China to develop more aircraft carriers

[Mindlight]

Again China cannot launch or land any planes on the one refurbished carrier they have.

Experts are estimating another 4 years before they develop an operational capacity. Depending on how demanding their standards are of course. However such a carrier will be of little use in their disputes with Japan or for Taiwan for example and is illustrative of more global ambitions for power projection.

Carrier Program Shows China Is Looking Beyond Taiwan AWIN content from Aviation Week

It is interesting they have made so much of their Carrier busting missile (CX-1) and yet think it worthwhile to develop a Carrier programme

 

[Mindlight]

why is it that communism gets a pass.....communists murdered close to 100 million people, from around the world, and there are people today who still look to it fondly.....who openly March in democrat parades and rally's and aren't heckled and ridiculed out of the public square....they proudly carry signs calling themselves communists....and no one says boo to them, they wear the images of communist mass murderers on t-shirts and posters, and people just don't care....

Just look at post # 121....imagine if they had posted the same thing about nazi Germany....they would have been immediately called out......yet they say the same thing about an even more monsterous regime, but a communist one....and it is okay.....just unbelievable

Not sure you read #121 correctly or in context.

To be very clear - Mao was a monster and communism is a lie and I am neither a Communist or a Democrat but I do not think people should blindly believe propaganda either.

BUT:
1) China is not ruled by a real Communist party today - whatever the rhetoric. Most of the top members of the Communist party are far richer than the American senate. It is a capitalist ruling elite with Chinese nationalistic sentiments.
2) The destruction of the old China has contributed to Chinas modern prosperity and peace. China before Communisms victory was torn by rival warlords , the playground of imperial powers like Britain pushing Opium or the Japanese raping and killing women and children e.g. Nanking.

 

[Mindlight]

Both Chinese and Japanese cultures have strong national mythologies about why we should regard them as the superior people. ....

So does everyone else.

Some claims are more credible than others or do you really believe that the Emperors lineage includes the sun goddess?

You seem to believe in straw men.

Except this is not.

By definition it is, since no one made the claim to which you allude.

The emperor of Japan is considered to be the divine descendant of Amaterasu Ōmikami and the highest Shinto priest.

Shinto Facts information pictures Encyclopedia.com articles about Shinto

The emperor of Japan, even today, claims direct decent from the Shintō Sun Goddess Amaterasu.

Shinto Deities in Japan Japanese Shinto-Buddhist Syncretic Deities

 

[Unkotare]

So does everyone else.

Some claims are more credible than others or do you really believe that the Emperors lineage includes the sun goddess?

You seem to believe in straw men.

Except this is not.

By definition it is, since no one made the claim to which you allude.

The emperor of Japan is considered to be the divine descendant of Amaterasu Ōmikami and the highest Shinto priest.

Shinto Facts information pictures Encyclopedia.com articles about Shinto

The emperor of Japan, even today, claims direct decent from the Shintō Sun Goddess Amaterasu.

Shinto Deities in Japan Japanese Shinto-Buddhist Syncretic Deities

Wow, your copy and paste skills are impressive.

No one but you has delved into such off-topic details, dopey. Maybe you don't understand what a straw man is.

 

[Kevin_Kennedy]

Mao may have been a blood stained deceiver but those who have followed after him have not been so bad...

"Not so bad"? ????????

By Global standards Mao was one of the most evil rulers ever to walk the planet. The body count from his wars and purges being the evidence of this. He was a destroyer. But without the destruction of old China that he accomplished I doubt China would be so prosperous. By Chinese standards the latest leaders have been good ones facilitating peace and prosperity. The average Chinese has more choice and opportunity today than in any previous generation. This is an improvement on what came before in pre WW1 China

The reality is that they'd probably be further along if they hadn't had their productive capacity destroyed and put backwards for so many years after the civil war.

No I very much doubt that. The Chiang Kai-shek regime was corrupt, incompetent and incredibly disunited. Modern China would have been a vast corrupt gangster state and if they built aircraft carriers they would probably have been empty shells with all the key technologies stolen during the construction process. Also the Communists had the peoples hearts. Also it is doubtful that they would have been able to extricate themselves from negative foreign influences as thoroughly as did Mao. Also the nuclear deterrant which safeguarded Chinas borders would not have been as quickly developed as it required Soviet support. Communism was probably Chinas cleanest and most effective way to the future but the Communist party now is hardly recognisable as a real Communist party. Now it is a ruling elite that unites the country and with mistaken ideas about establishing Chinese regional hegemony. The bitterness against Japan should drive Japan into the arms of the Americans because really they have no where else to go.

Of course the U.S. would have backed China, rather than the Soviets, in the absence of their communist revolution, and they would been further along to begin with, as I said before, without having Mao destroy their productive capacity and killing so many people. This is the problem with alternative history speculations because we can't really know what might have happened. Anything could have happened. I'm merely pointing out that there's no logical reason to assume that having their economy essentially wiped out by communism was the only way forward to prosperity for China. One can certainly see many other avenues for China to still be where they are. As far as being a gangster state, we have plenty of those in the world with large economies so I don't see that as a valid criticism on this issue.

 

[Kevin_Kennedy]

Kevin_Kennedy

The link below chronicles the timeline of Senkaku dispute between China and Japan. Note that in 1969 the UN reported that there was oil deposit near Senkaku Islands. Two years later, China and Taiwan officially claim Senkaku Islands. Don't you think that is bizarre?

Timeline of Japan-China Dispute Over East China Sea Islands

I think there's a problem with your link, and that problem is that the timeline only goes as far back as 1895 and cites no sources to back up its claims. China was at one point the most advanced civilization on the planet and could very well have made a claim on the Senkaku islands before Japan. Does that mean that they did? No, but it does seem strange that an ancient and expanding civilization would simply ignore uninhabited territory for so long.

Regardless, let's assume that your link is correct. "Japan unilaterally annexes five islands and three barren rock groups in the East China Sea, calls them "Senkaku."" Where did Japan get the right to unilaterally annex these islands? Does taking and administering the islands, as you called it, give them the right to the islands? Of course this criticism also applies to China. Assuming they had annexed and administered the islands I see no more right for them to claim them than Japan.

Furthermore, I find your position that Japan's alleged claiming of this territory in earlier times gives them a right to the islands today a bit hypocritical. Earlier in the thread you said of China, "What is their excuse for invading and killing Tibetans?" Their excuse is the same excuse you're putting forward for Japan's ownership of the Senkaku islands, that Tibet was a legitimate part of China and that they were simply reclaiming their territory. If you're going to accept Japan's ownership of Senkaku on this basis, and assuming that it's factually correct, then you have to also accept China's ownership of Tibet because nobody disputes that Tibet was a part of China for a long time before they tried to declare independence during the Chinese Civil War.

My position is that neither Japan nor China has a legitimate claim to the islands, and that their military posturing over the islands, along with the U.S. government's backing of Japan, is possibly the most dangerous conflict on the planet right now.

The islands are going to belong to whoever wants them badly enough to take them. If that means military force, and I'm sure it's going to, then so be it. Most of the guerrilla wars in Asia, with the exception of things like insurrections by China's Muslims, are all about oil.

Well in my opinion this is the most dangerous conflict in the world at present. With the U.S. fully pledged to back Japan militarily this thing has all the necessary ingredients to spin out of control.

 

[Vikrant]

Mao may have been a blood stained deceiver but those who have followed after him have not been so bad...

"Not so bad"? ????????

By Global standards Mao was one of the most evil rulers ever to walk the planet. The body count from his wars and purges being the evidence of this. He was a destroyer. But without the destruction of old China that he accomplished I doubt China would be so prosperous. By Chinese standards the latest leaders have been good ones facilitating peace and prosperity. The average Chinese has more choice and opportunity today than in any previous generation. This is an improvement on what came before in pre WW1 China

The reality is that they'd probably be further along if they hadn't had their productive capacity destroyed and put backwards for so many years after the civil war.

No I very much doubt that. The Chiang Kai-shek regime was corrupt, incompetent and incredibly disunited. Modern China would have been a vast corrupt gangster state and if they built aircraft carriers they would probably have been empty shells with all the key technologies stolen during the construction process. Also the Communists had the peoples hearts. Also it is doubtful that they would have been able to extricate themselves from negative foreign influences as thoroughly as did Mao. Also the nuclear deterrant which safeguarded Chinas borders would not have been as quickly developed as it required Soviet support. Communism was probably Chinas cleanest and most effective way to the future but the Communist party now is hardly recognisable as a real Communist party. Now it is a ruling elite that unites the country and with mistaken ideas about establishing Chinese regional hegemony. The bitterness against Japan should drive Japan into the arms of the Americans because really they have no where else to go.

Communism was China's cleanest way.....they had the people's hearts?...wow....you must have gone to a government school controlled by the education wing of the democrat party...

that whole murdering 70 million people was them just sorting things out...right? Had they tried...oh, I don't know, freedom and democracy...and not killing 70 million people ,you don't think that would have worked out better for the people of China?...of course you don't....you were probably at the top of your class in whatever government school controlled by the education wing of the democrat party that you went to, for you to believe that nonsense....

Perhaps if mao the murderer had butchered 70 million more people he would have really had the hearts of the people......unbelievable.....

I do not think Democrat Party has such program. But China does have program which is called Patriotic Education Camp. People who are caught expressing thoughts that are not approved by China's communist party are sent to this camp. It is not just the Patriotic Education Camp which is designed to brainwash Chinese folks, their regular curriculum in the school is just as potent when it comes to brainwashing. I learned about this while talking to Chinese folks about topics like Tibet or Japan. On the issue of Tibet, they do not seem to be aware of all the killings done by Chinese but on the issue of Japan, they were more than aware of all the atrocities committed by Japanese; to a point where they were ready to take revenge. This stuck to me odd that such a large number of Chinese folks have been brainwashed into thinking that vengeance is OK.

 

[2aguy]

This stuck to me odd that such a large number of Chinese folks have been brainwashed into thinking that vengeance is OK.

This is one of the reasons the Japanese need to rearm....the Chinese have a long memory....

 

[Mindlight]

Of course the U.S. would have backed China, rather than the Soviets, in the absence of their communist revolution, and they would been further along to begin with, as I said before, without having Mao destroy their productive capacity and killing so many people. This is the problem with alternative history speculations because we can't really know what might have happened. Anything could have happened. I'm merely pointing out that there's no logical reason to assume that having their economy essentially wiped out by communism was the only way forward to prosperity for China. One can certainly see many other avenues for China to still be where they are. As far as being a gangster state, we have plenty of those in the world with large economies so I don't see that as a valid criticism on this issue.

But America did not support Chiang Kai-Shek. The Soviets gave a whole load of captured Jap weaponry to the Chinese Communists. If America truly valued Chiang Kai Shek as an ally how come they did not support him until it was too late. The Korean war could have been avoided with a little foresight which was clearly lacking in an America anxious for peace after the war and slightly resentful at the money it was forking out for a ruined world. The plain fact is that America at the time did not trust Chiang Kai Shek and resented the fact that the money they did give seem to disappear to a corrupt swamp with out any accounting for what was done with it. He was a far from perfect ally!!!

So It is no good claiming China would have worked out for the better without the Commies when lack of American help at the key moments contributed to the success of the Communists in China and then cost the lives of all the Americans that subsequently died in Korea. If Mao did not have the hearts of the Chinese people how did he win? The Nationalists had all the advantages at the beginning of the civil war but their corruption, incompetence and failures against the Japanese meant that the Chinese had no real heart for them. It was a peoples war against an entrenched Nationalist party and in such a populous country this peoples war cost the lives of millions. The Americans did not understand here as they would also fail to understand in Vietnam. these were people fighting for their own homes and futures and though it cost them everything they won through in the end. It was not about having a superior economic system. The Chinese have since readopted capitalism. It was about restoring local sovereignty and pride and the conditions in which it was possible to make success happen.

 

[Vikrant]

Of course the U.S. would have backed China, rather than the Soviets, in the absence of their communist revolution, and they would been further along to begin with, as I said before, without having Mao destroy their productive capacity and killing so many people. This is the problem with alternative history speculations because we can't really know what might have happened. Anything could have happened. I'm merely pointing out that there's no logical reason to assume that having their economy essentially wiped out by communism was the only way forward to prosperity for China. One can certainly see many other avenues for China to still be where they are. As far as being a gangster state, we have plenty of those in the world with large economies so I don't see that as a valid criticism on this issue.

But America did not support Chiang Kai-Shek. The Soviets gave a whole load of captured Jap weaponry to the Chinese Communists. If America truly valued Chiang Kai Shek as an ally how come they did not support him until it was too late. The Korean war could have been avoided with a little foresight which was clearly lacking in an America anxious for peace after the war and slightly resentful at the money it was forking out for a ruined world. The plain fact is that America at the time did not trust Chiang Kai Shek and resented the fact that the money they did give seem to disappear to a corrupt swamp with out any accounting for what was done with it. He was a far from perfect ally!!!

So It is no good claiming China would have worked out for the better without the Commies when lack of American help at the key moments contributed to the success of the Communists in China and then cost the lives of all the Americans that subsequently died in Korea. If Mao did not have the hearts of the Chinese people how did he win? The Nationalists had all the advantages at the beginning of the civil war but their corruption, incompetence and failures against the Japanese meant that the Chinese had no real heart for them. It was a peoples war against an entrenched Nationalist party and in such a populous country this peoples war cost the lives of millions. The Americans did not understand here as they would also fail to understand in Vietnam. these were people fighting for their own homes and futures and though it cost them everything they won through in the end. It was not about having a superior economic system. The Chinese have since readopted capitalism. It was about restoring local sovereignty and pride and the conditions in which it was possible to make success happen.

Jap is a racist word. It is designed to insult Japanese folks. Its usage by you tells me that you hate Japanese folks. You can pretend to be something else but eventually you will give your game away. You have already started the process.

 

[Unkotare]

This stuck to me odd that such a large number of Chinese folks have been brainwashed into thinking that vengeance is OK.

This is one of the reasons the Japanese need to rearm....the Chinese have a long memory....

It's not the length of the memory, it's the willingness to hold a grudge forever.

 

[Mindlight]

Some claims are more credible than others or do you really believe that the Emperors lineage includes the sun goddess?

You seem to believe in straw men.

Except this is not.

By definition it is, since no one made the claim to which you allude.

The emperor of Japan is considered to be the divine descendant of Amaterasu Ōmikami and the highest Shinto priest.

Shinto Facts information pictures Encyclopedia.com articles about Shinto

The emperor of Japan, even today, claims direct decent from the Shintō Sun Goddess Amaterasu.

Shinto Deities in Japan Japanese Shinto-Buddhist Syncretic Deities

Wow, your copy and paste skills are impressive.

No one but you has delved into such off-topic details, dopey. Maybe you don't understand what a straw man is.

Dodge and dive

 

[Mindlight]

Of course the U.S. would have backed China, rather than the Soviets, in the absence of their communist revolution, and they would been further along to begin with, as I said before, without having Mao destroy their productive capacity and killing so many people. This is the problem with alternative history speculations because we can't really know what might have happened. Anything could have happened. I'm merely pointing out that there's no logical reason to assume that having their economy essentially wiped out by communism was the only way forward to prosperity for China. One can certainly see many other avenues for China to still be where they are. As far as being a gangster state, we have plenty of those in the world with large economies so I don't see that as a valid criticism on this issue.

But America did not support Chiang Kai-Shek. The Soviets gave a whole load of captured Jap weaponry to the Chinese Communists. If America truly valued Chiang Kai Shek as an ally how come they did not support him until it was too late. The Korean war could have been avoided with a little foresight which was clearly lacking in an America anxious for peace after the war and slightly resentful at the money it was forking out for a ruined world. The plain fact is that America at the time did not trust Chiang Kai Shek and resented the fact that the money they did give seem to disappear to a corrupt swamp with out any accounting for what was done with it. He was a far from perfect ally!!!

So It is no good claiming China would have worked out for the better without the Commies when lack of American help at the key moments contributed to the success of the Communists in China and then cost the lives of all the Americans that subsequently died in Korea. If Mao did not have the hearts of the Chinese people how did he win? The Nationalists had all the advantages at the beginning of the civil war but their corruption, incompetence and failures against the Japanese meant that the Chinese had no real heart for them. It was a peoples war against an entrenched Nationalist party and in such a populous country this peoples war cost the lives of millions. The Americans did not understand here as they would also fail to understand in Vietnam. these were people fighting for their own homes and futures and though it cost them everything they won through in the end. It was not about having a superior economic system. The Chinese have since readopted capitalism. It was about restoring local sovereignty and pride and the conditions in which it was possible to make success happen.

Jap is a racist word. It is designed to insult Japanese folks. Its usage by you tells me that you hate Japanese folks. You can pretend to be something else but eventually you will give your game away. You have already started the process.

Oh that is just plain ignorant not to mention PC to the point of blindness.

I no more hate Japanese people with whom i enjoy happy working relationships than the Yank to whom i am married or the Frogs my mum hangs out with or my Hun Mother in law. If you are so distracted by labels then how can you handle the real people behind them. I do not put up with lies and rubbish nor flatter allies with lies to secure their ratings. Americans and Limeys like myself have nothing to fear from the truth and no desire to play culture bound games of semantics. Life is too short and people too full of themselves for that.

Or was this just a way of hiding the fact you did not have answer to the substance of what was said.

 

[Vikrant]

Of course the U.S. would have backed China, rather than the Soviets, in the absence of their communist revolution, and they would been further along to begin with, as I said before, without having Mao destroy their productive capacity and killing so many people. This is the problem with alternative history speculations because we can't really know what might have happened. Anything could have happened. I'm merely pointing out that there's no logical reason to assume that having their economy essentially wiped out by communism was the only way forward to prosperity for China. One can certainly see many other avenues for China to still be where they are. As far as being a gangster state, we have plenty of those in the world with large economies so I don't see that as a valid criticism on this issue.

But America did not support Chiang Kai-Shek. The Soviets gave a whole load of captured Jap weaponry to the Chinese Communists. If America truly valued Chiang Kai Shek as an ally how come they did not support him until it was too late. The Korean war could have been avoided with a little foresight which was clearly lacking in an America anxious for peace after the war and slightly resentful at the money it was forking out for a ruined world. The plain fact is that America at the time did not trust Chiang Kai Shek and resented the fact that the money they did give seem to disappear to a corrupt swamp with out any accounting for what was done with it. He was a far from perfect ally!!!

So It is no good claiming China would have worked out for the better without the Commies when lack of American help at the key moments contributed to the success of the Communists in China and then cost the lives of all the Americans that subsequently died in Korea. If Mao did not have the hearts of the Chinese people how did he win? The Nationalists had all the advantages at the beginning of the civil war but their corruption, incompetence and failures against the Japanese meant that the Chinese had no real heart for them. It was a peoples war against an entrenched Nationalist party and in such a populous country this peoples war cost the lives of millions. The Americans did not understand here as they would also fail to understand in Vietnam. these were people fighting for their own homes and futures and though it cost them everything they won through in the end. It was not about having a superior economic system. The Chinese have since readopted capitalism. It was about restoring local sovereignty and pride and the conditions in which it was possible to make success happen.

Jap is a racist word. It is designed to insult Japanese folks. Its usage by you tells me that you hate Japanese folks. You can pretend to be something else but eventually you will give your game away. You have already started the process.

Oh that is just plain ignorant not to mention PC to the point of blindness.

I no more hate Japanese people with whom i enjoy happy working relationships than the Yank to whom i am married or the Frogs my mum hangs out with or my Hun Mother in law. If you are so distracted by labels then how can you handle the real people behind them. I do not put up with lies and rubbish nor flatter allies with lies to secure their ratings. Americans and Limeys like myself have nothing to fear from the truth and no desire to play culture bound games of semantics. Life is too short and people too full of themselves for that.

Or was this just a way of hiding the fact you did not have answer to the substance of what was said.

None of that shit excuses your racism. You need to learn that a two-bit racist person like yourself has no substance.

 

[Unkotare]

You seem to believe in straw men.

Except this is not.

By definition it is, since no one made the claim to which you allude.

The emperor of Japan is considered to be the divine descendant of Amaterasu Ōmikami and the highest Shinto priest.

Shinto Facts information pictures Encyclopedia.com articles about Shinto

The emperor of Japan, even today, claims direct decent from the Shintō Sun Goddess Amaterasu.

Shinto Deities in Japan Japanese Shinto-Buddhist Syncretic Deities

Wow, your copy and paste skills are impressive.

No one but you has delved into such off-topic details, dopey. Maybe you don't understand what a straw man is.

Dodge and dive

There is no need to dodge your ignorance and poor communication skills, nitwit.

 

[Shourn]

Here China is progressing way ahead of India while Indian opposition pick up petty issues to derail the development of India

 

[Vikrant]

After aircraft carriers, now China is loading its submarines with nuclear tipped ballistic missiles.

---

China is preparing to arm its stealthiest submarines with nuclear missiles that could reach the United States, cloaking its arsenal with the invisibility needed to retaliate in the event of an enemy strike.

China takes nuclear weapons undersea away from prying eyes

 

[RKMBrown]

maybe we should surrender now