Charter Vs. Public Schools

[dblack]

Every other sector of the American economy has benefited from the ability to compete and improve -- why not Education?

Just offhand, it's my observation that you really can't really apply free market concepts once government is in the mix. And trying to do so is doomed to fail.

 

[mgh80]

For the record I think most public school teachers agree that more students should be placed in alternative schools and don't like the one-size fits all goal of schools to push college/university almost exclusively.

For the record, most public school teachers support unions and politicians who don't like alternative schools.

-Just because you vote for somebody doesn't mean that agree with them on ever issue. It's next to impossible to get 2 individuals to agree with each other on every issue, why would it be any different with politicians they vote for?

-In my district that amount of teachers in the union is barely above 50%...and in the interest in disclosure I'm absolutely in the union because if some parent sues me for made up bullshit or over any little issue, they'll provide me with lawyers. I (unfortunately) am a member to cover my own ass-this doesn't mean I approve of everything they do. I think they do some good, and I think they do some bad. I don't think they're the amazing groups that liberals think they are...but I also don't think they're the boogeyman that the GOP has made them out to be either.

-MANY teachers don't vote Democrat. In my school it's probably a 60/40 split (I'm a part of the 40).

-The issue exists in red states and red districts as well, not just blue districts. The problem(s) with the system aren't a Democrat or Republic cause-but societal ones where everybody's special, everybody deserves ten "second chances" and every child will grow up to be a productive member of society. It's crap and deep down inside everybody knows it.

 

[Spare_change]

Every other sector of the American economy has benefited from the ability to compete and improve -- why not Education?

Just offhand, it's my observation that you really can't really apply free market concepts once government is in the mix. And trying to do so is doomed to fail.

10-4, good buddy.

 

[Spare_change]

That's because private schools don't have to accept every student who wishes to attend whereas public schools do. I've had plenty of students who would've been thrown out of a Christian school in 2 days flat (and have gotten most of them to succeed to varying degrees).

Tell yourself whatever rationalizations you need, fascist, to oppose educational freedom. Conversely, private schools often get students are you struggling in public schools. Maybe public schools should be kicking more kids out (to alternative education)? Yeah, it's outside your small mind to consider that private schools might do better with much less because they can do other things to improve education, other than kicking out punks.

I've been at both private and public schools. The "top" and "middle" of the road kids at public school are just as capable and well behaved as their private school peers. However when you crunch the numbers for both demographics, private schools don't deal with kids in gangs, getting arrested over the weekends, etc...and if they do they can simply dump those kids where? The public schools.

For the record I think most public school teachers agree that more students should be placed in alternative schools and don't like the one-size fits all goal of schools to push college/university almost exclusively.

It sounds like you have a problem with the actual system in place (which teachers have ZERO say in), and you really need to educate yourself on the topic at hand.

Just for clarification - the discussion was about charter vs. public schools, not private schools.

Both charter and public schools rely on government funding. Private schools, on the other hand, may or may not accept government funding. This is an advantage/disadvantage (depending on your point of view) for the private school.

 

[Spare_change]

For the record I think most public school teachers agree that more students should be placed in alternative schools and don't like the one-size fits all goal of schools to push college/university almost exclusively.

For the record, most public school teachers support unions and politicians who don't like alternative schools.

-Just because you vote for somebody doesn't mean that agree with them on ever issue. It's next to impossible to get 2 individuals to agree with each other on every issue, why would it be any different with politicians they vote for?

-In my district that amount of teachers in the union is barely above 50%...and in the interest in disclosure I'm absolutely in the union because if some parent sues me for made up bullshit or over any little issue, they'll provide me with lawyers. I (unfortunately) am a member to cover my own ass-this doesn't mean I approve of everything they do. I think they do some good, and I think they do some bad. I don't think they're the amazing groups that liberals think they are...but I also don't think they're the boogeyman that the GOP has made them out to be either.

-MANY teachers don't vote Democrat. In my school it's probably a 60/40 split (I'm a part of the 40).

-The issue exists in red states and red districts as well, not just blue districts. The problem(s) with the system aren't a Democrat or Republic cause-but societal ones where everybody's special, everybody deserves ten "second chances" and every child will grow up to be a productive member of society. It's crap and deep down inside everybody knows it.

i understand your need for protection , thus membership in the teachers' union. But, I think you will agree that the harm done by the teachers' unions, in toto, far exceed any benefits to anyone except its members.

 

[BulletProof]

-Just because you vote for somebody doesn't mean that agree with them on ever issue. It's next to impossible to get 2 individuals to agree with each other on every issue, why would it be any different with politicians they vote for?

-In my district that amount of teachers in the union is barely above 50%...and in the interest in disclosure I'm absolutely in the union because if some parent sues me for made up bullshit or over any little issue, they'll provide me with lawyers.

No part of the Democrat agenda includes making teaching easier. I see the liability thing, but it's not a big a danger as the union would have you believe. You're an agent of the school, the school is responsible for you and it's the school with the deep pockets. You can be potentially sued for anything in your life, but the union protection doesn't follow you out of the school.

 

[BulletProof]

Just offhand, it's my observation that you really can't really apply free market concepts once government is in the mix. And trying to do so is doomed to fail.

What I've read shows that public schools to improve with competition. Public school performance improves when vouchers or charter schools are introduced.

 

[Cecilie1200]

There are people all over the Internet Bitching & Moaning about the educational system. Various people have been complaining since the 60s. Plenty of talk and changes but what has improved?

The government still has an iron grip over public education, so nothing has improved.

Most Christian schools are pretty bad. They have shoe-string budgets and no scale of economy which means few well-educated and intelligent teachers and other things that money buys. Most Christians are pretty incompetent, anyway. Just look at their churches, their TV shows, their movies, their books - effeminate and kitschy. Christian schools try to copy public schools, just in a Christian-ish context. But, schools should be operated much differently.

But, in spite of the handicap, kids at Christian schools perform at least on par with public school students.

That's because private schools don't have to accept every student who wishes to attend whereas public schools do. I've had plenty of students who would've been thrown out of a Christian school in 2 days flat (and have gotten most of them to succeed to varying degrees).

Yeah, yeah, we keep hearing that excuse. Only problem is, there are a lot of charter schools that are performing as well as or better than public schools, and they DON'T get to pick and choose like private schools do.

So maybe there's another factor at work when public schools - not all of them, but too many - churn out students who can't read in job lots.

 

[Cecilie1200]

That's because private schools don't have to accept every student who wishes to attend whereas public schools do. I've had plenty of students who would've been thrown out of a Christian school in 2 days flat (and have gotten most of them to succeed to varying degrees).

Tell yourself whatever rationalizations you need, fascist, to oppose educational freedom. Conversely, private schools often get students are you struggling in public schools. Maybe public schools should be kicking more kids out (to alternative education)? Yeah, it's outside your small mind to consider that private schools might do better with much less because they can do other things to improve education, other than kicking out punks.

I've been at both private and public schools. The "top" and "middle" of the road kids at public school are just as capable and well behaved as their private school peers. However when you crunch the numbers for both demographics, private schools don't deal with kids in gangs, getting arrested over the weekends, etc...and if they do they can simply dump those kids where? The public schools.

For the record I think most public school teachers agree that more students should be placed in alternative schools and don't like the one-size fits all goal of schools to push college/university almost exclusively.

It sounds like you have a problem with the actual system in place (which teachers have ZERO say in), and you really need to educate yourself on the topic at hand.

You DO know there are both private and charter schools that exist specifically to deal with various types of problem students, right?

 

[mgh80]

There are people all over the Internet Bitching & Moaning about the educational system. Various people have been complaining since the 60s. Plenty of talk and changes but what has improved?

The government still has an iron grip over public education, so nothing has improved.

Most Christian schools are pretty bad. They have shoe-string budgets and no scale of economy which means few well-educated and intelligent teachers and other things that money buys. Most Christians are pretty incompetent, anyway. Just look at their churches, their TV shows, their movies, their books - effeminate and kitschy. Christian schools try to copy public schools, just in a Christian-ish context. But, schools should be operated much differently.

But, in spite of the handicap, kids at Christian schools perform at least on par with public school students.

That's because private schools don't have to accept every student who wishes to attend whereas public schools do. I've had plenty of students who would've been thrown out of a Christian school in 2 days flat (and have gotten most of them to succeed to varying degrees).

Yeah, yeah, we keep hearing that excuse. Only problem is, there are a lot of charter schools that are performing as well as or better than public schools, and they DON'T get to pick and choose like private schools do.

So maybe there's another factor at work when public schools - not all of them, but too many - churn out students who can't read in job lots.

Some charter schools are better than some (traditional) public schools and some (traditional) public schools are better than some charter, again it all depends on the situation that each school/student body is facing. They are not the miracle drug that so many want them to be-regardless of how badly they want them to be.

If I put you in front of a classroom comprised of 98% poverty, majority of the students being in the U.S. illegally, and many of your students being members of street gangs (such as the Latin Kings)...you could be the best teacher on the planet, but your raw numbers wont be as good as the crappy teacher teaching classes at the rich high performing school.

I've been in both situations and while there are pluses and minuses of both situations...at the end of the day having more parental involvement AND attendance among your students positively affects student grades more than anything else...and that's something that's out of the teacher's hands.

 

[mgh80]

That's because private schools don't have to accept every student who wishes to attend whereas public schools do. I've had plenty of students who would've been thrown out of a Christian school in 2 days flat (and have gotten most of them to succeed to varying degrees).

Tell yourself whatever rationalizations you need, fascist, to oppose educational freedom. Conversely, private schools often get students are you struggling in public schools. Maybe public schools should be kicking more kids out (to alternative education)? Yeah, it's outside your small mind to consider that private schools might do better with much less because they can do other things to improve education, other than kicking out punks.

I've been at both private and public schools. The "top" and "middle" of the road kids at public school are just as capable and well behaved as their private school peers. However when you crunch the numbers for both demographics, private schools don't deal with kids in gangs, getting arrested over the weekends, etc...and if they do they can simply dump those kids where? The public schools.

For the record I think most public school teachers agree that more students should be placed in alternative schools and don't like the one-size fits all goal of schools to push college/university almost exclusively.

It sounds like you have a problem with the actual system in place (which teachers have ZERO say in), and you really need to educate yourself on the topic at hand.

You DO know there are both private and charter schools that exist specifically to deal with various types of problem students, right?

Charter schools may not deny students due to problems (IEP's, 504's, ELL status, etc.), which would cause that student to attend a different school.

 

[Unkotare]

There are people all over the Internet Bitching & Moaning about the educational system. Various people have been complaining since the 60s. Plenty of talk and changes but what has improved?

The government still has an iron grip over public education, so nothing has improved.

Most Christian schools are pretty bad. They have shoe-string budgets and no scale of economy which means few well-educated and intelligent teachers and other things that money buys. Most Christians are pretty incompetent, anyway. Just look at their churches, their TV shows, their movies, their books - effeminate and kitschy. Christian schools try to copy public schools, just in a Christian-ish context. But, schools should be operated much differently.

But, in spite of the handicap, kids at Christian schools perform at least on par with public school students.

That's because private schools don't have to accept every student who wishes to attend whereas public schools do. I've had plenty of students who would've been thrown out of a Christian school in 2 days flat (and have gotten most of them to succeed to varying degrees).

Yeah, yeah, we keep hearing that excuse. Only problem is, there are a lot of charter schools that are performing as well as or better than public schools, and they DON'T get to pick and choose like private schools do.

So maybe there's another factor at work when public schools - not all of them, but too many - churn out students who can't read in job lots.

...

If I put you in front of a classroom comprised of 98% poverty, majority of the students being in the U.S. illegally, and many of your students being members of street gangs ....

Some teachers who are motivated to serve the communities of students who need the most help seek out such challenges. THAT'S teaching.

 

[mgh80]

There are people all over the Internet Bitching & Moaning about the educational system. Various people have been complaining since the 60s. Plenty of talk and changes but what has improved?

The government still has an iron grip over public education, so nothing has improved.

Most Christian schools are pretty bad. They have shoe-string budgets and no scale of economy which means few well-educated and intelligent teachers and other things that money buys. Most Christians are pretty incompetent, anyway. Just look at their churches, their TV shows, their movies, their books - effeminate and kitschy. Christian schools try to copy public schools, just in a Christian-ish context. But, schools should be operated much differently.

But, in spite of the handicap, kids at Christian schools perform at least on par with public school students.

That's because private schools don't have to accept every student who wishes to attend whereas public schools do. I've had plenty of students who would've been thrown out of a Christian school in 2 days flat (and have gotten most of them to succeed to varying degrees).

Yeah, yeah, we keep hearing that excuse. Only problem is, there are a lot of charter schools that are performing as well as or better than public schools, and they DON'T get to pick and choose like private schools do.

So maybe there's another factor at work when public schools - not all of them, but too many - churn out students who can't read in job lots.

...

If I put you in front of a classroom comprised of 98% poverty, majority of the students being in the U.S. illegally, and many of your students being members of street gangs ....

Some teachers who are motivated to serve the communities of students who need the most help seek out such challenges. THAT'S teaching.

Absolutely correct but completely irrelevant to my statement.

If you put a person with no training and no experienced (as the poster I was quoting) and put them into that situation-they're going to fail 99% of the time...hence the word "you".

 

[Cecilie1200]

There are people all over the Internet Bitching & Moaning about the educational system. Various people have been complaining since the 60s. Plenty of talk and changes but what has improved?

The government still has an iron grip over public education, so nothing has improved.

Most Christian schools are pretty bad. They have shoe-string budgets and no scale of economy which means few well-educated and intelligent teachers and other things that money buys. Most Christians are pretty incompetent, anyway. Just look at their churches, their TV shows, their movies, their books - effeminate and kitschy. Christian schools try to copy public schools, just in a Christian-ish context. But, schools should be operated much differently.

But, in spite of the handicap, kids at Christian schools perform at least on par with public school students.

That's because private schools don't have to accept every student who wishes to attend whereas public schools do. I've had plenty of students who would've been thrown out of a Christian school in 2 days flat (and have gotten most of them to succeed to varying degrees).

Yeah, yeah, we keep hearing that excuse. Only problem is, there are a lot of charter schools that are performing as well as or better than public schools, and they DON'T get to pick and choose like private schools do.

So maybe there's another factor at work when public schools - not all of them, but too many - churn out students who can't read in job lots.

Some charter schools are better than some (traditional) public schools and some (traditional) public schools are better than some charter, again it all depends on the situation that each school/student body is facing. They are not the miracle drug that so many want them to be-regardless of how badly they want them to be.

If I put you in front of a classroom comprised of 98% poverty, majority of the students being in the U.S. illegally, and many of your students being members of street gangs (such as the Latin Kings)...you could be the best teacher on the planet, but your raw numbers wont be as good as the crappy teacher teaching classes at the rich high performing school.

I've been in both situations and while there are pluses and minuses of both situations...at the end of the day having more parental involvement AND attendance among your students positively affects student grades more than anything else...and that's something that's out of the teacher's hands.

No one thinks they're a "miracle drug" because they're all wonderful. They think it because they allow the parents to shop around for the best school, rather than locking the child into one school, no matter how bad it sucks.

Are they going to fix every problem? No. But a solution doesn't have to be 100% perfect for it to be far and away better than the current situation. And this whole "appealing to the worst possible extreme" thing doesn't work with me. Citing "98% poverty, illegals, gangs" as though those are ALL schools, and ALL teachers face that, and therefore that excuses all the teachers who are NOT in that circumstance, and nevertheless producing pathetic results, just indicates to me that there are no good arguments, since you're resorting to a bullshit one.

 

[Cecilie1200]

That's because private schools don't have to accept every student who wishes to attend whereas public schools do. I've had plenty of students who would've been thrown out of a Christian school in 2 days flat (and have gotten most of them to succeed to varying degrees).

Tell yourself whatever rationalizations you need, fascist, to oppose educational freedom. Conversely, private schools often get students are you struggling in public schools. Maybe public schools should be kicking more kids out (to alternative education)? Yeah, it's outside your small mind to consider that private schools might do better with much less because they can do other things to improve education, other than kicking out punks.

I've been at both private and public schools. The "top" and "middle" of the road kids at public school are just as capable and well behaved as their private school peers. However when you crunch the numbers for both demographics, private schools don't deal with kids in gangs, getting arrested over the weekends, etc...and if they do they can simply dump those kids where? The public schools.

For the record I think most public school teachers agree that more students should be placed in alternative schools and don't like the one-size fits all goal of schools to push college/university almost exclusively.

It sounds like you have a problem with the actual system in place (which teachers have ZERO say in), and you really need to educate yourself on the topic at hand.

You DO know there are both private and charter schools that exist specifically to deal with various types of problem students, right?

Charter schools may not deny students due to problems (IEP's, 504's, ELL status, etc.), which would cause that student to attend a different school.

Which charter schools are YOU talking about? Surely you don't think all charter schools operate by the same rules everywhere.