess what people, teachers might not be the problem, but their union is.

"Collective Bargaining" My how LIFE imitates ART...

"Assimilate now...resistance is FUTILE..."

 

[Quantum Windbag]

Some of these are indefensible.

Calling in sick and getting overtime?

Correctional Officer collective bargaining agreements allow officers a practice known as “sick leave stacking.” Officers can call in sick for a shift, receiving 8 hours of sick pay, and then are allowed to work the very next shift, earning time-and-a-half for overtime. This results in the officer receiving 2.5 times his or her rate of pay, while still only working 8 hours.

Remember those teachers taking their students out of class to protest? Now I know why they like collective bargaining.

I love this one.

Milwaukee Public Schools teacher Megan Sampson was laid off less than one week after being named Outstanding First Year Teacher by the Wisconsin Council of English Teachers. She lost her job because the collective bargaining agreement requires layoffs to be made based on seniority rather than merit. Informed that her union had rejected a lower-cost health care plan, that still would have required zero contribution from teachers, Sampson said, “Given the opportunity, of course I would switch to a different plan to save my job, or the jobs of 10 other teachers."

CARPE DIEM: Collective Bargaining Abuse Examples in Wisconsin

Guess what people, teachers might not be the problem, but their union is.

These are examples of abuse. They, along with any other abusive practice, should be reviewed and corrected. But don't make the grave mistake of tossing out the baby with the bathwater.

Unions are like weapons. They need to be paid attention to and kept clean or they will malfunction.

Not the baby with the bathwater argument! OMG, what can I say?

Please tell me how contracts that allow a person to connect two separate pensions from one job is an abuse? Why dismiss the union objecting to non union inmates cutting the grass as an abuse? How does a union contract that gives preference to health care benefits over jobs for their members, without giving their members a say in it, count as an abuse? How does a contract that gives a person a full years pay for a month of work count as an abuse?

Abuses are when a person finds a way to game the system, not when the system is specifically designed to screw the bosses. What, in your expert opinion on babies and bathwater, counts as bathwater in a system that contractually obligates the employer to pay overtime when the employee calls in sick?

 

[The T]

Some of these are indefensible.

Calling in sick and getting overtime?

Remember those teachers taking their students out of class to protest? Now I know why they like collective bargaining.

I love this one.

CARPE DIEM: Collective Bargaining Abuse Examples in Wisconsin

Guess what people, teachers might not be the problem, but their union is.

These are examples of abuse. They, along with any other abusive practice, should be reviewed and corrected. But don't make the grave mistake of tossing out the baby with the bathwater.

Unions are like weapons. They need to be paid attention to and kept clean or they will malfunction.

Not the baby with the bathwater argument! OMG, what can I say?

Please tell me how contracts that allow a person to connect two separate pensions from one job is an abuse? Why dismiss the union objecting to non union inmates cutting the grass as an abuse? How does a union contract that gives preference to health care benefits over jobs for their members, without giving their members a say in it, count as an abuse? How does a contract that gives a person a full years pay for a month of work count as an abuse?

Abuses are when a person finds a way to game the system, not when the system is specifically designed to screw the bosses. What, in your expert opinion on babies and bathwater, counts as bathwater in a system that contractually obligates the employer to pay overtime when the employee calls in sick?

Expect more obfuscation...

 

[Big Fitz]

Our founding fathers were not lovers of corporations and they treated corporations with suspicion equal to or greater than their suspicion of government.

You do realize that most of the founders were businessmen of some sort or another? Not community organizers? Corporations in the modern sense didn't exist then. They were more like the East India Company which was a template for the abominations known as Government Sponsored Enterprises.



Start showing proof of this allegation.



Strict Constructionalist libertarians, yes by the historical use of the word liberal. Modern Liberals (nee communist/socialist/fascists) sure as shit don't.



Your original premise that the founders hated corporations is still wrong and without proof.

It was a corporate tax break to the British East India Company which threatened to decimate small Colonial businesses that enraged patriots enough to dress like Indians and dump tea in Boston harbor, even though rescinding that corporate tax break would likely make tea more expensive for the settlers.

Wow, talk about bass ackwards! The colonists were mad because their tea was taxed an intolerable rate. Then through the policy of mercantilism, made a government monopoly allowing only EITCo tea to be traded or purchased. This didn't tax the independent business owner, it destroyed them. That was it's purpose as well.

I didn't think even public schools got it this wrong before.

Tardtard, you're still a tard among tards.

No problem...BTW, our founding fathers were not libertarians.
Were the Founding Fathers Libertarians? | FrumForum


When American colonists declared independence from England in 1776, they also freed themselves from control by English corporations that extracted their wealth and dominated trade. After fighting a revolution to end this exploitation, our country's founders retained a healthy fear of corporate power and wisely limited corporations exclusively to a business role. Corporations were forbidden from attempting to influence elections, public policy, and other realms of civic society.

Initially, the privilege of incorporation was granted selectively to enable activities that benefited the public, such as construction of roads or canals. Enabling shareholders to profit was seen as a means to that end.

The states also imposed conditions (some of which remain on the books, though unused) like these:

* Corporate charters (licenses to exist) were granted for a limited time and could be revoked promptly for violating laws.

* Corporations could engage only in activities necessary to fulfill their chartered purpose.

* Corporations could not own stock in other corporations nor own any property that was not essential to fulfilling their chartered purpose.

* Corporations were often terminated if they exceeded their authority or caused public harm.

* Owners and managers were responsible for criminal acts committed on the job.

* Corporations could not make any political or charitable contributions nor spend money to influence law-making.

For 100 years after the American Revolution, legislators maintained tight control of the corporate chartering process. Because of widespread public opposition, early legislators granted very few corporate charters, and only after debate. Citizens governed corporations by detailing operating conditions not just in charters but also in state constitutions and state laws. Incorporated businesses were prohibited from taking any action that legislators did not specifically allow.

States also limited corporate charters to a set number of years. Unless a legislature renewed an expiring charter, the corporation was dissolved and its assets were divided among shareholders. Citizen authority clauses limited capitalization, debts, land holdings, and sometimes, even profits. They required a company's accounting books to be turned over to a legislature upon request. The power of large shareholders was limited by scaled voting, so that large and small investors had equal voting rights. Interlocking directorates were outlawed. Shareholders had the right to remove directors at will.

Our Hidden History of Corporations in the United States

Other sources that reinforce our founders strictly regulated corporations.

The History of the Corporation

Early corporations

The Uncooling of America The History of Corporations in the United States

Unequal Protection by Thom Hartmann

Yeah, all your 'sources' are leftwing nutjob agenda sites. I consider their information most suspect as well as your thesis. Not even worth my time.

 

[Bfgrn]

You do realize that most of the founders were businessmen of some sort or another? Not community organizers? Corporations in the modern sense didn't exist then. They were more like the East India Company which was a template for the abominations known as Government Sponsored Enterprises.



Start showing proof of this allegation.



Strict Constructionalist libertarians, yes by the historical use of the word liberal. Modern Liberals (nee communist/socialist/fascists) sure as shit don't.



Your original premise that the founders hated corporations is still wrong and without proof.



Wow, talk about bass ackwards! The colonists were mad because their tea was taxed an intolerable rate. Then through the policy of mercantilism, made a government monopoly allowing only EITCo tea to be traded or purchased. This didn't tax the independent business owner, it destroyed them. That was it's purpose as well.

I didn't think even public schools got it this wrong before.

Tardtard, you're still a tard among tards.

No problem...BTW, our founding fathers were not libertarians.
Were the Founding Fathers Libertarians? | FrumForum


When American colonists declared independence from England in 1776, they also freed themselves from control by English corporations that extracted their wealth and dominated trade. After fighting a revolution to end this exploitation, our country's founders retained a healthy fear of corporate power and wisely limited corporations exclusively to a business role. Corporations were forbidden from attempting to influence elections, public policy, and other realms of civic society.

Initially, the privilege of incorporation was granted selectively to enable activities that benefited the public, such as construction of roads or canals. Enabling shareholders to profit was seen as a means to that end.

The states also imposed conditions (some of which remain on the books, though unused) like these:

* Corporate charters (licenses to exist) were granted for a limited time and could be revoked promptly for violating laws.

* Corporations could engage only in activities necessary to fulfill their chartered purpose.

* Corporations could not own stock in other corporations nor own any property that was not essential to fulfilling their chartered purpose.

* Corporations were often terminated if they exceeded their authority or caused public harm.

* Owners and managers were responsible for criminal acts committed on the job.

* Corporations could not make any political or charitable contributions nor spend money to influence law-making.

For 100 years after the American Revolution, legislators maintained tight control of the corporate chartering process. Because of widespread public opposition, early legislators granted very few corporate charters, and only after debate. Citizens governed corporations by detailing operating conditions not just in charters but also in state constitutions and state laws. Incorporated businesses were prohibited from taking any action that legislators did not specifically allow.

States also limited corporate charters to a set number of years. Unless a legislature renewed an expiring charter, the corporation was dissolved and its assets were divided among shareholders. Citizen authority clauses limited capitalization, debts, land holdings, and sometimes, even profits. They required a company's accounting books to be turned over to a legislature upon request. The power of large shareholders was limited by scaled voting, so that large and small investors had equal voting rights. Interlocking directorates were outlawed. Shareholders had the right to remove directors at will.

Our Hidden History of Corporations in the United States

Other sources that reinforce our founders strictly regulated corporations.

The History of the Corporation

Early corporations

The Uncooling of America The History of Corporations in the United States

Unequal Protection by Thom Hartmann

Yeah, all your 'sources' are leftwing nutjob agenda sites. I consider their information most suspect as well as your thesis. Not even worth my time.

Why am I not surprised? You are more than welcome to bring your own sources into the debate. An intelligent person would do some research and try to bring some proof that disputes my facts.

You choose to just dismiss the truth because it doesn't fit into your agenda, dogma and the propaganda you swallow on a daily basis. So like all cowards, you cut & run.