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Capitalism seen doing 'more harm than good' in global survey

pknopp

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We found out that the government was torturing people.

Nobody is arguing for any pure system. Ours is NOT simply a capitalistic system. Ours is a mixture of capitalism and socialism.
Saying pure isn't relevant. There is no such thing as pure anything in this world. I understand the point you are making there.

But it still isn't relevant.

We can see even within our economy, the difference between the socialized aspects, and the capitalist aspects. The difference between private pay-for-service schools, and public schools. The difference between private pay-for-service health care clinics, and the public gov-care ones. The difference between private retirement homes, and gov-retirement homes.

We can even look at more generally, the profitable retirement plans that yield good returns, and social security, which results in object poverty, and is going broke.
It isn't going broke. The retirement plans are only solvent because the taxpayers bailed them out.

Over and over within our own economy, we can see capitalism works, and socialism fails.

You can see this play out in nearly every single aspect of our society.

I watched a documentary about this emergency response center, where they were moving bottled water, electric generators, medical supplies and more into surrounding warehouses, when Katrina was about to hit. Of course that center was run by Walmart, while FEMA wasn't there for months. Or how a company had hired over a 100 people specifically to fan out with GPS systems, and mapping software to locate each and every single house in the disaster zone, and give a damage assessment. They had this setup 4 days before the hurricane hit. Of course this was run by an insurance company, which was getting reports of damaged houses, before the owners even called in. Meanwhile FEMA wasn't there for almost a year.

Every single time, Capitalism wins, and socialism loses. Yeah, it's not a pure system... and it's those impure parts that are having all the problems.
Bail outs.
Ireland bailed no one out. Everyone's retirement in Ireland did not go insolvent.
Wow!!! Really??? We were told we had to bail out the banks or it was going to be worse than the great depression. Are you saying we were lied to?

We really didn't have to bail out Wall Street?

How about 10 years and counting of QE?

That isn't even logical. Are you a moron? How does my stock in Apple computer, go insolvent if the government doesn't give money to some wealthy guy who lost money on Countrywide Financial?
You tell me. That is what the capitalists told us. Did they lie? Why was Trump insisting on more QE and lower interest rates?

Are you retarded?

Bailouts did not stop Countrywide Financial from going out of business, absorbed into BOA, and nor did bailouts allow Walmart to be profitable.

Dumb argument.
It wasn't my argument. I argued to do nothing.
Yeah of course not. Why would we ever need to bailout failing companies? Milton Friedman was famous for saying that capitalism is a profit and loss system. Profit encourages risk taking, and loss encourages prudence.

You can't socialize the loss, and have capitalism. There was never a need to bailout the banks. We didn't bailout Lehman Brothers, and that was the biggest private failure of the entire crash. What happened when Lehman wasn't bailed out?........ they went bankrupt. The assets were sold off, the company was closed. Life went on. Nothing bad happened.... except to the investors who foolishly gave Lehman their money, and then only got... if I remember right 60 cents on the dollars. So they still got most of their money back, and why shouldn't investors lose money when they make bad investments?

The whole thing was a bunch of politicians, buying votes with tax money. I was against it from the start. The Tea Party was a conservative movement against exactly this. Even the Conservative Caucus in the house, proposed a non-bailout alternative, that would have allowed banks to bail out each other, without tax money.

That is what the capitalists told us.

Wrong. That is what government, and business people told you. Why are you listening to business people? What did you expect that banks to say? How dumb is that.

Look, if I want to get paid to not work... and you are in government.... am I going to tell you "if you don't fund welfare and food stamps..... then I'll get a job, and have to feed my kids myself!" or am I going to tell you "Thousands will die, my children will starve, and the nation will collapse!"

Even if a CEO of a company might privately believe that Capitalism is the best system, if his company is tanking, and he's facing bankruptcy... is he going to say "Yeah if you don't bail me out.... Well I'll have to find another job, and sell my stuff" or is he going to say "If you don't bail me out, the economy will crash, and it will spell doom for the country!"

Capitalists like Milton Freidman, and economists from the Library of Economics and Liberty, the Mises Institute, and numerous other proponents of Capitalism.... none of them were saying the economy would crash if we didn't bail them out. I can't think of a respect capitalist anywhere, meaning a person who promoted Capitalism.... not one that supported the bailouts.

Only business people, in the banking system supported the bailout.... again... why would you ever believe anything someone who stands to benefit from the policy would say?

Just like if we planned to cut welfare, why would you ever go talk to a welfare recipient? Or Medicare, or Social Security, or Food stamps, or public housing?

Just absolutely stupid.
So in taking the long way around we agree. We do not practice capitalism. We practice at best crony capitalism propped up with Socialist programs.

With that agreed upon there are two positions for me to take. If we actually wanted to practice actual capitalism that would be great. No bailing out failed businesses. No being forced to get permission from the government to trade with your partners. No Federal Reserve trying to control it all.

That is never going to happen but people are going to pretend we are a capitalist society. With that being the case I am going to do all I can to see that everything doesn't get dumped on the poor.
 

Andylusion

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Saying pure isn't relevant. There is no such thing as pure anything in this world. I understand the point you are making there.

But it still isn't relevant.

We can see even within our economy, the difference between the socialized aspects, and the capitalist aspects. The difference between private pay-for-service schools, and public schools. The difference between private pay-for-service health care clinics, and the public gov-care ones. The difference between private retirement homes, and gov-retirement homes.

We can even look at more generally, the profitable retirement plans that yield good returns, and social security, which results in object poverty, and is going broke.
It isn't going broke. The retirement plans are only solvent because the taxpayers bailed them out.

Over and over within our own economy, we can see capitalism works, and socialism fails.

You can see this play out in nearly every single aspect of our society.

I watched a documentary about this emergency response center, where they were moving bottled water, electric generators, medical supplies and more into surrounding warehouses, when Katrina was about to hit. Of course that center was run by Walmart, while FEMA wasn't there for months. Or how a company had hired over a 100 people specifically to fan out with GPS systems, and mapping software to locate each and every single house in the disaster zone, and give a damage assessment. They had this setup 4 days before the hurricane hit. Of course this was run by an insurance company, which was getting reports of damaged houses, before the owners even called in. Meanwhile FEMA wasn't there for almost a year.

Every single time, Capitalism wins, and socialism loses. Yeah, it's not a pure system... and it's those impure parts that are having all the problems.
Bail outs.
Ireland bailed no one out. Everyone's retirement in Ireland did not go insolvent.
Wow!!! Really??? We were told we had to bail out the banks or it was going to be worse than the great depression. Are you saying we were lied to?

We really didn't have to bail out Wall Street?

How about 10 years and counting of QE?

That isn't even logical. Are you a moron? How does my stock in Apple computer, go insolvent if the government doesn't give money to some wealthy guy who lost money on Countrywide Financial?
You tell me. That is what the capitalists told us. Did they lie? Why was Trump insisting on more QE and lower interest rates?

Are you retarded?

Bailouts did not stop Countrywide Financial from going out of business, absorbed into BOA, and nor did bailouts allow Walmart to be profitable.

Dumb argument.
It wasn't my argument. I argued to do nothing.
Yeah of course not. Why would we ever need to bailout failing companies? Milton Friedman was famous for saying that capitalism is a profit and loss system. Profit encourages risk taking, and loss encourages prudence.

You can't socialize the loss, and have capitalism. There was never a need to bailout the banks. We didn't bailout Lehman Brothers, and that was the biggest private failure of the entire crash. What happened when Lehman wasn't bailed out?........ they went bankrupt. The assets were sold off, the company was closed. Life went on. Nothing bad happened.... except to the investors who foolishly gave Lehman their money, and then only got... if I remember right 60 cents on the dollars. So they still got most of their money back, and why shouldn't investors lose money when they make bad investments?

The whole thing was a bunch of politicians, buying votes with tax money. I was against it from the start. The Tea Party was a conservative movement against exactly this. Even the Conservative Caucus in the house, proposed a non-bailout alternative, that would have allowed banks to bail out each other, without tax money.

That is what the capitalists told us.

Wrong. That is what government, and business people told you. Why are you listening to business people? What did you expect that banks to say? How dumb is that.

Look, if I want to get paid to not work... and you are in government.... am I going to tell you "if you don't fund welfare and food stamps..... then I'll get a job, and have to feed my kids myself!" or am I going to tell you "Thousands will die, my children will starve, and the nation will collapse!"

Even if a CEO of a company might privately believe that Capitalism is the best system, if his company is tanking, and he's facing bankruptcy... is he going to say "Yeah if you don't bail me out.... Well I'll have to find another job, and sell my stuff" or is he going to say "If you don't bail me out, the economy will crash, and it will spell doom for the country!"

Capitalists like Milton Freidman, and economists from the Library of Economics and Liberty, the Mises Institute, and numerous other proponents of Capitalism.... none of them were saying the economy would crash if we didn't bail them out. I can't think of a respect capitalist anywhere, meaning a person who promoted Capitalism.... not one that supported the bailouts.

Only business people, in the banking system supported the bailout.... again... why would you ever believe anything someone who stands to benefit from the policy would say?

Just like if we planned to cut welfare, why would you ever go talk to a welfare recipient? Or Medicare, or Social Security, or Food stamps, or public housing?

Just absolutely stupid.
So in taking the long way around we agree. We do not practice capitalism. We practice at best crony capitalism propped up with Socialist programs.

With that agreed upon there are two positions for me to take. If we actually wanted to practice actual capitalism that would be great. No bailing out failed businesses. No being forced to get permission from the government to trade with your partners. No Federal Reserve trying to control it all.

That is never going to happen but people are going to pretend we are a capitalist society. With that being the case I am going to do all I can to see that everything doesn't get dumped on the poor.
Nothing I said, anywhere in my entire post did I suggest, by any stretch of the most wild or incoherent imagination, that we did not practice capitalism.

No bailing out failed businesses.

Of course not. You seem to be implying that because we have deviated from Capitalism, that this means we do not practice Capitalism. That is ridiculous. That is like saying because we have murder in this country, that we don't practice a right to life.

No being forced to get permission from the government to trade with your partners.

Agreed.

No Federal Reserve trying to control it all.

Impossible. While ideals would be great, it is not possible to have a system without a Federal Reserve. Simply impossible. Aiming for what is impossible, will discredit attempts to achieve what is possible.

That is never going to happen but people are going to pretend we are a capitalist society. With that being the case I am going to do all I can to see that everything doesn't get dumped on the poor

We do live in a capitalist society. End of story. End of debate. I can open my own business today, and if successful, I could end up a multi-millionaire. In fact, I could simply save and invest my capital, even with a low income, and become a multi-millionaire. My parents are millionaires, because they saved and invested capital their whole lives.

As far as seeing that everything does not get dumped on the poor, what does this mean? The poor are poor, because they make choices. The rich are rich, because they make choices.

When someone makes bad choices in life the lead them to be poor, it's not you dumping on them.... it is them reaping the results of their choices.

You will never change this. Never. You can't force people to be wise. Thus you can not avoid people reaping poverty for bad choices.
 

Markle

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No doubt those who are pushing socialism appreciate the right wing's abject indifference to our increasing wealth disparities.
In my lifetime, Bill Gates and Jeff Bezos acquired nearly a QUARTER OF A TRILLION DOLLARS.

Specifically, how much money did that acquisition take out of your pocket? How much richer, what part of that quarter of a trillion dollars would be in your pocket today?
 

Mac1958

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Trumpism is ugly, and Leftism is absurd
No doubt those who are pushing socialism appreciate the right wing's abject indifference to our increasing wealth disparities.
In my lifetime, Bill Gates and Jeff Bezos acquired nearly a QUARTER OF A TRILLION DOLLARS.

Specifically, how much money did that acquisition take out of your pocket? How much richer, what part of that quarter of a trillion dollars would be in your pocket today?
Don't know, don't care.

Millions do, however, and they vote. And mocking them doesn't help.
.
 

daveman

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No doubt those who are pushing socialism appreciate the right wing's abject indifference to our increasing wealth disparities.
In my lifetime, Bill Gates and Jeff Bezos acquired nearly a QUARTER OF A TRILLION DOLLARS.

Specifically, how much money did that acquisition take out of your pocket? How much richer, what part of that quarter of a trillion dollars would be in your pocket today?
Don't know, don't care.

Millions do, however, and they vote. And mocking them doesn't help.
.
If they want me to vote with them, however, they need to be able to rationally explain their position.

NOTE: "GIBS ME DAT" is not a rational explanation.
 

bripat9643

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It's hard to argue this one way or another as Capitalism isn't really practiced anywhere.
What are you smoking.

I was reading about a guy in China, that under communism, was starving in one of their farming camps. After liberalization, he started getting corrugated iron sheets from landfills, and selling them to the poor people as roofing material. He now runs a billion dollar roofing company, and is a billionaire in China.

Do you call that socialist or capitalist? If that isn't capitalist, then I don't know what you would call it.
Capitalism.
 

bripat9643

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It's hard to argue this one way or another as Capitalism isn't really practiced anywhere.
What are you smoking.

I was reading about a guy in China, that under communism, was starving in one of their farming camps. After liberalization, he started getting corrugated iron sheets from landfills, and selling them to the poor people as roofing material. He now runs a billion dollar roofing company, and is a billionaire in China.

Do you call that socialist or capitalist? If that isn't capitalist, then I don't know what you would call it.
You read.......lol. I read that Trump bailed out farmers. Where do we find this in Capitalism?
We don't.... and I never suggested that Trump was an ideologue, nor a champion of capitalist ideals. One of the primary reason I did not vote for Trump in 2016, is because I thought for sure he'd be pushing government run health care, and more control over the market.

So.... you fail. I don't support any bailouts anywhere. The conservatives didn't support bank bailouts in 2009 either.

Conservative Republicans offer bailout alternative

In fact, the Tea Party which was generally a conservative movement, was a backlash against the bailouts.

Capitalism does not involve government either paying for, or bailout out, business. If that happens, it isn't capitalism.
As I've noted many times, we are not a nation that runs on Capitalism.
Every nation runs on capitalism, fool.
 

pknopp

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Nothing I said, anywhere in my entire post did I suggest, by any stretch of the most wild or incoherent imagination, that we did not practice capitalism.

No bailing out failed businesses.

Of course not. You seem to be implying that because we have deviated from Capitalism, that this means we do not practice Capitalism. That is ridiculous. That is like saying because we have murder in this country, that we don't practice a right to life.
Fail. If someone is a murderer they do not respect a right to life. Your argument is that because someone else murders someone that does not mean you do not respect a right to life. That would be correct BUT it is the government breaking nearly every aspect of capitalism so it can not be operating on capitalism. It's operating on something else.

No being forced to get permission from the government to trade with your partners.
Agreed.

No Federal Reserve trying to control it all.

Impossible. While ideals would be great, it is not possible to have a system without a Federal Reserve. Simply impossible. Aiming for what is impossible, will discredit attempts to achieve what is possible.
Then we are operating on something other than Capitalism. The Federal Reserve is a system far closer to Socialism.

That is never going to happen but people are going to pretend we are a capitalist society. With that being the case I am going to do all I can to see that everything doesn't get dumped on the poor
We do live in a capitalist society. End of story. End of debate. I can open my own business today, and if successful, I could end up a multi-millionaire. In fact, I could simply save and invest my capital, even with a low income, and become a multi-millionaire. My parents are millionaires, because they saved and invested capital their whole lives.
People in Scandinavian countries that people condemn as socialist nations can't open their own business and be a success?

As far as seeing that everything does not get dumped on the poor, what does this mean? The poor are poor, because they make choices. The rich are rich, because they make choices.
What choices did Trump make to make himself rich? Trump is rich based upon what vagina he came out of. Trump failed and failed only to have daddy bail him out. Trump got banks to go along based upon who his daddy was. Can just anyone make that choice?

When someone makes bad choices in life the lead them to be poor, it's not you dumping on them.... it is them reaping the results of their choices.

You will never change this. Never. You can't force people to be wise. Thus you can not avoid people reaping poverty for bad choices.
Bankers are rich beyond rich but they failed. They failed but yet the government gave them billions and billions more. Right now the Federal Reserve still is. How much of the billions and billions being pumped is going to the country as a whole? Why should only a small percentage get the largest portion of this while the rest get very little?

How exactly is that capitalism?
 

bripat9643

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"Capitalism" is not the problem. "Socialism" is not a problem. Greed, avarice, egoism and extreme materialism are the problem(s).
If that's the case, then there is no solution. Do you expect humans to change their stripes?

Any economic system would work where those participating did so in a sense of familial caring.
Wrong. If you had a nation populated by angels, socialism still wouldn't work.

When it is recognized that we are all related and that what is good for 'you' is good for 'me', vast problems will evaporate.
Capitalism is good for you and good for me.

If that is never recognized, all the problems will be resolved by our species' disappearance.
Socialism is what will cause our species to disappear.
 

pknopp

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No doubt those who are pushing socialism appreciate the right wing's abject indifference to our increasing wealth disparities.
In my lifetime, Bill Gates and Jeff Bezos acquired nearly a QUARTER OF A TRILLION DOLLARS.

Specifically, how much money did that acquisition take out of your pocket? How much richer, what part of that quarter of a trillion dollars would be in your pocket today?
Don't know, don't care.

Millions do, however, and they vote. And mocking them doesn't help.
.
If they want me to vote with them, however, they need to be able to rationally explain their position.

NOTE: "GIBS ME DAT" is not a rational explanation.
That's what Wall Street demanded when the Reserve started raising rates. Trump yelled that they needed to stop. Trump called for negative rates. This harms many but those who already have screamed GIVE US MORE!!!!!
 

pknopp

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It's hard to argue this one way or another as Capitalism isn't really practiced anywhere.
What are you smoking.

I was reading about a guy in China, that under communism, was starving in one of their farming camps. After liberalization, he started getting corrugated iron sheets from landfills, and selling them to the poor people as roofing material. He now runs a billion dollar roofing company, and is a billionaire in China.

Do you call that socialist or capitalist? If that isn't capitalist, then I don't know what you would call it.
You read.......lol. I read that Trump bailed out farmers. Where do we find this in Capitalism?
We don't.... and I never suggested that Trump was an ideologue, nor a champion of capitalist ideals. One of the primary reason I did not vote for Trump in 2016, is because I thought for sure he'd be pushing government run health care, and more control over the market.

So.... you fail. I don't support any bailouts anywhere. The conservatives didn't support bank bailouts in 2009 either.

Conservative Republicans offer bailout alternative

In fact, the Tea Party which was generally a conservative movement, was a backlash against the bailouts.

Capitalism does not involve government either paying for, or bailout out, business. If that happens, it isn't capitalism.
As I've noted many times, we are not a nation that runs on Capitalism.
Every nation runs on capitalism, fool.
Capitalists do not bail out a business that failed.
 

bripat9643

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What are you smoking.

I was reading about a guy in China, that under communism, was starving in one of their farming camps. After liberalization, he started getting corrugated iron sheets from landfills, and selling them to the poor people as roofing material. He now runs a billion dollar roofing company, and is a billionaire in China.

Do you call that socialist or capitalist? If that isn't capitalist, then I don't know what you would call it.
You read.......lol. I read that Trump bailed out farmers. Where do we find this in Capitalism?
We don't.... and I never suggested that Trump was an ideologue, nor a champion of capitalist ideals. One of the primary reason I did not vote for Trump in 2016, is because I thought for sure he'd be pushing government run health care, and more control over the market.

So.... you fail. I don't support any bailouts anywhere. The conservatives didn't support bank bailouts in 2009 either.

Conservative Republicans offer bailout alternative

In fact, the Tea Party which was generally a conservative movement, was a backlash against the bailouts.

Capitalism does not involve government either paying for, or bailout out, business. If that happens, it isn't capitalism.
As I've noted many times, we are not a nation that runs on Capitalism.
Every nation runs on capitalism, fool.
Capitalists do not bail out a business that failed.
That's true. Why would anyone want to do that other than corrupt politicians?
 

pknopp

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You read.......lol. I read that Trump bailed out farmers. Where do we find this in Capitalism?
We don't.... and I never suggested that Trump was an ideologue, nor a champion of capitalist ideals. One of the primary reason I did not vote for Trump in 2016, is because I thought for sure he'd be pushing government run health care, and more control over the market.

So.... you fail. I don't support any bailouts anywhere. The conservatives didn't support bank bailouts in 2009 either.

Conservative Republicans offer bailout alternative

In fact, the Tea Party which was generally a conservative movement, was a backlash against the bailouts.

Capitalism does not involve government either paying for, or bailout out, business. If that happens, it isn't capitalism.
As I've noted many times, we are not a nation that runs on Capitalism.
Every nation runs on capitalism, fool.
Capitalists do not bail out a business that failed.
That's true. Why would anyone want to do that other than corrupt politicians?
I suppose we need to ask Trump that. Trump the "capitalist".
 

bripat9643

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We don't.... and I never suggested that Trump was an ideologue, nor a champion of capitalist ideals. One of the primary reason I did not vote for Trump in 2016, is because I thought for sure he'd be pushing government run health care, and more control over the market.

So.... you fail. I don't support any bailouts anywhere. The conservatives didn't support bank bailouts in 2009 either.

Conservative Republicans offer bailout alternative

In fact, the Tea Party which was generally a conservative movement, was a backlash against the bailouts.

Capitalism does not involve government either paying for, or bailout out, business. If that happens, it isn't capitalism.
As I've noted many times, we are not a nation that runs on Capitalism.
Every nation runs on capitalism, fool.
Capitalists do not bail out a business that failed.
That's true. Why would anyone want to do that other than corrupt politicians?
I suppose we need to ask Trump that. Trump the "capitalist".
What businesses has Trump bailed out?
 

pknopp

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As I've noted many times, we are not a nation that runs on Capitalism.
Every nation runs on capitalism, fool.
Capitalists do not bail out a business that failed.
That's true. Why would anyone want to do that other than corrupt politicians?
I suppose we need to ask Trump that. Trump the "capitalist".
What businesses has Trump bailed out?
Why do you even bother replying?
 

bripat9643

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Every nation runs on capitalism, fool.
Capitalists do not bail out a business that failed.
That's true. Why would anyone want to do that other than corrupt politicians?
I suppose we need to ask Trump that. Trump the "capitalist".
What businesses has Trump bailed out?
Why do you even bother replying?
I love watching you squirm when you can't answer a question.

Now answer the question: What businesses has Trump bailed out?
 

pknopp

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Capitalists do not bail out a business that failed.
That's true. Why would anyone want to do that other than corrupt politicians?
I suppose we need to ask Trump that. Trump the "capitalist".
What businesses has Trump bailed out?
Why do you even bother replying?
I love watching you squirm when you can't answer a question.

Now answer the question: What businesses has Trump bailed out?
You are fully aware of this already.

America’s farm safety net is broken. Instead of helping small farmers that have been hurt by the Trump administration’s trade war, Trump’s Agriculture Department is wantonly distributing billions of taxpayer dollars to the largest and wealthiest farms.’

Trump vowed to help small farmers, but here’s where the aid is really going
 

DOTR

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Capitalism seen doing 'more harm than good' in global survey
Capitalism seen doing 'more harm than good' in global survey

Nearly 1.1 billion fewer people are living in extreme poverty than in 1990.
In 2015, 736 million people lived on less than $1.90 a day, down from 1.85 billion in 1990.
Capitalism seen doing 'more harm than good' in global survey

So not only are there less people in extreme poverty but there are more
In 1990 there were 5,327,231,041 people... https://www.populationpyramid.net/world/1990/
In 2019 there were 7,713,468,205 people... https://www.populationpyramid.net/world/2019/

Facts are there are 1.1 billion fewer people in poverty even though there is 44% more people!

Another poll...by the same pollsters. Do <<<they>>> still think this will work?
 

DOTR

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That's true. Why would anyone want to do that other than corrupt politicians?
I suppose we need to ask Trump that. Trump the "capitalist".
What businesses has Trump bailed out?
Why do you even bother replying?
I love watching you squirm when you can't answer a question.

Now answer the question: What businesses has Trump bailed out?
You are fully aware of this already.

America’s farm safety net is broken. Instead of helping small farmers that have been hurt by the Trump administration’s trade war, Trump’s Agriculture Department is wantonly distributing billions of taxpayer dollars to the largest and wealthiest farms.’

Trump vowed to help small farmers, but here’s where the aid is really going
All you communists love the financial press and their leftist agenda. Ever consider how silly that is?
 

Mac1958

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Trumpism is ugly, and Leftism is absurd
We do not practice capitalism. We practice at best crony capitalism propped up with Socialist programs.
And, bingo.

We've somehow managed to combine simplistic, mindless libertarianism with we'll-bail-you-out socialism. The libertarians think regulation is evil, and then we have to bail out the big guys because they took advantage of a lack of regulation. Holy crap.

Meanwhile, wealth disparity increases.

This is what happens when ideology and jingoism replace informed critical thinking. We've perverted capitalism, and we're serving it all up to the socialists on a silver platter. Fucking brilliant.
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