Class War Illustrated

[sinister59]

Really? Well please enlighten me. Tell me the difference between the two.

One is charity, one is not voluntary which is the antithesis of what "charity" means.

And the difference between the two to the recipient?

so you think everyone not rich is on welfare ? really ?
I'm not , and unlike yourself I'm not rich either .

 

[G.T.]

While spending may certainly be mis-managed by government in many instances, I would much rather have them do the management than Wall Street or big business. You see, their mission is only self-interest through successful legal exploitation. Big business does not have at its core an interest in the betterment of society while the government is elected by we the people and their ostensible mission is to serve the people. We the people simply have to pay attention to our vote and who and what we vote on. The better voters we are the better government will do their job; there is a direct relationship there. We have no such control over big business, small business, or Wall Street.

to the contrary...

We can only control who is in office...but we can not controil what they do while in office.

We can easily control any business we want....basic economics. We dictate price and we dictate who stays in business and who goes out of business.

You have a very starnge mindset.

The underlined is not true. Organizing a boycott of, say, Walmart ...

may be easy for you. Not so much for the working poor who go there for the lowest prices in town. And it's the same all across the board, the bigger the business, the less they can charge and the more business they're cropping up due to the increased demand that that creates. Organizing a boycott because they're sleeping with the WhiteHouse is not an easy task.....especially since big business has the available Capital to out flank whatever effort you have visa vie the media that they can shovel money into.

 

[sinister59]

It is Foxfrye stating that charity is *only* Voluntary. I'm saying, by his standard then, Welfare is not charity as it is not voluntary.

He is correct.

So what do we call welfare seeing as to the recipirent it is no different than charity...but by definition, it is not charity?

It is an interesting question and quite possiboly would be a valid argument in a court of law.

Although...do not get me wrong....I have no issue with welfare. It has bec9me a way of life and it keeps our poor living at a much higher standard of living than any other country's poor....

But on the flip siude, I do not believe it is necessary as I am confident Americans would never let a neighbor starve.

Well you'd be wrong. An over abundance of starving poor is what lead to welfare.

we have a ot of welfare which one are you talking about ? corporate farmers ? rich people ? or just don't like poor or out of work people ?

 

[Foxfyre]

While spending may certainly be mis-managed by government in many instances, I would much rather have them do the management than Wall Street or big business. You see, their mission is only self-interest through successful legal exploitation. Big business does not have at its core an interest in the betterment of society while the government is elected by we the people and their ostensible mission is to serve the people. We the people simply have to pay attention to our vote and who and what we vote on. The better voters we are the better government will do their job; there is a direct relationship there. We have no such control over big business, small business, or Wall Street.

But the Government has been infiltrated by big business and one hand is simply feeding the other. They are in bed.

With Big Business. We can picket it, boycott it, or simply choose other products and services. And because its survival depends on its bottom line, Big Business has every reason to satisfy its customers by providing what the customer wants.

Big Government has interest in only keeping happy or fooled those who elect them to public office. Like Big Business they also have to keep those satisfied, but they have the power to take from others in order to do that. Big Government is no more altruistic or service minded than Big Business and once they know they can use our money to buy our vote, their primary interest is in increasing their own power, prestige, influence, and personal fortunes.

It is because Big Government can forcibly confiscate our property, power, feedoms, options, and opportunities in order to buy enough votes to keep themselves in power, I far more trust Big Business than I do Big Government.

Further if you limit the power of Big Government to securing the rights of the people, it is much more likely to focus on that and Big Business will be forced to be even more customer friendly and much more competitive and therefore much less of a problem.

 

[G.T.]

While spending may certainly be mis-managed by government in many instances, I would much rather have them do the management than Wall Street or big business. You see, their mission is only self-interest through successful legal exploitation. Big business does not have at its core an interest in the betterment of society while the government is elected by we the people and their ostensible mission is to serve the people. We the people simply have to pay attention to our vote and who and what we vote on. The better voters we are the better government will do their job; there is a direct relationship there. We have no such control over big business, small business, or Wall Street.

But the Government has been infiltrated by big business and one hand is simply feeding the other. They are in bed.

With Big Business. We can picket it, boycott it, or simply choose other products and services. And because its survival depends on its bottom line, Big Business has every reason to satisfy its customers by providing what the customer wants.

Big Government has interest in only keeping happy or fooled those who elect them to public office. Like Big Business they also have to keep those satisfied, but they have the power to take from others in order to do that. Big Government is no more altruistic or service minded than Big Business and once they know they can use our money to buy our vote, their primary interest is in increasing their own power, prestige, influence, and personal fortunes.

It is because Big Government can forcibly confiscate our property, power, feedoms, options, and opportunities in order to buy enough votes to keep themselves in power, I far more trust Big Business than I do Big Government.

Further if you limit the power of Big Government to securing the rights of the people, it is much more likely to focus on that and Big Business will be forced to be even more customer friendly and much more competitive and therefore much less of a problem.

Big Business lines the pockets of Politicians to do its bidding. I think that is wrong. That's my only point in even mentioning it.

 

[G.T.]

He is correct.

So what do we call welfare seeing as to the recipirent it is no different than charity...but by definition, it is not charity?

It is an interesting question and quite possiboly would be a valid argument in a court of law.

Although...do not get me wrong....I have no issue with welfare. It has bec9me a way of life and it keeps our poor living at a much higher standard of living than any other country's poor....

But on the flip siude, I do not believe it is necessary as I am confident Americans would never let a neighbor starve.

Well you'd be wrong. An over abundance of starving poor is what lead to welfare.

we have a ot of welfare which one are you talking about ? corporate farmers ? rich people ? or just don't like poor or out of work people ?

I don't follow where you'd get the highlighted piece.

 

[Jarhead]

While spending may certainly be mis-managed by government in many instances, I would much rather have them do the management than Wall Street or big business. You see, their mission is only self-interest through successful legal exploitation. Big business does not have at its core an interest in the betterment of society while the government is elected by we the people and their ostensible mission is to serve the people. We the people simply have to pay attention to our vote and who and what we vote on. The better voters we are the better government will do their job; there is a direct relationship there. We have no such control over big business, small business, or Wall Street.

to the contrary...

We can only control who is in office...but we can not controil what they do while in office.

We can easily control any business we want....basic economics. We dictate price and we dictate who stays in business and who goes out of business.

You have a very starnge mindset.

The underlined is not true. Organizing a boycott of, say, Walmart ...

may be easy for you. Not so much for the working poor who go there for the lowest prices in town. And it's the same all across the board, the bigger the business, the less they can charge and the more business they're cropping up due to the increased demand that that creates. Organizing a boycott because they're sleeping with the WhiteHouse is not an easy task.....especially since big business has the available Capital to out flank whatever effort you have visa vie the media that they can shovel money into.

I amnot referring to boycott.
If comnpany A wants to raise their prices above that of the rest of the oligopoly, consumers will stop buying from them and they will go under.

You use walmart as an example....why would anyone want to boycott a store that sells products at a lower price?

You know...people complain about Walmart and how it is ruining the ma and pa shops...and those same people talk about how the ma and pa shops pay their emplyees better and give them better benefits....and they should thereofre be protected...

But the obvious is being ignored....

THEY are not paying the higher salaries....their patrons are...and that is why the prices are so much greater in a ma and pa shop...yes, large stores buy in quantity and that also contributes....but every indusrty has co-op progrmas for purchasing...I now this as I am a business planner....the local pharmacy can AND DOES buy through a trade co-op program and gets products at a good price....but their prices on the shelves are higher becuase they pay higher salaries.....

And that makes them heros? Why? Becuase they have their customers actually paying the higher salaries?

Sorry...I dont buy it....I see it everyday in my business.....but whatever....it is what it is.

 

[MitchMan]

Agreed, G.T., you are 100% correct. Big business has indeed infiltrated our government, big time. It is even in the Supreme Court! We as a people can do something about. Actually, in my view, the reason for the infiltration is that we the people allowed it to be infiltrated by our vote. We voted for the presidents that stacked the Supreme Court, we voted as a people for Dick Cheney and George Bush 1 & 2, Ronald Reagan, and Bill Clinton. We voted for the right wing congresses that allowed big business to lobby freeely and do big business's bidding. We voted for the congress and Bill Clinton to provide big business with the incentives to go out of the country and forsake our workers for the cheap labor abroad, we voted for George W. that disallowed the categorizing of credit swaps and derivatives as insurance businesses that should have been subject to insurance industry restrictions, requirements, and reporting, we voted for congress that allows monopolistic behavior, succumbing to pressure from business to privatize much of what should be and used to be performed by the government, we voted for the congress and presidents that favored unseemly tax breaks for the rich.

The government failures are a direct reflection of our poor voting choices. If I try to fix my car myself or if I take my car to a cheap yet lousy auto mechanic and my car fails on the road right away, is that a bad car? Are all cars bad?

 

[sinister59]

But the Government has been infiltrated by big business and one hand is simply feeding the other. They are in bed.

With Big Business. We can picket it, boycott it, or simply choose other products and services. And because its survival depends on its bottom line, Big Business has every reason to satisfy its customers by providing what the customer wants.

Big Government has interest in only keeping happy or fooled those who elect them to public office. Like Big Business they also have to keep those satisfied, but they have the power to take from others in order to do that. Big Government is no more altruistic or service minded than Big Business and once they know they can use our money to buy our vote, their primary interest is in increasing their own power, prestige, influence, and personal fortunes.

It is because Big Government can forcibly confiscate our property, power, feedoms, options, and opportunities in order to buy enough votes to keep themselves in power, I far more trust Big Business than I do Big Government.

Further if you limit the power of Big Government to securing the rights of the people, it is much more likely to focus on that and Big Business will be forced to be even more customer friendly and much more competitive and therefore much less of a problem.

Big Business lines the pockets of Politicians to do its bidding. I think that is wrong. That's my only point in even mentioning it.

lobbyist do not work for the government .

 

[G.T.]

to the contrary...

We can only control who is in office...but we can not controil what they do while in office.

We can easily control any business we want....basic economics. We dictate price and we dictate who stays in business and who goes out of business.

You have a very starnge mindset.

The underlined is not true. Organizing a boycott of, say, Walmart ...

may be easy for you. Not so much for the working poor who go there for the lowest prices in town. And it's the same all across the board, the bigger the business, the less they can charge and the more business they're cropping up due to the increased demand that that creates. Organizing a boycott because they're sleeping with the WhiteHouse is not an easy task.....especially since big business has the available Capital to out flank whatever effort you have visa vie the media that they can shovel money into.

I amnot referring to boycott.
If comnpany A wants to raise their prices above that of the rest of the oligopoly, consumers will stop buying from them and they will go under.

You use walmart as an example....why would anyone want to boycott a store that sells products at a lower price?

You know...people complain about Walmart and how it is ruining the ma and pa shops...and those same people talk about how the ma and pa shops pay their emplyees better and give them better benefits....and they should thereofre be protected...

But the obvious is being ignored....

THEY are not paying the higher salaries....their patrons are...and that is why the prices are so much greater in a ma and pa shop...yes, large stores buy in quantity and that also contributes....but every indusrty has co-op progrmas for purchasing...I now this as I am a business planner....the local pharmacy can AND DOES buy through a trade co-op program and gets products at a good price....but their prices on the shelves are higher becuase they pay higher salaries.....

And that makes them heros? Why? Becuase they have their customers actually paying the higher salaries?

Sorry...I dont buy it....I see it everyday in my business.....but whatever....it is what it is.

This has nothing at all to do with my post.

My post was about the repurcussions of Big Business buying off politicians for favorable policy.

You responded to that notion by saying we can easily control Businesses.

I don't think that the working poor will stop shopping Walmart (for example, not REAL mind you) because they did some back-door deal with such and such politician to drive tax dollars somewhere that favors THEM. My opinion is that they'd HAVE no real repurcussion, Gigantor businesses have more money then they know what to do with. For every boycott commercial, there could be 11000 non boycott commercials.

 

[sinister59]

Well you'd be wrong. An over abundance of starving poor is what lead to welfare.

we have a ot of welfare which one are you talking about ? corporate farmers ? rich people ? or just don't like poor or out of work people ?

I don't follow where you'd get the highlighted piece.

me neither , I never seen that happen before .
really ? well food pantries are out . grocery stores want give food , and how about a place out of the open ? you willing to take in a homeless person or two ?

 

[G.T.]

Agreed, G.T., you are 100% correct. Big business has indeed infiltrated our government, big time. It is even in the Supreme Court! We as a people can do something about. Actually, in my view, the reason for the infiltration is that we the people allowed it to be infiltrated by our vote. We voted for the presidents that stacked the Supreme Court, we voted as a people for Dick Cheney and George Bush 1 & 2, Ronald Reagan, and Bill Clinton. We voted for the right wing congresses that allowed big business to lobby freeely and do big business's bidding. We voted for the congress and Bill Clinton to provide big business with the incentives to go out of the country and forsake our workers for the cheap labor abroad, we voted for George W. that disallowed the categorizing of credit swaps and derivatives as insurance businesses that should have been subject to insurance industry restrictions, requirements, and reporting, we voted for congress that allows monopolistic behavior, succumbing to pressure from business to privatize much of what should be and used to be performed by the government, we voted for the congress and presidents that favored unseemly tax breaks for the rich.

The government failures are a direct reflection of our poor voting choices. If I try to fix my car myself or if I take my car to a cheap yet lousy auto mechanic and my car fails on the road right away, is that a bad car? Are all cars bad?

Well, you need money to even get elected, so I don't forsee how we'd fix it with our vote if we don't have the "big guy's" money behind us like the big guys do.

 

[Jarhead]

Agreed, G.T., you are 100% correct. Big business has indeed infiltrated our government, big time. It is even in the Supreme Court! We as a people can do something about. Actually, in my view, the reason for the infiltration is that we the people allowed it to be infiltrated by our vote. We voted for the presidents that stacked the Supreme Court, we voted as a people for Dick Cheney and George Bush 1 & 2, Ronald Reagan, and Bill Clinton. We voted for the right wing congresses that allowed big business to lobby freeely and do big business's bidding. We voted for the congress and Bill Clinton to provide big business with the incentives to go out of the country and forsake our workers for the cheap labor abroad, we voted for George W. that disallowed the categorizing of credit swaps and derivatives as insurance businesses that should have been subject to insurance industry restrictions, requirements, and reporting, we voted for congress that allows monopolistic behavior, succumbing to pressure from business to privatize much of what should be and used to be performed by the government, we voted for the congress and presidents that favored unseemly tax breaks for the rich.

The government failures are a direct reflection of our poor voting choices. If I try to fix my car myself or if I take my car to a cheap yet lousy auto mechanic and my car fails on the road right away, is that a bad car? Are all cars bad?

You seem to be intelligent but then you throw in terms like "right wing" and "tax breaks for the rich" and you then sound like you are regurgitating left wing talking points.

 

[G.T.]

With Big Business. We can picket it, boycott it, or simply choose other products and services. And because its survival depends on its bottom line, Big Business has every reason to satisfy its customers by providing what the customer wants.

Big Government has interest in only keeping happy or fooled those who elect them to public office. Like Big Business they also have to keep those satisfied, but they have the power to take from others in order to do that. Big Government is no more altruistic or service minded than Big Business and once they know they can use our money to buy our vote, their primary interest is in increasing their own power, prestige, influence, and personal fortunes.

It is because Big Government can forcibly confiscate our property, power, feedoms, options, and opportunities in order to buy enough votes to keep themselves in power, I far more trust Big Business than I do Big Government.

Further if you limit the power of Big Government to securing the rights of the people, it is much more likely to focus on that and Big Business will be forced to be even more customer friendly and much more competitive and therefore much less of a problem.

Big Business lines the pockets of Politicians to do its bidding. I think that is wrong. That's my only point in even mentioning it.

lobbyist do not work for the government .

That's not what I meant by bidding.

 

[Jarhead]

we have a ot of welfare which one are you talking about ? corporate farmers ? rich people ? or just don't like poor or out of work people ?

I don't follow where you'd get the highlighted piece.

me neither , I never seen that happen before .
really ? well food pantries are out . grocery stores want give food , and how about a place out of the open ? you willing to take in a homeless person or two ?

????

Is it me..?

I cant figure out what the heck you are saying.

Never mind...I got it...just tokk a couple of readings to get it.
Sorry.

 

[sinister59]

Agreed, G.T., you are 100% correct. Big business has indeed infiltrated our government, big time. It is even in the Supreme Court! We as a people can do something about. Actually, in my view, the reason for the infiltration is that we the people allowed it to be infiltrated by our vote. We voted for the presidents that stacked the Supreme Court, we voted as a people for Dick Cheney and George Bush 1 & 2, Ronald Reagan, and Bill Clinton. We voted for the right wing congresses that allowed big business to lobby freeely and do big business's bidding. We voted for the congress and Bill Clinton to provide big business with the incentives to go out of the country and forsake our workers for the cheap labor abroad, we voted for George W. that disallowed the categorizing of credit swaps and derivatives as insurance businesses that should have been subject to insurance industry restrictions, requirements, and reporting, we voted for congress that allows monopolistic behavior, succumbing to pressure from business to privatize much of what should be and used to be performed by the government, we voted for the congress and presidents that favored unseemly tax breaks for the rich.

The government failures are a direct reflection of our poor voting choices. If I try to fix my car myself or if I take my car to a cheap yet lousy auto mechanic and my car fails on the road right away, is that a bad car? Are all cars bad?

Well, you need money to even get elected, so I don't forsee how we'd fix it with our vote if we don't have the "big guy's" money behind us like the big guys do.

a republican years ago [during bush term] said only the eleat should be able to vote , the average American is to stupid .

I guess you agree ?

 

[G.T.]

Agreed, G.T., you are 100% correct. Big business has indeed infiltrated our government, big time. It is even in the Supreme Court! We as a people can do something about. Actually, in my view, the reason for the infiltration is that we the people allowed it to be infiltrated by our vote. We voted for the presidents that stacked the Supreme Court, we voted as a people for Dick Cheney and George Bush 1 & 2, Ronald Reagan, and Bill Clinton. We voted for the right wing congresses that allowed big business to lobby freeely and do big business's bidding. We voted for the congress and Bill Clinton to provide big business with the incentives to go out of the country and forsake our workers for the cheap labor abroad, we voted for George W. that disallowed the categorizing of credit swaps and derivatives as insurance businesses that should have been subject to insurance industry restrictions, requirements, and reporting, we voted for congress that allows monopolistic behavior, succumbing to pressure from business to privatize much of what should be and used to be performed by the government, we voted for the congress and presidents that favored unseemly tax breaks for the rich.

The government failures are a direct reflection of our poor voting choices. If I try to fix my car myself or if I take my car to a cheap yet lousy auto mechanic and my car fails on the road right away, is that a bad car? Are all cars bad?

Well, you need money to even get elected, so I don't forsee how we'd fix it with our vote if we don't have the "big guy's" money behind us like the big guys do.

a republican years ago [during bush term] said only the eleat should be able to vote , the average American is to stupid .

I guess you agree ?

Umm, no. I am saying that people with gigantic money to advertise are crushing everyone else...

then....

once they get into office, they do the bidding for the people with the Dough who put them there.

 

[Foxfyre]

But the Government has been infiltrated by big business and one hand is simply feeding the other. They are in bed.

With Big Business. We can picket it, boycott it, or simply choose other products and services. And because its survival depends on its bottom line, Big Business has every reason to satisfy its customers by providing what the customer wants.

Big Government has interest in only keeping happy or fooled those who elect them to public office. Like Big Business they also have to keep those satisfied, but they have the power to take from others in order to do that. Big Government is no more altruistic or service minded than Big Business and once they know they can use our money to buy our vote, their primary interest is in increasing their own power, prestige, influence, and personal fortunes.

It is because Big Government can forcibly confiscate our property, power, feedoms, options, and opportunities in order to buy enough votes to keep themselves in power, I far more trust Big Business than I do Big Government.

Further if you limit the power of Big Government to securing the rights of the people, it is much more likely to focus on that and Big Business will be forced to be even more customer friendly and much more competitive and therefore much less of a problem.

Big Business lines the pockets of Politicians to do its bidding. I think that is wrong. That's my only point in even mentioning it.

Which is not the fault of Big Business. It is the fault of the politicans who are doing the lining of the pockets. For that reason you should fear and disapprove of government far more than big business.

Limit the power of the federal government to its constitutional responsibilities of securing and defending the rights of the people, and it will not be able to line anybody's pockets and the problem is solved.

 

[sinister59]

Well that depends. Did that person ever pay taxes before? Will that person ever pay taxes again?

As far as I know, Welfare's not ruled by the SCOTUS as UnConstitutional, so . . . . . I'd call it the Government doing its job.

You can not define a noun with a verb.

Welfarew is not an action....so whereas you consider it government doing its job....that is fine...but I am curious what you see welfare as if it is not charity.

What should the recipient consider it?

(the answer to that is likely the best way to define welfare)

It is Foxfrye stating that charity is *only* Voluntary. I'm saying, by his standard then, Welfare is not charity as it is not voluntary.

do you mean its mandatory ? you don't apply for it ? they just give it ?

 

[MitchMan]

Foxfye, I fundamentally disagree with you. My opionon is that you seem to think that the government is a boogey man, this entity that has a life of its own, bad and corrupt by nature and inclination, as though it is a genetic thing without any cure possible. I disagree with that completely. I haven't given up on democracy, I believe in democracy, but I can only conclude that you don't think that democracy works. But, a successul democracy requires work by the electorate. It requires an electorate that pays attention and votes intelligently and from an accurately informed position. That isn't always a given, I will admit. Your fatalistic view of government (which is the primary creation of our democracy), the most successful democracy in history, is that business would be a better governor of the people? Well, with all the freedom and tax breaks our polititions have given big business since and beginning with Reagan, how has big business been doing for the bottom 85%? the Bottom 60%, the bottom 40%?

There are good people out there, capable people, dedicated people, moral people, but we need to vote for them, not others. We as a people have been asleep at the wheel. With the effective permission of the American public, we have allowed big business to infiltrate the government and the political process. The insistance of the right wing that believes in unbridled lack of regulation, that anything that business wants is what the country needs is a giant mistake. It directly led to the recent economic recession, the .com bubble, and the S&L debacle. The right wingers were duped (and continue to be so) even as we witness the fall out of such folly. Don't get me wrong, there are many Democrat polititions and a couple of Democrat presidents that contributed directly to the mess as well.

BTW, trusting big business is what has gotten us into this recession. It was republicans that are to blame for the most part, not just because it happened on their watch, it is because of there abrogration of the true role of government to govern, but instead they let big business have their way. The Supreme Court has made it much worse with their recent ruling.

A huge fix to the successful buyout of the polititions by big business is to reverse the Supreme Court ruling, pull back and restrict the lobbyists, dissallow any retiring congressman from becoming a lobbyist, greatly curb all contributions by all big business and from lobbyists (corps are not people/person - they have no soul and the only motive is a self interest and profit motive - mercenary that is- not appropriate motivation for supporting elected officials to be), and analyze and appropriately restrict future income from big business to retiring politicians. Direct Personal Monetary benefits from business should not be a motive either in appearance or in fact for an elected official.

Lastly, we the people have to do a better job as voters, much better.