China Fears North Korea US Conflict At Any Moment

[JimBowie1958]

In a modern war, it is apparent no country can stand against us without a nuke. The only way we could lose a war, is by not being committed to win it. How committed would the United States be? That is a political question!

99 times out of 100, before war, we begin to see the reasons, propaganda, excuses, reasoning, theories, of why we must fight this war. If this war is without nukes, (please God) and the Koreas were to be united, then the South Koreans would have responsibility to take care of the aftermath.

I am telling you that it is 10 weeks tops with no nukes before it is a clean up operation. For crying out loud, you could STARVE them out while just holding the line if you wanted to be PC as long as China agreed.

Without nukes or China, fatboy is a paper tiger. Oh yes, we are going to lose people, and that is a national shame. But this would not be a war for the benefit of others, this would be a war for ourselves. Our soldiers would not be dying for Iraq, or anyone else, but rather protection of their country.

Does that make it right? No! No war right! But we are NOT the ones saying we are going to kill them ASAP after we get a delivery system, that is what they are telling us. We could have delivered them a nuke long, long, long, ago; and in fact plopped one in their lap during the Korean war, which we did not! Therefore, there may be no GOOD war, but this is a war of self preservation, along with self determination. If the NK wants FATBOY to run them fine, let them! But, if he wants to kill you, or me, or any other American, that is exactly why WE pay taxes for our military, isn't it!

A nuclear war is a '**** everybody' option, that includes ruining life for the survivors as much as for the losers.

We have to think in terms of political solutions with a conventional military response as a back stop, not nukes.

Nukes are for the Unthinkable options.

 

[Admiral Rockwell Tory]

What has he done that Obama hadn't?

Tweeted

Not just Tweeting but Extreme Tweeting.

Better than Obama's bleeting.

Just so everyone is aware, it's now Saturday 15th April in North Korea and the time is 10.14AM, it is "The Day of The Sun", so Kim Jong-Un has threatened to detonate this nuclear missile or whatever it is today....so it could be ANYTIME from NOW he either does it or everyone will know he was just bluffing all along.

He just displayed a new submarine based missile and warned the United States to end its "military hysteria" or face retaliation. There is no details on this new missle. The idea of course is that it can be moved to the US coast to attack coastal cities. Whether it has ever been tested or even it's just a mockup, who knows. It looks pretty big for submarine launch missile.

That is NOT an SLBM!

 

[Admiral Rockwell Tory]

Nobody cared either.
These rust buckets were designed in the 1940s and they are not likely to be capable of a trans'Pacific crossing by any stretch of the imagination.

Lol the key word here being 'likely'.

Compare the outcome risked to the plausibility that these rust buckets could make their way across the Pacific.

Not a good bet IMO.

We should be tracking and accounting for each and every one of those subs.

Those rust buckets are not capable of firing an SLBM either.

Those subs are required to run mostly on the surface on diesel power and easily tracked. Once they go down, they can only stay as long as their air and batteries hold out.

 

[JimBowie1958]

Those rust buckets are not capable of firing an SLBM either.

I amnot suggesting that they are.

I a saying that they can have a suicide squad that can run the boat and a second squad that detonates an atomic device in the sub itself.

All they would have to do is promise the suicide squad member that their families will be allowed to eat a normal amount of food.

Those subs are required to run mostly on the surface on diesel power and easily tracked. Once they go down, they can only stay as long as their air and batteries hold out.

No snorkels? I bet that they can snorkel..

Anyway, they dont have to get that close, and unless the coastline is being patrolled by aircraft, avoiding surface ships is all they would really have to do.

 

[Mac1958]

Can't they evacuate Seoul? If I lived there, I'd be on the road yesterday.

The word is that Japan is making plans to evacuate it's citizens that are in South Korea.

Japan discusses how to evacuate citizens from South Korea if crisis hits

Japan is also preparing to do another evacuation drill itself.

Japan to conduct evacuation drill to prepare for North Korea missiles

Glad to hear it. Seoul should be doing the same.

Strangely most of South Korea doesn't seem to be freaking out, experts also say that Seoul opposes any unilateral action from America.

Seoul to oppose unilateral US action

"WASHINGTON D.C. ― South Korea will oppose any unilateral U.S. military action against North Korea which U.S. President Donald Trump says is "looking for trouble," according to leading U.S. experts.

While Trump has said the U.S. will solve the problem of North Korea on its own unless China helps, analysts said that any U.S. action against the North should be based on a prior agreement with Seoul.

"Seoul will oppose any unilateral military action plan by the United States against North Korea," said Scott Snyder, director of the Program on US-Korea Policy at the Council of Foreign Relations, in a recent interview with the Medill News Service."

Here's the rest of the article.

'Seoul to oppose unilateral US action'

Of course they oppose unilateral action by the U.S. We know Seoul will be targeted immediately, before our bombs can stop him, apparently. China doesn't want a mess of NK refugees, either. So they push for negotiations. I have nothing at all against trying, and I hope Trump is listening. If we do something without their blessing, it is going to cause quite the mess once the fun part of blowing holes in NK is over.

Yeah, no shit. I can see the South Koreans now:

"HEY. We're right here. WE'RE RIGHT HERE. They've got a bunch of ******* CANNONS pointed at us and these people are not exactly STABLE. If you like your ******* Samsung teevees and cell phones, you had better REMEMBER that we're RIGHT ******* HERE."
.

The word is that Japan is making plans to evacuate it's citizens that are in South Korea.

Japan discusses how to evacuate citizens from South Korea if crisis hits

Japan is also preparing to do another evacuation drill itself.

Japan to conduct evacuation drill to prepare for North Korea missiles

Glad to hear it. Seoul should be doing the same.

Strangely most of South Korea doesn't seem to be freaking out, experts also say that Seoul opposes any unilateral action from America.

Seoul to oppose unilateral US action

"WASHINGTON D.C. ― South Korea will oppose any unilateral U.S. military action against North Korea which U.S. President Donald Trump says is "looking for trouble," according to leading U.S. experts.

While Trump has said the U.S. will solve the problem of North Korea on its own unless China helps, analysts said that any U.S. action against the North should be based on a prior agreement with Seoul.

"Seoul will oppose any unilateral military action plan by the United States against North Korea," said Scott Snyder, director of the Program on US-Korea Policy at the Council of Foreign Relations, in a recent interview with the Medill News Service."

Here's the rest of the article.

'Seoul to oppose unilateral US action'

Of course they oppose unilateral action by the U.S. We know Seoul will be targeted immediately, before our bombs can stop him, apparently. China doesn't want a mess of NK refugees, either. So they push for negotiations. I have nothing at all against trying, and I hope Trump is listening. If we do something without their blessing, it is going to cause quite the mess once the fun part of blowing holes in NK is over.

A full blown war between the koreas would be a catastrophe costing millions of lives and leaving both countries devastated and unsettling the region. So if military force is to be used, which I strongly doubt, there would seem to be only two options, either launch surgical strikes that would take out key elements of NK's nuclear or missile programs or other high value targets or obliterate NK in a preemptive strike. I'm not sure the first option would have a desirable long term effect but the second option would settle the issue once and forever.

Everyone on this board needs to realize that NK has to be dealt with, before they have the means to deliver nukes to the West coast or you and your country is going to be held hostage. This mess was created by BOTH party's Presidents and; the only reason NK was not dealt with before by those Presidents was its cozy relationship with China. I have little doubt that most of the Presidents from EITHER party who held the office once the NK got close to a nuke would have done a preemptive strike of non-nuclear weapons were it not for the Chinese.

We now have a very short time before the NK can hit the West coast. The person on that button kills his uncles with artillery shells for show, and assassinates his 1/2 brother. You think he gives a damn about you, your children, or grandchildren; or even human life!

How many here do NOT want a peaceful solution to the problem? Can I see a show of hands!

That is what I thought, 99.9% of us want a peaceful solution. Much of this debate is misguided. It is not about we want, or do not want war; it is about if we are willing to let a person or regime like this have the capability of hitting the West coast with a nuke soon, and the rest of the country soon after. How far are you willing to go to stop him, or are you of the mindset that we shouldn't do a thing. And then, a week after NK has that missile with a nuke, Iran has it also since they are helping fund the research.

I urge everyone to understand the reality---------->this regime constantly insists it wants to kill YOU, because YOU are an American. Same with Iran. Do you actually believe that if their agents captured you, they would kiss you because you are a pacifist?

Like or hate Trump, he is going to have to deal with it, or very soon your life is going to change. How many of you were alive when Kennedy shut down the missiles in Cuba? Kids had to be taught how to hide under their desks in school, and the truth was, it was just for reassurance; they were DEAD if nukes flew in. Do you want that power in the FATBOY's hands? The Army, Navy, Air Force, and Marines will not be able to save you from a missile with a nuke on it, if it goes off in your city. Your children and grandchildren will cease to exist if it is near them, and you survive! What would be your answer then? How many of you would want to face life without either your children, or grandchildren........because FATBOY thinks he is invincible; even if we incinerated him and his regime in retaliation?

Peaceful solution? Yes! But only if it is really a solution instead of just kicking the can the last 2 feet to what is really the end of the road. For those of you who despise liberals, and those of you who despise Republicans; wait and see how you feel when FATBOY or IRAN tells you to poop, how high, and what color; or they are going to incinerate LA or San Fran! At that time, your carrier group means squat, cause they will start fueling their missiles, and our government will see it by satellite. That means, we either give them their way, or one or more of our cities are coming down.

So then, regardless of the way we must FORCE a solution, are you SURE you want to wait for 6 more months, or a year! Do you want an American President from ANY party have to make the decision to sacrifice one of our major cities to defeat these people? Because we all know, that America will not shoot off the 1st nuke. This means 1 of our cities; if not more will fall before we shut them down with a strike of our own. Which city are you willing to gamble with? That is the question of our time, and like or hate Trump, you better pray to your God for his infinite wisdom!

I don't disagree that we're probably reaching a critical time with NK, and that the window for a peaceful solution may be closing due to the ice cream-fueled madness of the fat kid. This is clearly one of those "there is no good solution" moments.

I have three concerns with what we're doing: First, Trump & Co may be deploying a perfectly reasonable strategy of squeezing him until he squeaks, but that usually only works on sane people - this kid could pretty easily lose his shit and take out South Korea & Japan just because we gave him the stink eye and it gave him a scary dream after a spicy meal. Second, Russia's reaction concerns me more than that of China. And third, while I have a certain natural faith in our military, NK may be set up militarily such that one sneeze from one SEAL at the wrong time could send the rockets a-flyin'.

And I'm even leaving out my general lack of warm & fuzzies for Trump in this whole equation...
.

 

[imawhosure]

The word is that Japan is making plans to evacuate it's citizens that are in South Korea.

Japan discusses how to evacuate citizens from South Korea if crisis hits

Japan is also preparing to do another evacuation drill itself.

Japan to conduct evacuation drill to prepare for North Korea missiles

Glad to hear it. Seoul should be doing the same.

Strangely most of South Korea doesn't seem to be freaking out, experts also say that Seoul opposes any unilateral action from America.

Seoul to oppose unilateral US action

"WASHINGTON D.C. ― South Korea will oppose any unilateral U.S. military action against North Korea which U.S. President Donald Trump says is "looking for trouble," according to leading U.S. experts.

While Trump has said the U.S. will solve the problem of North Korea on its own unless China helps, analysts said that any U.S. action against the North should be based on a prior agreement with Seoul.

"Seoul will oppose any unilateral military action plan by the United States against North Korea," said Scott Snyder, director of the Program on US-Korea Policy at the Council of Foreign Relations, in a recent interview with the Medill News Service."

Here's the rest of the article.

'Seoul to oppose unilateral US action'

Of course they oppose unilateral action by the U.S. We know Seoul will be targeted immediately, before our bombs can stop him, apparently. China doesn't want a mess of NK refugees, either. So they push for negotiations. I have nothing at all against trying, and I hope Trump is listening. If we do something without their blessing, it is going to cause quite the mess once the fun part of blowing holes in NK is over.

Yeah, no shit. I can see the South Koreans now:

"HEY. We're right here. WE'RE RIGHT HERE. They've got a bunch of ******* CANNONS pointed at us and these people are not exactly STABLE. If you like your ******* Samsung teevees and cell phones, you had better REMEMBER that we're RIGHT ******* HERE."
.

Glad to hear it. Seoul should be doing the same.

Strangely most of South Korea doesn't seem to be freaking out, experts also say that Seoul opposes any unilateral action from America.

Seoul to oppose unilateral US action

"WASHINGTON D.C. ― South Korea will oppose any unilateral U.S. military action against North Korea which U.S. President Donald Trump says is "looking for trouble," according to leading U.S. experts.

While Trump has said the U.S. will solve the problem of North Korea on its own unless China helps, analysts said that any U.S. action against the North should be based on a prior agreement with Seoul.

"Seoul will oppose any unilateral military action plan by the United States against North Korea," said Scott Snyder, director of the Program on US-Korea Policy at the Council of Foreign Relations, in a recent interview with the Medill News Service."

Here's the rest of the article.

'Seoul to oppose unilateral US action'

Of course they oppose unilateral action by the U.S. We know Seoul will be targeted immediately, before our bombs can stop him, apparently. China doesn't want a mess of NK refugees, either. So they push for negotiations. I have nothing at all against trying, and I hope Trump is listening. If we do something without their blessing, it is going to cause quite the mess once the fun part of blowing holes in NK is over.

A full blown war between the koreas would be a catastrophe costing millions of lives and leaving both countries devastated and unsettling the region. So if military force is to be used, which I strongly doubt, there would seem to be only two options, either launch surgical strikes that would take out key elements of NK's nuclear or missile programs or other high value targets or obliterate NK in a preemptive strike. I'm not sure the first option would have a desirable long term effect but the second option would settle the issue once and forever.

Everyone on this board needs to realize that NK has to be dealt with, before they have the means to deliver nukes to the West coast or you and your country is going to be held hostage. This mess was created by BOTH party's Presidents and; the only reason NK was not dealt with before by those Presidents was its cozy relationship with China. I have little doubt that most of the Presidents from EITHER party who held the office once the NK got close to a nuke would have done a preemptive strike of non-nuclear weapons were it not for the Chinese.

We now have a very short time before the NK can hit the West coast. The person on that button kills his uncles with artillery shells for show, and assassinates his 1/2 brother. You think he gives a damn about you, your children, or grandchildren; or even human life!

How many here do NOT want a peaceful solution to the problem? Can I see a show of hands!

That is what I thought, 99.9% of us want a peaceful solution. Much of this debate is misguided. It is not about we want, or do not want war; it is about if we are willing to let a person or regime like this have the capability of hitting the West coast with a nuke soon, and the rest of the country soon after. How far are you willing to go to stop him, or are you of the mindset that we shouldn't do a thing. And then, a week after NK has that missile with a nuke, Iran has it also since they are helping fund the research.

I urge everyone to understand the reality---------->this regime constantly insists it wants to kill YOU, because YOU are an American. Same with Iran. Do you actually believe that if their agents captured you, they would kiss you because you are a pacifist?

Like or hate Trump, he is going to have to deal with it, or very soon your life is going to change. How many of you were alive when Kennedy shut down the missiles in Cuba? Kids had to be taught how to hide under their desks in school, and the truth was, it was just for reassurance; they were DEAD if nukes flew in. Do you want that power in the FATBOY's hands? The Army, Navy, Air Force, and Marines will not be able to save you from a missile with a nuke on it, if it goes off in your city. Your children and grandchildren will cease to exist if it is near them, and you survive! What would be your answer then? How many of you would want to face life without either your children, or grandchildren........because FATBOY thinks he is invincible; even if we incinerated him and his regime in retaliation?

Peaceful solution? Yes! But only if it is really a solution instead of just kicking the can the last 2 feet to what is really the end of the road. For those of you who despise liberals, and those of you who despise Republicans; wait and see how you feel when FATBOY or IRAN tells you to poop, how high, and what color; or they are going to incinerate LA or San Fran! At that time, your carrier group means squat, cause they will start fueling their missiles, and our government will see it by satellite. That means, we either give them their way, or one or more of our cities are coming down.

So then, regardless of the way we must FORCE a solution, are you SURE you want to wait for 6 more months, or a year! Do you want an American President from ANY party have to make the decision to sacrifice one of our major cities to defeat these people? Because we all know, that America will not shoot off the 1st nuke. This means 1 of our cities; if not more will fall before we shut them down with a strike of our own. Which city are you willing to gamble with? That is the question of our time, and like or hate Trump, you better pray to your God for his infinite wisdom!

I don't disagree that we're probably reaching a critical time with NK, and that the window for a peaceful solution may be closing due to the ice cream-fueled madness of the fat kid. This is clearly one of those "there is no good solution" moments.

I have three concerns with what we're doing: First, Trump & Co may be deploying a perfectly reasonable strategy of squeezing him until he squeaks, but that usually only works on sane people - this kid could pretty easily lose his shit and take out South Korea & Japan just because we gave him the stink eye and it gave him a scary dream after a spicy meal. Second, Russia's reaction concerns me more than that of China. And third, while I have a certain natural faith in our military, NK may be set up militarily such that one sneeze from one SEAL at the wrong time could send the rockets a-flyin'.

And I'm even leaving out my general lack of warm & fuzzies for Trump in this whole equation...
.

There are no good solutions Mac unless China intervenes on our behalf. After that, it is all bad solutions. Our politicians have kicked this can about as far down the road as possible, and now the bill has come due. We either disarm them, or we allow them and Iran to both have the ability to strike us at will; and in that case no amount of military personnel will protect American citizens in their own country.

People on here can wish in one hand, and poop in the other, it isn't going to change the facts of the situation. We can also point to this President, or that President from the past and blame it on them, but all the blame in the world isn't going to change current facts; and that is what we have to deal with today......now. This is NOT a Democrat or Republican problem, it is an AMERICA in total problem.

Again, the Chinese may solve the problem for us; and let us hope so. But if not, then what? That is what the posters have to ask themselves, and that is the ONLY question they need ask themselves to decide the way forward. With no Chinese help, you either forcibly disarm FATBOY, or you don't. All this talk of look at what happened in Iraq is not pertinent. FATBOY is a direct threat to American security, or will be very, very, shortly.

We have seen throughout history what happens when countries do not stop tyrants like this. How many times have we seen this same scenario, and almost every time, it ends badly.

Now I can't promise this, but reason tells me that neither China, nor Russia; is going to shoot a nuke at anyone as long as their country is not invaded. Are we, or NATO going to invade China or Russia? NO! Does China and Russia know this from past dealing with us? YES! So the only question really is----------->if we took out NKs nuclear capabilities, would either of them commit troops to the defense of NK in a conventional war? I dunno, but you know those wars we always seem to have by proxy? Well, I can see the NK and Iran who hate us more than life itself, fighting a proxy war with us using nukes, as China and Russia sit back and take no blame as our cities turn to dust; especially Russia.

No more kicking the can folks, it is the time we all dreaded, if no peaceful, verifiable solution can be found quickly, then a decision one way or the other has to be made. That is what this board needs to debate, not pie in the sky solutions.

BOTTOMLINE----------->if no peaceful solution arises relatively quickly, then what do you want to do..................force them to disarm by any means necessary, or let this person; and Iran, have the nukes and delivery system to hit mainland USA? Any time after that to disarm them, nukes will fly to a city, probably near you; and they very well may anyway, just because one of the regimes hate all of YOU so much.

I believe while all of you are contemplating that question, you need to consider 1 point of reality------>we Americans elect our government to protect us. The NK and Irans government have their people to protect THEM. They will sacrifice their people, their cities, to have their regimes survive the war. That is the stark difference you face in governmental philosophies.

Again, how do YOU want to handle the problem?

 

[Mac1958]

Glad to hear it. Seoul should be doing the same.

Strangely most of South Korea doesn't seem to be freaking out, experts also say that Seoul opposes any unilateral action from America.

Seoul to oppose unilateral US action

"WASHINGTON D.C. ― South Korea will oppose any unilateral U.S. military action against North Korea which U.S. President Donald Trump says is "looking for trouble," according to leading U.S. experts.

While Trump has said the U.S. will solve the problem of North Korea on its own unless China helps, analysts said that any U.S. action against the North should be based on a prior agreement with Seoul.

"Seoul will oppose any unilateral military action plan by the United States against North Korea," said Scott Snyder, director of the Program on US-Korea Policy at the Council of Foreign Relations, in a recent interview with the Medill News Service."

Here's the rest of the article.

'Seoul to oppose unilateral US action'

Of course they oppose unilateral action by the U.S. We know Seoul will be targeted immediately, before our bombs can stop him, apparently. China doesn't want a mess of NK refugees, either. So they push for negotiations. I have nothing at all against trying, and I hope Trump is listening. If we do something without their blessing, it is going to cause quite the mess once the fun part of blowing holes in NK is over.

Yeah, no shit. I can see the South Koreans now:

"HEY. We're right here. WE'RE RIGHT HERE. They've got a bunch of ******* CANNONS pointed at us and these people are not exactly STABLE. If you like your ******* Samsung teevees and cell phones, you had better REMEMBER that we're RIGHT ******* HERE."
.

Strangely most of South Korea doesn't seem to be freaking out, experts also say that Seoul opposes any unilateral action from America.

Seoul to oppose unilateral US action

"WASHINGTON D.C. ― South Korea will oppose any unilateral U.S. military action against North Korea which U.S. President Donald Trump says is "looking for trouble," according to leading U.S. experts.

While Trump has said the U.S. will solve the problem of North Korea on its own unless China helps, analysts said that any U.S. action against the North should be based on a prior agreement with Seoul.

"Seoul will oppose any unilateral military action plan by the United States against North Korea," said Scott Snyder, director of the Program on US-Korea Policy at the Council of Foreign Relations, in a recent interview with the Medill News Service."

Here's the rest of the article.

'Seoul to oppose unilateral US action'

Of course they oppose unilateral action by the U.S. We know Seoul will be targeted immediately, before our bombs can stop him, apparently. China doesn't want a mess of NK refugees, either. So they push for negotiations. I have nothing at all against trying, and I hope Trump is listening. If we do something without their blessing, it is going to cause quite the mess once the fun part of blowing holes in NK is over.

A full blown war between the koreas would be a catastrophe costing millions of lives and leaving both countries devastated and unsettling the region. So if military force is to be used, which I strongly doubt, there would seem to be only two options, either launch surgical strikes that would take out key elements of NK's nuclear or missile programs or other high value targets or obliterate NK in a preemptive strike. I'm not sure the first option would have a desirable long term effect but the second option would settle the issue once and forever.

Everyone on this board needs to realize that NK has to be dealt with, before they have the means to deliver nukes to the West coast or you and your country is going to be held hostage. This mess was created by BOTH party's Presidents and; the only reason NK was not dealt with before by those Presidents was its cozy relationship with China. I have little doubt that most of the Presidents from EITHER party who held the office once the NK got close to a nuke would have done a preemptive strike of non-nuclear weapons were it not for the Chinese.

We now have a very short time before the NK can hit the West coast. The person on that button kills his uncles with artillery shells for show, and assassinates his 1/2 brother. You think he gives a damn about you, your children, or grandchildren; or even human life!

How many here do NOT want a peaceful solution to the problem? Can I see a show of hands!

That is what I thought, 99.9% of us want a peaceful solution. Much of this debate is misguided. It is not about we want, or do not want war; it is about if we are willing to let a person or regime like this have the capability of hitting the West coast with a nuke soon, and the rest of the country soon after. How far are you willing to go to stop him, or are you of the mindset that we shouldn't do a thing. And then, a week after NK has that missile with a nuke, Iran has it also since they are helping fund the research.

I urge everyone to understand the reality---------->this regime constantly insists it wants to kill YOU, because YOU are an American. Same with Iran. Do you actually believe that if their agents captured you, they would kiss you because you are a pacifist?

Like or hate Trump, he is going to have to deal with it, or very soon your life is going to change. How many of you were alive when Kennedy shut down the missiles in Cuba? Kids had to be taught how to hide under their desks in school, and the truth was, it was just for reassurance; they were DEAD if nukes flew in. Do you want that power in the FATBOY's hands? The Army, Navy, Air Force, and Marines will not be able to save you from a missile with a nuke on it, if it goes off in your city. Your children and grandchildren will cease to exist if it is near them, and you survive! What would be your answer then? How many of you would want to face life without either your children, or grandchildren........because FATBOY thinks he is invincible; even if we incinerated him and his regime in retaliation?

Peaceful solution? Yes! But only if it is really a solution instead of just kicking the can the last 2 feet to what is really the end of the road. For those of you who despise liberals, and those of you who despise Republicans; wait and see how you feel when FATBOY or IRAN tells you to poop, how high, and what color; or they are going to incinerate LA or San Fran! At that time, your carrier group means squat, cause they will start fueling their missiles, and our government will see it by satellite. That means, we either give them their way, or one or more of our cities are coming down.

So then, regardless of the way we must FORCE a solution, are you SURE you want to wait for 6 more months, or a year! Do you want an American President from ANY party have to make the decision to sacrifice one of our major cities to defeat these people? Because we all know, that America will not shoot off the 1st nuke. This means 1 of our cities; if not more will fall before we shut them down with a strike of our own. Which city are you willing to gamble with? That is the question of our time, and like or hate Trump, you better pray to your God for his infinite wisdom!

I don't disagree that we're probably reaching a critical time with NK, and that the window for a peaceful solution may be closing due to the ice cream-fueled madness of the fat kid. This is clearly one of those "there is no good solution" moments.

I have three concerns with what we're doing: First, Trump & Co may be deploying a perfectly reasonable strategy of squeezing him until he squeaks, but that usually only works on sane people - this kid could pretty easily lose his shit and take out South Korea & Japan just because we gave him the stink eye and it gave him a scary dream after a spicy meal. Second, Russia's reaction concerns me more than that of China. And third, while I have a certain natural faith in our military, NK may be set up militarily such that one sneeze from one SEAL at the wrong time could send the rockets a-flyin'.

And I'm even leaving out my general lack of warm & fuzzies for Trump in this whole equation...
.

There are no good solutions Mac unless China intervenes on our behalf. After that, it is all bad solutions. Our politicians have kicked this can about as far down the road as possible, and now the bill has come due. We either disarm them, or we allow them and Iran to both have the ability to strike us at will; and in that case no amount of military personnel will protect American citizens in their own country.

People on here can wish in one hand, and poop in the other, it isn't going to change the facts of the situation. We can also point to this President, or that President from the past and blame it on them, but all the blame in the world isn't going to change current facts; and that is what we have to deal with today......now. This is NOT a Democrat or Republican problem, it is an AMERICA in total problem.

Again, the Chinese may solve the problem for us; and let us hope so. But if not, then what? That is what the posters have to ask themselves, and that is the ONLY question they need ask themselves to decide the way forward. With no Chinese help, you either forcibly disarm FATBOY, or you don't. All this talk of look at what happened in Iraq is not pertinent. FATBOY is a direct threat to American security, or will be very, very, shortly.

We have seen throughout history what happens when countries do not stop tyrants like this. How many times have we seen this same scenario, and almost every time, it ends badly.

Now I can't promise this, but reason tells me that neither China, nor Russia; is going to shoot a nuke at anyone as long as their country is not invaded. Are we, or NATO going to invade China or Russia? NO! Does China and Russia know this from past dealing with us? YES! So the only question really is----------->if we took out NKs nuclear capabilities, would either of them commit troops to the defense of NK in a conventional war? I dunno, but you know those wars we always seem to have by proxy? Well, I can see the NK and Iran who hate us more than life itself, fighting a proxy war with us using nukes, as China and Russia sit back and take no blame as our cities turn to dust; especially Russia.

No more kicking the can folks, it is the time we all dreaded, if no peaceful, verifiable solution can be found quickly, then a decision one way or the other has to be made. That is what this board needs to debate, not pie in the sky solutions.

BOTTOMLINE----------->if no peaceful solution arises relatively quickly, then what do you want to do..................force them to disarm by any means necessary, or let this person; and Iran, have the nukes and delivery system to hit mainland USA? Any time after that to disarm them, nukes will fly to a city, probably near you; and they very well may anyway, just because one of the regimes hate all of YOU so much.

I've pretty much been assuming all along that China was going to intervene before the shit really hit the fan, but it's really looking as though that may not happen. I don't know if that means they're not as influential with NK as we thought, or that they're okay staying out of it.

I'm just hopeful that our intelligence on NK is strong - and how strong can it be, with such a closed country? I'm also hopeful that just enough sanity remains in Iran and with the fat kid for them to realize that no one wins when shit goes nuclear.
.

 

[imawhosure]

Strangely most of South Korea doesn't seem to be freaking out, experts also say that Seoul opposes any unilateral action from America.

Seoul to oppose unilateral US action

"WASHINGTON D.C. ― South Korea will oppose any unilateral U.S. military action against North Korea which U.S. President Donald Trump says is "looking for trouble," according to leading U.S. experts.

While Trump has said the U.S. will solve the problem of North Korea on its own unless China helps, analysts said that any U.S. action against the North should be based on a prior agreement with Seoul.

"Seoul will oppose any unilateral military action plan by the United States against North Korea," said Scott Snyder, director of the Program on US-Korea Policy at the Council of Foreign Relations, in a recent interview with the Medill News Service."

Here's the rest of the article.

'Seoul to oppose unilateral US action'

Of course they oppose unilateral action by the U.S. We know Seoul will be targeted immediately, before our bombs can stop him, apparently. China doesn't want a mess of NK refugees, either. So they push for negotiations. I have nothing at all against trying, and I hope Trump is listening. If we do something without their blessing, it is going to cause quite the mess once the fun part of blowing holes in NK is over.

Yeah, no shit. I can see the South Koreans now:

"HEY. We're right here. WE'RE RIGHT HERE. They've got a bunch of ******* CANNONS pointed at us and these people are not exactly STABLE. If you like your ******* Samsung teevees and cell phones, you had better REMEMBER that we're RIGHT ******* HERE."
.

Of course they oppose unilateral action by the U.S. We know Seoul will be targeted immediately, before our bombs can stop him, apparently. China doesn't want a mess of NK refugees, either. So they push for negotiations. I have nothing at all against trying, and I hope Trump is listening. If we do something without their blessing, it is going to cause quite the mess once the fun part of blowing holes in NK is over.

A full blown war between the koreas would be a catastrophe costing millions of lives and leaving both countries devastated and unsettling the region. So if military force is to be used, which I strongly doubt, there would seem to be only two options, either launch surgical strikes that would take out key elements of NK's nuclear or missile programs or other high value targets or obliterate NK in a preemptive strike. I'm not sure the first option would have a desirable long term effect but the second option would settle the issue once and forever.

Everyone on this board needs to realize that NK has to be dealt with, before they have the means to deliver nukes to the West coast or you and your country is going to be held hostage. This mess was created by BOTH party's Presidents and; the only reason NK was not dealt with before by those Presidents was its cozy relationship with China. I have little doubt that most of the Presidents from EITHER party who held the office once the NK got close to a nuke would have done a preemptive strike of non-nuclear weapons were it not for the Chinese.

We now have a very short time before the NK can hit the West coast. The person on that button kills his uncles with artillery shells for show, and assassinates his 1/2 brother. You think he gives a damn about you, your children, or grandchildren; or even human life!

How many here do NOT want a peaceful solution to the problem? Can I see a show of hands!

That is what I thought, 99.9% of us want a peaceful solution. Much of this debate is misguided. It is not about we want, or do not want war; it is about if we are willing to let a person or regime like this have the capability of hitting the West coast with a nuke soon, and the rest of the country soon after. How far are you willing to go to stop him, or are you of the mindset that we shouldn't do a thing. And then, a week after NK has that missile with a nuke, Iran has it also since they are helping fund the research.

I urge everyone to understand the reality---------->this regime constantly insists it wants to kill YOU, because YOU are an American. Same with Iran. Do you actually believe that if their agents captured you, they would kiss you because you are a pacifist?

Like or hate Trump, he is going to have to deal with it, or very soon your life is going to change. How many of you were alive when Kennedy shut down the missiles in Cuba? Kids had to be taught how to hide under their desks in school, and the truth was, it was just for reassurance; they were DEAD if nukes flew in. Do you want that power in the FATBOY's hands? The Army, Navy, Air Force, and Marines will not be able to save you from a missile with a nuke on it, if it goes off in your city. Your children and grandchildren will cease to exist if it is near them, and you survive! What would be your answer then? How many of you would want to face life without either your children, or grandchildren........because FATBOY thinks he is invincible; even if we incinerated him and his regime in retaliation?

Peaceful solution? Yes! But only if it is really a solution instead of just kicking the can the last 2 feet to what is really the end of the road. For those of you who despise liberals, and those of you who despise Republicans; wait and see how you feel when FATBOY or IRAN tells you to poop, how high, and what color; or they are going to incinerate LA or San Fran! At that time, your carrier group means squat, cause they will start fueling their missiles, and our government will see it by satellite. That means, we either give them their way, or one or more of our cities are coming down.

So then, regardless of the way we must FORCE a solution, are you SURE you want to wait for 6 more months, or a year! Do you want an American President from ANY party have to make the decision to sacrifice one of our major cities to defeat these people? Because we all know, that America will not shoot off the 1st nuke. This means 1 of our cities; if not more will fall before we shut them down with a strike of our own. Which city are you willing to gamble with? That is the question of our time, and like or hate Trump, you better pray to your God for his infinite wisdom!

I don't disagree that we're probably reaching a critical time with NK, and that the window for a peaceful solution may be closing due to the ice cream-fueled madness of the fat kid. This is clearly one of those "there is no good solution" moments.

I have three concerns with what we're doing: First, Trump & Co may be deploying a perfectly reasonable strategy of squeezing him until he squeaks, but that usually only works on sane people - this kid could pretty easily lose his shit and take out South Korea & Japan just because we gave him the stink eye and it gave him a scary dream after a spicy meal. Second, Russia's reaction concerns me more than that of China. And third, while I have a certain natural faith in our military, NK may be set up militarily such that one sneeze from one SEAL at the wrong time could send the rockets a-flyin'.

And I'm even leaving out my general lack of warm & fuzzies for Trump in this whole equation...
.

There are no good solutions Mac unless China intervenes on our behalf. After that, it is all bad solutions. Our politicians have kicked this can about as far down the road as possible, and now the bill has come due. We either disarm them, or we allow them and Iran to both have the ability to strike us at will; and in that case no amount of military personnel will protect American citizens in their own country.

People on here can wish in one hand, and poop in the other, it isn't going to change the facts of the situation. We can also point to this President, or that President from the past and blame it on them, but all the blame in the world isn't going to change current facts; and that is what we have to deal with today......now. This is NOT a Democrat or Republican problem, it is an AMERICA in total problem.

Again, the Chinese may solve the problem for us; and let us hope so. But if not, then what? That is what the posters have to ask themselves, and that is the ONLY question they need ask themselves to decide the way forward. With no Chinese help, you either forcibly disarm FATBOY, or you don't. All this talk of look at what happened in Iraq is not pertinent. FATBOY is a direct threat to American security, or will be very, very, shortly.

We have seen throughout history what happens when countries do not stop tyrants like this. How many times have we seen this same scenario, and almost every time, it ends badly.

Now I can't promise this, but reason tells me that neither China, nor Russia; is going to shoot a nuke at anyone as long as their country is not invaded. Are we, or NATO going to invade China or Russia? NO! Does China and Russia know this from past dealing with us? YES! So the only question really is----------->if we took out NKs nuclear capabilities, would either of them commit troops to the defense of NK in a conventional war? I dunno, but you know those wars we always seem to have by proxy? Well, I can see the NK and Iran who hate us more than life itself, fighting a proxy war with us using nukes, as China and Russia sit back and take no blame as our cities turn to dust; especially Russia.

No more kicking the can folks, it is the time we all dreaded, if no peaceful, verifiable solution can be found quickly, then a decision one way or the other has to be made. That is what this board needs to debate, not pie in the sky solutions.

BOTTOMLINE----------->if no peaceful solution arises relatively quickly, then what do you want to do..................force them to disarm by any means necessary, or let this person; and Iran, have the nukes and delivery system to hit mainland USA? Any time after that to disarm them, nukes will fly to a city, probably near you; and they very well may anyway, just because one of the regimes hate all of YOU so much.

I've pretty much been assuming all along that China was going to intervene before the shit really hit the fan, but it's really looking as though that may not happen. I don't know if that means they're not as influential with NK as we thought, or that they're okay staying out of it.

I'm just hopeful that our intelligence on NK is strong - and how strong can it be, with such a closed country? I'm also hopeful that just enough sanity remains in Iran and with the fat kid for them to realize that no one wins when shit goes nuclear.
.

That is the problem Mac, just as you said........such a closed country. How do you through any means, create a verifiable solution? The NK is far more closed than Iran.

Maybe I am wrong; and I certainly hope so, but without a Chinese intervention, I am seeing a very dark time coming for the world. This is not Mr Trump, he just holds the office as it appears to come to a head.

I wonder how many people in America are surprised by this problem, and if so, why weren't they aware of it as this train has been heading in this direction through at least the last 3 Presidents. People need to understand there is only one magic bullet left to prevent war, or allowing those 2 regimes to get nukes, and if it doesn't appear, what ever decision is made will change Americans lives considerably moving forward.

 

[Mac1958]

Of course they oppose unilateral action by the U.S. We know Seoul will be targeted immediately, before our bombs can stop him, apparently. China doesn't want a mess of NK refugees, either. So they push for negotiations. I have nothing at all against trying, and I hope Trump is listening. If we do something without their blessing, it is going to cause quite the mess once the fun part of blowing holes in NK is over.

Yeah, no shit. I can see the South Koreans now:

"HEY. We're right here. WE'RE RIGHT HERE. They've got a bunch of ******* CANNONS pointed at us and these people are not exactly STABLE. If you like your ******* Samsung teevees and cell phones, you had better REMEMBER that we're RIGHT ******* HERE."
.

A full blown war between the koreas would be a catastrophe costing millions of lives and leaving both countries devastated and unsettling the region. So if military force is to be used, which I strongly doubt, there would seem to be only two options, either launch surgical strikes that would take out key elements of NK's nuclear or missile programs or other high value targets or obliterate NK in a preemptive strike. I'm not sure the first option would have a desirable long term effect but the second option would settle the issue once and forever.

Everyone on this board needs to realize that NK has to be dealt with, before they have the means to deliver nukes to the West coast or you and your country is going to be held hostage. This mess was created by BOTH party's Presidents and; the only reason NK was not dealt with before by those Presidents was its cozy relationship with China. I have little doubt that most of the Presidents from EITHER party who held the office once the NK got close to a nuke would have done a preemptive strike of non-nuclear weapons were it not for the Chinese.

We now have a very short time before the NK can hit the West coast. The person on that button kills his uncles with artillery shells for show, and assassinates his 1/2 brother. You think he gives a damn about you, your children, or grandchildren; or even human life!

How many here do NOT want a peaceful solution to the problem? Can I see a show of hands!

That is what I thought, 99.9% of us want a peaceful solution. Much of this debate is misguided. It is not about we want, or do not want war; it is about if we are willing to let a person or regime like this have the capability of hitting the West coast with a nuke soon, and the rest of the country soon after. How far are you willing to go to stop him, or are you of the mindset that we shouldn't do a thing. And then, a week after NK has that missile with a nuke, Iran has it also since they are helping fund the research.

I urge everyone to understand the reality---------->this regime constantly insists it wants to kill YOU, because YOU are an American. Same with Iran. Do you actually believe that if their agents captured you, they would kiss you because you are a pacifist?

Like or hate Trump, he is going to have to deal with it, or very soon your life is going to change. How many of you were alive when Kennedy shut down the missiles in Cuba? Kids had to be taught how to hide under their desks in school, and the truth was, it was just for reassurance; they were DEAD if nukes flew in. Do you want that power in the FATBOY's hands? The Army, Navy, Air Force, and Marines will not be able to save you from a missile with a nuke on it, if it goes off in your city. Your children and grandchildren will cease to exist if it is near them, and you survive! What would be your answer then? How many of you would want to face life without either your children, or grandchildren........because FATBOY thinks he is invincible; even if we incinerated him and his regime in retaliation?

Peaceful solution? Yes! But only if it is really a solution instead of just kicking the can the last 2 feet to what is really the end of the road. For those of you who despise liberals, and those of you who despise Republicans; wait and see how you feel when FATBOY or IRAN tells you to poop, how high, and what color; or they are going to incinerate LA or San Fran! At that time, your carrier group means squat, cause they will start fueling their missiles, and our government will see it by satellite. That means, we either give them their way, or one or more of our cities are coming down.

So then, regardless of the way we must FORCE a solution, are you SURE you want to wait for 6 more months, or a year! Do you want an American President from ANY party have to make the decision to sacrifice one of our major cities to defeat these people? Because we all know, that America will not shoot off the 1st nuke. This means 1 of our cities; if not more will fall before we shut them down with a strike of our own. Which city are you willing to gamble with? That is the question of our time, and like or hate Trump, you better pray to your God for his infinite wisdom!

I don't disagree that we're probably reaching a critical time with NK, and that the window for a peaceful solution may be closing due to the ice cream-fueled madness of the fat kid. This is clearly one of those "there is no good solution" moments.

I have three concerns with what we're doing: First, Trump & Co may be deploying a perfectly reasonable strategy of squeezing him until he squeaks, but that usually only works on sane people - this kid could pretty easily lose his shit and take out South Korea & Japan just because we gave him the stink eye and it gave him a scary dream after a spicy meal. Second, Russia's reaction concerns me more than that of China. And third, while I have a certain natural faith in our military, NK may be set up militarily such that one sneeze from one SEAL at the wrong time could send the rockets a-flyin'.

And I'm even leaving out my general lack of warm & fuzzies for Trump in this whole equation...
.

There are no good solutions Mac unless China intervenes on our behalf. After that, it is all bad solutions. Our politicians have kicked this can about as far down the road as possible, and now the bill has come due. We either disarm them, or we allow them and Iran to both have the ability to strike us at will; and in that case no amount of military personnel will protect American citizens in their own country.

People on here can wish in one hand, and poop in the other, it isn't going to change the facts of the situation. We can also point to this President, or that President from the past and blame it on them, but all the blame in the world isn't going to change current facts; and that is what we have to deal with today......now. This is NOT a Democrat or Republican problem, it is an AMERICA in total problem.

Again, the Chinese may solve the problem for us; and let us hope so. But if not, then what? That is what the posters have to ask themselves, and that is the ONLY question they need ask themselves to decide the way forward. With no Chinese help, you either forcibly disarm FATBOY, or you don't. All this talk of look at what happened in Iraq is not pertinent. FATBOY is a direct threat to American security, or will be very, very, shortly.

We have seen throughout history what happens when countries do not stop tyrants like this. How many times have we seen this same scenario, and almost every time, it ends badly.

Now I can't promise this, but reason tells me that neither China, nor Russia; is going to shoot a nuke at anyone as long as their country is not invaded. Are we, or NATO going to invade China or Russia? NO! Does China and Russia know this from past dealing with us? YES! So the only question really is----------->if we took out NKs nuclear capabilities, would either of them commit troops to the defense of NK in a conventional war? I dunno, but you know those wars we always seem to have by proxy? Well, I can see the NK and Iran who hate us more than life itself, fighting a proxy war with us using nukes, as China and Russia sit back and take no blame as our cities turn to dust; especially Russia.

No more kicking the can folks, it is the time we all dreaded, if no peaceful, verifiable solution can be found quickly, then a decision one way or the other has to be made. That is what this board needs to debate, not pie in the sky solutions.

BOTTOMLINE----------->if no peaceful solution arises relatively quickly, then what do you want to do..................force them to disarm by any means necessary, or let this person; and Iran, have the nukes and delivery system to hit mainland USA? Any time after that to disarm them, nukes will fly to a city, probably near you; and they very well may anyway, just because one of the regimes hate all of YOU so much.

I've pretty much been assuming all along that China was going to intervene before the shit really hit the fan, but it's really looking as though that may not happen. I don't know if that means they're not as influential with NK as we thought, or that they're okay staying out of it.

I'm just hopeful that our intelligence on NK is strong - and how strong can it be, with such a closed country? I'm also hopeful that just enough sanity remains in Iran and with the fat kid for them to realize that no one wins when shit goes nuclear.
.

That is the problem Mac, just as you said........such a closed country. How do you through any means, create a verifiable solution? The NK is far more closed than Iran.

Maybe I am wrong; and I certainly hope so, but without a Chinese intervention, I am seeing a very dark time coming for the world. This is not Mr Trump, he just holds the office as it appears to come to a head.

I wonder how many people in America are surprised by this problem, and if so, why weren't they aware of it as this train has been heading in this direction through at least the last 3 Presidents. People need to understand there is only one magic bullet left to prevent war, or allowing those 2 regimes to get nukes, and if it doesn't appear, what ever decision is made will change Americans lives considerably moving forward.

There is another possibility regarding the fat kid: That he feels nukes will give him leverage on the world stage, both politically and economically, and that's all he's after.

I'm not saying I'm sure about that, but it is a possibility. Again, if he has retained any sanity, he has to know that doing something stupid would essentially be suicide.

My guess/hope is that there is some kind of communication going on with them right now.
.

 

[Admiral Rockwell Tory]

Those rust buckets are not capable of firing an SLBM either.

I amnot suggesting that they are.

I a saying that they can have a suicide squad that can run the boat and a second squad that detonates an atomic device in the sub itself.

All they would have to do is promise the suicide squad member that their families will be allowed to eat a normal amount of food.

Those subs are required to run mostly on the surface on diesel power and easily tracked. Once they go down, they can only stay as long as their air and batteries hold out.

No snorkels? I bet that they can snorkel..

Anyway, they dont have to get that close, and unless the coastline is being patrolled by aircraft, avoiding surface ships is all they would really have to do.

When a submarine snorkels, it still uses its incredibly loud diesel engines. Advances in sonar technology have made that tactic obsolete. They are also still visible in radar.

That was good for WWII, but not anymore.

My nuclear submarine built in the 60s had that capability, but it was for emergencies only.

 

[Admiral Rockwell Tory]

Those rust buckets are not capable of firing an SLBM either.

I amnot suggesting that they are.

I a saying that they can have a suicide squad that can run the boat and a second squad that detonates an atomic device in the sub itself.

All they would have to do is promise the suicide squad member that their families will be allowed to eat a normal amount of food.

Those subs are required to run mostly on the surface on diesel power and easily tracked. Once they go down, they can only stay as long as their air and batteries hold out.

No snorkels? I bet that they can snorkel..

Anyway, they dont have to get that close, and unless the coastline is being patrolled by aircraft, avoiding surface ships is all they would really have to do.

It takes every person on that sub to run it. Also, how would you get a nuclear weapon on a submarine of that size? They do not have large areas of unused space.

Remember, everything that goes on a submarine has to fit through hatches that are designed to be as small as possible. Remember, it is a 1940s era design.

 

[toomuchtime_]

A missile attack on NK probably means that Seoul is toast.

I have a feeling that there will be a war with 24 hrs. I also believe that the Pentagon has thoroughly thought this through and has more than a few surprises for N. Korea. This will probably be the shortest war in history.

Under estimating North Korea is a big mistake. You can bomb them to hell and back and the only way you will beat them is troops on the ground. They have a huge military for the size of the country and practically nothing else. Their GDP is 25 billion. By comparison the US spends three times that on just food stamps and 50 times that on defense. NK starves the people to feed the army. The population is 24 million and 10% are either active duty, about 1.1 million, in the reserves, or civilians working for the military. It is a military state which has been at war with the United States for over 60 years. In the Korean War the US and it's allies had a military force of a million troops in the war and after nearly 3 years, we were only able to negotiated an armistice put no peace treaty.

"You can bomb them to hell and back and the only way you will beat them is troops on the ground."

There would be 0 support for putting Western nations troops on the ground in North Korea, if it came to that the Chinese would have to go in and put troops on the ground.

But this is of course the same with nearly all war situations, no war has ever been won from the air, you always have to put ground troops in.

I will tell you both this-----------> if the Chinese nod yes under a deal..............if Trump and his generals believe there is an 80% chance they can take out the nukes in a 1st strike, then the decision is done if a peaceful solution is not forthcoming. Without their nukes and Chinese help, the NK is done!

If those things are not in place, then it will drag to the very last minute before a decision is made. Again I say, pray for wisdom on this one, because it is going to shape your life if they choose wrong throughout your lifetime, and probably all of your immediate family too.

Both sides have been preparing for war for so long that a first strike would have to take out far more then NK's nuclear program to prevent a Korean war that would devastate both countries killing millions. If we launch a preemptive strike against NK, we must aim to take out much more than just their nuclear program; we must take out their whole ability to make war and that will mean most of the infrastructure of the country, military and civilian would have to be destroyed.

In a modern war, it is apparent no country can stand against us without a nuke. The only way we could lose a war, is by not being committed to win it. How committed would the United States be? That is a political question!

99 times out of 100, before war, we begin to see the reasons, propaganda, excuses, reasoning, theories, of why we must fight this war. If this war is without nukes, (please God) and the Koreas were to be united, then the South Koreans would have responsibility to take care of the aftermath.

I am telling you that it is 10 weeks tops with no nukes before it is a clean up operation. For crying out loud, you could STARVE them out while just holding the line if you wanted to be PC as long as China agreed.

Without nukes or China, fatboy is a paper tiger. Oh yes, we are going to lose people, and that is a national shame. But this would not be a war for the benefit of others, this would be a war for ourselves. Our soldiers would not be dying for Iraq, or anyone else, but rather protection of their country.

Does that make it right? No! No war right! But we are NOT the ones saying we are going to kill them ASAP after we get a delivery system, that is what they are telling us. We could have delivered them a nuke long, long, long, ago; and in fact plopped one in their lap during the Korean war, which we did not! Therefore, there may be no GOOD war, but this is a war of self preservation, along with self determination. If the NK wants FATBOY to run them fine, let them! But, if he wants to kill you, or me, or any other American, that is exactly why WE pay taxes for our military, isn't it!

I'm advocating a preemptive nuclear strike to destroy NK's ability to fight a war. This would mean destroying both its military infrastructure and its supporting civilian infrastructure. That's a shocking thing to say, but consider this, in an all out war, it is estimated 1,000,000 people would die within the first 24 hours and millions more would die as the war dragged on. The civilian infrastructures on both sides would be quickly devastated even in a conventional war and the North, always short on food, would begin to allocate its remaining food supplies to the military, leaving the civilians to starve. As the war dragged on, the combined death tolls and damage to infrastructure would approach those of a nuclear attack, but with two differences, most of it would be in the North and the war would be over before the US government would be pressured to sign a cease fire, leaving the NK nuclear threat intact. A preemptive nuclear strike along with a back channel message that any retaliation against the US or its allies would result in the immediate destruction of the rest of NK would immediately end the NK nuclear threat and the final tally of death and destruction would likely be only marginally different from an extended conventional war.

 

[toomuchtime_]

A missile attack on NK probably means that Seoul is toast.

Under estimating North Korea is a big mistake. You can bomb them to hell and back and the only way you will beat them is troops on the ground. They have a huge military for the size of the country and practically nothing else. Their GDP is 25 billion. By comparison the US spends three times that on just food stamps and 50 times that on defense. NK starves the people to feed the army. The population is 24 million and 10% are either active duty, about 1.1 million, in the reserves, or civilians working for the military. It is a military state which has been at war with the United States for over 60 years. In the Korean War the US and it's allies had a military force of a million troops in the war and after nearly 3 years, we were only able to negotiated an armistice put no peace treaty.

"You can bomb them to hell and back and the only way you will beat them is troops on the ground."

There would be 0 support for putting Western nations troops on the ground in North Korea, if it came to that the Chinese would have to go in and put troops on the ground.

But this is of course the same with nearly all war situations, no war has ever been won from the air, you always have to put ground troops in.

I will tell you both this-----------> if the Chinese nod yes under a deal..............if Trump and his generals believe there is an 80% chance they can take out the nukes in a 1st strike, then the decision is done if a peaceful solution is not forthcoming. Without their nukes and Chinese help, the NK is done!

If those things are not in place, then it will drag to the very last minute before a decision is made. Again I say, pray for wisdom on this one, because it is going to shape your life if they choose wrong throughout your lifetime, and probably all of your immediate family too.

Both sides have been preparing for war for so long that a first strike would have to take out far more then NK's nuclear program to prevent a Korean war that would devastate both countries killing millions. If we launch a preemptive strike against NK, we must aim to take out much more than just their nuclear program; we must take out their whole ability to make war and that will mean most of the infrastructure of the country, military and civilian would have to be destroyed.

In a modern war, it is apparent no country can stand against us without a nuke. The only way we could lose a war, is by not being committed to win it. How committed would the United States be? That is a political question!

99 times out of 100, before war, we begin to see the reasons, propaganda, excuses, reasoning, theories, of why we must fight this war. If this war is without nukes, (please God) and the Koreas were to be united, then the South Koreans would have responsibility to take care of the aftermath.

I am telling you that it is 10 weeks tops with no nukes before it is a clean up operation. For crying out loud, you could STARVE them out while just holding the line if you wanted to be PC as long as China agreed.

Without nukes or China, fatboy is a paper tiger. Oh yes, we are going to lose people, and that is a national shame. But this would not be a war for the benefit of others, this would be a war for ourselves. Our soldiers would not be dying for Iraq, or anyone else, but rather protection of their country.

Does that make it right? No! No war right! But we are NOT the ones saying we are going to kill them ASAP after we get a delivery system, that is what they are telling us. We could have delivered them a nuke long, long, long, ago; and in fact plopped one in their lap during the Korean war, which we did not! Therefore, there may be no GOOD war, but this is a war of self preservation, along with self determination. If the NK wants FATBOY to run them fine, let them! But, if he wants to kill you, or me, or any other American, that is exactly why WE pay taxes for our military, isn't it!

A military victory is one thing...but there are much wider issues to be considered.
Iraq is the shining example.

A shining example of what?

 

[toomuchtime_]

The word is that Japan is making plans to evacuate it's citizens that are in South Korea.

Japan discusses how to evacuate citizens from South Korea if crisis hits

Japan is also preparing to do another evacuation drill itself.

Japan to conduct evacuation drill to prepare for North Korea missiles

Glad to hear it. Seoul should be doing the same.

Strangely most of South Korea doesn't seem to be freaking out, experts also say that Seoul opposes any unilateral action from America.

Seoul to oppose unilateral US action

"WASHINGTON D.C. ― South Korea will oppose any unilateral U.S. military action against North Korea which U.S. President Donald Trump says is "looking for trouble," according to leading U.S. experts.

While Trump has said the U.S. will solve the problem of North Korea on its own unless China helps, analysts said that any U.S. action against the North should be based on a prior agreement with Seoul.

"Seoul will oppose any unilateral military action plan by the United States against North Korea," said Scott Snyder, director of the Program on US-Korea Policy at the Council of Foreign Relations, in a recent interview with the Medill News Service."

Here's the rest of the article.

'Seoul to oppose unilateral US action'

Of course they oppose unilateral action by the U.S. We know Seoul will be targeted immediately, before our bombs can stop him, apparently. China doesn't want a mess of NK refugees, either. So they push for negotiations. I have nothing at all against trying, and I hope Trump is listening. If we do something without their blessing, it is going to cause quite the mess once the fun part of blowing holes in NK is over.

Yeah, no shit. I can see the South Koreans now:

"HEY. We're right here. WE'RE RIGHT HERE. They've got a bunch of ******* CANNONS pointed at us and these people are not exactly STABLE. If you like your ******* Samsung teevees and cell phones, you had better REMEMBER that we're RIGHT ******* HERE."
.

Glad to hear it. Seoul should be doing the same.

Strangely most of South Korea doesn't seem to be freaking out, experts also say that Seoul opposes any unilateral action from America.

Seoul to oppose unilateral US action

"WASHINGTON D.C. ― South Korea will oppose any unilateral U.S. military action against North Korea which U.S. President Donald Trump says is "looking for trouble," according to leading U.S. experts.

While Trump has said the U.S. will solve the problem of North Korea on its own unless China helps, analysts said that any U.S. action against the North should be based on a prior agreement with Seoul.

"Seoul will oppose any unilateral military action plan by the United States against North Korea," said Scott Snyder, director of the Program on US-Korea Policy at the Council of Foreign Relations, in a recent interview with the Medill News Service."

Here's the rest of the article.

'Seoul to oppose unilateral US action'

Of course they oppose unilateral action by the U.S. We know Seoul will be targeted immediately, before our bombs can stop him, apparently. China doesn't want a mess of NK refugees, either. So they push for negotiations. I have nothing at all against trying, and I hope Trump is listening. If we do something without their blessing, it is going to cause quite the mess once the fun part of blowing holes in NK is over.

A full blown war between the koreas would be a catastrophe costing millions of lives and leaving both countries devastated and unsettling the region. So if military force is to be used, which I strongly doubt, there would seem to be only two options, either launch surgical strikes that would take out key elements of NK's nuclear or missile programs or other high value targets or obliterate NK in a preemptive strike. I'm not sure the first option would have a desirable long term effect but the second option would settle the issue once and forever.

Everyone on this board needs to realize that NK has to be dealt with, before they have the means to deliver nukes to the West coast or you and your country is going to be held hostage. This mess was created by BOTH party's Presidents and; the only reason NK was not dealt with before by those Presidents was its cozy relationship with China. I have little doubt that most of the Presidents from EITHER party who held the office once the NK got close to a nuke would have done a preemptive strike of non-nuclear weapons were it not for the Chinese.

We now have a very short time before the NK can hit the West coast. The person on that button kills his uncles with artillery shells for show, and assassinates his 1/2 brother. You think he gives a damn about you, your children, or grandchildren; or even human life!

How many here do NOT want a peaceful solution to the problem? Can I see a show of hands!

That is what I thought, 99.9% of us want a peaceful solution. Much of this debate is misguided. It is not about we want, or do not want war; it is about if we are willing to let a person or regime like this have the capability of hitting the West coast with a nuke soon, and the rest of the country soon after. How far are you willing to go to stop him, or are you of the mindset that we shouldn't do a thing. And then, a week after NK has that missile with a nuke, Iran has it also since they are helping fund the research.

I urge everyone to understand the reality---------->this regime constantly insists it wants to kill YOU, because YOU are an American. Same with Iran. Do you actually believe that if their agents captured you, they would kiss you because you are a pacifist?

Like or hate Trump, he is going to have to deal with it, or very soon your life is going to change. How many of you were alive when Kennedy shut down the missiles in Cuba? Kids had to be taught how to hide under their desks in school, and the truth was, it was just for reassurance; they were DEAD if nukes flew in. Do you want that power in the FATBOY's hands? The Army, Navy, Air Force, and Marines will not be able to save you from a missile with a nuke on it, if it goes off in your city. Your children and grandchildren will cease to exist if it is near them, and you survive! What would be your answer then? How many of you would want to face life without either your children, or grandchildren........because FATBOY thinks he is invincible; even if we incinerated him and his regime in retaliation?

Peaceful solution? Yes! But only if it is really a solution instead of just kicking the can the last 2 feet to what is really the end of the road. For those of you who despise liberals, and those of you who despise Republicans; wait and see how you feel when FATBOY or IRAN tells you to poop, how high, and what color; or they are going to incinerate LA or San Fran! At that time, your carrier group means squat, cause they will start fueling their missiles, and our government will see it by satellite. That means, we either give them their way, or one or more of our cities are coming down.

So then, regardless of the way we must FORCE a solution, are you SURE you want to wait for 6 more months, or a year! Do you want an American President from ANY party have to make the decision to sacrifice one of our major cities to defeat these people? Because we all know, that America will not shoot off the 1st nuke. This means 1 of our cities; if not more will fall before we shut them down with a strike of our own. Which city are you willing to gamble with? That is the question of our time, and like or hate Trump, you better pray to your God for his infinite wisdom!

I don't disagree that we're probably reaching a critical time with NK, and that the window for a peaceful solution may be closing due to the ice cream-fueled madness of the fat kid. This is clearly one of those "there is no good solution" moments.

I have three concerns with what we're doing: First, Trump & Co may be deploying a perfectly reasonable strategy of squeezing him until he squeaks, but that usually only works on sane people - this kid could pretty easily lose his shit and take out South Korea & Japan just because we gave him the stink eye and it gave him a scary dream after a spicy meal. Second, Russia's reaction concerns me more than that of China. And third, while I have a certain natural faith in our military, NK may be set up militarily such that one sneeze from one SEAL at the wrong time could send the rockets a-flyin'.

And I'm even leaving out my general lack of warm & fuzzies for Trump in this whole equation...
.

I doubt the fat kid can make all these decisions without the support of the rest of the NK leadership, and it is likely there are sane people among the leadership support NK's sabre rattling as a calculated effort to discourage interference from the West or SK but who understand they would not survive another war with the US.

 

[JimBowie1958]

It takes every person on that sub to run it. Also, how would you get a nuclear weapon on a submarine of that size? They do not have large areas of unused space.

Remember, everything that goes on a submarine has to fit through hatches that are designed to be as small as possible. Remember, it is a 1940s era design.

The North Koreans have built some Romeo class subs and they have a 9,000 mile range, and I also think the NK are very capable of modifying the submarine for a specific purpose since they built the things. The design is based on an old Soviet design from the late 1950s that the Chinese got and then updated periodically.

The torpedo and mine sections (8 torp tubes and 14 torps and 28 mines) can be removed for example, then components shifted into these separate voids and a sizable room created. (sizable for a submarine, anyway).

These were built from kits from the Chicoms in the late 60s and early 70s, and North Korea is quite adept at copying and modifying older tech.

 

[Mac1958]

Glad to hear it. Seoul should be doing the same.

Strangely most of South Korea doesn't seem to be freaking out, experts also say that Seoul opposes any unilateral action from America.

Seoul to oppose unilateral US action

"WASHINGTON D.C. ― South Korea will oppose any unilateral U.S. military action against North Korea which U.S. President Donald Trump says is "looking for trouble," according to leading U.S. experts.

While Trump has said the U.S. will solve the problem of North Korea on its own unless China helps, analysts said that any U.S. action against the North should be based on a prior agreement with Seoul.

"Seoul will oppose any unilateral military action plan by the United States against North Korea," said Scott Snyder, director of the Program on US-Korea Policy at the Council of Foreign Relations, in a recent interview with the Medill News Service."

Here's the rest of the article.

'Seoul to oppose unilateral US action'

Of course they oppose unilateral action by the U.S. We know Seoul will be targeted immediately, before our bombs can stop him, apparently. China doesn't want a mess of NK refugees, either. So they push for negotiations. I have nothing at all against trying, and I hope Trump is listening. If we do something without their blessing, it is going to cause quite the mess once the fun part of blowing holes in NK is over.

Yeah, no shit. I can see the South Koreans now:

"HEY. We're right here. WE'RE RIGHT HERE. They've got a bunch of ******* CANNONS pointed at us and these people are not exactly STABLE. If you like your ******* Samsung teevees and cell phones, you had better REMEMBER that we're RIGHT ******* HERE."
.

Strangely most of South Korea doesn't seem to be freaking out, experts also say that Seoul opposes any unilateral action from America.

Seoul to oppose unilateral US action

"WASHINGTON D.C. ― South Korea will oppose any unilateral U.S. military action against North Korea which U.S. President Donald Trump says is "looking for trouble," according to leading U.S. experts.

While Trump has said the U.S. will solve the problem of North Korea on its own unless China helps, analysts said that any U.S. action against the North should be based on a prior agreement with Seoul.

"Seoul will oppose any unilateral military action plan by the United States against North Korea," said Scott Snyder, director of the Program on US-Korea Policy at the Council of Foreign Relations, in a recent interview with the Medill News Service."

Here's the rest of the article.

'Seoul to oppose unilateral US action'

Of course they oppose unilateral action by the U.S. We know Seoul will be targeted immediately, before our bombs can stop him, apparently. China doesn't want a mess of NK refugees, either. So they push for negotiations. I have nothing at all against trying, and I hope Trump is listening. If we do something without their blessing, it is going to cause quite the mess once the fun part of blowing holes in NK is over.

A full blown war between the koreas would be a catastrophe costing millions of lives and leaving both countries devastated and unsettling the region. So if military force is to be used, which I strongly doubt, there would seem to be only two options, either launch surgical strikes that would take out key elements of NK's nuclear or missile programs or other high value targets or obliterate NK in a preemptive strike. I'm not sure the first option would have a desirable long term effect but the second option would settle the issue once and forever.

Everyone on this board needs to realize that NK has to be dealt with, before they have the means to deliver nukes to the West coast or you and your country is going to be held hostage. This mess was created by BOTH party's Presidents and; the only reason NK was not dealt with before by those Presidents was its cozy relationship with China. I have little doubt that most of the Presidents from EITHER party who held the office once the NK got close to a nuke would have done a preemptive strike of non-nuclear weapons were it not for the Chinese.

We now have a very short time before the NK can hit the West coast. The person on that button kills his uncles with artillery shells for show, and assassinates his 1/2 brother. You think he gives a damn about you, your children, or grandchildren; or even human life!

How many here do NOT want a peaceful solution to the problem? Can I see a show of hands!

That is what I thought, 99.9% of us want a peaceful solution. Much of this debate is misguided. It is not about we want, or do not want war; it is about if we are willing to let a person or regime like this have the capability of hitting the West coast with a nuke soon, and the rest of the country soon after. How far are you willing to go to stop him, or are you of the mindset that we shouldn't do a thing. And then, a week after NK has that missile with a nuke, Iran has it also since they are helping fund the research.

I urge everyone to understand the reality---------->this regime constantly insists it wants to kill YOU, because YOU are an American. Same with Iran. Do you actually believe that if their agents captured you, they would kiss you because you are a pacifist?

Like or hate Trump, he is going to have to deal with it, or very soon your life is going to change. How many of you were alive when Kennedy shut down the missiles in Cuba? Kids had to be taught how to hide under their desks in school, and the truth was, it was just for reassurance; they were DEAD if nukes flew in. Do you want that power in the FATBOY's hands? The Army, Navy, Air Force, and Marines will not be able to save you from a missile with a nuke on it, if it goes off in your city. Your children and grandchildren will cease to exist if it is near them, and you survive! What would be your answer then? How many of you would want to face life without either your children, or grandchildren........because FATBOY thinks he is invincible; even if we incinerated him and his regime in retaliation?

Peaceful solution? Yes! But only if it is really a solution instead of just kicking the can the last 2 feet to what is really the end of the road. For those of you who despise liberals, and those of you who despise Republicans; wait and see how you feel when FATBOY or IRAN tells you to poop, how high, and what color; or they are going to incinerate LA or San Fran! At that time, your carrier group means squat, cause they will start fueling their missiles, and our government will see it by satellite. That means, we either give them their way, or one or more of our cities are coming down.

So then, regardless of the way we must FORCE a solution, are you SURE you want to wait for 6 more months, or a year! Do you want an American President from ANY party have to make the decision to sacrifice one of our major cities to defeat these people? Because we all know, that America will not shoot off the 1st nuke. This means 1 of our cities; if not more will fall before we shut them down with a strike of our own. Which city are you willing to gamble with? That is the question of our time, and like or hate Trump, you better pray to your God for his infinite wisdom!

I don't disagree that we're probably reaching a critical time with NK, and that the window for a peaceful solution may be closing due to the ice cream-fueled madness of the fat kid. This is clearly one of those "there is no good solution" moments.

I have three concerns with what we're doing: First, Trump & Co may be deploying a perfectly reasonable strategy of squeezing him until he squeaks, but that usually only works on sane people - this kid could pretty easily lose his shit and take out South Korea & Japan just because we gave him the stink eye and it gave him a scary dream after a spicy meal. Second, Russia's reaction concerns me more than that of China. And third, while I have a certain natural faith in our military, NK may be set up militarily such that one sneeze from one SEAL at the wrong time could send the rockets a-flyin'.

And I'm even leaving out my general lack of warm & fuzzies for Trump in this whole equation...
.

I doubt the fat kid can make all these decisions without the support of the rest of the NK leadership, and it is likely there are sane people among the leadership support NK's sabre rattling as a calculated effort to discourage interference from the West of SK but who understand they would not survive another war with the US.

So you're saying the kid actually has some real controls?

That would be nice.
.

 

[C_Clayton_Jones]

China has warned that "conflict could break out at any moment" as tension over North Korea increases.

Foreign Minister Wang Yi said if war occurred there could be no winner.

Mr Wang's comments come as the US voices increasing concern at North Korea's development of nuclear weapons and deploys a Navy carrier group off the Korean peninsula.

China fears North Korea-US conflict 'at any moment' - BBC News

Actually the entire world voices increasing concern at a reckless, belligerent Trump desperately attempting to attract attention from his administration’s failures and incompetence.

 

[Correll]

China has warned that "conflict could break out at any moment" as tension over North Korea increases.

Foreign Minister Wang Yi said if war occurred there could be no winner.

Mr Wang's comments come as the US voices increasing concern at North Korea's development of nuclear weapons and deploys a Navy carrier group off the Korean peninsula.

China fears North Korea-US conflict 'at any moment' - BBC News

So, why don't THEY do some thing to fix this?

 

[Correll]

China has warned that "conflict could break out at any moment" as tension over North Korea increases.

Foreign Minister Wang Yi said if war occurred there could be no winner.

Mr Wang's comments come as the US voices increasing concern at North Korea's development of nuclear weapons and deploys a Navy carrier group off the Korean peninsula.

China fears North Korea-US conflict 'at any moment' - BBC News

Actually the entire world voices increasing concern at a reckless, belligerent Trump desperately attempting to attract attention from his administration’s failures and incompetence.

Trump just got here. The rest of the world has had decades to fix the issue with NOrth Korea. WTF have they been doing? Playing with themselves?

 

[imawhosure]

China has warned that "conflict could break out at any moment" as tension over North Korea increases.

Foreign Minister Wang Yi said if war occurred there could be no winner.

Mr Wang's comments come as the US voices increasing concern at North Korea's development of nuclear weapons and deploys a Navy carrier group off the Korean peninsula.

China fears North Korea-US conflict 'at any moment' - BBC News

Actually the entire world voices increasing concern at a reckless, belligerent Trump desperately attempting to attract attention from his administration’s failures and incompetence.

Still playing American politics when we have a real problem. You are incompetent, irrelevant, and immaterial. Another to the list of ignore. He has no clue, and being as such, needs to be ignored while letting him post to himself. ADIOS puta!