CDZ Christian wedding photographer sues-NY over nondiscrimination law

[danielpalos]

The Buyer IS NOT FORCED to use that business!

Where are you getting this?

The seller is not forced to operate on a for-profit basis instead of a for-morals basis in public accommodation. Operating in public accommodation is not a right, it is a privilege, and that privilege is contingent upon following the laws established for public accommodation which that seller agreed to do in order to operate in public accommodation. Why is the seller bearing false witness to that public act when the seller originally applied for a license or permit to operate in public accommodation?

And, the buyer also has a First Amendment which any seller must also respect in public accommodation.

§2000a (a)All persons shall be entitled to the full and equal enjoyment of the goods, services, facilities, privileges, advantages, and accommodations of any place of public accommodation, as defined in this section, without discrimination on the ground of race, color, religion, or national origin. 42 U.S.C.

 

[danielpalos]

If she owns her own business, then I agree with the photographer, even though I'm not religious, it is her right since it's HER business.

As long as she isn't engaging in anything illegal that is causing harm to anyone, or faking her business documents, then she can do with HER business what she pleases!! And if she wants to specialize in straight, christian weddings......that's HER choice, not the governments!

This is the PERFECT example of cities/states turning communist.

The issue is, the seller is operating in public not private accommodation and had to get a license to operate. The seller agreed to not discriminate in order to operate in public accommodation. There is nothing stopping the seller from operating from home instead of public accommodation where location, location, location matters.

§2000a (a)All persons shall be entitled to the full and equal enjoyment of the goods, services, facilities, privileges, advantages, and accommodations of any place of public accommodation, as defined in this section, without discrimination on the ground of race, color, religion, or national origin. 42 U.S.C.

danielpalos

1. First, the business is NOT discriminating "against serving the customer". Because the customer can still get photography services for events or activities or subjects the business provides for any and all customers. This could include pet photography, portraits, school photos, holiday cards, etc.

The business is required to "serve all customers" but not required to serve them a product or service the business does not provide.

2. The business is only declining specific services that are against the owner's beliefs. That is discriminating in selecting what TYPE of services or events to cover.

The same POLICY applies to ALL CUSTOMERS.

Any customer, LGBT or not or other, can pay for and hire the advertised services.

NO customer, whether heterosexual or LGBT or other affiliation, can get "same sex" wedding/marriage services because it is THAT ACTIVITY or RITUAL that violates the beliefs of the business owner.

ALL customers would be refused this service because the business would not provide it to ANYONE.

If the business only provided "same sex wedding" photography to Conservatives but not to Liberals, they would be discriminating "because other people ARE getting same sex weddings covered."

But NOBODY is getting those services!

You miss the point. Discriminating based on religious beliefs is illegal in public accommodation.

 

[emilynghiem]

The Buyer IS NOT FORCED to use that business!

Where are you getting this?

The seller is not forced to operate on a for-profit basis instead of a for-morals basis in public accommodation. Operating in public accommodation is not a right, it is a privilege, and that privilege is contingent upon following the laws established for public accommodation which that seller agreed to do in order to operate in public accommodation. Why is the seller bearing false witness to that public act when the seller originally applied for a license or permit to operate in public accommodation?

And, the buyer also has a First Amendment which any seller must also respect in public accommodation.

§2000a (a)All persons shall be entitled to the full and equal enjoyment of the goods, services, facilities, privileges, advantages, and accommodations of any place of public accommodation, as defined in this section, without discrimination on the ground of race, color, religion, or national origin. 42 U.S.C.

I do not where you are getting the idea of a "for morals" organization

A Christian bookstore can be open to the public as a business, selling a certain genre of "spiritual" or "faith based" goods, and NOT be registered as "religious."

Can you show me any laws or regulations citing a distinct "for morals" type of "requirement" or "category."

How can Christian bookstores run as businesses, open to the public?

Where, in any law, is there any such requirement on businesses that specifically sell "faith based" materials?

I thought you were taking the idea that "religious organizations" are different from regular businesses, but making a leap in assuming that "businesses can't express or make decisions in advertising related to spiritual or religious beliefs" and you were calling this "for morals."

I agree with you that religious organizations need to file for separate business operations in order to serve the public.

But this does NOT mean businesses can't tie in religious or spiritual beliefs in with their merchandise, marketing or public statements.

And I do NOT understand where you are getting or "making up" any such rule or category called "for morals."

If you are in CA, and I am in TX, and the lawsuit over the website regulations is in NY, maybe we need to consult a civil rights professional who can cite the laws in all 3 states to clarify what you mean by "for morals" and the rules on businesses.

I understand
religious nonprofits can't run businesses

But I have never heard of any such restriction on businesses or their owners not being able to express their beliefs.

They just can't expect to collect "tax deductible charity or donations" as religious nonprofits or churches do.

But there are no restrictions I have ever heard of against a business making decisions or statements about their faith based services or goods they provide.

Can you please cite ANY law (in CA or any state) restricting a business from faith based statements or advertising that they sell faith based materials?

 

[danielpalos]

Christian bookstore can be open to the public as a business, selling a certain genre of "spiritual" or "faith based" goods, and NOT be registered as "religious."

I agree to disagree.

Are religious entities covered by Title III of the ADA?
No, religious entities are completely exempt from Title III of the ADA. All of their facilities, programs, and activities, whether they are religious or secular in nature, are exempt.

Are religious entities’ programs covered by Title III if they are open to the general public?
No. For example, if a religious entity controls a school that is open to both members and non-members of the religious entity, the school is still considered a religious entity and is exempt from Title III. Likewise, if a religious entity holds an event, such as a festival or performance, which is open to the general public, it is exempt.

Religious Entities Under the Americans With Disabilities Act | ADA National Network

adata.org

Religious entities are faith based organizations and are typically organized as not-for-the-profit-of-Lucre.

 

[emilynghiem]

Christian bookstore can be open to the public as a business, selling a certain genre of "spiritual" or "faith based" goods, and NOT be registered as "religious."

I agree to disagree.

Are religious entities covered by Title III of the ADA?
No, religious entities are completely exempt from Title III of the ADA. All of their facilities, programs, and activities, whether they are religious or secular in nature, are exempt.

Are religious entities’ programs covered by Title III if they are open to the general public?
No. For example, if a religious entity controls a school that is open to both members and non-members of the religious entity, the school is still considered a religious entity and is exempt from Title III. Likewise, if a religious entity holds an event, such as a festival or performance, which is open to the general public, it is exempt.

Religious Entities Under the Americans With Disabilities Act | ADA National Network

adata.org

Religious entities are faith based organizations and are typically organized as not-for-the-profit-of-Lucre.

You keep starting with the assumption an organization "has to be RELIGIOUS" to express beliefs.

That is like saying all animals have to be dogs.

So you keep describing the attributes or requirements for an animal to be a "dog."

But the business we are dealing with is more like the animal than the dog.

For example, just because an animal is barking, doesn't mean it has to be a dog.

Seals also bark.

You keep starting with the assumption that "since this animal wants to bark" (since this business wants to express and select services based on beliefs)
"Then this animal must be a dog" (then this business must be a Religious Organization).

Then you go off on arguments based on that.

But from the very start we are NOT dealing with a " Religious Organization" but a BUSINESS (not dealing with a Dog, but with an Animal that is not a Dog).

I am not contesting the rules for Dogs (for Religious Organizations).

I am saying you already set up a strawman by falsely assuming the Animal in question "must be a Dog" (by starting with the false assertion the Business wanting to advertise beliefs "must be a Religious Organization")

Can you cite either NY, CA or federal laws that require any person, business or entity to register as a "religious organization" before they express beliefs or advertise faith based lines of goods or services?

I asked you: Do Christian Bookstores need to be "religious organizations"?

If it helps, I will set up 2 other BR threads asking you to answer 2 more questions to iron out where the biases/conflicts are coming from. If you cannot cite the laws explaining this, then the bias is coming from you not the laws you cannot cite, without imposing your beliefs on them to say things the law does not say.

 

[danielpalos]

You keep starting with the assumption an organization "has to be RELIGIOUS" to express beliefs.

There is no appeal to ignorance of the law. True Christians don't ignore the teachings of Jesus the Christ.

And Jesus answering said unto them, Render to Caesar the things that are Caesar's, and to God the things that are God's. And they marvelled at him. Mark 12:17