Climate Change Debate Held.... Very interesting outcome...

[BluePhantom]

Why did your brother disagree with AGW?

Honestly, I don't remember the specifics of his argument. It was several years ago. I seem to recall him mentioning that, in his opinion, the data was being used selectively. He didn't debate the fact that the climate is changing. He simply argued that it was happening due to a natural phase of the planet and the sun and human contributions were absolutely minimal. But again, as I pointed out, it's not his area of expertise. The point is not whether he was/is right or wrong. The point is that he was coerced into showing support and apparently that is pretty common.

Finally, an actual conversation.

Did he consider bringing this to the attention of higher ups or to the media? Did he show you anything that someone else would consider evidence of this coercion?

If he went above the dean's head he didn't mention it, but if his position that climate change research generates a ton of cash for universities is true, then I doubt he would have found a receptive audience. As for anything else, he wasn't in it to make waves, he just wanted his grant so he could conduct his research.

did he get his grant?

He most certainly did.I guess everybody got what they wanted

 

[jc456]

Why did your brother disagree with AGW?

Honestly, I don't remember the specifics of his argument. It was several years ago. I seem to recall him mentioning that, in his opinion, the data was being used selectively. He didn't debate the fact that the climate is changing. He simply argued that it was happening due to a natural phase of the planet and the sun and human contributions were absolutely minimal. But again, as I pointed out, it's not his area of expertise. The point is not whether he was/is right or wrong. The point is that he was coerced into showing support and apparently that is pretty common.

Finally, an actual conversation.

Did he consider bringing this to the attention of higher ups or to the media? Did he show you anything that someone else would consider evidence of this coercion?

If he went above the dean's head he didn't mention it, but if his position that climate change research generates a ton of cash for universities is true, then I doubt he would have found a receptive audience. As for anything else, he wasn't in it to make waves, he just wanted his grant so he could conduct his research.

did he get his grant?

He most certainly did.I guess everybody got what they wanted

what was his research on?

 

[BluePhantom]

He was working on frog tongues and examining how their muscles worked. He was trying to develop a chip that could be implanted in the body that would allow people with muscular dystrophy to use their limbs. He actually was successful with one small glitch. Because computers use binary it resulted in subjects turning their muscles completely on or completely off. So when they took a step, for example, they used every ounce of strength they had and were completely exhausted after two or three steps. He never found a way to solve the problem before he returned to his usual area of expertise (which is rocket propulsion) and turned his research over to someone else. That was several decades ago. I don't know if any advancement was ever done on his work.

 

[jc456]

He was working on frog tongues and examining how their muscles worked. He was trying to develop a chip that could be implanted in the body that would allow people with muscular dystrophy to use their limbs. He actually was successful with one small glitch. Because computers use binary it resulted in subjects turning their muscles completely on or completely off. So when they took a step, for example, they used every ounce of strength they had and were completely exhausted after two or three steps. He never found a way to solve the problem before he returned to his usual area of expertise (which is rocket propulsion) and turned his research over to someone else. That was several decades ago. I don't know if any advancement was ever done on his work.

too bad, I have a grandson who has CP and would have benefited from something like that. He has difficulty using his right hand and walking. Do you know who he handed that off to?

 

[BluePhantom]

He was working on frog tongues and examining how their muscles worked. He was trying to develop a chip that could be implanted in the body that would allow people with muscular dystrophy to use their limbs. He actually was successful with one small glitch. Because computers use binary it resulted in subjects turning their muscles completely on or completely off. So when they took a step, for example, they used every ounce of strength they had and were completely exhausted after two or three steps. He never found a way to solve the problem before he returned to his usual area of expertise (which is rocket propulsion) and turned his research over to someone else. That was several decades ago. I don't know if any advancement was ever done on his work.

too bad, I have a grandson who has CP and would have benefited from something like that. He has difficulty using his right hand and walking. Do you know who he handed that off to?

Not specifically. There was another researcher attempting the same thing but he was studying cockroach muscles (which are quite amazing things, let me tell you). I think he handed it off to him

 

[jc456]

He was working on frog tongues and examining how their muscles worked. He was trying to develop a chip that could be implanted in the body that would allow people with muscular dystrophy to use their limbs. He actually was successful with one small glitch. Because computers use binary it resulted in subjects turning their muscles completely on or completely off. So when they took a step, for example, they used every ounce of strength they had and were completely exhausted after two or three steps. He never found a way to solve the problem before he returned to his usual area of expertise (which is rocket propulsion) and turned his research over to someone else. That was several decades ago. I don't know if any advancement was ever done on his work.

too bad, I have a grandson who has CP and would have benefited from something like that. He has difficulty using his right hand and walking. Do you know who he handed that off to?

Not specifically. There was another researcher attempting the same thing but he was studying cockroach muscles (which are quite amazing things, let me tell you). I think he handed it off to him

thanks!!

 

[BluePhantom]

He was working on frog tongues and examining how their muscles worked. He was trying to develop a chip that could be implanted in the body that would allow people with muscular dystrophy to use their limbs. He actually was successful with one small glitch. Because computers use binary it resulted in subjects turning their muscles completely on or completely off. So when they took a step, for example, they used every ounce of strength they had and were completely exhausted after two or three steps. He never found a way to solve the problem before he returned to his usual area of expertise (which is rocket propulsion) and turned his research over to someone else. That was several decades ago. I don't know if any advancement was ever done on his work.

too bad, I have a grandson who has CP and would have benefited from something like that. He has difficulty using his right hand and walking. Do you know who he handed that off to?

Not specifically. There was another researcher attempting the same thing but he was studying cockroach muscles (which are quite amazing things, let me tell you). I think he handed it off to him

Just a side-note....totally off-topic but a great story about the guy studying the cockroaches. I was visiting my brother in his lab at ASU one Friday...it was Memorial Day Weekend so it was a three day weekend which is an important thing. So the cockroach guy, don't remember his name, comes in all excited about this thing he has rigged up. He was having trouble getting the muscles in the roach to remain at a state of exhaustion so he could examine them. So he took a hamster wheel and motorized it, put a clear side on the open end, and cut a flap in it. The idea was he could put a cockroach on the wheel and exercise it and then push a button which would stop the wheel, open the flap, and the cockroach would run out and fall into a cup of liquid nitrogen so he could preserve the muscle tone at a state of exhaustion and examine it at his leisure. My brother and I were impressed by his ingenuity. That's a pretty sweet idea.

So he was all excited and asked my brother and I to come see how it worked, and it worked like a charm. So these little cockroaches were tearing ass on this hamster wheel and we were amazed by how fast it could run. So we kept increasing the speed until it was spinning as fast as the motor could rotate it. Well we were blown away because this little roach was keeping right up and just trucking away. Well we had to leave but we were curious how long the roach would be able to keep it up so we put a video camera on it and let everything run figuring that we would just look at the time on the video and be able to determine how long the cockroach had been able to keep up that level of running before he lost it and went flipping around the wheel.

So...remember this was a Friday and it was a three day weekend. Tuesday morning my brother called me and woke me up.

"Remember the roach?" he asked

"Yeah", I responded with sincere interest. "How long did it last?"

"The little ****** is still running" he said. I almost fell out of bed.

So they hit the button, froze the little guy, and examined the muscles. They showed no degree of exhaustion at all. They did discover that when they start to get tired, there are holes on their exoskeleton that will open up and allow oxygen to flow directly to the muscles. Cockroach guy repeated the experiment and let another roach run until it died...which was about a month. When he examined it he determined it died of starvation. There was no sign of muscle exhaustion at all. Amazing little critters, huh?

Oh the other little tidbit of totally useless knowledge cockroach guy gave me is that cockroaches absolutely love beer and will drink it without restraint. And yes it apparently makes them drunk and the more drunk they get the more they mate. Surprise, surprise.

Sorry for going off topic, but it's such an interesting story that I had to share it.

 

[jc456]

He was working on frog tongues and examining how their muscles worked. He was trying to develop a chip that could be implanted in the body that would allow people with muscular dystrophy to use their limbs. He actually was successful with one small glitch. Because computers use binary it resulted in subjects turning their muscles completely on or completely off. So when they took a step, for example, they used every ounce of strength they had and were completely exhausted after two or three steps. He never found a way to solve the problem before he returned to his usual area of expertise (which is rocket propulsion) and turned his research over to someone else. That was several decades ago. I don't know if any advancement was ever done on his work.

too bad, I have a grandson who has CP and would have benefited from something like that. He has difficulty using his right hand and walking. Do you know who he handed that off to?

Not specifically. There was another researcher attempting the same thing but he was studying cockroach muscles (which are quite amazing things, let me tell you). I think he handed it off to him

Just a side-note....totally off-topic but a great story about the guy studying the cockroaches. I was visiting my brother in his lab at ASU one Friday...it was Memorial Day Weekend so it was a three day weekend which is an important thing. So the cockroach guy, don't remember his name, comes in all excited about this thing he has rigged up. He was having trouble getting the muscles in the roach to remain at a state of exhaustion so he could examine them. So he took a hamster wheel and motorized it, put a clear side on the open end, and cut a flap in it. The idea was he could put a cockroach on the wheel and exercise it and then push a button which would stop the wheel, open the flap, and the cockroach would run out and fall into a cup of liquid nitrogen so he could preserve the muscle tone at a state of exhaustion and examine it at his leisure. My brother and I were impressed by his ingenuity. That's a pretty sweet idea.

So he was all excited and asked my brother and I to come see how it worked, and it worked like a charm. So these little cockroaches were tearing ass on this hamster wheel and we were amazed by how fast it could run. So we kept increasing the speed until it was spinning as fast as the motor could rotate it. Well we were blown away because this little roach was keeping right up and just trucking away. Well we had to leave but we were curious how long the roach would be able to keep it up so we put a video camera on it and let everything run figuring that we would just look at the time on the video and be able to determine how long the cockroach had been able to keep up that level of running before he lost it and went flipping around the wheel.

So...remember this was a Friday and it was a three day weekend. Tuesday morning my brother called me and woke me up.

"Remember the roach?" he asked

"Yeah", I responded with sincere interest. "How long did it last?"

"The little ****** is still running" he said. I almost fell out of bed.

So they hit the button, froze the little guy, and examined the muscles. They showed no degree of exhaustion at all. They did discover that when they start to get tired, there are holes on their exoskeleton that will open up and allow oxygen to flow directly to the muscles. Cockroach guy repeated the experiment and let another roach run until it died...which was about a month. When he examined it he determined it died of starvation. There was no sign of muscle exhaustion at all. Amazing little critters, huh?

Oh the other little tidbit of totally useless knowledge cockroach guy gave me is that cockroaches absolutely love beer and will drink it without restraint. And yes it apparently makes them drunk and the more drunk they get the more they mate. Surprise, surprise.

Sorry for going off topic, but it's such an interesting story that I had to share it.

Most excellent. Hate to be a little yard, but was curious on how long a normal cockroach ran. I am assuming some chemical influence on the write up.

 

[jon_berzerk]

Climate Change Debate Held.... Very interesting outcome..

6 Phd's were asked to debate the framed subject of the IPCC documents. All were members of the APS.

In January, 2014 the American Physical Society (APS) held a one day workshop on climate change and invited six climatologists to participate. A full transcript of the workshop can be found here. The six speakers are all very eminent climate scientists. The discussion was limited to the physical basis of climate change and atmospheric physics was the predominant topic. Three of the speakers lean to the alarmist view. That is they think we are headed toward a climate catastrophe due to man-made Carbon Dioxide. These are Dr. Held, Dr. Collins, and Dr. Santer. The other three lean to the skeptical view and do not think we are headed to a climate catastrophe caused by man-made Carbon Dioxide. These are Dr. Curry, Dr. Lindzen and Dr. Christy.

Short biographies of each of the speakers can be seen here. Someone new to the climate change debate would have a hard time telling the alarmists from the skeptics from this transcript. They were all very professional and they stuck to the science as their host, Dr. Koonin, requested. Climate science and the debate about it are much more complex than the media, the politicians and public know. This workshop drills down to the root of the disagreements and reading it reveals the considerable uncertainty in estimates of both climate sensitivity to CO2 and the effect of natural long term climate cycles.

Three from each side of the debate and it seems the skeptical side was well prepared while the alarmist side was a bit tongue tide.. Dr Koonin set very strict rules for the debate and all were very professional following his request. The Outcome was not unexpected if your a skeptic. Adhom attacks and appeals to authority were not allowed. They discussed the unfettered science of the issue.

The article is an excellent read and I am finding the transcript very enlightening as specifics were expressed by all. My take on most of the participants is they are in agreement that we really dont know what is causing the climate to change and have not quantified an anthropogenic source at all.

Source

APS Transcript

Daniel Shenton and his group all believe man made global warming is real

 

[jc456]

Climate Change Debate Held.... Very interesting outcome..

6 Phd's were asked to debate the framed subject of the IPCC documents. All were members of the APS.

In January, 2014 the American Physical Society (APS) held a one day workshop on climate change and invited six climatologists to participate. A full transcript of the workshop can be found here. The six speakers are all very eminent climate scientists. The discussion was limited to the physical basis of climate change and atmospheric physics was the predominant topic. Three of the speakers lean to the alarmist view. That is they think we are headed toward a climate catastrophe due to man-made Carbon Dioxide. These are Dr. Held, Dr. Collins, and Dr. Santer. The other three lean to the skeptical view and do not think we are headed to a climate catastrophe caused by man-made Carbon Dioxide. These are Dr. Curry, Dr. Lindzen and Dr. Christy.

Short biographies of each of the speakers can be seen here. Someone new to the climate change debate would have a hard time telling the alarmists from the skeptics from this transcript. They were all very professional and they stuck to the science as their host, Dr. Koonin, requested. Climate science and the debate about it are much more complex than the media, the politicians and public know. This workshop drills down to the root of the disagreements and reading it reveals the considerable uncertainty in estimates of both climate sensitivity to CO2 and the effect of natural long term climate cycles.

Three from each side of the debate and it seems the skeptical side was well prepared while the alarmist side was a bit tongue tide.. Dr Koonin set very strict rules for the debate and all were very professional following his request. The Outcome was not unexpected if your a skeptic. Adhom attacks and appeals to authority were not allowed. They discussed the unfettered science of the issue.

The article is an excellent read and I am finding the transcript very enlightening as specifics were expressed by all. My take on most of the participants is they are in agreement that we really dont know what is causing the climate to change and have not quantified an anthropogenic source at all.

Source

APS Transcript

Daniel Shenton and his group all believe man made global warming is real

Believe is not evidence

 

[Crick]

They're not even the same parts of speech.

 

[jon_berzerk]

Climate Change Debate Held.... Very interesting outcome..

6 Phd's were asked to debate the framed subject of the IPCC documents. All were members of the APS.

In January, 2014 the American Physical Society (APS) held a one day workshop on climate change and invited six climatologists to participate. A full transcript of the workshop can be found here. The six speakers are all very eminent climate scientists. The discussion was limited to the physical basis of climate change and atmospheric physics was the predominant topic. Three of the speakers lean to the alarmist view. That is they think we are headed toward a climate catastrophe due to man-made Carbon Dioxide. These are Dr. Held, Dr. Collins, and Dr. Santer. The other three lean to the skeptical view and do not think we are headed to a climate catastrophe caused by man-made Carbon Dioxide. These are Dr. Curry, Dr. Lindzen and Dr. Christy.

Short biographies of each of the speakers can be seen here. Someone new to the climate change debate would have a hard time telling the alarmists from the skeptics from this transcript. They were all very professional and they stuck to the science as their host, Dr. Koonin, requested. Climate science and the debate about it are much more complex than the media, the politicians and public know. This workshop drills down to the root of the disagreements and reading it reveals the considerable uncertainty in estimates of both climate sensitivity to CO2 and the effect of natural long term climate cycles.

Three from each side of the debate and it seems the skeptical side was well prepared while the alarmist side was a bit tongue tide.. Dr Koonin set very strict rules for the debate and all were very professional following his request. The Outcome was not unexpected if your a skeptic. Adhom attacks and appeals to authority were not allowed. They discussed the unfettered science of the issue.

The article is an excellent read and I am finding the transcript very enlightening as specifics were expressed by all. My take on most of the participants is they are in agreement that we really dont know what is causing the climate to change and have not quantified an anthropogenic source at all.

Source

APS Transcript

Daniel Shenton and his group all believe man made global warming is real

Believe is not evidence

it is to a flat Earther

 

[Billy_Bob]

Climate Change Debate Held.... Very interesting outcome..

6 Phd's were asked to debate the framed subject of the IPCC documents. All were members of the APS.

In January, 2014 the American Physical Society (APS) held a one day workshop on climate change and invited six climatologists to participate. A full transcript of the workshop can be found here. The six speakers are all very eminent climate scientists. The discussion was limited to the physical basis of climate change and atmospheric physics was the predominant topic. Three of the speakers lean to the alarmist view. That is they think we are headed toward a climate catastrophe due to man-made Carbon Dioxide. These are Dr. Held, Dr. Collins, and Dr. Santer. The other three lean to the skeptical view and do not think we are headed to a climate catastrophe caused by man-made Carbon Dioxide. These are Dr. Curry, Dr. Lindzen and Dr. Christy.

Short biographies of each of the speakers can be seen here. Someone new to the climate change debate would have a hard time telling the alarmists from the skeptics from this transcript. They were all very professional and they stuck to the science as their host, Dr. Koonin, requested. Climate science and the debate about it are much more complex than the media, the politicians and public know. This workshop drills down to the root of the disagreements and reading it reveals the considerable uncertainty in estimates of both climate sensitivity to CO2 and the effect of natural long term climate cycles.

Three from each side of the debate and it seems the skeptical side was well prepared while the alarmist side was a bit tongue tide.. Dr Koonin set very strict rules for the debate and all were very professional following his request. The Outcome was not unexpected if your a skeptic. Adhom attacks and appeals to authority were not allowed. They discussed the unfettered science of the issue.

The article is an excellent read and I am finding the transcript very enlightening as specifics were expressed by all. My take on most of the participants is they are in agreement that we really dont know what is causing the climate to change and have not quantified an anthropogenic source at all.

Source

APS Transcript

Daniel Shenton and his group all believe man made global warming is real

Simple belief absent real proof is....... Cult like. The climate is changing, but given the recent changes in the earths axial, tilt, and precision it will not be to warming.

I believe the earth is cyclical in its responses and man has little to do with anything. 18 years 4 months of no warming while CO2 rise continues is ample proof that the meme has serious problems.

 

[Crick]

Your claim that AGW has no empirical evidence is complete nonsense. Air and water temperatures are empirical data. CO2 levels are empirical data. Ice and snow mass are empirical data. The isotopic analysis showing all the excess CO2 of human origin are empirical data. The TSI measurements showing an insufficiency to have caused the observed warming are empirical data. CTD drops and direct measurements of pCO2, pH and aragonite saturation are empirical data.

Your position is completely indefensible.

 

[jon_berzerk]

Climate Change Debate Held.... Very interesting outcome..

6 Phd's were asked to debate the framed subject of the IPCC documents. All were members of the APS.

In January, 2014 the American Physical Society (APS) held a one day workshop on climate change and invited six climatologists to participate. A full transcript of the workshop can be found here. The six speakers are all very eminent climate scientists. The discussion was limited to the physical basis of climate change and atmospheric physics was the predominant topic. Three of the speakers lean to the alarmist view. That is they think we are headed toward a climate catastrophe due to man-made Carbon Dioxide. These are Dr. Held, Dr. Collins, and Dr. Santer. The other three lean to the skeptical view and do not think we are headed to a climate catastrophe caused by man-made Carbon Dioxide. These are Dr. Curry, Dr. Lindzen and Dr. Christy.

Short biographies of each of the speakers can be seen here. Someone new to the climate change debate would have a hard time telling the alarmists from the skeptics from this transcript. They were all very professional and they stuck to the science as their host, Dr. Koonin, requested. Climate science and the debate about it are much more complex than the media, the politicians and public know. This workshop drills down to the root of the disagreements and reading it reveals the considerable uncertainty in estimates of both climate sensitivity to CO2 and the effect of natural long term climate cycles.

Three from each side of the debate and it seems the skeptical side was well prepared while the alarmist side was a bit tongue tide.. Dr Koonin set very strict rules for the debate and all were very professional following his request. The Outcome was not unexpected if your a skeptic. Adhom attacks and appeals to authority were not allowed. They discussed the unfettered science of the issue.

The article is an excellent read and I am finding the transcript very enlightening as specifics were expressed by all. My take on most of the participants is they are in agreement that we really dont know what is causing the climate to change and have not quantified an anthropogenic source at all.

Source

APS Transcript

Daniel Shenton and his group all believe man made global warming is real

Simple belief absent real proof is....... Cult like. The climate is changing, but given the recent changes in the earths axial, tilt, and precision it will not be to warming.

I believe the earth is cyclical in its responses and man has little to do with anything. 18 years 4 months of no warming while CO2 rise continues is ample proof that the meme has serious problems.

yes but that does not matter to flatEarthers like Daniel Shenton

 

[jc456]

Your claim that AGW has no empirical evidence is complete nonsense. Air and water temperatures are empirical data. CO2 levels are empirical data. Ice and snow mass are empirical data. The isotopic analysis showing all the excess CO2 of human origin are empirical data. The TSI measurements showing an insufficiency to have caused the observed warming are empirical data. CTD drops and direct measurements of pCO2, pH and aragonite saturation are empirical data.

Your position is completely indefensible.

over and over and over, you post the same dumb silliness over and over. Crick, there is no empirical evidence to support your claim. I will agree there is fudged data to create the illusion of such, but you have failed at every attempt to provide the data that can justify your nonsense. How many more times will we have to endure your lack of creativeness to prove your point. 400 PPM of CO2 we all agree is there. What you have failed to show is the added 120 PPM did anything to climates or temperatures. none. No experimental evidence, nor any empirical evidence. Zip, nadda, zero. Now do you have the temperature data that backs your post?

 

[Crick]

So you're claiming that the temperature, the snow and ice extent, the isotopic CO2 analysis, TSI measurements, aragonite saturation and the ocean pH data are not empirical. Is that right? You're claiming they've all been falsified, is that right?

I post the same stuff over and over again because facts tend to be constant.

 

[jc456]

So you're claiming that the temperature, the snow and ice extent, the isotopic CO2 analysis, TSI measurements, aragonite saturation and the ocean pH data are not empirical. Is that right? You're claiming they've all been falsified, is that right?

I post the same stuff over and over again because facts tend to be constant.

No your posts are lies and I don't accept them

 

[Billy_Bob]

So you're claiming that the temperature, the snow and ice extent, the isotopic CO2 analysis, TSI measurements, aragonite saturation and the ocean pH data are not empirical. Is that right? You're claiming they've all been falsified, is that right?

I post the same stuff over and over again because facts tend to be constant.

Constantly bull shit..

Item #1. CO2 has been overstated and its fractional time in our atmosphere is less than 7 years. The IPCC over estimated the fraction time by a factor of 8-10. Even the reduced 30 year estimate has been shown clearly false.

Item #2. TSI is only PART of the suns total output. Total Solar Irradience is visible light and short areas above and below that area. Gravitational waves and solar wind are other areas of energy transference that you seem to like to ignore.

Item #3 Ocean PH has been shown to oscillate seasonally and in yearly jumps depending on Solar output and status of the circulations being warm or cold. The current modeled rise is statistically insignificant when measured against actual measurements which show these known natural variation shifts.

Its amazing how you throw out the items which show your cult agenda false or simply ignore them.

 

[Crick]

My god what a ******* idiot!!!